- an attractive young woman dressed in fancy robes made of some unfamiliar material, and surrounded by several glowing orbs of light, appears in a doctor's office in a skyscraper in Seattle.

For many possible doctor's offices, this would cause a lot of problems. But this particular receptionist has seen some shit over the last few years and is unruffled. "I think you're on the wrong floor," she says over the top of her computer monitor. 

Tongues. 

"I'm sorry, what?" she says politely. She is going to do a better job of appearing in unexpected locations from now on, a repeat of her arrival in Velgarth would just be embarrassing now that she is a grown up wizard with a tower and all. 

"Uh, cosplayers -" this woman isn't even dressed like a Star Trek alien, but she feels like appearing out of midair surrounded by orbs of light is the same genre - "are usually looking for Ramona Sterling, ninth floor, office 905? This is pediatrics, 805. - kids. We do medicine for kids."

She looks around. Indeed in the corner there is a harried woman trying to wrangle a toddler and a baby, who hasn't even looked up. 'cosplayers' translated approximately as 'people up to weird shit they're pretending is fine', which - fair enough. 

"My apologies," she says. "How do I get to 905?"

"The local convention is to press the 'up' button on that door behind you, which is the elevator, and then the '9' button, which takes you to the ninth floor. Though you can ...do something else... if you'd rather." She evidently didn't get here with the elevator. 

"Dimension Door requires line of effect." She walks over to the elevator and presses the button. 

"The other button, that's the down button. That's why it's the lower of the two on the panel, and has an arrow pointing down."

Other button. 

"Is that magic?" asks the toddler excitedly about the dancing lights.

"Yes. Study hard and you can do it too when you grow up."

And a minute later there is a knock on the door of suite 905. (There was a brief interlude with a mistaken knock on 902. Tongues doesn't actually do symbol interpretation.)

Ramona hears a knock, checks her calendar, sees that she has an hour or so right now. She is going to need to get her own receptionist - the rate of drop-ins has been increasing lately and she really doesn't want sessions getting interrupted with new, urgent problems. But that'll have to wait.

She opens the door.

"Hello, I'm Ramona Sterling. Can I help you?"

This is a cheerful well-equipped wizard with some Dancing Lights active. She's also doing the thing where her cloak flutters in a nonexistent breeze and where she casts a striking shadow despite none of the lights in the room being positioned for it, those are easy. 

"I'm not really sure but I'm hoping so! I plane shifted here and landed on another floor of this tower and they told me that, uh, cosplayers, typically intended to come to you. My translation isn't wholly adequate to determine if I'm a cosplayer but I am in any event not in need of child medicine so I figured I would get out of their way. I'm Carissa Sevar."

"I usually help people with relationship and sex problems. If you might have one of those, you are welcome to come into my office and close the door, which gives us some semblance of privacy. We can then chat for twenty or thirty minutes to see if you have the kind of problem I might be able to help with. If not, then you just leave, and that's the end of it. If you want my help, we make an agreement about payment and we arrange to meet again at a later time and explore the problem more."

"Would you like to come in?"

"I guess I probably have some relationship and sex problems," she says thoughtfully. "Considering. Sure, I'll come in."

Ramona nods, moves aside, and shows the probable-alien with all the confusing lighting and shadow into her office. She wonders what all that is about, but it's pleasant to look at so she decides not to call attention to it. She nods at the couch and takes a seat opposite in her Stressless chair.

"What should I call you, and what do you want to talk about?"

"I haven't actually picked a title because I'm kind of in hiding. I guess you can call me Carissa. I didn't have a specific agenda but I have a lot of problems I'm currently trying to solve with relationships and/or sex, and I have had some tutoring in this but I no longer have access to my tutor. Is this the kind of help with relationships and sex where we have a relationship and have sex or is it a different kind than that?"

"Thank you for asking instead of guessing and working from that assumption!"

"The way it usually works is that our only relationship is here, in this office, fully clothed, sitting on separate pieces of furniture, talking. You tell me what you're unhappy about, or would like to be happier about, with respect to your relationships with other people or your sex with other people. Or, with yourself. Or, with... whatever. Other than me. Um. And then I try to help you with those problems."

"I used to work only with locals. Lately I've started to work with a wider variety of... entities... and I will admit that my work is a little more... freeform... now. But let's start with what I described."

"Huh, okay. So the main thing I'm trying to accomplish with relationships and sex right now is getting Bastran, who is the Emperor of the Eastern Empire, to release Altarrin from his compulsions of service to the Empire so Altarrin can help me become immortal. This was going really well very briefly and then there was a - hiccup - and I don't think we're back to half as good as it was before the hiccup?"

"Wow, okay. I have... so many questions."

"So we've got a system with three... people?... in it? It helps me to know a little bit about the basic power structure. You said Bastran is an Emperor. I am guessing that makes him pretty important and powerful. You didn't give me a lot of clues about Altarrin, but if Altarrin could potentially make you immortal that sounds impressive too."

"We don't have time today for a huge amount of backstory, but could you say something about each of the three people involved including yourself, and how you relate to each other? Like, allies, enemies, lovers, mentor/mentee, rivals, whatever?"

"Uh, Altarrin mentored Bastran and sponsored him to become Emperor and Bastran really looks up to him and feels betrayed that he now wants to abandon the Empire to work with me, and Altarrin and I were pretending to be lovers while I was his prisoner but he actually didn't touch me and I had hurt feelings about that but he likes me now but we're being cautious of making Bastran jealous, because Bastran has the power to order either of us imprisoned or executed, and did have us held and interrogated for a couple weeks in Altarrin's case and a couple of months in mine and it was fairly unpleasant? And Bastran hates how having power over people changes how all of his relationships go so I'm trying pretty hard to just relate to him as a carefree lover who isn't scared of him at all and doesn't care if he's the Emperor and in fact he's really non-scary for an Emperor but I wouldn't in fact be dating him if he weren't an Emperor, you know? I picked him because he was the one person in the whole Empire who could protect me if Altarrin got bored."

Ramona grabs a clipboard and a pen and starts drawing a diagram with A, B, and C on it, and arrows pointing in both directions between every dyad. She has to write quickly to keep up with the torrent of words from Carissa.

A --> B: mentor, sponsored as Emperor, trying not to make jealous

B --> A: looks up to, feels betrayed by, has power to imprison or execute, did hold and interrogate for a few weeks

A <--> C: pretending to be lovers

A --> C: imprisoned her, didn't touch her, likes her now

C --> A: hurt he didn't touch her, sees him as a protector, but he might get bored

B --> C: has power to imprison or execute, did hold and interrogate for a few months, hates how power warps relationships

C --> B: trying not to make jealous, trying to relate to him as a carefree lover who isn't scared, sees him as a backup protector

Ramona shows the diagram to Carissa.

"You were talking pretty fast, so my handwriting is terrible, and I don't know if you can read my writing in any case. Did I get this right? Is there anything you want to add or edit?"

"That looks pretty much right? - oh, I don't know if it matters, but Bastran is gay and I'm a boy for him."

Ramona makes a quick additional note on the C-->B edge.

"I don't know if that matters either! But probably not at this stage, when I'm just looking at the system!"

"Give me just a moment to look at this before I ask another question."

"Okay. So. I see here that you're wishing for more from Altarrin, but you mostly understand why it's not on offer right now. And you're doing a lot of pretending with Bastran. Those things are all potential problems, but might be working exactly as intended and not distressing at all."

"The thing you said a few minutes ago was... I'm trying to remember. Something about... something had been working well, and then there was a 'hiccup,' and now it's not really working anymore? What's that?"

" - so, Bastran and I had just started dating, and it was going really well! He was very into me, and I was planning to fall in love with him and get him to marry me, and this seemed straightforwardly attainable and like it'd probably be great. And then there was an attempt on Altarrin's life and I was blamed for it and had to go on the run and then have a lot of tense negotiations with Bastran about surrendering to his secret police and it was really stressful and bad for our relationship and things changed enough that it no longer made a ton of sense to plan on marrying him and becoming Empress as a life path, and I think my new life path is actually better but it's definitely worse for our relationship."

"You sure have a lot going on, by local standards! Maybe that is a normal amount to have going on, where you're from!"

"I guess I'll just mention here that there is probably a conversation we could have about whether you are doing enough to maintain your own resiliency with all that stress! We're not going to talk about that now, because I'm still just trying to get my head around the overall problem."

"So... you had your sights set on marrying Bastran and you were pretty much expecting that to work and go well and you thought you were going to enjoy it. So it's a loss and a disappointment to let that vision go, even though apparently you have already built a new plan that you're pretty happy with."

"Do you know what you want the Bastran/Carissa relationship to look like now that you're not planning on marrying him?"

"This is actually less than I had going on before I became Altarrin's prisoner but I think more than is typical where I'm from.

- so, for my relationship with Bastran, I want to be politically independent and immortal and too scary for him to defy me, and I want him to be really happy about it, like, I think he will actually feel more secure and whole in some ways once he could no longer in fact order me killed, because it's the one thing he can't otherwise have. I really like being the one thing someone can't otherwise have. And I want him to - I dunno - let Altarrin go, stop being so burdened by duty, maybe stop running his empire off mind control but I'm not really all that far towards having political convictions, I've kind of been too busy - and I want to have back the feeling where he is endlessly surprised by me and impressed by me and curious about me and I get to decide how much he gets to find out, from our first few dates, because that feeling was amazing."

"You want a lot of things! Some of those are things you have control over, at least to some degree, and some of them are not! Like the ones about how you want other people to feel... you can do your best to set up a situation that you think might lead to those feelings, but in the end it's not totally up to you."

"I assume."

"Wait."

"You do seem to have a lot of different rules where you come from. You mentioned mind control. Can you... just make people feel the way you want them to feel? And is that how you want to achieve your goals in this case? Because if you can do that I need to rapidly rewrite the way I usually think and talk about this stuff."

"That is a thing magic can do but not the kind I'm good at, and - not really the thing I want? I guess I haven't tried mind controlling people to have the right attitudes about me and maybe I'd like it more than I anticipate. But when it's been done to me it's always only worked by disrupting metacognition - hey, your world has a word for that, that's so cool, Baseline is the only other language I've encountered with a word for that -

- anyway, people are broadly less interesting and able to accomplish cool stuff if you take enough of their metacognition out to force them to feel the right way about you, so my guess would be that I won't enjoy it much if I do try it at some point."

"Okay. I think I have the general gist here. To summarize:"

"You've got a very messed up situation with two important people. You've all hurt each other, or gone to great lengths to avoid hurting each other, in every direction. You are trying to find a new, stable, configuration -- and not just any stable configuration. You have a very specific one in mind."

"You want to be much more powerful than before. And you think that if you can pull that off, it's going to help your relationship with Bastran. You'll be more like equals, and you predict that when that's true, he'll settle down and actually believe that what you're offering him is genuine rather than compelled by his greater power."

"... even though some of it is not actually genuine... but that's probably just a fine point that we can leave for now...."

"And you hope it'll help the Bastran/Altarrin relationship too. I'm a little fuzzy about how those things are connected but we can let that go for now too."

"And finally, you're hoping to get that First Date Feeling back despite the months of imprisonment and other relationship injuries."

"Do I have it?"

"Seems about right! Though really everything is negotiable except for becoming immortal. I - won't trade that off against very many other things."

"Okay. So I have just a couple more questions for right now."

"First: sometimes I work with individuals and sometimes with dyads or larger systems. Let's think about our options. Like, should I be helping just you? Or should you and Bastran come in together, or even all three of you?"

"Things to consider: who would be willing to come, who is able to come, whether I already know too many of your secrets to serve the larger system equitably, and so on. Do you have thoughts on this?"

"I'm not clear on what your objectives are here but I assume they're not the same as mine and it seems like a kind of obvious failure mode if you sell my secrets to the Emperor for unrivaled magical power."

"Yeah, no, I will absolutely not sell your secrets to the Emperor. You can pay me in a variety of local currencies and if you don't have any of those I can direct you to a local exchange. I am not in the market for unrivaled magical power at this time. I like my job and my planet and don't particularly wish to embark on a completely different magical lifestyle. It sounds... really stressful!"

"If you and Bastran both came in, I would also talk to him and find out his take on what's going on and what he wants, and we would see if you two had any joint goals that you were willing to have be common knowledge. Like maybe he also really enjoyed the first few dates and maybe he also wants to get back on a better footing with you. Maybe you're right that he wants to feel more secure with you... though he might have a different plan for how to achieve that."

"I can keep some of your secrets from him. Like, if he doesn't know that you don't always present as male, I don't know any reason right now why I would need to reveal that. And if I ran into some other problem later, where I felt like I was having to secretly serve one of you more than the other, I would not solve that problem by revealing secret information, I would solve it by withdrawing from the case."

"It is definitely more complicated."

"The advantage to working with both of you is that I stand a far greater chance of actually helping your relationship become more functional. When it's just you and me in the room, we stand basically no chance of changing Bastran. With Bastran also in the room, I can talk directly to him and possibly show him that changing his mind or his behavior in some particular way might help him achieve his own goals... and yours."

"That does make sense. - I would probably want to magically verify your claim about not selling him my secrets, and I'm not sure if he'd trust me to plane shift him to another planet. I guess I could bring you back to my tower? But if we can work out the details it'd probably be helpful for you to talk to him as well. I'm not very good at understanding Good people, I misunderstood Altarrin pretty badly when we were first acquainted."

"Magical verification about confidentiality is probably fine, though I'm curious if you would be scanning my past or monitoring my present behavior or compelling me not to tell or how it would work. If you are scanning the past then I need to know that you're not going to dig into prior cases not involving you, though I admit I am probably powerless to stop you. So, um, please don't do that."

"I am willing to do sessions in a private, secure location of your choice if you provide the transportation and assure me of my safety and well-being. There's a surcharge."

Ramona manages to say the latter with a straight face. She hasn't been off-planet yet and had rather expected to go in a spaceship, not in a... plane shift... spell... whatever that is. She would absolutely do this for free just for the thrill of it but there is no reason to say that out loud.

"Was that... Good with a capital G? Can you say more about that? I might need to add a few more labels to my diagram. Who's Good and who's... Bad? And what does that mean?"

"The gods, uh, very-powerful-very-smart-aliens, on my world of origin use a categorization schema that has the concepts of Good and Evil. Good is, uh, altruistic? It's Good to feed the poor and tend the sick and protect the vulnerable and so on. Evil is, you know, conquest and slavery and so on. I'm Evil, and probably according to the sorting scheme Altarrin and Bastran are too because of the mind control Empire, but - they're temperamentally Good, even if they wouldn't be judged that way? 

I was going to give examples but I can't actually think of any offhand. But, like, I used to work for an Evil torture god, and they wouldn't do that, they are against Evil torture gods. Though I am too, actually, it turns out, which is why it's not a good example."

Ramona is going to have to make a lot of diagrams and take a lot of notes.

Still, at least all these concepts do sort of slot together in her mind and make some kind of coherent sense? It's not like that one time with those three Criuqi. That one never got past the consultation stage. She could barely get them to leave the office because their concept of space and time was so different that they didn't understand that she wanted them to JUST GO because no actual communication was occurring and she needed her office!

And the couch was really never quite the same after that. She had to get a new one.

"I am glad that none of you are in the Evil torture business right now. I'm pretty sure that's helpful!"

