Altarrin isn't totally sure he understood the question. "Caris' views on torture have not affected me, particularly. I suppose it means I would be more hesitant about, say, putting Caris in charge of running a justice system or something? I mostly expect Caris to change his mind on this eventually, since I think he is - at least paying attention to the question of whether torture is bad for people." 

"Oh, sorry, I phrased it poorly. I meant to say, how does it affect you, if Caris thinks of torture as not a big deal, or even helpful? Does it cause you any distress, or give you any problems that you now have to go solve? Does it affect the way you feel about Caris? You answered part of that when you said you wouldn't put Caris in charge of a justice system -- but if I've understood any of what you have been talking about, it sounds like you might be planning to put Caris in charge of much more than that?"

"I am not particularly distressed about it, no, it does not seem like that would help. I am not worried about putting Caris in charge of this world's afterlives, mostly because I expect that to take decades at the very least. And I think Caris is someone who - takes his responsibility to do right by other people seriously, and does better with more resources and power?"

He shakes his head slightly. "This is not something I think of as a serious problem? It it just something that comes to mind when you prompted me to think about ways that Caris could be more Good than he is now." 

"Got it, that helps!"

"What about you, Bastran? Is Caris right? Do you wish Caris were more Good? And if so, how?"

At least he managed to actually hear the question that time?

Still. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. 

Caris SHOUDLN'T be more Good, because then Caris would be  he absolutely cannot finish that thought, whatever it was supposed to be. 

He doesn't KNOW. He...probably had thoughts about this at some point...but he can't even slightly manage to retrieve them. 

"Um." 

Bastran looks to be in quite a lot of distress!

They are going to talk about emotion regulation and assessing one's own state of dysregulation in a later conversation, but Ramona and Bastran don't share any common language for that yet, so she's just going to have to try to bail him out within the conversation rather than popping up a level and talking explicitly about regulation.

She can explicitly engage in co-regulation, though. She does that by dropping her voice a little and making it deliberately slow and soothing. She uses small words. She doesn't ask any open ended questions.

"Hey. Bastran. It's okay. You're doing fine."

She waits a beat.

"It's okay if you don't know."

She waits another beat, and then decides to try something.

"I remember earlier, you said you think Caris sometimes has low standards, because of his upbringing?"

Ramona is not sure if that was too complicated a question. It might have been.

"...Yeah. I think Caris, uh, expects other people to be as horrible as they can get away with? I don't know if that's a way Caris isn't Good, it's not like he goes around being as horrible as he can get away with. I guess it's a way Caris doesn't expect other people to be Good? ...And I guess he sort of judges people for - not wanting to be horrible at all and actually wanting other people to be happy, and that's kind of tiring."  

Oh no that was probably an appallingly rude thing to say with Caris right there. Bastran really wishes he could just hide somewhere until he's capable of remembering to think of things like that before he says something. 

"Sounds like you were right, Caris, it is a little rough on Bastran that you two come from different... orientations, I guess is maybe the word? The Good/Evil thing does seem to be a bit of an issue between you."

"So that just leaves the first issue you brought up. Caris, you think that Bastran doesn't want you to 'take Altarrin away.' Which is interesting phrasing. When the other two were talking about it, it seemed like it was pretty much between them. Altarrin wants to go, and Bastran wants to keep him in the capital. And sure, Altarrin would be leaving to work on a project with you, Caris, or maybe on you, I'm a little unclear what's involved in making you immortal. But you seem to think Bastran sees you as the main actor there, the one 'taking' Altarrin. Is that right or am I reading too much into it?"

" - well, it's true that Altarrin wants to leave, and if you were just doing what Altarrin wants, you'd let him leave. And it's true that letting him leave probably lets us stop the deaths of lots of people, and if you only cared about that you'd let him leave. But I think on top of that Bastran's - jealous? That I trust Altarrin, that I risked my life for him? And so I think - it matters that it's me he'd be leaving to work with."

"Do you think Bastran sees it as a sign that you care more for Altarrin in some important way than you do for him? Or, that your caring for Bastran is not exclusive to him? Or something?"

(This is MISERABLE. Bastran would have thought he would be relieved to have a break from answering questions, but being talked ABOUT is almost as bad.) 

" - I think all men get jealous if their partner is deeply emotionally entangled with someone else? Probably Emperors more than most of them?"

(What does that have to do with being Emperor? Actually, Bastran is pretty sure that Emperors should live up to a higher standard in terms of not having stupid emotions about their romantic entanglements. He is absolutely capable of putting the feelings in the box when he's not trapped in a room doing romantic relationship counseling where the whole point is for all of them to talk about their feelings.) 

Ramona stifles the urge to respond with #NotAllMen because she's pretty sure they don't have hashtags on Velgarth.

