"I'm going to have to ask some questions now that are just coming from... me being from another planet and having no idea what you're talking about. Please bear with me!"

"So... compulsions. I'm guessing that's, like, magic that makes you do things. And it's standard in your Empire that... certain people? Advisors? Mages? Explain this part to me... Certain people should be under compulsions, to avoid treachery."

"So I think the part I don't get is, if it's standard, what's the argument for making an exception here?"

Right. Ugh this is terrible. She's probably JUDGING him for running an empire that runs mostly on mind control. Aaaaaaaaaah. 

"That's right. They can make you do things, or prevent you from doing things. Sometimes they prevent you from having certain thoughts, though that's mostly the prisoner ones and not the standard court ones. A lot of them affect motivation, though I think Altarrin has, uh, a lot of practice at thinking around that. It applies for mages and advisors and nobles, and - pretty much anyone who's going to be at court anywhere near the Emperor or other important people, that includes servants and stuff, but outside the capital it's mostly nobles and mages unless the nobles and mages decide they want to compulsion their servants themselves." 

He closes his eyes. "...The argument for making an exception is if it would serve the Empire better in the long run for Caris to be immortal and work with Altarrin on becoming a god and fighting the other gods to make them leave us alone and let us have civilization without trying to crush it. I - think there is an argument - but I'm -  I - I guess I'm scared. That Altarrin won't actually be able to do that, I guess, and will just get himself destroyed. And that I won't be able to be a good Emperor and do right by the Empire without the Altarrin's advice. 

- just to be clear, I do also have a compulsion. Only one, though, to serve the good of the Empire. I could decide that it served the greater good of the Empire to let Altarrin leave." 

"I think I'm starting to understand how this works, but I'm still confused about one part. The compulsions make Altarrin be loyal to you and obey your orders. How is that at odds with Caris being immortal and working on becoming a god and all the rest of that? Did you order Altarrin not to do those things? Is the compulsion the problem, or the order?"

"I'm currently asking– ordering, I guess - Altarrin to stay at his post in the capital and do the job he had before. He's good at it - he has an important role in our government, he's on the council - and he also does a lot of other work on the side. He's - it was really obvious, when we thought he was dead and later when he was - out of commission - how big a hole that left. I know it's not what he wants to be doing and he's kind of miserable but I'm scared a lot of things would fall apart if he just disappeared. ...I told him I needed at least six months but I would rather five years."

He would kind of rather that Altarrin change his mind about leaving at all, actually. 

Shrug. "I think he also wants the compulsions off, so he can - think more clearly about big problems like fighting gods. That's a separate problem." 

"Oh, so, it's not that helping Caris work on immortality and godhood is disloyal to you or against your orders. It's that Altarrin would have to physically leave the capital to go do that, and devote his time and energy to do that, and that's the conflict. He can't do both jobs because he doesn't have time, and he can't physically be in two places at once. There's a choice there, and you're making it for him."

"Do I finally have it?"

Nod. 

She probably thinks he's clearly the entire problem and the worst person in this situation, doesn't she

"How do you think Caris would explain why you're making that choice? I think you said selfishness? Or maybe, over-dependence on Altarrin to run the Empire?"

Ramona is also really wondering now... if going and working on godhood requires Altarrin to leave, it probably also involves Caris leaving. And then... Bastran would be lonely?

Maybe this is not so much about not knowing how to run the Empire without Altarrin as it is about not having his favorite person/people around?

It's a theory without a ton of evidence so far but Ramona will be watching to see if it's confirmed or disproved as she goes along.

"...I'm not actually sure what Caris would say, I was - guessing. I do think Caris would probably say that I'm - thinking short-term, and should try to look at the bigger picture? I - it feels like Caris should be mad at me for making Altarrin miserable but I'm not actually sure he would - think that's a reasonable way to feel."

In a very small voice, 

"I did let Caris leave. And took off the loyalty compulsions." 

(Caris is still technically under some compulsions not to assassinate him or sabotage the Empire's infrastructure, but also expressed the intention to cast Dispel Magic on himself every so often, so who knows if that's even still true right now. Bastran could check in five seconds with mage-sight but he...hasn't, for some reason.) 

"Oh, I see! Right. Because I guess Caris has this tower now, and it's not in the capital. Got it. I am slowly putting the pieces together."

Ramona draws attention to her own plodding way of understanding to draw the spotlight off Bastran for just a moment and let him take a breath.