"The last question I wanted to ask you was about timing. As I understand it, you have this big plan to become more powerful and you're expecting a lot of things to shift in your relationship with Bastran once you've sorted that out."

"So... should we be talking now? Or... do you want to go get that power and then meet after that and see how it's going? I am not sure how long-term a project you expect this to be?"

"Oh, I expect it to take years, conceivably a decade. I probably want relationship advice now. It'll really be less essential once I am astoundingly powerful, the worst case scenario at that point is that I am immortal and have alienated everyone who ever cared about me and have to sulk alone in a demiplane until they're all dead, and that's a pretty great worst case scenario."

Ramona is taken aback by the scale of the problems here but is familiar with the shape of them!

"Yes, it's common for people to worry that they have to choose between their individual goals and their desire to be loved and connected with others. It sounds like you know how those priorities stack up for you and it's great that you have clarity about that!"

"So yes, if this is a multi-year project then we might as well go ahead and get started. And I'll just note right now that we're probably going to have to come up with a new plan for getting the warmth and excitement of the early dates back, if it can't all hinge on your increase in power!"

"I do think I might be able to help you. Despite how high-stakes all of your problems are, I have worked on other cases that had the same general outlines and had some good results. If you want to hire me, then I'm in."

"The next step is for the three of us to meet together, and then after that I will also want to spend some time talking to Bastran without you. We also need to make sure we have shared understanding about how confidentiality works and how you -- both of you -- can be sure information won't leak incorrectly. We can talk about that at our next meeting, probably first thing after we all get together."

"That works for me!

I don't have local currency, I do have gold and silver and spellsilver and diamonds if any of those are valuable here?"

"Gold, silver, and diamonds are all valuable here. I don't know what spellsilver is."

Ramona hands Carissa a leaflet with information about her fee schedule and how to find a local currency exchange. She feels a bit sheepish sending this obviously Very Important Client out to exchange her own currency. If she's starting to attract this class of client, obviously the right thing to do is to jack up her rates and use some of the money to hire a receptionist... and get currency exchange sorted out on her own end.

Small business ownership is complicated!

"Does this format of information exchange work for you? I can provide it in a few other digital formats if that's easier for you, but I think lower tech probably works best for our communications based on the vibe I'm getting so far."

"I don't know exactly what a digital format is," she agrees cheerfully. "If it is advanced 'tech' Velgarth doesn't have any of that because the local gods hate technological progress. I am familiar with it through an acquaintance with another person from a world that has advanced 'tech' and it seems pretty great but I don't want to motivate the local gods to try even harder to kill me until I am immortal so I am not going to adopt it immediately."

"Paper it is, then! You seem to be able to decipher my written language!"

"I look forward to our next meeting! I will leave it to you to get in touch with me about that, as I have no way whatsoever of contacting you from my end! I would appreciate a little bit of notice so I can make sure that matters here are attended to before I vanish and go meet with you and Bastran."

"I will either come in person or do a Sending to let you know a time convenient for Bastran and I!" And she will head out with her leaflet in hand, and go exchange gold for local currency and try some local food even though she doesn't need to eat and buy some local books (hopefully if she doesn't yet read them and is firmly committed to not doing so until she has been immortal for a while, the Velgarth gods won't perceive a particular increase in threat just from her possessing them.)

And then she'll pull out the fairly complicated magical artifice (a joint project with Altarrin) she uses for casting spells she has no business casting, and go home. 

She contacts Altarrin and Bastran with news when she otherwise planned to do so (a few days later) so that her visit to the new planet doesn't look to the gods like something they should've tried harder to prevent. She's pretty sure it is something they should've tried harder to prevent but that's all the more reason not to let it look like it. 

She lets them know that the experiment was a success and caused her to meet another planet's, uh, relationship counselor, and also get some books they may not use yet.

That sounds like a new candidate for one of the most important events in Velgarth's history to date. And also kind of terrifying. And also...what. 

Altarrin has a planned visit a couple of days later. He doesn't reschedule any meetings; he also wants to avoid making it look to the Velgarth gods like he's significantly changing any of his plans based on this, which would hint that it's important and thus that They should probably be motivated to stop him. He'll bring Bastran, though, which he hadn't previously been planning on. 

Well that's discomfiting. Bastran has questions. Which he doesn't really want to ask, because pushing Caris on the matter of why he was particularly motivated to look for another world's relationship advisor sounds agonizingly awkward. 

He'll reschedule a meeting so he can accompany Altarrin on a visit to Caris' wizard tower, though. 

And two days later, Altarrin Gates both of them to Caris/Carissa's wizard tower. 

It's already ridiculously well shielded, but they're talking about a candidate for one of the most important events in Velgarth's history so far. He puts up a lot more shields before sitting down and asking Caris/Carissa to please explain. 

"It worked. Plane Shift never gives you much control over the destination, and I was unlucky but in a manner possibly characteristic of Keltham landing on me and me landing on you, in that I landed in a populated area and was immediately told I was probably looking for suite 905. So I ...went to room 905. No visible magic anywhere, lots of technological advancement, but it wasn't dath ilan because they were familiar with - not Golarion wizards specifically, I think, but lost interworld travellers more generally? Which makes sense, most places you land you shouldn't expect to be the only person who landed there. 

Anyway, 905 had a relationship counselor. Presuming this to be a work of the cosmic force that dropped Keltham on me and then me on you I told her my relationship problems, and she offered to attempt to address them in exchange for pay, that being what she does professionally. She wants to talk to Bastran as well. I said he'd probably have security concerns about me taking him worldhopping and offered to bring her here; she agreed. I figured I can use a lesser geas to confirm she's representing her relationship counseling priorities accurately and then you can use compulsions for secrecy, though we'll have to negotiate details. 

- the world is obviously far more important for its other qualities, and I did buy as many of their engineering books as fit in my bag of holding, but we can't visibly use that right away. I'll give them to Altarrin to stash in secret locations hard for the gods to interfere with on the condition that you don't do anything else with them until I'm immortal. ...or dead in a way that isn't your fault, I guess I want you to use them immediately and as splashily as possible if I end up dead in a way that isn't your fault."

Caris/sa looks quite relaxed and pleased with themself. There is no point in being dumbstruck by the enormity of the situation, and no one even tried to kill her so really it was a very relaxing and civilized trip.

...You know what, all of that is a really good point. Not enough that Altarrin is feeling relaxed, exactly, the cosmic force that dropped Keltham on Carissa and then Carissa on Velgarth doesn't seem entirely benevolent and certainly isn't harmless, but he had started out being a lot more baffled about Carissa's initial message, and he's now less confused. 

"That makes sense, about the books. I agree. I - would potentially wish to visit the other world at some point, I think. At the very least, it would be safer to read some of their books there, where I think our gods cannot see, and if necessary I could place compulsions on myself not to change any of my Velgarth plans based on their contents."

Sigh. "You are - fairly hard to kill, and we are taking substantial precautions. I think it is unlikely the gods will succeed at killing you now even if they attempt it, but I am still inclined to discourage attempts any way we can. I can put the books in a secure hidden location and commit not to reading them while in Velgarth, and definitely not to using their contents, unless Carissa dies in which case I will use them in very dramatic ways." 

He glances over at Bastran, then back at Carissa. "...I do think relationship counseling might help, assuming the person you met is good at it." 

There are other things he wants to say - like the fact that he's pretty sure Carissa could benefit a lot from talking to someone about Keltham, and untangling some of those feelings - but Bastran is right there, and he doesn't actually know how to say it. 

He suspects the 'relationship counselor' will figure it out, anyway. Based on everything they've seen so far, it would be pretty uncharacteristic of the cosmic forces governing the multiverse to direct Carissa to the office of a mediocre relationship counselor. 

Well this is humiliating. Bastran has no idea what to say and he's pretty sure he has to say something. He really wishes he knew what exactly Caris just told the - otherworldly relationship counselor - about his (their?) relationship problems? But he's not about to ask to hear more details in front of Altarrin. 

"...That seems like a reasonable plan to me," he says. "And, uh, you're right that I'd prefer not to travel to other worlds with you using your magic, at this point." He would have to either tell his personal guard (aaaaah!) or deliberately make a decision not to tell his personal guard, and face the fact that someone might learn of it later anyway (AAAAAAAHHHHH!!??). "I'd be willing to meet with this person, if you can - verify her intentions - before she knows where I am. And if she's okay with the usual compulsions." 

It would be safer if he also asked to have a guard there, probably. It would be safest to ask for Arbas, however, Bastran spectacularly does not want Arbas in the room when he's talking to Caris about their relationship problems. And it sounds agonizing in general.

He doesn't ask about guards. 

"I will send her a proposal for compulsions. She seemed pretty inclined to be all right with security measures that left her alive and in one piece and didn't endanger the confidentiality of her other clients. I think you could have guards, I'll need to give you Tongues to talk with her at all so the guards won't understand anything being said. Not Thoughtsensers, she had confidentiality concerns about mindreading though maybe we could assuage that with the right compulsions."

She'll hand Altarrin the books, then, and a Scholar's Ring so he can read them. "They had nonmagical elevators in the buildings! It was very cute."

Calling the non-magical elevators "cute" is so...Caris...this is objectively a ridiculous thing to have feelings about, but apparently Bastran has feelings about it anyway. 

...Altarrin is going to read the titles and first pages of the books, and write them down. (Transcribed in the Imperial alphabet so he can read them without the Scholar's Ring, just in case. He has to take the Scholar's Ring on and off a couple of times before he's sure that he's actually doing that.) And decide after that whether to read any more right now. He's not actually sure if he's in the right mental state to read books about technology from another world and definitely not make plans based off it; he's still slightly reeling from the whole "there's another world and we might have access to it" thing. 

Altarrin can read books. Bastran is going to...awkwardly sit here being vaguely and directionlessly sad, apparently. Maybe Caris will notice that he's being an idiot and order him to stop that.

"I think you'll like Ramona," she says to him instead. "She has purple hair and a way of talking that makes it hard to feel misunderstood."

"Purple hair? Huh. ...What was the way she talked that made it hard to feel misunderstood? That seems like it - shouldn't just work as a general way of talking, it'd have to be specifically making you not feel misunderstood?" 

"I don't know, I think there's a general skill, something like casting a wider net over the range of possible interpretations. Also a lot of writing everything down and then asking if it was right. - I'll have to make another Scholar's Ring so you can keep up with that."

...Nod. 

(There are a lot of things he wants to say, but - it's probably just better to try to say them later, actually, with the "relationship counselor" in the room. Bastran is pretty sure he's demonstrated extensively that he's bad at saying things to Caris.) 

Caris was honestly fine with the state of things a week ago and is worried proposing the counselor made things worse. Whoever dropped Keltham on her was not exactly being nice to Keltham.

Nothing for it, though, but to come up with a security proposal she can deliver in writing to Ramona tomorrow. ....aaaaand another Scholar's Ring so Ramona can read it. There's no magic that lets you write in a language you don't know. 

This is welcome news, really, because time she's spending crafting will neither show up to gods as a threat nor involve any being stupid and weak.

The security proposal is four pages long and includes assurances that the air on Velgarth is verified to be breathable by humans from other places, that the gods are known hostile but believed to have limited capacity to act in Carissa's tower, that everyone present will be qualified to Teleport them out immediately in the case of trouble while a Teleport Trap prevents inbound interplanar transit (a footnote clarifies that even an ordinary Teleport between two locations on the same plane is relevantly interplanar transit), and that the compulsions they want Ramona to agree to be subject to which prevent her from attacking the Emperor or triggering magic items or obeying instructions from allies not so vetted etc etc etc are completely standard, are not substantially motivation-altering or cognition-altering and will be removed when she leaves, except the compulsion to not share details of the situation with anyone, which they want to leave in place. 

It also bothers to represent that all involved parties are Lawful to the best of their knowledge and haven't broken agreements in the broad reference class of this one and are willing to have all of the above formally verified by whatever truth magic or truth technology Ramona has available.

"Any further suggestions?" she asks Altarrin and Bastran.

“Is she familiar with the concept of Lawfulness? I was not until I met you, or - at least I did not have a word for it. It might be helpful to describe that in more detail.”

Footnote, Lawful is a dimension used by gods in Carissa's world of origin and is an observable feature of people and relates to their tendency to keep their word when they give it. It is not actually a sufficient condition for signing a contract with some people to be a good idea but it's often an important consideration and this contract doesn't really let them do anything they couldn't do anyway. 

"...does that come across as threatening?"

(It’s probably not more threatening than whatever Caris already said to Ramona when they met before. Caris is weirdly calibrated on what things come across as threatening.)

“I think that works fine.”

Great! Would Altarrin like to come with her to the other world while she drops this off for Ramona. Until they've identified the extent of divine-and-other surveillance in the other world Carissa wants everything they do there to be very boring but they can at least look around, learn more about how the world works, figure out if mindreading is illegal, that kind of thing. 

…Altarrin can accompany Caris/Carissa to the other world, sure. He maybe wants to make a Gate-trip to pick up some extra protective artifacts for both of them first. 

She certainly won't turn those down.

Altarrin has a belt of Constitution now. He’s not particularly tired at all when he gets back with a crate of fully powered shield-talismans from one of his records caches. 

Bastran should not in fact go with them, but he’s pretty sure he’s going to spend the entire time they’re gone being unproductively worried.

(Altarrin would be capable of instead NOT pointlessly fretting, if their positions were reversed. It’s not exactly news that Altarrin has some skills that Bastran lacks, and Altarrin also wouldn’t think he ought to be embarrassed about that, but apparently he’s going to be embarrassed anyway. And worried.)

Caris has absolutely no idea how to be emotionally supportive of people aside from distracting them with sex. He'll just smile at Bastran and promise to bring back a present. 

And then they can hacky-artifact-augmented-Plane-Shift again! They land in a random ocean, which isn't very unusual for a Plane Shift; she'll Teleport them to land, because she's been there before and Altarrin hasn't.

And then she will go find the correct skyscraper (by looking; she doesn't have a local map yet) and go up to the ninth floor to drop off the contract.

Ramona is on her way back to her office from the bathroom and sees Carissa and someone else she doesn't recognize outside her office.

Dang. Receptionist! Need to get on that!

"Oh! Wow. I have a packed day today. I hope this is the making-arrangements meeting and not the actual meeting?"

"Either way, I do have just a few minutes before my 9am session. Why don't you come in."

Ramona unlocks her office door with a key and gestures Carissa and her associate inside.

"I'm just here to drop off the contract and a scholar's ring so you can read it." She drops the scholar's ring on Ramona's desk. "- I think by rights this is worth much more than I'm otherwise paying you but I suppose I can cover it. This is Altarrin. We're going to spend the day exploring this lovely planet of yours; if we stop by at the end of the day will that give you enough time to read the contract and let us know when you have availability?" Carissa has toned down the outfit today; she's actually exactly imitating the receptionist from the pediatrician's office. No point in calling attention to herself.

(Altarrin is not reading Ramona’s mind with his Detect Thoughts item, because that wasn’t part of the agreement and would risk violating the confidentiality of her other patients, but he kind of wants to. He isn’t exactly anticipating anything specific going wrong, but he’s definitely somewhat on edge.)

Ramona is used to Google Translate, or that thing where you point your camera phone at a package of noodles you got from Uwajimaya so you can read the instructions about how to prepare them. She is not used to jewelry doing translation. What is it going to do, read the contract to her? Wouldn't that make more sense as earrings?