"People vary more than you might expect! I don't take it as a given that Bastran feels exactly the way you expect that he feels, which is why we're checking!"

"Bastran? Would you be able to say something about Caris's theory that you're jealous of his trust for and 'entanglement with' Altarrin?"

"I should say that we're not going to dig deeply into it today, if it's true. Right now I'm just trying to map out all of the issues, put labels on the map of all the landmines."

Bastran did, actually, think about his feelings on this before! He can talk about his previous conclusions without having to figure out what he's feeling right now, that's much easier. 

"I'm glad that Altarrin can trust Caris and that Caris can trust him? I - they're both people I care about, and they - they've got a lot in common, really more than either of them has in common with me - and I think Altarrin was lonely before. I don't - I think it would bother me a bit if they were also, er, romantically involved," he means sex but that's somehow much worse to say out loud, "but I - think that's my problem and not theirs? I would get over it." 

He closes his eyes. "...I think it mostly bothers me that Caris doesn't trust me as much, even though - especially because - it's pretty reasonable of him not to. But that's - not really about Altarrin, it's - wishing I was better. I guess I probably spend more time dwelling on it because Altarrin is right there already being better, but it really, really wouldn't be better if Altarrin wasn't around." 

Ramona is pretty impressed by this answer! This shows more development on Bastran's part than she was previously giving him credit for.

She had actually gotten to the point before where she wondered what relationship glue might be holding Bastran and Caris together, and whether it would be enough, but this flash of maturity from Bastran gives Ramona hope that he's worthy of Caris's respect.

"It sounds like your feelings are a lot more mixed than Caris realized, or at least than he articulated to me."

"So Caris said he thinks it's a problem for you that Caris is 'taking' Altarrin away. Was he right about that?"

"I. Um. I really hadn't been thinking of it as Caris 'taking' Altarrin. I guess except maybe in a broader sense, that if Caris hadn't come to Velgarth then everything would be the way it was before and way less complicated. But then I wouldn't have met Caris, so I don't actually wish he hadn't come to this world." 

...He's going to stare determinedly at the floor rather than looking at anyone else while he tries to think. 

"...I think Altarrin hates the Empire now. And that bothers me, and it - happened because of Caris, somehow. If Altarrin hadn't learned - whatever it was that made him give up on the Empire he spent centuries building - then he wouldn't want to leave -" 

It felt like there was more of that thought but following it any further is definitely not happening and it slightly feels like he just stubbed his brain on a rock. 

"Oh wow. So this whole thing about Altarrin leaving the capital and going to work with Caris is potentially just a stand-in for that much larger issue!"

"Namely: that Altarrin might hate the Empire and Caris might have been the catalyst for that."

"That sounds really significant, if true!"

Ramona is not sure who she is addressing this to. The idea feels like a fruit so ripe that it might leak juice all over everything before you even get to bite into it. She's just going to leave the idea in the air for another minute and see what happens.

CONFUSED MISERY (Which Bastran is now actually trying to stay in control of, or at least keep thoroughly off his face, because he is an adult person and if he can handle four-hour war council meetings without leaking misery over everyone then he can surely manage this. Feelings go in box.)  

Altarrin definitely has some things he could say, but he's going to glance at Caris first. Caris also definitely has things to say, which might be more interesting than Altarrin's take on the whole situation. 

"I think most people would hate the Empire if they didn't have absurdly low standards or compulsions to serve it."

Ramona continues to do that therapist thing of remaining silent to see what else will happen.

Mostly, the way Altarrin feels about this topic is very, very tired. 

(It's a little difficult to talk about around the compulsions, but not very. Altarrin founded the Empire. The Empire he is and always was loyal to is the vision for what it was supposed to be, and that's not what it is now. He would run into trouble if Bastran gave him a direct Imperial order not to talk about it, but he really doubts Bastran is going to do that.) 

"...I do not hate the Empire, that seems like it would be - unhelpful. My attitude toward it did change when I met Caris. The important factors were learning about other worlds, which changes what other options I have, and - so one of the types of magic that exists in Caris' world, but not in this one, is spells to enhance mental abilities. I asked Caris to cast one that enhances 'Wisdom', which is - self-reflection, being more aware of your own thought patterns, noticing what you are avoiding looking at. I realized I had been avoiding noticing that the Empire is...stuck, that its current state is not the original vision of its founders, and it is not going to change. I suppose you could describe that as 'giving up' on the Empire, but - I think the current Empire has given up on itself, in a sense? Everyone educated has read the writing left by the founders. Everyone, if they bother to think about it, would know the Empire is - not that. I think we can do better– I think I can do better. I think I can do better by Bastran's standards, even if we assume he does not care about everyone being immortal and only wants the people of his Empire to have good lives. But I need more freedom to move."