"It sounds like you're actually not sure what Caris thinks of this, but you think it's high on Caris' list of concerns or complaints. Let's see what Caris has to say about it."

"Caris? How is Bastran's understanding of this one? Is it a big concern for you that Bastran is keeping Altarrin at the capital? What story do you have about that, why do you think Bastran is doing it?"

" - I mean, yes. Because with Altarrin's help I can become immortal and without it - I don't know. I am much less likely to. 

I don't actually care about the Empire - I'm not under motivation-affecting compulsions anymore - but I do care about the fact that all of the people here die and the gods recycle their souls without any memories. I care a lot about that. And I can probably fix it once I'm a god, and no one else can except Altarrin. And - every person who dies, they're dying because Altarrin's busy doing - paperwork, and menacing people, and picking out what his subordinates are leaving out of their reports, and none of it matters. 

If I'd let him die he'd be back by now, probably, and that'd be - better. I feel pretty upset about that."

"So you think Bastran's being... shortsighted?"

" - actually I think he just doesn't care about everybody dying?"

This is not adding up. Why is Bastran keeping Altarrin at the capital?

1. Bastran is shortsighted, aka stupid. No.
2. Carissa's theory: Bastran doesn't care about everybody dying. Hmmm. Need to ask more about this, but even if there's something to it, it wouldn't stand alone.
3. Bastran feels unprepared to run the empire without Altarrin. Maybe this factors in but Ramona thinks Bastran can figure it out, and that Bastran knows he can figure it out.
4. Bastran wants to keep Altarrin close for, like, friendship reasons or something? This was more compelling when Ramona thought Caris was also being held close, but still worth looking at.
5. Bastran doesn't actually want Caris to become immortal and a god? Not because that would be object-level bad for the Empire... it sounds like there's a lot of potential to unlock there... but maybe for relationship reasons?
6. ... Other ... ?

"So Caris, you think there's a values difference here. You can make a big difference to Bastran's people if you become more powerful, by... stopping them from dying. Or doing something better with their souls. Or something. We'll come back to that."

"And you think Bastran doesn't actually think that's important, or not as important as you think it is."

"That could be! People often do have values differences."

"He hasn't asked Altarrin to make him immortal, even though that's obviously good for the Empire."

...Bastran shivers slightly. 

(It would be good for the Empire, is the stupid thing. Caris is making an actually good point, and yet it never occurred to him, because - why? Because he doesn't want that to be true? ...Because being immortal at all sounds - exhausting, mostly - and being immortal specifically for the good of the Empire sounds worse. It’s an honor to be Emperor and it also matters that someday he’s going to be done.)

Bastran shrugs, awkwardly. “I don’t think I really want to be immortal. Obviously other people can want it, and it’s - better if it’s an option, but…” He’s not sure where he was going with that sentence, and trails off.

Obviously people sometimes just...have different preferences...but Altarrin is worried about Bastran and this is one of the reasons why. 

"I agree that Caris becoming immortal before the gods find him is a high priority, and very important for the future of Velgarth." Glance over at Caris. "I think that part, I probably can manage to help with even if I am mostly working from Jacona? Even if I spend twelve candlemarks a day focused on the duties of an Archmage-General - which is, I think, already showing more commitment to the work than some of Bastran's other advisors - that still leaves eight candlemarks a day to work on Caris' immortality setup. And I do have freedom of movement, once I reach a point where I need to work closely with Caris I could Gate over to the tower for that and be back by morning." To Ramona, "- Caris can make artifacts that let someone be rested on only two candlemarks of sleep per night." 

Wow. Bastran doesn't really have a leg to stand on, he hadn't even noticed that Altarrin was taking so much time away from his duties to work on his other projects - and it's not like he doesn't spend a lot of time doing useless things like taking long baths and playing music so he can face council meetings - but he is somehow still kind of hurt. He tries not to show it. 

"Anyway. I agree it will slow the research down, and it would be better to complete it as fast as possible. And I am not making all that much headway on plans for creating a god, including the route where Caris ascends. I do think I need my full attention for that, and would prefer not to wait five years." 

"Bastran, it sounds like you were right that Caris does object to your strategy of keeping Altarrin at the capital - and you were also right about Altarrin agreeing, and thinking that you don't have your priorities straight, that he could be doing more good elsewhere."