"I, um. This is a new kind of technology for me. I'm curious enough that I'm going to try it even though I don't actually know you well enough to trust you, but I have to at least pretend to be a little bit cautious here. What does this ring do, exactly? Does it have any side effects besides reading the contract to me?"

“It can also cast Legend Lore as the sixth circle wizard spell? That’s not actually relevant very often but it fits in really elegantly so I don’t usually tear it out even though it’d save some spellsilver. …Legend Lore is very mediocre long range pastwatching.

- anyway, it won’t hurt you. If you have other magic rings on the same hand it might interfere with those but that’d be nondestructive interference. Unless you have a Ring of Spell Turning.”

Ramona holds out her hands.

"As you can see, I didn't wear any other magic rings today," she says dryly. "Most of what you just said flew right by me but I'm going to focus on 'it won't hurt you' and go with that."

"Okay, please hang on just a moment while I try it on and see if I can actually understand the document and how long it looks."

Ramona squares her shoulders, takes a breath, and puts the ring on her right hand.

Nothing terrible seems to happen.

Ramona picks up the contract that was previously all chicken scratches. What does she see now? How long does it seem to be?

It is four pages long and written by an ex-Asmodean, which is to say that she's not actually trying to screw anybody over but she doesn't know a way to write contracts that doesn't have that as something of a baseline assumption. It emphasizes some normal things like penalties for damages and some non-normal things like what will be done in case of possession by unquiet spirits.

The document now appears to be in English! Nothing is speaking out loud in Ramona's ear or on her finger! She can just - read it. This is like...

Oh. Fuck.

It's like magic.

Ramona feels a little bit silly.

She glances over it. It looks nothing like standard legal boilerplate, but the sentences and paragraphs basically make sense, and it's not super long.

"Yes, I can review this today. If you come back in the evening I'll be ready to ask questions or possibly just agree to it, depending."

"Here is my corresponding disclosure form. It's much more about what I promise you than what you promise me."

Ramona hands Carissa the usual paperwork.

"We'll read this as well. Thank you! Have a good day!"

Ramona closes the door behind Carissa and her associate and realizes she totally failed to introduce herself or get his name. Which one was it, she wonders? Well, she'd figure that out later. She has more important things to do in the... seven minutes before her session.

She stares at the contract, and takes the ring off, and watches the document change.

She puts the ring back on, and it changes again.

She sliiiiiiides the ring off slowly, trying to find the exact moment where she loses the ability to read the contract. Is it like a switch flipping, or did someone put a fader on the transition?

Ramona giggles. This is fun.

Does she have any books in here in languages she can't already read? Will the ring work on those or only on Carissa's language? Was it bound to her, or if she lends it to a friend, will the friend be able to read things too?

OH FUCK. She can't lend it to a friend. That would be breaking confidentiality, because her friend would have SO MANY QUESTIONS.

Sigh.

This job has so many highs and lows.

Carissa has plans for a day that is nonthreatening to hypothetical surveillance. She is going to exchange more gold for more local currency and then buy more books and see if there are any slaves for sale (fastest way to get acquainted with the way this society works without asking any suspicious questions) and attempt to document the behavior of the local shiny megafauna.

Altarrin is still tense, which is inconvenient, it's not actually useful at all. He's not sure whether he got a good read on Ramona. She does seem competent? And she's noticeably somewhat confused and overwhelmed by the situation, but - that just seems reasonable and correct of her. It's a really bizarre situation. 

...He's pretty sure the large shiny fast-moving things are not megafauna. They aren't alive, and he doesn't think they're magic, either. They mostly don't show up to mage-sight at all, and to the extent they do, it's in a very strange way that he's never seen before. He quietly points this out to Carissa, and then follows her. 

Carissa is not herself possessed with the ability to tell if things are alive. She had noticed they weren't magic. Maybe they can purchase one, disassemble it, and see how it works? And same thing with a dozen other technologies? Though she does need to take a few hours to read through the contract and confirm she is not selling her soul or anything else she's fond of.

Also, she needs to get Bastran a present. She will check out the clothing stores for impossible dath ilani fabrics. 

--

They'll be back at Ramona's office in the evening, with a Bag of Holding full of goodies including a perfect 1/16th scale model of a Toyota Corolla.

(Altarrin helped Carissa read through the contract. He's - impressed, mostly, less about the specifics - though he can pick up that Ramona made some careful additions - and more by the fact that this world clearly has infrastructure built around standard confidentiality agreements for professionals whose entire job is to give people live advice, or in this case, relationship advice specifically. It's a good idea! And one that would definitely not have occurred to him.) 

Ramona spends her lunch break trying to decipher the contract. She is missing a lot of context and not all of it actually makes sense. Like, what is interplanar transit? She debates whether to ask for every word to be explained until she really actually gets it, or if it's sufficient in this case to sort of handwave a bit. Surely "interplanar transit" is just some kind of... going from one place to another. By magic. As you do.

She does pause to consider the section on Lawfulness. It sounds like they have a concept for whether a person has ever broken any laws before. They do seem to have, like, categories of laws - such that if you've broken agreements "like this one" before then that would obviously be a bad sign. This does not seem to map neatly onto categories of laws that Ramona knows. Misdemeanors and felonies? Moving violations vs. grand theft auto? Ramona doesn't get this part. She is definitely missing some important information here.

She is a little bit charmed that there is an offer for her to verify whether her clients really mean the contract and will hold up their end of the deal. What a luxury verification would be! Ramona's basic assumption about all of her Earth clients is that 1) most of them are basically good people who 2) lie to themselves and other people all day long as a matter of course. Ramona makes promises to her clients. She doesn't hold them to the same standards. She assumes they're going to be all over the place.

They do have to pay their bills, but she can't really even make them do that. She just has them pay as they go and won't keep seeing them if they don't pay.

And anyway, she doesn't have any truth magic or technology. There've been some big advances in human/computer interfaces in the last couple of years such that you can actually get a printout of someone's thoughts now, but it's expensive and invasive and Ramona's only used it when rich clients have provided the equipment. And she's had a few psionic alien clients, but their powers weren't catching.

So Ramona will do what she always does: hope for the best and keep her wits about her.

That evening, Ramona hears a knock at the door. She pushes aside her chow mein and opens the door.

"Hello! We read over your agreement and it mostly seems sensible. I did have one question. You mention you will report it to some authorities if anyone wants to kill themself or hurt children? What probability of getting yourself killed does a plan have to have to qualify as suicidal and activate that clause? Does it matter if the harm is to people in general, some of whom are children? Presumably every law harms some children, right?"

"Welcome back!"

"The suicidality clause is a lot harder to trigger than most people think. I have to believe that you really mean it and that you have the means to do it and that you're probably going to do it pretty soon unless I intervene. I have a lot of leeway there for my own judgment there. And even if all the rest is true, the main point of that is to stop people from making silly mistakes. Most people who feel like killing themselves change their minds within a day or two and then are glad they didn't do it. For people who have really thought about it and come to a careful decision, I don't consider myself to know better than you."

"If you just have a reckless plan that might result in your death but you don't want to die, then actually I'm not obligated to stop you at all! Though I do care about my clients' well-being so I'm probably going to ask some questions about that."

"If you have specific plans to harm specific other people, I am required under Tarasoff to report that. Though now that you mention it, if we're having this session on your turf then Tarasoff doesn't apply, so never mind that part. Also I don't know who I would report it to exactly."

"Strangely enough, my code of ethics does not treat plans to hurt children any differently than plans to hurt adults. However, if you already hurt or neglected children in specific ways, then I am supposed to report that. Though, again, I really can't think what agency would consider it their jurisdiction."

"Operating off-planet means I am working without any state machinery behind me and my ethical code at all. So a lot of my disclosure sort of doesn't make sense, and I'm going to have to revise it so I'm just making statements about me and my own ethics. I guess on the topic of, say, abusing children, all I can say is that I'm not going to support you in doing that or try to help you achieve that with less distress. But I am acutely aware that there is no principled way to move through life without hurting other people sometimes, and I won't immediately assume that you need to be stopped from doing that."

"Did that answer your questions well enough? When you're ready, I have a question for you as well."

"I think that mostly answers my questions! Are people supposed to go to separately qualified therapists if they have distress related to their child-hurting habits?"

"Unfortunately in our society we don't yet have a way for people who actively enjoy hurting children to get some help with that without immediately being imprisoned and shunned for it, so those people simply don't get any help. We're better about most other classes of behavior."

"Here's my question: in your contract you want me to attest to being Lawful but I don't know exactly what that means. I think this paragraph here was supposed to clear it up but I'm not sufficiently sure I understand it to be willing to sign."

"Oh, sorry, I must've written it carelessly. You probably wouldn't know if you're Lawful. Does 'if you have broken contracts in this general class in the past' make sense?"

"I mean, I'm not sure where to draw the boundaries around 'this class' but I think I've done a good job protecting my clients' confidentiality to the best of my ability."

"Well, I'm comfortable with you signing to that. When should we pick you up for the session?"

"Day after tomorrow in the morning, my time?"

"How many the-duration-of-our-first-conversation-s from now is that?"

"Oh gosh. Let's see. The first time we met we talked for about half an hour. So... like... 76 of those? Give or take? Let's make it 80 to give more margin for error, and if you get here and it's still dark outside, well, I'll be along soonish. You can always go across the street to the Five Point Cafe if you need to kill some time. The food there is good and they're open day and night."

"Your civilization has good food," Carissa says cheerfully. "See you in eighty of those, then!"

Altarrin can accompany Carissa back to Velgarth. At some point he probably does want to research how to Gate back and forth. The ordinary Gate-technique doesn't work, though without further study he can't tell if that's because it's too far for the standard search-spell to reach or because they're on an entirely different plane of existence and he can't access the Void at all from here with the usual method. For now, though, it's simplest to go on getting rides from Carissa. It's not impossible that Gates, a form of magic native to Velgarth, would be more visible to gods in Foresight than Carissa's Golarion-style Plane Shift.

Carissa makes a little hourglass that'll count the appropriate time unit and sets an Unseen Servant to tallying how many times it has run out. She could probably do better than that but she hasn't made a particular study of timekeeping. "You'll tell Bastran the meeting time?"

Nod. "I can tell him. And Gate both of us over here a little bit early." You can do timekeeping with Velgarth magic, but it's not trivial, especially not for making on the fly for time-units from another world. 

"Great." Carissa's going to turn her small car back into a big car and get started on taking it apart to study. 

Altarrin heads back to the Empire. He sits through a couple of routine meetings, acting like nothing is out of the ordinary, and then summarizes the conversation with Ramona and her confidentiality agreement to Bastran. "I had a positive impression of her. She seems - quite levelheaded, even when faced with highly bizarre situations like ours. I expect she will have useful advice to offer you and Caris." 

"And you too? You're coming, right?"

Bastran continues to be pretty sure that Caris is in love with Altarrin, and vice versa. And they're stubbornly avoiding actually doing anything about that out of some desire to avoid hurting Bastran's feelings. Which would be very thoughtful of them, except that the hurtful part is mostly the part where he knows perfectly well that Caris trusts Altarrin with his life, and - reasonably! - doesn't trust Bastran. Beside that, whether or not they're also sleeping together fee ls like a minor note. ...Okay, fine, maybe it would in fact bother him, but that's a stupid way to feel. Altarrin isn't going to be jealous and immature about things. 

Sigh. "Yes. I will be there, at least for the initial meeting. Though I think she will want to talk to you alone, at some point, and probably also just you and Caris without me there." 

...Sigh. 

By some convenient coincidence, the day length on the other planet is the same as on Velgarth. Two days of being distracted in all of his important meetings later, Bastran is ready at the appointed time for Altarrin's Gate over to Caris' wizard tower. 

And Caris has run off to Earth to pick up Ramona. He's wearing an exact imitation of the attire of the man he bought the Toyota Corolla from.

Carissa is an attractive woman, but not supernaturally so; Caris is the form she picked to seduce the Emperor and he is extremely specifically designed to Bastran's tastes: nineteen or so, very muscled, very striking. 

He knocks on Ramona's door.

It's a Saturday, the office building is pretty quiet, and this is pretty close to the time she was expecting Carissa.

Ramona has packed a backpack with a notebook, lots of pens in different colors, a sweater, a variety of over the counter medications, some tampons, a water bottle, and some protein bars. She also has backup batteries for her cell phone that will of course not have any signal on another planet but she just can't seem to bear to go on any kind of trip without it. She remembered how fighter pilots used to carry cigarettes and nylons in case they were shot down behind enemy lines, and she threw in a battery-powered flashlight and some batteries for it, just in case that's a novelty of value to someone if she's stranded. She's wearing a comfortable outfit, sensible shoes, and the Scholar's Ring.

She is definitely not ready for this, but she's as ready as she can make herself, and that's going to have to do.

When she hears the knock at the door, she opens the door, fully expecting Carissa.

This... is not Carissa.

"Um. Hi."

Ramona is having a little trouble stringing together a sensible greeting.

She was in a very specific other headspace.

Now she doesn't seem to be in any kind of a headspace at all.

She internally shakes her brain like a sodden golden retriever getting out of a lake.

"Can I help you? I'm actually very busy today, but if you just need directions or something?"

" - oh, sorry, this is Carissa. I mentioned I'm a boy for Bastran? I'm here to pick you up, if it's convenient."

"Haha! Ha!"

Ramona is painfully aware that she is spazzing out. She pulls herself together and makes a mental note to prioritize finding other outlets when she gets home.

"Of course! I didn't realize you would already be in this form when you arrived. I'm ready!"

"Great!" Then he'll take Ramona's hand and his item, Plane Shift them back to Velgarth, land in a random location, and Teleport them home to the threshold of his tower.

Obviously like any mildly self-respecting wizard with access to a lot of diamond dust and silver he's Teleport Trapped the whole vicinity of the tower; they are on the other side of the lava moat, over which there is a stone bridge.

(There is really no point in being a boring person anymore, if you have led the life Carissa has up to this point. And it was good practice.)

"Bastran and Altarrin should be here shortly," Caris says, flying across the moat to order the doors open for Ramona.

Ramona is having a day and it is still morning. She is going to have to figure out how to keep her jaw attached to the rest of her head and get her wits about her or she is going to be completely useless to these people.

"Once we're inside, I will need a few moments to myself to prepare. Is that possible?"

"Certainly." 

The wizard tower has a elevator that does not run on electricity but on a Floating Disk, a open elevator shaft, and a sitting room with sumptuous chairs and a fireplace and a tea setting and some bookshelves. It's less nice than Bastran's place, for the obvious reasons. Caris will show Ramona to a chair. 

"You can tell the Unseen Servants -" Caris has them wearing hats, so they're possible to identify; they'd otherwise be invisible without mage-sight - "when you're ready for us."

"Okay... I am going to assume that if I just say out loud, 'I'm ready,' then that'll work!"

Once Carissa has left the room, Ramona runs through a quick sensory grounding exercise. She plants her feet on the floor and feels her connection down through her spine, down her legs, into the floor, and feels the solidity of it. She tenses and relaxes all her major muscle groups. She breathes.

She whispers to herself.

"Carissa is incredibly hot. Of course she is, she created this form, why would she not make herself hot? This just makes sense."

"Carissa can fly. While I did not predict this specifically, this too makes sense."

"A lot of weird shit is going to happen today. That's okay."

"They're just people, with regular people problems, but empire-sized. The same principles still apply. I know how to do this."

