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In Which Ileosa Arabasti Grows Savvy to the Conventions of her Genre
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Nifty.

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Anyway, we need to establish for this scene, if not for the thread, how much mental augmentation I have right now. 

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We're 97 rules in, so it'd be pretty weird for you to suddenly change your way of thinking. Probably just stick with whatever you were already assuming. 

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Well, at 12 Int and 7 Wis I'd typically say that most people would meet with more success if they put less stock in logic and more in intuition, inspiration, and spontaneity, because logic is inherently timid and fortune fawns for the brave, however, in the context of the broader conversation (as in some other contexts) I'd instead feel and say that by definition there's no good argument against "behaving logically," a phrase by which I mean doing whatever is most effective in pursuit of your aims while keeping within the constraint of pretending that the only things that matter to you are self-preservation and personal comfort and the number in your bank account, unless doing whatever is most effective in pursuit of your aims would require you to recognize that you and/or other people have emotions, in which case you should do whatever would be the most effective if only that weren't true. This isn't my considered position, to be clear, but it's what I think Aberian's is, which in my 12/7 mind is of a kind with being logical, and of course you can't directly argue against "logic" right after using the word as a synonym for "good idea," as that'd be too obviously self-defeating. 

If you boosted my Int to 19 and my Wis to 14 I'd still have plenty of deranged ideas about what constitutes "logic" and why it's situationally good or bad to possess (mostly bad, tbh, since there's no logical reason to like full plate), and I definitely wouldn't be so advanced along the path as to tell you that ultimate goals cannot themselves be logical or illogical and that reason is cause-agnostic, and after a rough spot of trying to be reasonable about everything when my Int and Wis have outgrown my outmoded conception of "reason," I'd have found the escape hatch and moved further towards relying on illogical intuition, but at least I'd be past confusing myself by conflating "a good idea [something I want to do]" with "a good idea [something you could explain to someone else why you'd like to do it]" and "something my father said [generally a good idea]" and other neighboring concepts.  

In answer to your question of what a "good idea" is, I'd probably say something like that a good idea is hard to define in the abstract and that any attempted definition would be easy to find edge-cases in, but that I can point at the general category and I think it's a natural enough category that you ought to be able to see it if someone's pointing at it, and that the category I'm pointing at are those ideas which serve to increase your options and abilities and life satisfaction, where life satisfaction is broader than just happiness but includes happiness as an important component. 

If you'd somehow gotten it into your head to be a Kuthite, I hope you can see how if someone told you that you should do things that make you happier, and if you said you didn't want to be happy, the correct response would be that you should start wanting to be happy. It's the same exact thing if you say that you're an Erastilian and think you'd rather do your duty than be happy, or if you're a Sarenite and think you'd rather make others happy than be happy. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with doing your duty or with making people happy, if those are what make you happy, and I'm a big fan of both, but I do them because it pleases me to and I don't bother when it wouldn't.

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I've maybe met people who're giving to the point of self-harm, but it's like meeting someone who works out too much. Human nature is to do less than would make you happy, and it's hard to overshoot. 

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That fails the sniff test. I am generous towards people literally whenever I feel like that'd give immediate gratification (unless there's a compelling argument against it, in which case I feel put out but put up with it for the sake of my longer term happiness). 

I'm not generous when it doesn't sound gratifying (unless there's a compelling argument in favor of it, in which case I feel put out but put up with it for the sake of my longer term happiness). 

I don't see how this can be improved on.

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Have you ever appreciated being dragged to a party or nagged into quitting what you were doing so you could something that'd be more fun?

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Not as often as I've hated being dragged places and made to do things, but sometimes by close friends.

What's the relevance?

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Doing what's right - being patient and kind and benevolent and forgiving and generous and trustworthy and loyal and helpful and brave - is like going for a run. Sometimes you can barely stand still because you feel so bad like taking off, and sometimes you feel like dogshit and you know it'd get worse if you started running and no one'd be doing you favors if they forced you to, but the rest of the time you feel kind of shitty and might or might not know intellectually that you'd feel better if you got started - it's easy to forget in the moment -, but whether or not you do, it still isn't easy to get started. I'm a little worried that coming from a context where it's not common to try and make people feel better when it doesn't seem immediately gratifying, you might not have realized how fun you'd find it.

I like to think I'd do my best to do what's right even if it only brought me pain, but I'm glad that's not the hypothetical world I live in. 

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Some of those things you call "doing what's right" seem like Good, and others like "Law."

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Sure. I'm Lawful Good. 

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You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical that Law and Good are more fun in the moment than Chaos and Evil, especially in light of how no one ever makes the argument; isn't having fun at least mildly Chaotic, and isn't it an adage that Evil has more fun? 

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Skeptics from my planet have a thing they call the "scientific method," where whenever there's a thing in dispute, they give it a test to see what happens. You could try taking a week for a small-scale trial run at being consistently nice to others.  

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Why would I need to be consistently kind or steadfast? I could make an effort to be kind more often while still doing random cruelty whenever it seemed appealing enough. 

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One of the selfish reasons to make a commitment to doing good even when it doesn't seem appealing in the moment is so you don't miss opportunities to make yourself feel better, and I'm worried that since you don't have any experience with taking these opportunities that you won't realize they're passing you by.

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Well, I definitely can't commit to any kind of consistent Good behavior when I have several ongoing evil schemes.

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That's fair. I guess it'd still probably be informative to try everything you can without compromising the ongoing schemes, but going beyond that might have wait for when you've wound those down or been defeated.

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It'd be really convenient for you people if Good were more fun than Evil, so you'd expect, if it were true, that it'd be the argument everyone makes in favor of Good.

And yet it isn't.

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Where I'm from, it kind of is. Well, either that or that Good is more effective for getting your way.

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That contradicts the evidence of my eyes. Am I to believe that on your world, the wealthiest and most powerful are paragons of moral virtue? Because it sure as Hell isn't the case here.

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...Well, not always, no, but most people aren't trying to be wealthiest or most powerful.

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Sounds like sour grapes. 

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Some of the most popular religious and philsophical movements in my planet's history aspired ideals greater than existed in the genpop, and succeeded in taking over the world and improving it.   

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Most people aren't trying to be a religious or philsophical movement. I'm flatly not interested in any kind of Good or Law that you couldn't talk a self-interested dragon into having. 

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Which must be more than none, since you detect as Lawful. Somehow.

Before we got sidetracked again, weren't you telling me when you think someone should lie and break promises?

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