"So good news, that's three done, and just one more to go. The last one we haven't talked about yet is that you think you hurt Altarrin a lot during the time when he was under lots of compulsions and being questioned. And you said you don't think he's angry or blaming you, just that he's hurt. Can you say more about that before we check in with Altarrin?"

Bastran takes a deep breath and tries to force himself to un-grit his teeth. 

"So the context is that the Office of Inquiry was suspicious of Caris being, uh, an agent of Asmodeus and also mind-controlling me with undetectable otherworldly mind-control powers - which is sort of unfalsifiable, right, and it's their job to be as paranoid as possible and consider the worst case scenarios, it's my job to - push back on that, if I think being that paranoid does more harm than good, but - it all came out of the blue and I was scared too. And then Altarrin had basically suicidally Gated in to get a warning to Caris - and we didn't know he was immortal, at the time, so it looked even more insane - and in general it...seemed impossible to me that Altarrin would be disloyal to the Empire unless he was mind controlled into it, and we thought it might be contagious mind control. So we - really weren't taking any chances. I knew no one was even explaining to him what was going on - even that Caris was still alive - and I knew he would hate that so much, and I wasn't even really thinking about whether it was worth that. I thought about writing a letter - I think I owed it to him to go in person, but I couldn't safely go in person from what we knew at the time, and then I sat down to try to write a letter and couldn't think what to say and gave up."

Wow that was incredibly incoherent, and now he's embarrassed about that too and it's even harder to focus. 

"- I think I had sort of decided that - there were too many other constraints and too many things to prioritize, and one of the things I could most get away with not prioritizing for a week was - caring about whether Altarrin was having a really awful time. Because I thought he would be fine no matter what. And I think he was kind of not fine afterward. I - I feel awful about it now, but at the time I think I was actually kind of mad about it, because I needed someone to do his job, and I think that was - a pretty horrible thing to think?"

Shrug. "I think Altarrin wouldn't be angry because he doesn't think that being mad at people or blaming them ever helps." 

"One of the things I'm confused about here is whether this is really on Altarrin's list of complaints about Bastran, or just on Bastran's list of complaints about Bastran. Because we would deal with those two things differently. And of course it might be both."

"So, Altarrin, help us out -- how do you think about Bastran's actions during that time? Were you hurt or angry, and are you still? Did you blame Bastran at the time, and do you still? What repair work is needed between you two, if any?"

Altarrin blinks. 

(He's maybe showing some sign of an actual emotional reaction, for pretty much the first time. He looks...tired, mostly. Definitely not angry.) 

"I mean, it was very unpleasant? I was definitely miserable and hurt while it was happening, especially because I had no idea what was going on elsewhere, and I needed some time afterward to recover, I asked Bastran for two days. I am fine now, and I was not really angry with Bastran even at the time. Most of it was the result of the way the Empire is - the way the Office of Inquiry is, especially - and I built that. I deliberately made an institution that would be maximally hostile and paranoid toward 'enemies of the state', because I thought it would be justified overall in fewer assassinations, and it would be silly to complain once I was an enemy of the state that their processes were unpleasant to experience. I think it is mostly not helpful to consider it Bastran's fault, even if he could have done better by - being unusually heroic - I generally try not to expect people to be unusually heroic. 

- I wish he had written a letter. I had no idea he was considering it, and it would have helped." 

Bastran does NOT look as though hearing this is making him feel any better. 

"So to sum up, Altarrin, it was awful, you suffered a lot, and you see it as... just the way the Empire is. Just the way you made the Empire. Once the game board was set up that way, you experienced the inevitable result, and it didn't actually have a lot to do with Bastran."

"I just want to note here that we are not attempting to solve any problems or repair any hurts between you or assuage any guilt or any of that, right now. We will get to those steps later. All we are doing right now is trying to build a shared understanding of what the relational problems even are."

"And Bastran - you're not entirely unconfused about this. You think Caris and Altarrin want you to let Altarrin go focus on his other priorities, and you're absolutely right about that. The three of you don't agree yet about that issue and there's something to talk about there."

"But when it comes to how you treated both Caris and Altarrin during the crisis, and how you threaded the needle between what they wanted and the dictates of the Empire and your other advisors - they actually think you did a pretty good job in an almost impossible situation. You don't have a relational problem there. Your problem there is within yourself, not between you and Caris and Altarrin. Does that make sense?"