She deliberately raises her voice to a normal speaking tone.

"I'm ready."

Altarrin Gates them in, several minutes later than the time Carissa specified because he ended up having to coax Bastran out of his quarters for it. 

He's wearing kind of a lot of shield-artifacts, and brought the item of Detect Thoughts just in case, but he's not exactly nervous. This is Carissa's home ground - if the gods had the ability to come after her here, it would probably have happened sooner, when she was a more vulnerable target - and Ramona isn't Gifted. If something does go wrong, he can Gate them (with or without Ramona, depending on what went wrong) to a secure records cache in a fraction of a second. He's not anticipating that anything will go wrong, though. 

He's pretty sure Bastran is terrified, but mostly not of physical danger. 

Bastran is probably going to have to talk about his feelings in front of Altarrin of all people, which he's not looking forward to at all. But he's as ready for this as he's ever going to be. 

They can go in. 

The Unseen Servants have conveyed that Ramona is ready! Caris will show them on up.

"Hello! I'm Ramona. Can we sit down and then do a round of introductions?"

Altarrin sits down. 

"I am Altarrin and this is Bastran. ...Should we also share more background about ourselves?" 

Ramona is feeling a bit awkward because she doesn't actually know Carissa's name or pronouns in this form and even worse, she doesn't know if the others know that Carissa has another form. She decides to play it cool and hope that someone else says the name and the pronouns so Ramona won't have to give anything away by asking.

"Yes, would you please? Just a little bit about yourself and how you're connected to each other. I have already heard some of this but I learn something new as each person explains."

"I'm Carissa, or Caris when I'm a boy. I'm a wizard. I - uh, I don't know how much context is relevant. I'm from Cheliax, on my third tour of service at the Worldwound I met an interdimensional traveller who I started dating as part of an elaborate conspiracy to convince him that we were the good guys, we were not the good guys, he left, I started working on an elaborate plan to betray my country of which one step was to erase my own recent memories, to my recollection I then ended up in Altarrin's office, he took me prisoner, I started making magic items for him and the Empire, I - misunderstood some things and thought my situation was fragile, I set out to seduce Bastran, we got along great, there was an attempt on Altarrin's life, it turned out to be the windup for an attempt on mine, he Gated back in to rescue me, I went on the run, I surrendered, I was imprisoned for a while, I got my tower, I live here now doing magic research."

Ramona's decision to remain unfazed is holding up!

She takes notes as fast as she can, and then looks up at the other two men.

Altarrin didn't actually discuss with Carissa whether Ramona was trustworthy to know about his immortality, but the rest of the situation doesn't make a huge amount of sense without that. He's read her confidentiality agreement, and - like she said - it's not like she could easily report him to any authorities about it here, even if the murder-involving part makes it a reportable thing, and it's not clear what any authorities on her world could do about it. 

"Altarrin, as I said." Proooobably Ramona does not need a rundown of every name he's gone by in his previous incarnations. "I am an Archmage-General of the Eastern Empire, and have been since before Bastran became Emperor; I was among those who selected him as a candidate and mentored him. ...I am also immortal, and about seven hundred years old. I was one of the founders of the Empire, in the aftermath of a Cataclysm that nearly destroyed civilization on this continent and was - significantly my fault."

He's not going to get into the details just yet, Ramona asked for a 'little bit' and he doesn't love talking about it.

"Unfortunately, the local gods seem to be opposed to the rebuilding civilization part and regularly had me assassinated, which is much of why the Empire ended up as...paranoid...as it is now. I met Carissa when she unexpectedly appeared in my quarters from her world. This was obviously one of the most important events that had ever happened in Velgarth's history. The Emperor's court is not always a very safe place, the politics are - very ruthless. I tried to keep Carissa safe while I worked out a way to make her immortal as well, and decided how to use her magic and the knowledge she had obtained from the other other world, but it - did not entirely work. As Carissa said, there were some significant failures of communication about my intentions and plans." 

There's vastly more than that, of course. That'll probably do as a quick introduction. 

Ramona is writing furiously.

"Immortal... archmage... almost destroyed civilization... his fault..."

She looks up again and nods pleasantly.

"Thank you for summing up so concisely! I imagine it's not easy with seven hundred years of life!"

She looks at Bastran. He looks... less ready for this than the others.

Bastran hadn't wanted to go first either, but having to follow that up is kind of intimidating. He's also simultaneously grateful to both Caris and Altarrin for downplaying how much the Events were a direct result of him being an idiot, but now HE has to be the one to say words about it with his mouth and that's terrible. 

"Uh. Bastran. I've been the Emperor for a decade or so. I'm also a mage, that's usual. I - guess I met Caris when he decided to seduce me. It...was pretty obvious he wanted to seduce me because I'm the Emperor, but if I turned down people for that I would literally never have any romantic relationships, so. Caris was - very good at seduction. ...I prefer men, which nobody exactly minds or anything - the Emperor can do what he wants, I guess - but is really inconvenient for marrying and having an heir, so Caris was going to offer a solution to that. There was some really bad timing with Altarrin and an obvious-godplot assassination, he actually made it out but we all thought he was dead at the point when Caris revealed the, uh, stuff. And I guess neither of us was really paying attention to how Caris - Carissa - actually looked very suspicious to the Office of Inquiry when they were investigating Altarrin's 'death'. There was some godnudging there, for sure, they ended up thinking he was probably an agent of a torture god from his world, even though he obviously isn't. So, uh, their combat mages were planning to burst into my quarters and arrest Caris as soon as he was alone, which I had no idea about, but I guess Altarrin - despite being really badly injured in one of his secure bases that he has 'cause of the being immortal - was scrying the Palace and realized, and Gated in to warn Caris to run. Assuming he was going to die, you're really not supposed to Gate into the Emperor's bedroom and there are countermeasures, but..."

Helpless shrug. "He comes back and Caris doesn't, I guess he thought it was worth it. Anyway, we had Altarrin as a prisoner, dying, and Caris was on the run but negotiated to use healing magic from his world to save him, and Altarrin was questioned by the Office of Inquiry for days about Caris while I negotiated with Caris about surrendering. Which was a really bad idea from his perspective, but I - think he didn't have a choice, he was under the standard loyalty compulsions to the Empire. ...I was kind of horrible to both of them, because I was terrified, but that's not much of an excuse." 

That isn't even all the things, somehow, but he's been rambling for a while and should probably wrap up. 

"- And eventually after he surrendered for interrogation, I managed to mostly convince my advisors that he's not here to take over or destroy the Empire, and we freed him and reinstated Altarrin to his position. I think both of them are understandably unhappy with me about things, though." 

Bastran's story made somewhat less sense to Ramona... what's a godnudge?... but honestly there are tons of things that don't make sense yet. She's not going to chase them all down right now. The point of the introductions is not really to build a picture in Ramona's head of the exact sequence of events that occurred, it's to get everyone talking and slightly less anxious, and give Ramona a chance to see how they hold themselves. Are they tense, are they confident, are they pissed off? At each other, at themselves?

So far Ramona's seeing a lot of tension and a lot of shame and regret. Not a lot of finger-pointing so far.

It's probably hard for any of them to get back that light, zingy, world-is-full-of-joy-and-possibility feeling Carissa was longing for, when there are black clouds following everyone around.

"Thank you, all of you. I can see that none of this is very easy to talk about and I really appreciate you being here and telling me about it. That takes some courage."

"I want to start by asking each one of you - how do you feel about being here, talking to me, even though we didn't actually do anything yet?"

How does she feel? Carissa has very rarely in her life had occasion to think about this. It is not the sort of thing that is supposed to matter if you're not a toddler. Abrogail cared about it but Abrogail was - well, Abrogail.

How does she feel? ... an expectation that actually the current balance of understanding about whose fault everything was is favorable to her because she's the best at lying, and a candid account of everything will be less to her advantage. An expectation that something bad will happen. Frustration about the universe which gets quickly diverted away because one shouldn't feel frustrated with anything that powerful. Awareness that this is the logic that causes one to work for a torture god. 

Wow, no wonder she doesn't usually do feeling things, it seems super counterproductive. "I feel fine."

Carissa is definitely much more guarded around the other two. She wasn't exactly emoting wildly even when she was alone, but when she talked about what she wanted there was some force and passion behind it, and she seemed to be in some mildly visible distress. Now that Altarrin and Bastran are here, Carissa's mask is firmly in place.

Ramona doesn't challenge it.

Altarrin is pretty sure that that was - not the kind of answer Ramona was hoping for. He's going to try to make his more informative. 

"I - am definitely somewhat distracted by the implications of there being a fourth world we can reliably access. And I suspect I am going to be a little on edge because I am - used to interference from the local gods whenever I do anything interesting. ...I am not nervous about answering questions, I think, just about the general background threat level, which - to be clear I think the odds that we will be disturbed here are very low and feeling tense about it is not very reasonable, I just have - certain past experiences and priors about this." A slight shrug. "I am not really sure how to talk about relationships or improving them, but I assume you have a plan for guiding us through that." 

He's also pretty worried about Bastran, who looks miserable about being here and is definitely the one who's been coping the worst with the aftermath of Events. Altarrin doesn't think he's coping perfectly, or anything, but the main source of unhappiness is still being trapped in an Empire that he allowed to get driven into a corner of unpleasantness by the gods and that he doesn't see ever getting any better than this. He thinks he's mostly fine with how things are with Carissa. He would probably be mad at Bastran, actually, but that would conflict too hard with being worried. 

Altarrin is shaping up to be the Adult In the Room. Ramona can't tell yet if he's actually significantly more developed or if he's playing a role. She'll wait and see.

(Well, he is the only one of them who's seven hundred years old. That helps.) 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. 

...Bastran can also tell that Ramona is looking for answers that mention actual feelings and he wants her to think that he's good at this, it's just terrible that "this" is saying words about his feelings, which are all stupid.

"I'm - this is definitely uncomfortable? Which I guess I expected it to be. It's fine, it's - it'll be worth it if it makes things better afterward." 

"So a range from 'fine' to 'uncomfortable.' That's all pretty normal. Even in my culture, where going to relationship therapy is a pretty normal thing, people feel pretty anxious about it. I imagine it's much stranger for you. I'm gathering that you don't particularly have this in the cultures you're from, and you're not sure what to expect -- so let's talk about that a little bit."

"I don't particularly have goals for you, except to support you in your goals. Generally people who come to me want to find more peace, satisfaction, joy, or something like that in their relationships - or they want to have less conflict, hurt, disappointment, anger, that kind of thing. They want to fight less and feel better. The details vary but those are the broad themes."

"I also help people with their sex problems. Sometimes the sex problems are connected to the relationship problems, or sometimes they're totally independent. Sometimes they're physical, sometimes psychological, sometimes relational, often a combination."

"But whatever you've got going on, it's for you to decide what you want and for me to help you get that." 

"So, let's do a thought experiment."

"Imagine that we work together for a while. We meet several times, in various combinations, and we talk through everything. And then one day, it's our last meeting. The reason it's our last meeting is because we are done. We have succeeded. You got what you came for. Therapy has worked!"

"How do you know that you're done? What is different, either within you or between you?"

That's pretty straightforward. Some of it feels more awkward to talk about to Bastran's face but they're going to have to get that out of the way sooner or later. 

"I want Caris to be safe and happy, and feel secure in whatever arrangements he decides would make sense with Bastran, and to be in a good position to someday become a Lawful god and build us an afterlife. I think we have not really talked through - what mistakes we think we each made - especially not in terms of their interpersonal effects. I would like to actually finishing have the conversation with Bastran about - leaving the Empire - and for the conclusion to be that it is much better for all of our goals if I can go freely. ...I want Bastran to be all right, I am not sure if he is any less trapped by the Empire than I was - am - and I think I owe him an apology for that, since I built the stupid Empire, but I have not at any point figured out how to say it. I think that would be most of the things?" A slightly rueful smile. "Though it might be that many of them cannot be accomplished just via relationship counseling." 

Altarrin is so reassuring, that question had Carissa near completely at a loss. "I want to become immortal and eventually a god and give everyone afterlives," she confirms. "I want to - "not have it be the case that I leave people who are kinder and less broken and better than I am deeply traumatized in my wake wherever I go, not have it just be true that I am a terrible idea to trust -.

"I want to be competent operating in contexts that aren't Cheliax where assuming everyone is out to get you is occasionally incorrect. I want to have interesting sex where both parties have the same basic understanding of what's happening in the world? Not that I want to stop having sex that is part of elaborate months-long manipulations but I am worried it's bad for me if it's the only kind I have? I want to, uh, be corrected and perfected in the purifying flames of Hell?"

" - I am aware, to be clear, that the flames of Hell don't actually do that. I just wish they did."

(Being corrected and perfected in the purifying flames of Hell, even the hypothetical version that somehow actually did that, is almost certainly not on offer as part of relationship counseling anyway. Altarrin is pretty sure.) 

Well that's mortifying. Altarrin wants reasonable mature well-thought-out things, and even Caris wants things that he can talk about and not sound like an idiot. Bastran just...wants everything to be the way it was a few months ago, when Caris was his fascinating compelling wonderful lover and nothing was more complicated than that, and he wants to do it all over but this time without any of the stupid mistakes, and he wants Caris to trust him and think he's competent, and he wants Altarrin not to be miserable about the Empire and he wants the Empire to be worth it.

Bastran is pretty sure that ABSOLUTELY NONE of those are possible to have at all, because they're - wanting basic facts about reality to be different. They are definitely not things Ramona can give him by being good at relationship advice. 

"I'd want to...deserve Caris' trust, I guess? And I want to - learn how to stop hurting people I care about." There, he said it. He's quietly dying on the inside but at least he said words? 

Ramona has been taking notes and keeping score. How many clients want each goal?

- Caris/sa to be immortal and/or a deity: 2
- Stop damaging other people: 2
- Someone else to feel or be a certain way: 1
- Hash through old mistakes: 1
- Sex occurring in a shared context: 1
- To be corrected and perfected in the purifying flames of Hell: 1

Goals that all three clients want: 0

This is not Ramona's first time at the circus, though admittedly this one's high wire act is higher than most. It's not unusual for clients to have disparate goals. She can pull these together.

"It sounds like there's quite a lot of work to do here. You want to repair old injuries. You want to understand how and why you hurt other people, so you can stop doing that. You all expressed some version of wanting the others to feel safer and more secure, but you did it in a smart way. You didn't just say, 'Feel safer!' You said, 'I want to figure out how to change my own behavior so other people can rightfully feel safer with me."

"Most of all, I notice that your goals are complimentary. Nobody named anything that's in direct conflict with what someone else wants. That's a really good starting point."

"And more good news: a lot of what you want is possible to achieve in therapy."


"I admit that I do not know how to arrange for someone to be corrected and perfected in the purifying flames of Hell, that is a new one for me, and I'm not totally sure it's something I want to bring about, but it sounds like you didn't mean that one literally, Caris, so I'm going to let it go for now and maybe ask you more about it later."

"And I also don't know how to make someone a deity, but I have the impression you have your own way forward on that."

"Yes, I was not expecting relationship therapy to cause that." Except by giving her access to Earth, which may well be decisive. She's absolutely not going to say that. "The flames of Hell literally exist but I do not think they will solve any of my problems at this point."

"- In Carissa's world, to be clear. I am quite confident they do not exist in Velgarth and have no reason to expect they would exist for Earth, although I suppose I could check if you wanted to know." 

Ramona is nonplussed that Hell apparently does exist on some worlds if not others? She spent a lot of time unwinding childhood programming about that and if it turns out that there really is a Hell, well, that would be upsetting. To put it mildly.

"Huh. Actually. Yes? If you could look into it I would be very interested to know that important information!"

"All right, next question. This one can take a while."

"I need to know about all the major problems in your relationships with each other, but if I just ask you to start telling me the problems, it usually doesn't go very well. Asking straight up often leads to hurt feelings and out of control conversations, or just silence."

"So instead I ask the question inside out."

"Someone will go first. Let's say... Bastran."

Bastran is not a random choice.

"Bastran, you'll tell me the top three or four concerns or complaints you think the other people have about you. These might be complaints Caris has about you, or Altarrin, or both. You may or may not agree that the complaints are valid."

"While Bastran is talking, I'll ask Altarrin and Caris to remain silent and just listen - it's not a team exercise. I want to know what Bastran thinks you think of him."

"Once Bastran is done naming his three or four things, and I've talked with him a bit about them, then I'll give Caris and Altarrin a chance to weigh in."

"When we're all done with that, then we'll do the same exercise from the other two points of view."

"Are there any questions? If not, you can go ahead, Bastran."

Oh no this is terrible. Why can't Altarrin go first, Altarrin is emotionally competent. 

Okay. Deep breath. He's maybe going to take fifteen seconds to put his thoughts in order, first, hopefully that's allowed.

"I think Caris thinks I'm less trustworthy than Altarrin and less - able to keep people safe if I say I'm going to? Which is - probably true, to be clear, I'm not arguing with it. I think Caris thinks I'm hurting Altarrin by trying to keep him in the Empire, and that it's - selfish of me to say I need him to do my job, just because my job is really hard, and - I guess probably thinks it's a sign of me being less competent, that I don't feel like I can be a good Emperor without Altarrin's advice?"

This is the WORST EXERCISE IN THE WORLD.

"...I think Altarrin probably isn't actually mad at me, he - doesn't do that, mostly," it's because of the emotional competence and probably also the being a 700-year-old immortal who isn't entirely a normal human being anymore. "But I think I hurt him a lot, by - going along with the Office of Inquiry wanting to be maximally paranoid and keep him prisoner under a ton of mind-affecting compulsions while they questioned him for days. And he'd agree with that, just - probably isn't mad and doesn't think it's - productive to blame me about it or anything." Because Bastran is not emotionally competent and not 700 years old. "Uh. I think Altarrin thinks I'm wrong that the Empire is where he can do the most good for the world, and that I'm harming the - things we both actually care about - because I have the power to give him orders and I'm using it to make him stay."  

There that was four things aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Ramona asked Bastran to go first because he's the most anxious, and if someone else went first, he wouldn't listen to what they were saying at all, he'd just sit there fretting about what he was going to say when it was his turn.

"Well done, thank you, that's very helpful. Let's take them one at a time, so I can understand them a little bit better."

This is partly because Ramona does actually need to start tracking details now, and partly because the more a person can take responsibility for their own mistakes and say them clearly out loud, the less other people need to explain the mistakes later, and it's better for everyone if the culprit does the explaining than if someone else does.

And also it's kind of cool when the person talking is just wrong and the other people get a chance to hear all the weird made-up shit their partners were thinking.

"So the first one was: You think that Caris would say you're not trustworthy and can't keep people safe. Which people? Safe from what? How do you think Caris would answer that?"

"...I don't know if Caris would say I'm not trustworthy period?" Even if he DESERVES IT. "But - we talked about it, when we were negotiating for him - her at the time, I guess, she was talking to me as Carissa then." Probably to make it less weird but it did not really make it less uncomfortable. "About surrendering back to the Empire so we could finish investigating the attempt on Altarrin's life. And Carissa didn't trust me to - get it right, to be able to actually stop the gods from using my people as a tool to kill her. Trusted Altarrin more, we only agreed on something once I let Altarrin have all the impairing mind control taken off so he could check. Altarrin's - obviously better at it, he's has more practice and he's - the sort of person who gets to be 700 years old in the first place." 

Awkward shrug. "I think Caris would say I'm pretty trustworthy. He was willing to negotiate about trying to save Altarrin's life, and about surrendering at all. Just. It's - it feels like it shouldn't take that much skill to keep someone safe from the gods in the Empire. Our entire goal is keeping the gods away and I'm the Emperor. Just. I'm not actually good enough at that." 

"Okay, so it's not so much that you lie or go back on your word or those other forms of not being trustworthy. It's a question of... can you get it done. Can you protect Caris from the gods. Are you powerful enough, effective enough, to do that. Or not."

Ramona keeps watching Bastran's face while she says it back to him, looking for signs that she's on the right or wrong track.

"So maybe the idea of 'trust' comes in if you and Caris have different estimates of your own power. Like if you think you've got the goods, and Caris doesn't think so, or fears that you don't. And then something that's already a very high stakes situation is even higher stakes, because it's not just Caris's life you're trying to save, it's Caris's good opinion of you and your effectiveness and your judgment."

"Is that right? Am I getting it?"

Ramona is basically just putting the string "protect Caris from the gods" where she would ordinarily say, for example, "remember to pick up groceries for dinner" in a more typical therapy session. It's fine.

"...Yeah, I think that's mostly it. I guess Caris might worry I would go back on my word if - something happened that looked suspicious and scary enough, and all of my other advisors were saying Caris was obviously out to destroy the Empire and hand it to Asmodeus– uh, the torture god from his world. Um. I think it might be true that I wouldn't - be confident enough that I was right about Caris, if enough people thought I was wrong? And Altarrin would be, Altarrin would never betray Carissa after he gave his word. But - I think I might be strong enough to not do it either, and I'm not sure if that would actually be one of Caris' complaints," it just feels like he DESERVES IT and has demonstrated to Caris that he can't reliably make promises. Possibly that isn't true but it feels like it's true. 

Another helpless shrug. "I think it is just true that I'm not effective enough, even if I really should be powerful enough, I - can't argue with that. It's a pretty big thing to ask someone to trust you with."

It is kind of obvious from Bastran's face that this does NOT MAKE IT BETTER and also that he has deeply conflicted feelings as he's saying that he really should be powerful enough. 

"Oh I see, so there's another layer here. It's not just, can you stand up to the gods. It's also, are you going to go to bat for Caris against your advisors. So maybe you think Caris's fear is that you're too easily swayed, or something? Like powerful voices around you can push you this way or that way, and so just because you swore to Caris you'd have his back doesn't mean you're really going to do that. Not if someone else talks to you and changes your mind. Something like that."

Ramona judges from Bastran's face that she's zeroed in on what he was saying, well enough for now anyway. She turns to Caris.

"Caris, how did Bastran do? Did he describe a real concern that you have about him? Is there anything you want to add or edit about his description?"

"Don't worry about the other three things Bastran named, we'll come back for those. Right now it's just about this question of trustworthiness and keeping you safe, and being able to stand firm rather than sway in the wind."

" - he did a really good job, right. I'm alive. He could've - I'm sure some people advised him not to go through with letting me heal Altarrin, or to kill me once he took me prisoner, and he didn't listen. I was worried that he would, but he didn't, so. I guess I'm not as worried about that anymore. 

It's not his job, right, to keep me safe. It's his job to run the Empire. It's my job to keep me safe. I don't actually know if he listens to his advisors too much or too little, he'll also get killed if he's not paranoid enough and that'll be - even worse for my safety. I guess I don't feel - sure he'll be okay. And it'd be - good if I knew that more confidently. And I mostly feel sure I'll be okay because I'm out of Jacona and the people in his court who want me dead can't find me. But it's a - very hard job, right, it's not like I think I'd do better at it, except by not being so Good and so not spending as much time being sad about it."

"Okay. So it sounds like Bastran accurately described a real thing, a real area of concern, but... he's overestimating how big a deal it is to you now? Like maybe this concern has actually already been partially put to bed, and maybe you give Bastran a lot more credit than he thinks. You think it's complicated, and he's doing his best, and his best is actually pretty good?"

"Yes. Almost no one - would have been worth even trying to negotiate with to heal Altarrin. Almost no one would've - stuck with it."

Ramona turns back to Bastran.

"What do you make of that, Bastran? Can you take in what Caris is saying, that he thinks you actually did a pretty good job there?"

Squirm. "...I - appreciate it? I was trying really hard, and - I wasn't sure it would end up working out, but I'm glad everyone is okay now. ...I do, uh, think that Caris has appallingly low expectations of how trustworthy you should expect someone to be as, uh, a basic human decency thing. Because of growing up in the country ruled by the torture god, and stuff." 

"While you may well be onto something there, Bastran, I'm going to take that question and save it for later, when we're focusing on Caris!"

Ramona does think Bastran might just have a point, but she also notices how fast Bastran took the spotlight off himself and put it on somebody else. Ramona's going to shine it right back on Bastran again.

"Let's go to the second concern you named."

Ramona consults her notes.

"You said you think Caris thinks you're being selfish by requiring Altarrin to stay close, something about Altarrin helping you with your job as Emperor. I don't really understand what's going on there. Can you explain? What, if anything, are you doing to keep Altarrin close to you, and what do you think Caris thinks about that?"

"....I mean. Altarrin is under compulsions to be loyal to the Empire and to me and to obey Imperial orders - and to not try to have any of those removed - that's standard, the early Emperors figured out pretty quickly that the gods could sneak people in as assassins way too easily if we didn't do that. But, uh, I made the decision that he needed the compulsions back, even if it's mostly that it would look really bad to the Office of Inquiry if they caught him without them right after I just leaned on them a lot to clear him in the investigation. Uh. And I am kind of the only person who could - make the decision to stop doing that. Because everyone else has to obey me." 

"I'm going to have to ask some questions now that are just coming from... me being from another planet and having no idea what you're talking about. Please bear with me!"

"So... compulsions. I'm guessing that's, like, magic that makes you do things. And it's standard in your Empire that... certain people? Advisors? Mages? Explain this part to me... Certain people should be under compulsions, to avoid treachery."

"So I think the part I don't get is, if it's standard, what's the argument for making an exception here?"

Right. Ugh this is terrible. She's probably JUDGING him for running an empire that runs mostly on mind control. Aaaaaaaaaah. 

"That's right. They can make you do things, or prevent you from doing things. Sometimes they prevent you from having certain thoughts, though that's mostly the prisoner ones and not the standard court ones. A lot of them affect motivation, though I think Altarrin has, uh, a lot of practice at thinking around that. It applies for mages and advisors and nobles, and - pretty much anyone who's going to be at court anywhere near the Emperor or other important people, that includes servants and stuff, but outside the capital it's mostly nobles and mages unless the nobles and mages decide they want to compulsion their servants themselves." 

He closes his eyes. "...The argument for making an exception is if it would serve the Empire better in the long run for Caris to be immortal and work with Altarrin on becoming a god and fighting the other gods to make them leave us alone and let us have civilization without trying to crush it. I - think there is an argument - but I'm -  I - I guess I'm scared. That Altarrin won't actually be able to do that, I guess, and will just get himself destroyed. And that I won't be able to be a good Emperor and do right by the Empire without the Altarrin's advice. 

- just to be clear, I do also have a compulsion. Only one, though, to serve the good of the Empire. I could decide that it served the greater good of the Empire to let Altarrin leave." 

"I think I'm starting to understand how this works, but I'm still confused about one part. The compulsions make Altarrin be loyal to you and obey your orders. How is that at odds with Caris being immortal and working on becoming a god and all the rest of that? Did you order Altarrin not to do those things? Is the compulsion the problem, or the order?"

"I'm currently asking– ordering, I guess - Altarrin to stay at his post in the capital and do the job he had before. He's good at it - he has an important role in our government, he's on the council - and he also does a lot of other work on the side. He's - it was really obvious, when we thought he was dead and later when he was - out of commission - how big a hole that left. I know it's not what he wants to be doing and he's kind of miserable but I'm scared a lot of things would fall apart if he just disappeared. ...I told him I needed at least six months but I would rather five years."

He would kind of rather that Altarrin change his mind about leaving at all, actually. 

Shrug. "I think he also wants the compulsions off, so he can - think more clearly about big problems like fighting gods. That's a separate problem." 

"Oh, so, it's not that helping Caris work on immortality and godhood is disloyal to you or against your orders. It's that Altarrin would have to physically leave the capital to go do that, and devote his time and energy to do that, and that's the conflict. He can't do both jobs because he doesn't have time, and he can't physically be in two places at once. There's a choice there, and you're making it for him."

"Do I finally have it?"

Nod. 

She probably thinks he's clearly the entire problem and the worst person in this situation, doesn't she

"How do you think Caris would explain why you're making that choice? I think you said selfishness? Or maybe, over-dependence on Altarrin to run the Empire?"

Ramona is also really wondering now... if going and working on godhood requires Altarrin to leave, it probably also involves Caris leaving. And then... Bastran would be lonely?

Maybe this is not so much about not knowing how to run the Empire without Altarrin as it is about not having his favorite person/people around?

It's a theory without a ton of evidence so far but Ramona will be watching to see if it's confirmed or disproved as she goes along.

"...I'm not actually sure what Caris would say, I was - guessing. I do think Caris would probably say that I'm - thinking short-term, and should try to look at the bigger picture? I - it feels like Caris should be mad at me for making Altarrin miserable but I'm not actually sure he would - think that's a reasonable way to feel."

In a very small voice, 

"I did let Caris leave. And took off the loyalty compulsions." 

(Caris is still technically under some compulsions not to assassinate him or sabotage the Empire's infrastructure, but also expressed the intention to cast Dispel Magic on himself every so often, so who knows if that's even still true right now. Bastran could check in five seconds with mage-sight but he...hasn't, for some reason.) 

"Oh, I see! Right. Because I guess Caris has this tower now, and it's not in the capital. Got it. I am slowly putting the pieces together."

Ramona draws attention to her own plodding way of understanding to draw the spotlight off Bastran for just a moment and let him take a breath.

"It sounds like you're actually not sure what Caris thinks of this, but you think it's high on Caris' list of concerns or complaints. Let's see what Caris has to say about it."

"Caris? How is Bastran's understanding of this one? Is it a big concern for you that Bastran is keeping Altarrin at the capital? What story do you have about that, why do you think Bastran is doing it?"

" - I mean, yes. Because with Altarrin's help I can become immortal and without it - I don't know. I am much less likely to. 

I don't actually care about the Empire - I'm not under motivation-affecting compulsions anymore - but I do care about the fact that all of the people here die and the gods recycle their souls without any memories. I care a lot about that. And I can probably fix it once I'm a god, and no one else can except Altarrin. And - every person who dies, they're dying because Altarrin's busy doing - paperwork, and menacing people, and picking out what his subordinates are leaving out of their reports, and none of it matters. 

If I'd let him die he'd be back by now, probably, and that'd be - better. I feel pretty upset about that."

"So you think Bastran's being... shortsighted?"

" - actually I think he just doesn't care about everybody dying?"

This is not adding up. Why is Bastran keeping Altarrin at the capital?

1. Bastran is shortsighted, aka stupid. No.
2. Carissa's theory: Bastran doesn't care about everybody dying. Hmmm. Need to ask more about this, but even if there's something to it, it wouldn't stand alone.
3. Bastran feels unprepared to run the empire without Altarrin. Maybe this factors in but Ramona thinks Bastran can figure it out, and that Bastran knows he can figure it out.
4. Bastran wants to keep Altarrin close for, like, friendship reasons or something? This was more compelling when Ramona thought Caris was also being held close, but still worth looking at.
5. Bastran doesn't actually want Caris to become immortal and a god? Not because that would be object-level bad for the Empire... it sounds like there's a lot of potential to unlock there... but maybe for relationship reasons?
6. ... Other ... ?

"So Caris, you think there's a values difference here. You can make a big difference to Bastran's people if you become more powerful, by... stopping them from dying. Or doing something better with their souls. Or something. We'll come back to that."

"And you think Bastran doesn't actually think that's important, or not as important as you think it is."

"That could be! People often do have values differences."

"He hasn't asked Altarrin to make him immortal, even though that's obviously good for the Empire."

...Bastran shivers slightly. 

(It would be good for the Empire, is the stupid thing. Caris is making an actually good point, and yet it never occurred to him, because - why? Because he doesn't want that to be true? ...Because being immortal at all sounds - exhausting, mostly - and being immortal specifically for the good of the Empire sounds worse. It’s an honor to be Emperor and it also matters that someday he’s going to be done.)

Bastran shrugs, awkwardly. “I don’t think I really want to be immortal. Obviously other people can want it, and it’s - better if it’s an option, but…” He’s not sure where he was going with that sentence, and trails off.

Obviously people sometimes just...have different preferences...but Altarrin is worried about Bastran and this is one of the reasons why. 

"I agree that Caris becoming immortal before the gods find him is a high priority, and very important for the future of Velgarth." Glance over at Caris. "I think that part, I probably can manage to help with even if I am mostly working from Jacona? Even if I spend twelve candlemarks a day focused on the duties of an Archmage-General - which is, I think, already showing more commitment to the work than some of Bastran's other advisors - that still leaves eight candlemarks a day to work on Caris' immortality setup. And I do have freedom of movement, once I reach a point where I need to work closely with Caris I could Gate over to the tower for that and be back by morning." To Ramona, "- Caris can make artifacts that let someone be rested on only two candlemarks of sleep per night." 

Wow. Bastran doesn't really have a leg to stand on, he hadn't even noticed that Altarrin was taking so much time away from his duties to work on his other projects - and it's not like he doesn't spend a lot of time doing useless things like taking long baths and playing music so he can face council meetings - but he is somehow still kind of hurt. He tries not to show it. 

"Anyway. I agree it will slow the research down, and it would be better to complete it as fast as possible. And I am not making all that much headway on plans for creating a god, including the route where Caris ascends. I do think I need my full attention for that, and would prefer not to wait five years." 

"Bastran, it sounds like you were right that Caris does object to your strategy of keeping Altarrin at the capital - and you were also right about Altarrin agreeing, and thinking that you don't have your priorities straight, that he could be doing more good elsewhere."

"So good news, that's three done, and just one more to go. The last one we haven't talked about yet is that you think you hurt Altarrin a lot during the time when he was under lots of compulsions and being questioned. And you said you don't think he's angry or blaming you, just that he's hurt. Can you say more about that before we check in with Altarrin?"

Bastran takes a deep breath and tries to force himself to un-grit his teeth. 

"So the context is that the Office of Inquiry was suspicious of Caris being, uh, an agent of Asmodeus and also mind-controlling me with undetectable otherworldly mind-control powers - which is sort of unfalsifiable, right, and it's their job to be as paranoid as possible and consider the worst case scenarios, it's my job to - push back on that, if I think being that paranoid does more harm than good, but - it all came out of the blue and I was scared too. And then Altarrin had basically suicidally Gated in to get a warning to Caris - and we didn't know he was immortal, at the time, so it looked even more insane - and in general it...seemed impossible to me that Altarrin would be disloyal to the Empire unless he was mind controlled into it, and we thought it might be contagious mind control. So we - really weren't taking any chances. I knew no one was even explaining to him what was going on - even that Caris was still alive - and I knew he would hate that so much, and I wasn't even really thinking about whether it was worth that. I thought about writing a letter - I think I owed it to him to go in person, but I couldn't safely go in person from what we knew at the time, and then I sat down to try to write a letter and couldn't think what to say and gave up."

Wow that was incredibly incoherent, and now he's embarrassed about that too and it's even harder to focus. 

"- I think I had sort of decided that - there were too many other constraints and too many things to prioritize, and one of the things I could most get away with not prioritizing for a week was - caring about whether Altarrin was having a really awful time. Because I thought he would be fine no matter what. And I think he was kind of not fine afterward. I - I feel awful about it now, but at the time I think I was actually kind of mad about it, because I needed someone to do his job, and I think that was - a pretty horrible thing to think?"

Shrug. "I think Altarrin wouldn't be angry because he doesn't think that being mad at people or blaming them ever helps." 

"One of the things I'm confused about here is whether this is really on Altarrin's list of complaints about Bastran, or just on Bastran's list of complaints about Bastran. Because we would deal with those two things differently. And of course it might be both."

"So, Altarrin, help us out -- how do you think about Bastran's actions during that time? Were you hurt or angry, and are you still? Did you blame Bastran at the time, and do you still? What repair work is needed between you two, if any?"

Altarrin blinks. 

(He's maybe showing some sign of an actual emotional reaction, for pretty much the first time. He looks...tired, mostly. Definitely not angry.) 

"I mean, it was very unpleasant? I was definitely miserable and hurt while it was happening, especially because I had no idea what was going on elsewhere, and I needed some time afterward to recover, I asked Bastran for two days. I am fine now, and I was not really angry with Bastran even at the time. Most of it was the result of the way the Empire is - the way the Office of Inquiry is, especially - and I built that. I deliberately made an institution that would be maximally hostile and paranoid toward 'enemies of the state', because I thought it would be justified overall in fewer assassinations, and it would be silly to complain once I was an enemy of the state that their processes were unpleasant to experience. I think it is mostly not helpful to consider it Bastran's fault, even if he could have done better by - being unusually heroic - I generally try not to expect people to be unusually heroic. 

- I wish he had written a letter. I had no idea he was considering it, and it would have helped." 

Bastran does NOT look as though hearing this is making him feel any better. 

"So to sum up, Altarrin, it was awful, you suffered a lot, and you see it as... just the way the Empire is. Just the way you made the Empire. Once the game board was set up that way, you experienced the inevitable result, and it didn't actually have a lot to do with Bastran."

"I just want to note here that we are not attempting to solve any problems or repair any hurts between you or assuage any guilt or any of that, right now. We will get to those steps later. All we are doing right now is trying to build a shared understanding of what the relational problems even are."

"And Bastran - you're not entirely unconfused about this. You think Caris and Altarrin want you to let Altarrin go focus on his other priorities, and you're absolutely right about that. The three of you don't agree yet about that issue and there's something to talk about there."

"But when it comes to how you treated both Caris and Altarrin during the crisis, and how you threaded the needle between what they wanted and the dictates of the Empire and your other advisors - they actually think you did a pretty good job in an almost impossible situation. You don't have a relational problem there. Your problem there is within yourself, not between you and Caris and Altarrin. Does that make sense?"

That is a bizarre way for things to be. "I - guess so?" 

It's stupid, how it manages to be hurtful that Altarrin doesn't expect more of him. Surely it's not 'unusually heroic' to be basically decent to your friends. And if the only reason Altarrin isn't angry is because he doesn't think Bastran owes him - friendship things - then that also kind of hurts, even if it's definitely not personal and it's just that Altarrin mostly doesn't do 'having friends.' 

He's friends with Caris, though, because Caris is better

"You don't seem sold. Tell me your objections? I want to hear."

“…I think it shouldn’t’ve needed to be unusually heroic, to - care enough to try not to hurt someone when it doesn’t even help. And I think I - want to be someone who can at least put some effort in, when it’s someone who’s put as much effort into making my life better as Altarrin has. It - feels like I must have disappointed him before, if he didn’t expect better of me now.”

"Thank you, that's helpful. Some of that is more of your own inner battles - but also you're surprised and hurt, by Altarrin's lack of hurt. We're definitely going to come back to that."

"Before we finish up with Bastran, I want to give Caris and Altarrin a chance to weigh in. Do you have any major concerns or complaints about Bastran that Bastran didn't bring up?"

"I mostly don't - think he ought to let Altarrin go, necessarily? He can do whatever he wants, I'm not Good, I don't think that I'm entitled to have other people want the things that I want. I would like it if he did, and I think a lot of people wouldn't die as a result, but if his answer is he doesn't care about that, well, that's fair? You can't demand people care about things? I think it'd be fine if he was like 'too bad, I don't care about your thing very much and I'm the Emperor', it's just hard to tell if that's actually what he thinks."

Altarrin looks thoughtful, then leans forward slightly. 

"I think it is just not true that I am disappointed in Bastran? I chose him as a candidate for Emperor - a lot of other people were involved, but I think it is still meaningfully true that I did the choosing, I have substantial influence over many elements of the Empire. I chose him for a job that I know is far harder and more unpleasant for people who - care about doing the right thing - and I chose him because he cares about doing the right thing, and his choices will affect thirty million people. I think he is doing a better job of that than my median expectation, and obviously that matters more to me than whether he takes extra time, during an emergency, to be kind to me personally." 

He looks down. "...I think it was a cruel thing to ask of him, in some sense. I think he would not have preferred a world where I chose someone else because being Emperor would make him unhappy, because we have mostly the same values. But I am definitely somewhat worried about Bastran's wellbeing, especially if I leave." 

...Okay. Wow. That's - actually really touching? And also Bastran really wishes Altarrin could have chosen literally any time to say it, that wasn't in front of the relationship therapist who is now ALSO probably going to have concerns about his wellbeing. The last thing Bastran wants to talk about here is his personal happiness or lack thereof. 

(Bastran...is mostly just not going to think about the thing Caris said, apparently.) 

"Good news, Bastran! The others do not have additional complaints to lay at your feet. Altarrin thinks you're doing a good job. Caris thinks you're entitled to your own point of view -- he's right about that, and that he knows it already is going to save me a ton of work!"

"And with that, your turn in the spotlight is over. For most people, this is the hardest part of the initial meeting, and you're finished with it now. Well done."

"If anyone needs a quick break, now is the time! And then we'll shift our attention to Caris."

Ramona stands up and stretches, takes a drink of her water, and rolls out her shoulders a bit. The anxiety of the morning melted away as soon as the session got started.

Oh good he can not do any talking for a while. 

"You know what to do, Caris. If I were to ask Bastran and Altarrin, what do you think their top three or four concerns or complaints about you would be?"

" - well, probably Bastran disapproves of how I want to steal Altarrin away, and is jealous that Altarrin wants to go? And Altarrin is too wise and ancient to have grievances with people rather than predictions about them. I feel like this is not actually the strongest complaint about me that one could have but I don't really want to list all of the strongest complaints about me one could have. Altarrin should be irritated about my seducing Bastran and nearly getting both of us killed, but he isn't.

I suspect both of them think I should be more Good but also it clearly makes them both miserable, so."

"Yeah, you don't need to list theoretical complaints that someone could have. Just working on your actual problems will be enough, without making up additional ones."

"So I heard:
1. You think Bastran doesn't want you to take Altarrin away.
2. You think Altarrin is... resigned, maybe... about your seduction of Bastran and the fallout from that.
3. You think they both wish you were more Good."

"Let's start with the second one, since I promised Bastran a break!"

"Altarrin? Do you wish Caris had done something different, instead of seducing Bastran? Do you have any lingering feelings about that, or hope for any change for the future?"

Altarrin thinks about this for almost thirty seconds before answering. 

"I think that if Caris had been more careful, a great deal of risk and messiness could have been avoided? If he had waited until he had a better understanding of what could go wrong when one attempts intrigue in the Empire. I think partly Caris felt rushed because I had failed to communicate that I was not going to just - get bored and stop protecting him, and that is on me, but I have a suspicion that Caris also wanted to - do something that felt adventurous and fun and impressive, instead of sitting around being small and harmless and dependent on my protection? I am not sure, those might be the wrong words, Caris would know better what he was thinking. - anyway, I did know about the plan, and I could have thought about it more and warned him, so some of that is also on me."

He sighs, very slightly. "I do not think I particularly have lingering feelings about it. We seem to have more or less resolved the - general difficulty in communicating - that led to me feeling pessimistic about any attempt to reassure Caris about my intentions or the security of his position. - I suppose I am still a little confused and curious about what changed, there. But - mostly I think Caris was always the one most at risk of enormous harm from his hasty decisions? If he had gotten killed, it would have been - not forever, I was going to fix it someday, but it might take me another thousand years to fix Velgarth alone and get him back. Whereas if I had gotten killed, I -" he looks down, "- would already be somewhere else, now, and no longer tied to the Empire." 

"It would've been better if I'd let him die. I had the thought at the time but - I wasn't very sure and I was scared I'd die before he came back."

Slight shrug. "I think it is genuinely not obvious? You might have died, and that would also have been very costly to the project we both care about - more than five years' worth of cost, and possibly more than the rest of this natural lifetime, which is the longest I would stay here even if Bastran never changes his mind. Also I think you would have more or less been forced by the compulsions to return to the Empire anyway, unless you had a plan for that which you never mentioned, and I think that went substantially better because you had taken a genuine risk to save my life, and earned some goodwill." 

"I... think I don't understand how you all think about death. You seem to have different rules about that. Altarrin is immortal, but Caris should have let him die? Caris is trying to become immortal? Bastran doesn't want to be? There's coming back from death? I am a little bit lost and need some help."

"If Altarrin dies in this body he'll come back. If Bastran or I die we won't. - I believe Altarrin that he'd try, eventually, but it's hardly the kind of thing you can expect to work, if I've been recycled ten times by then. 

I want to be immortal like he is, or - maybe there's even a better method, combining our magics. To have a system such that the destruction of my body does not entail losing myself."

Also Altarrin's immortality method kills teenage kids when he evicts them from their bodies, and he really thinks Carissa has no business calling him Good, but he is nnnnooot entirely comfortable saying that in front of the relationship counselor. 

"I think almost any problem can be solved, eventually. At the very least, there are other worlds, at least four of them and once you have personally learned of four I think you should assume there are thousands or millions, and some of them have different magic. But I would definitely prefer to solve it for Caris sooner, so we can solve it for everyone else. I - am not really sure I understand how Bastran feels on the topic. My prediction is that he - on some level feels he would be obligated to stay on as Emperor forever, if he were immortal, and understandably does not want that?" 

It might be mostly that. 

It's...probably not entirely that? 

Bastran is having kind of a lot of difficulty thinking about this topic, actually, possibly because the compulsion to serve the Empire does not like him thinking about there being an amount of serving the Empire that would be too much. His head hurts now. He doesn't say anything. 

(Yes, it's just as well that Altarrin not mention killing teenagers so he can use their bodies, Ramona would definitely have a WAIT HOLD EVERYTHING WHAT moment if she heard about that, and would have to think what to do about it, and ask a whole bunch more questions, and wrestle with her own personal philosophy and ethics, and let's just say it would derail the session.)

Ramona sees that Altarrin has lobbed a question at Bastran and Bastran isn't sure how to answer it and has a pained look on his face.

"We got a little off course, I think? Let me rewind a bit. We were talking about Caris's guesses about Bastran and Altarrin's complaints about him. And within that, we were taking a look at whether there is currently any problem remaining between Altarrin and Caris about Caris seducing Bastran. And if I understood correctly, that has been resolved to Altarrin's satisfaction."

"After that we talked a bunch about a bunch of other ways things could have turned out, and I got confused about how death works for you. And I'm still somewhat confused, but probably not in a way that matters right at the moment. I would like to table the discussion of all those hypotheticals and go back to Caris's list."

"Let's talk about whether Bastran and Altarrin wish Caris were more Good."

"Is Caris right about that? If so, what would it look like for Caris to be more Good, specifically? I am still learning what you all mean by Good and Evil but I bet there's more than one way to play it."

Bastran looks like he might need a minute before he's ready to answer. Altarrin can go.

"I - would not have phrased it that way? I think it is true that Caris was very shaped by growing up in Cheliax, and part of that is in the direction of - tending to consider his own impulses toward kindness to be a weakness that he should avoid? But the more inconvenient part for my purposes was his assumption that everyone else would be entirely out for themselves and ready to exploit any weakness, and this made it very frustrating to try to express that I actually genuinely wished us to be allies. I also think Caris considers torture to be - less damaging to people than it actually is? Which seems like partly having internalized the teachings of Asmodeus, and partly just Caris being a very unusual person, and either way I think the problem there is more specific than Caris not being Good." 

Another slight shrug. "I think I am still actually confused what Caris means by Good and Evil - perhaps partly because Cheliax deliberately confuses the distinction, since they are trying to make Evil seem appealing and I think it is just - not, usually, to most people. But the thing that matters to me is that Caris is committed to giving our world immortality or afterlives. It matters less to me whether wanting that technically counts as Good according to Golarion's system." 

"So in your view, Altarrin, a better version of Caris would be more open-minded about other people's motivations, and more aware that torturing people is actually just bad. Not Evil, but bad, leaves them less than they were before. Is that right?"

"What would be different for you if Caris shared your view on torture?"

Altarrin isn't totally sure he understood the question. "Caris' views on torture have not affected me, particularly. I suppose it means I would be more hesitant about, say, putting Caris in charge of running a justice system or something? I mostly expect Caris to change his mind on this eventually, since I think he is - at least paying attention to the question of whether torture is bad for people." 

"Oh, sorry, I phrased it poorly. I meant to say, how does it affect you, if Caris thinks of torture as not a big deal, or even helpful? Does it cause you any distress, or give you any problems that you now have to go solve? Does it affect the way you feel about Caris? You answered part of that when you said you wouldn't put Caris in charge of a justice system -- but if I've understood any of what you have been talking about, it sounds like you might be planning to put Caris in charge of much more than that?"

"I am not particularly distressed about it, no, it does not seem like that would help. I am not worried about putting Caris in charge of this world's afterlives, mostly because I expect that to take decades at the very least. And I think Caris is someone who - takes his responsibility to do right by other people seriously, and does better with more resources and power?"

He shakes his head slightly. "This is not something I think of as a serious problem? It it just something that comes to mind when you prompted me to think about ways that Caris could be more Good than he is now." 

"Got it, that helps!"

"What about you, Bastran? Is Caris right? Do you wish Caris were more Good? And if so, how?"

At least he managed to actually hear the question that time?

Still. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. 

Caris SHOUDLN'T be more Good, because then Caris would be  he absolutely cannot finish that thought, whatever it was supposed to be. 

He doesn't KNOW. He...probably had thoughts about this at some point...but he can't even slightly manage to retrieve them. 

"Um." 

Bastran looks to be in quite a lot of distress!

They are going to talk about emotion regulation and assessing one's own state of dysregulation in a later conversation, but Ramona and Bastran don't share any common language for that yet, so she's just going to have to try to bail him out within the conversation rather than popping up a level and talking explicitly about regulation.

She can explicitly engage in co-regulation, though. She does that by dropping her voice a little and making it deliberately slow and soothing. She uses small words. She doesn't ask any open ended questions.

"Hey. Bastran. It's okay. You're doing fine."

She waits a beat.

"It's okay if you don't know."

She waits another beat, and then decides to try something.

"I remember earlier, you said you think Caris sometimes has low standards, because of his upbringing?"

Ramona is not sure if that was too complicated a question. It might have been.

"...Yeah. I think Caris, uh, expects other people to be as horrible as they can get away with? I don't know if that's a way Caris isn't Good, it's not like he goes around being as horrible as he can get away with. I guess it's a way Caris doesn't expect other people to be Good? ...And I guess he sort of judges people for - not wanting to be horrible at all and actually wanting other people to be happy, and that's kind of tiring."  

Oh no that was probably an appallingly rude thing to say with Caris right there. Bastran really wishes he could just hide somewhere until he's capable of remembering to think of things like that before he says something. 

"Sounds like you were right, Caris, it is a little rough on Bastran that you two come from different... orientations, I guess is maybe the word? The Good/Evil thing does seem to be a bit of an issue between you."

"So that just leaves the first issue you brought up. Caris, you think that Bastran doesn't want you to 'take Altarrin away.' Which is interesting phrasing. When the other two were talking about it, it seemed like it was pretty much between them. Altarrin wants to go, and Bastran wants to keep him in the capital. And sure, Altarrin would be leaving to work on a project with you, Caris, or maybe on you, I'm a little unclear what's involved in making you immortal. But you seem to think Bastran sees you as the main actor there, the one 'taking' Altarrin. Is that right or am I reading too much into it?"

" - well, it's true that Altarrin wants to leave, and if you were just doing what Altarrin wants, you'd let him leave. And it's true that letting him leave probably lets us stop the deaths of lots of people, and if you only cared about that you'd let him leave. But I think on top of that Bastran's - jealous? That I trust Altarrin, that I risked my life for him? And so I think - it matters that it's me he'd be leaving to work with."

"Do you think Bastran sees it as a sign that you care more for Altarrin in some important way than you do for him? Or, that your caring for Bastran is not exclusive to him? Or something?"

(This is MISERABLE. Bastran would have thought he would be relieved to have a break from answering questions, but being talked ABOUT is almost as bad.) 

" - I think all men get jealous if their partner is deeply emotionally entangled with someone else? Probably Emperors more than most of them?"

(What does that have to do with being Emperor? Actually, Bastran is pretty sure that Emperors should live up to a higher standard in terms of not having stupid emotions about their romantic entanglements. He is absolutely capable of putting the feelings in the box when he's not trapped in a room doing romantic relationship counseling where the whole point is for all of them to talk about their feelings.) 

Ramona stifles the urge to respond with #NotAllMen because she's pretty sure they don't have hashtags on Velgarth.

"People vary more than you might expect! I don't take it as a given that Bastran feels exactly the way you expect that he feels, which is why we're checking!"

"Bastran? Would you be able to say something about Caris's theory that you're jealous of his trust for and 'entanglement with' Altarrin?"

"I should say that we're not going to dig deeply into it today, if it's true. Right now I'm just trying to map out all of the issues, put labels on the map of all the landmines."

Bastran did, actually, think about his feelings on this before! He can talk about his previous conclusions without having to figure out what he's feeling right now, that's much easier. 

"I'm glad that Altarrin can trust Caris and that Caris can trust him? I - they're both people I care about, and they - they've got a lot in common, really more than either of them has in common with me - and I think Altarrin was lonely before. I don't - I think it would bother me a bit if they were also, er, romantically involved," he means sex but that's somehow much worse to say out loud, "but I - think that's my problem and not theirs? I would get over it." 

He closes his eyes. "...I think it mostly bothers me that Caris doesn't trust me as much, even though - especially because - it's pretty reasonable of him not to. But that's - not really about Altarrin, it's - wishing I was better. I guess I probably spend more time dwelling on it because Altarrin is right there already being better, but it really, really wouldn't be better if Altarrin wasn't around." 

Ramona is pretty impressed by this answer! This shows more development on Bastran's part than she was previously giving him credit for.

She had actually gotten to the point before where she wondered what relationship glue might be holding Bastran and Caris together, and whether it would be enough, but this flash of maturity from Bastran gives Ramona hope that he's worthy of Caris's respect.

"It sounds like your feelings are a lot more mixed than Caris realized, or at least than he articulated to me."

"So Caris said he thinks it's a problem for you that Caris is 'taking' Altarrin away. Was he right about that?"

"I. Um. I really hadn't been thinking of it as Caris 'taking' Altarrin. I guess except maybe in a broader sense, that if Caris hadn't come to Velgarth then everything would be the way it was before and way less complicated. But then I wouldn't have met Caris, so I don't actually wish he hadn't come to this world." 

...He's going to stare determinedly at the floor rather than looking at anyone else while he tries to think. 

"...I think Altarrin hates the Empire now. And that bothers me, and it - happened because of Caris, somehow. If Altarrin hadn't learned - whatever it was that made him give up on the Empire he spent centuries building - then he wouldn't want to leave -" 

It felt like there was more of that thought but following it any further is definitely not happening and it slightly feels like he just stubbed his brain on a rock. 

"Oh wow. So this whole thing about Altarrin leaving the capital and going to work with Caris is potentially just a stand-in for that much larger issue!"

"Namely: that Altarrin might hate the Empire and Caris might have been the catalyst for that."

"That sounds really significant, if true!"

Ramona is not sure who she is addressing this to. The idea feels like a fruit so ripe that it might leak juice all over everything before you even get to bite into it. She's just going to leave the idea in the air for another minute and see what happens.

CONFUSED MISERY (Which Bastran is now actually trying to stay in control of, or at least keep thoroughly off his face, because he is an adult person and if he can handle four-hour war council meetings without leaking misery over everyone then he can surely manage this. Feelings go in box.)  

Altarrin definitely has some things he could say, but he's going to glance at Caris first. Caris also definitely has things to say, which might be more interesting than Altarrin's take on the whole situation. 

"I think most people would hate the Empire if they didn't have absurdly low standards or compulsions to serve it."

Ramona continues to do that therapist thing of remaining silent to see what else will happen.

Mostly, the way Altarrin feels about this topic is very, very tired. 

(It's a little difficult to talk about around the compulsions, but not very. Altarrin founded the Empire. The Empire he is and always was loyal to is the vision for what it was supposed to be, and that's not what it is now. He would run into trouble if Bastran gave him a direct Imperial order not to talk about it, but he really doubts Bastran is going to do that.) 

"...I do not hate the Empire, that seems like it would be - unhelpful. My attitude toward it did change when I met Caris. The important factors were learning about other worlds, which changes what other options I have, and - so one of the types of magic that exists in Caris' world, but not in this one, is spells to enhance mental abilities. I asked Caris to cast one that enhances 'Wisdom', which is - self-reflection, being more aware of your own thought patterns, noticing what you are avoiding looking at. I realized I had been avoiding noticing that the Empire is...stuck, that its current state is not the original vision of its founders, and it is not going to change. I suppose you could describe that as 'giving up' on the Empire, but - I think the current Empire has given up on itself, in a sense? Everyone educated has read the writing left by the founders. Everyone, if they bother to think about it, would know the Empire is - not that. I think we can do better– I think I can do better. I think I can do better by Bastran's standards, even if we assume he does not care about everyone being immortal and only wants the people of his Empire to have good lives. But I need more freedom to move." 

"- I think Bastran is not going to be able to participate in this conversation because of his compulsion to serve the Empire." 

"It doesn't matter if every single person in the world would be better off with something else. He's - not allowed to care. I don't think they would be better off with something else, yet, but - but having to be a shape that - doesn't have any dangerous thoughts -

- it's the way things are, in places like Cheliax and the Empire, and they lose, to places that let you think."

"Huh."

"I really wanted to ask if what Altarrin said was news to Bastran, but if Bastran can't actually hear / think about / process / respond to what you are saying, Altarrin, then I guess my question is moot."

"It is not unusually even on my planet to have subjects that people really struggle to think clearly about. What's unusual here is that there is a clear and specific source for the blockage. By the way, if I ask questions about the compulsions, am I running the risk of doing any damage to anyone's mind?"

"Not magical damage. It might cause Bastran a lot of distress." Altarrin shakes his head a little. "I will be fine and do not mind answering questions about it. I have more practice navigating the compulsions, and flexibility in how I interpret them - what I was saying before is not being disloyal to the Empire I committed to serve." 

"Mine aren't motivation-altering at all. I can't hurt the Emperor, of course, or resist if he decides to change them, but I can think whatever I want."

"Bastran, I am going to ask what the rules are about compulsions. It might end up causing you a lot of distress. Do you want to leave the room for a few minutes or would you rather stay here?"

Is he allowed to leave the room? That sounds great. A few minutes is probably long enough to get his head into slightly better order. He nods stiffly to Ramona and gets up. 

"Okay, so... can compulsions ever be removed? How? And what are the obstacles to doing so? Like is it a matter of 'the committee would never agree to that' or is it more like 'if anyone suggests it Bastran will then be forced to attempt to kill them' or what actually happens?"

"I should say that it is okay if the compulsions are permanent or if it's not within our power to alter them. But I had to ask!"

"Magically speaking, they can be removed easily by any mage, or with certain wizard spells from Caris' world." Nnnooot going to think too hard about specific occasions when this might have happened in the past, but his compulsions aren't objecting to just describing facts about the world. "It would obviously be a problem for the Empire if mages could do whatever they wanted to their and others' compulsions, so the standard compulsions, like mine, include one against tampering with the others, either oneself or by asking someone else. Bastran does not actually have the same setup, I think his compulsion is...differently self-protecting. Caris does not have the same setup." 

He says all of it in a very neutral tone, mostly not looking at Caris. 

"As a relationship therapist, it seems like an obvious good to me if people can actually hear what the others are saying and think clearly about it and respond to it. A few minutes ago, I witnessed you saying something, Altarrin, that was a statement of your values and preferences, and it looked to me like Bastran couldn't actually process it. You both are telling me that it's the compulsions that are preventing him from interacting with the information, and I'm provisionally believing you about that."

"So just from the narrow therapy perspective, it seems like removing whatever obstacle Bastran has to participating in the conversation, would be helpful and good, and I should try to bring it about if I can."

"But I worry that I'm way out of my depth here, that these compulsions are apparently centuries-old mechanisms for keeping the Empire running properly, that I might not understand all the downstream effects it would have to make such a move, and that I should not interfere."

"Also I'm not yet sure I have the power to make this happen even if I think it's a good idea."

"I would like to invite either of you to comment on anything I've just said, if you're able to do so safely."

"I can do an antimagic field just in this room. They'd come right back when Bastran and Altarrin left, so they wouldn't be - escaping them - but they'd be suppressed temporarily? I have the predictable complaints about this plan but I'll do it, if it seems like it'd help."

"It would be very messy if either of us returned to court," slight emphasis on that, "without the usual compulsions." Altarrin is notthinking about the silent implication that this objection doesn't at all apply here. 

"Have you experimented with removing compulsions temporarily before? I worry that it could damage their minds. I think about trying to cram something that has expanded back into a space where it no longer fits."

That sounds like it's addressed to Caris. Altarrin will leave it alone. (He could engage with the question, he's pretty sure, but in general he's been trying to conserve the limited wiggle room he can wrangle from his compulsion.)

"I think it's probably easier to be all right with your compulsions to the Empire if you don't remember what it's like not to have them? I - took Altarrin's off, once. He got them back. I guess it was bad for him. ..the current situation is also bad for Bastran."

"Why did Altarrin get his compulsions back, if it was bad for him to have to climb back into that box?"

"- I am not entirely sure. I think he thought it was worth - having the Empire as a resource to mine for spellsilver and stuff - and then once it was on he couldn't think about it anymore. Probably it was the wrong decision but it's not easy to vanish on your life's work overnight just because you noticed it's bad actually."

"Why was it a tradeoff to either be free of the compulsions or else have the Empire as a resource? Can others see, or check, whether the compulsions are in place as expected? Who are these others, anyway?"

"Yes, people in the Imperial court can tell. We'd have had to flee immediately."

"Okay and this is probably a ludicrous question, but I just have to ask: is this system just too big to change? Like, how many people are we dealing with, how much power do they have, is that power real and backed with force or is it pretend and backed with frowns? If the four people in this tower right now decided that compulsions were just a bad idea -- which, by the way, I do not know at all at this point -- is there any way in which we could just change how things are done?"

"Again, I am not advocating that we do that, there is much that I don't understand. But I do like to know which of the obstacles my clients believe in are really there and which ones dissolve when you look straight at them."

Ramona is talking to Caris but sneaking glances at Altarrin to see if he seems to be getting a sudden headache or anything. She hasn't particularly figured out how to read him yet. She's not sure if it's because he's so grounded all the time that there's nothing to read or if he's mastered the external manifestation of his feelings. Or it could be a cultural thing -- but Bastran was easy, so probably not that.

Altarrin is only about 50% paying attention to the conversation; he's hearing Ramona's questions but not considering himself particularly responsible for answering, or trying to think too hard about how he would answer. He's not particularly in distress. It seems like a useful conversation and very informative for Ramona and it can just be that, it doesn't have to be anything with ramifications outside this room that his compulsions would care about. 

He does have an answer to that question, though. "If Bastran tried to order that, I am not sure exactly what would go wrong," because he's not trying to think about it very hard, this is so hypothetical, not at all something his compulsions should care about, "but I am certain it would fail and he would end up deposed as Emperor and probably dead. It might be possible to dismantle the entire system, in theory, with about a decade's worth of planning and figuring out how to bring the right people on board - it would have to be hundreds of them - and then make the transition without destabilizing everything. I think the Empire would probably still collapse afterward, there is a reason why it ended up this way, and I think an Empire without compulsions would be less predictable and therefore more threatening to our gods."

Another slight shrug. "I am not particularly inclined to put the next decade of my life toward changing the entire system."  

"The gods really do work pretty cleverly to undermine the Empire. I had a hard time understanding what they meant by that until I saw it happen."

"Can you say more, Caris? I can't even guess what you mean."

" - so, the gods see the world through prophecy - through precognition. They can see all possible futures, and steer for the ones that they like. And that means you can't just make plans that work unless you get absurdly unlucky, you have to make plans where you like all of the range of possible futures, or where the gods disprefer the same ones as you."

That is still fairly abstract, Altarrin thinks, and might not be very helpful to Ramona for guessing what specific sort of thing Caris means. 

"The assassination attempt against me came up earlier," he says, in a normal tone of voice. (His compulsions have no objection at all to talking about ways the Velgarth gods are very difficult to work around.) "What may not have been clear is that - this is not a case where a specific person or group of people wanted me dead, and planned accordingly. That would probably have failed, I am difficult to kill." 

It's actually a pretty complicated sequence of events; he spends fifteen seconds just thinking through what order to tell it in. 

"The broad strokes are that I had gone to investigate a suspicious string of bizarre sabotage incidents at the spellsilver mine we had recently opened in a northern province - Caris needs spellsilver for making magic items, so it was quite high stakes to me. I went north in person to investigate; I suspected that worshippers of Vkandis, one of the gods who has a country nearby, were involved. I had the mine workers evacuate and stay in their quarters, detained several of them for questioning, and went down into the mine to look at the scene myself. ...It turned out that my temporary replacement clerk happened to be more corrupt than my usual staff, and accepted a bribe from a Healer on-site to smuggle one of the detained workers out, who happened to be her brother. To create a diversion and let him get away cleanly, she somehow convinced the second detained worker to kill the third for extra blood-power, and go down into the mine to Final Strike - a type of suicide attack mages can perform to create a large explosion. I am not sure they even intended to kill me. It should not ordinarily have even injured me badly, just created a significant distraction and occupied us until her brother was out of range. What actually happened is that there was, coincidentally, also a pocket of bad air undetectable to mage-sight, so I was moderately impaired, and separately there was a pocket of highly flammable gas, which led to a far larger explosion than they could possibly have anticipated. I still made it out, but it was more of a close call than it had any right to be, and that was not planned by any of the individuals involved." 

"So you had plans -- to set up spellsilver mining. And the saboteurs had plans... to stop you. And their plans should not have been good enough, because you're so hard to kill, but their plans nearly worked anyway, because the gods were nudging things in that direction. Did I understand you correctly?"

"I have no reason to think the saboteurs were aiming to kill me. To damage the Empire, sure, but it was not predictable from their point of view that I would come in person at all. They may not even have known who I am, the province in question is very remote from the capital. And the the actual attack on me was barely even related to the earlier sabotage." 

"Oh, so it wasn't even the gods putting their fingers on the scale to favor the saboteurs' plans over yours. This was an entirely different outcome, that apparently only the gods wanted? Is that closer?"

"That was my interpretation, yes." 

"Gosh, I can't decide if I should be asking you a whole bunch more about the gods now, but I'm afraid of getting too far afield. I should probably be focusing on things that the four of us have any hope of shifting anytime in the next few hours, days, or weeks."

"Unless... do I need to understand the gods before I can make a plan for how this therapy works? Like, if the gods don't want you to resolve your issues with each other, does that mean we need a clever ten-year plan to do it?"

This was absolutely not covered in the class about treatment planning in graduate school.

"Should be fine, they have few avenues to intervene here because this is an uninhabited area. In the long run we might want to switch to a location on your planet but Bastran'd have to trust me more."

Nod. "I think the gods may have tried something like that with Caris and Bastran, arranging for Bastran to learn certain information in the right - or wrong, from our perspective - order, such that he assumed Caris was untrustworthy. But that plan did not actually work, and it would be much harder to nudge from our current position." 

"Okay, I just can't resist, even though it probably doesn't matter to the therapy... why are the gods against you? I'm not even sure which 'you' I'm talking about. All three of you?"

"I assume They are against me in particular because I was involved in the Cataclysm - I find it hard to blame Them - and then kept popping up again, which must have been alarming. But - more generally, my understanding is that They see the world through Foresight, prophecy, and find anything unpredictable alarming because it makes it difficult to see and plan. Advancing technology is unpredictable, and They seem consistently against that, except in the Empire which is predictable anyway because everyone is mind-controlled. ...Caris, I think They find alarming because he is from another world with magic that does not exist in Velgarth, and is inherently very noisy. Bastran, I am not sure They actually object to. His reign as Emperor has not been unduly unlucky so far." 

"I could probably have stayed out of trouble with the gods if I went back to being very small and unambitious and uninteresting but then I'd die when I got old, so."

"All right. I'm going to let this god stuff go for now, and come back for it if I need to. Just one more question that I can think of while Bastran is still out of the room."

"Can you give me a complete list of all of the compulsions on each one of you? Or is that hard to do for some reason?"

Ramona is actually kind of thrilled to be able to ask this question. Normally people don't know what they're not letting themselves consider. Of course, these clients might have the usual kind of lack-of-introspection psychological problems too, but it's sort of refreshing to work with artificial psychological obstacles that are, presumably, fairly clean around the edges and articulable.

"I have a long list blocking me from conquering the Empire or magically manipulating Bastran or the people who work for him but none affecting my motivations or thought processes. - I argued for this. I really didn't expect Bastran to listen but he did."

Altarrin's current compulsions, in order, are:

- To obey direct Imperial orders from a lawful superior. Bastran counts. Rather few others in the Empire would. This one is inactive and has no effect on his thinking or motivation unless he's in fact receiving an Imperial order. 

- Not to alter his compulsions, request their alteration, or make indirect plans to have them altered. 

- To serve the Empire. 

- To serve the Emperor. 

- A list of (non-motivation-affecting) specific blocks against sabotage, theft of Imperial resources, plotting to assassinate fellow officers, etc etc etc. 

Bastran only has a single compulsion, "to serve the Empire." It's somewhat differently set up than Altarrin's corresponding compulsion, but he's not sure he can describe the difference in a way that would be meaningful to Ramona, and in any case the precise effects on, and how they differ for Altarrin, are going to depend more on how Bastran conceptualizes it and relates to it differently than on the actual magical differences. 

"So I find I'm still confused, because none of those seem to be about what Altarrin or Bastran are allowed to think. Can you help me understand that part?"

"The compulsion to serve the Empire is motivation-affecting. I can - mostly step around this - but I think for Bastran, it makes it very difficult to consider whether the Empire is...not worth serving."

And the compulsion not to plan even indirectly to modify his other compulsions is very motivation and thought-affecting, and is the main thing making this conversation difficult. Altarrin isn't going to bring that up explicitly; he might be able to wrangle it, but it would hurt. 

"I'm going to trace back how we got here."

"1. Caris said, among the concerns he believes others have about him, that he thinks Bastran doesn't want Caris to take Altarrin away."

"2. When I checked with Bastran, he said that wasn't quite it, but that he thinks Altarrin hates the Empire now, and that Caris had something to do with that. And that Altarrin wouldn't want to leave the capital if it weren't for that change of heart."

"3. Altarrin clarified that Caris cast a Wisdom-enhancing spell on him, and so enhanced, he noticed that the Empire was stuck, and that he hadn't been able to think clearly about it because of his compulsions. I'll note here that I'm not actually sure which compulsion of Altarrin's got in the way here, but something did."

"4. Bastran couldn't actually process what Altarrin said, because of his compulsion to serve the Empire. To notice that there is anything seriously wrong with the Empire might generate a thought that the Empire is not worth serving, and that would be in conflict with 'serve the Empire.'"

"Then I started poking into whether it might make sense to remove these compulsions. We quickly established that we can't remove them permanently, because that would likely result in Bastran being deposed as Emperor and probably killed. We could potentially remove them temporarily, just while we're in this tower. One downside to that is that evidently it was 'bad' for Altarrin when he had to get his compulsions put back on again. I haven't heard much yet about that badness, and I'll need to if we're seriously considering doing the same to Bastran."

"I also need to consider questions of whether I need Bastran's consent... or meta-consent... or something. Or if I can just decide to do it for 'his own good.' I would need to be very very sure it was actually for his benefit."

"But even ahead of all that I have to ask..."

"To what end? What could we even hope to accomplish?"

"Let's say we took off Bastran's compulsions so everyone here could think clearly and hear each other and communicate."

"Let's say that worked, and now Bastran understood what Altarrin was saying."

"What then? Would that actually get us anywhere? And would we have any gains we'd get to keep when the compulsions were back on?"

"What do you two think?"

If, in fact, Altarrin can think about this at all. Which Ramona is not entirely sure he can, what with it being a proposal about altering compulsions. She is keeping open the possibility that Altarrin's compulsions should also be removed but she knows he can't think about that, so.

"- if he was - on our side but under constraints - that seems different from him just not caring about anything that actually matters to us even when he's not forced to?"

This is a moderately difficult conversation to have. Altarrin is going to pretend they're talking about the antimagic field plan, where it's not like the compulsion are even off, just temporarily suppressed. 

"I think there are gains we would keep even if Bastran needed to return to the Empire with the compulsion in place." 

Pause. 

"...The compulsion Bastran is under is - one that lands differently depending on how he relates to it. I think he could - substantially change how he relates to it, in a session of talking about it. The compulsion to serve the Empire is...not the one I found particularly difficult to have back in place. Since there are many ways of serving the Empire. In a sense, directly fighting the gods on the Empire's behalf would be very patriotic." 

"Please tell me everything you can think of that could go wrong with a temporary removal of Bastran's compulsions. And I mean everything. No matter how unlikely. I'll think about it too."

"He's mad and decides to try to kill us. - he can't, in an antimagic field. The antimagic field triggers some other precaution his security persuaded him to place against me since it's an obvious thing I'd try if I were trying to kill him. He gets really mad and orders us executed. Antimagic fields are actually one of those spells that fail one time in a hundred in a spectacular way and I just never heard about it because at home there was no one pushing for hostile coincidence. He has an emotional breakdown. There's some way that suppressing his spells looks to his security like him being murdered and they come in to kill us. Some of us are mistaken about which compulsions we're under."

Altarrin also considers this for a suitably long interval. 

"I am not particularly worried about security precautions, I think? We could probably risk asking him if he set up anything with his security team, but I doubt it. The shielding on the tower itself already makes it more or less impossible for magical signals to get through, and I would notice if he were wearing an item designed to trigger an alarm in response to antimagic fields."

Pause. "I am definitely worried it might cause various kinds of emotional distress. It would be risky to warn him first, and if we do not warn him, he might find that upsetting? It - might make it hard for him to model his future feelings on something once the compulsion is affecting him again. It might make him - less motivated to solve problems in general, since I suspect he has a lot of his motivation in general built on it?" He shakes his head slightly. "I think it is not very likely he would have an emotional breakdown that we cannot figure out how to handle, or that would persist after he leaves the antimagic field." 

"Here's what I came up with. Mine are less informed by reality than yours."

"1. It's painful to go back under compulsions.
2. The compulsions won't go back on, somehow.
3. Bastran doesn't want the compulsions back on, and we end up having to do that against his will.
4. Bastran refuses to continue to serve as Emperor. (I have no idea what the sequelae to that would be!)
5. Bastran loses his mind because it's been so shaped around the compulsions that he's completely lost without them.
6. The gods don't like us doing such a high-variance thing and find a way to intervene, later if not while we're right in the middle of what we're doing."

"There is a lot of overlap in our lists, and some of mine might not even make any sense."

"The potential upside, as I currently understand it, is not so much that Bastran learns something, but that you two do."

"Caris, would you feel more at peace if you knew that Bastran actually cared about you and your goals, and that he only opposes you because of this compulsion that is external to himself?"

" - yeah. I'd want to save him. Instead of feeling - frustrated and like I mostly need to manipulate him so that he doesn't kill everyone by inaction."

"Have you ever thought about removing his compulsions before? And if so, what stopped you?"

" - that his security might have a way to notice and kill me? That he might be angry and put me back under the usual restrictive compulsions? That local mages spellcast faster than me and he could stop me if he realized?"

"It sounds like this is not at all a clear-cut decision, for any of us."

"I propose that we bring Bastran back in and do the final third of this question - see what Altarrin believes Caris and Bastran's complaints about him are. I have learned the hard way over time that it is a mistake to cut the intake questions short and start trying to change the system before I've seen all of it."

"Meanwhile, I'd ask you both to think more on the question of anti-magic fields and the tradeoffs. I'll think more about it too."

"Sound reasonable?"

"Yes." It's safer to do with Altarrin here than any other time or place, probably. And she could do it while Bastran's distracted. She doesn't actually have the spell prepared but she has one better, she has it Contingent (for a Final Strike near her, or her speaking a trigger word).

Altarrin has been trying to gently-without-actually-forcing-it nudge his way through some mental resistance in order to interrupt. 

"I think there is a significant possible upside for Bastran, personally. I think he is - unhappy, and mostly not able to think about that because admitting that he dislikes much of his work would feel too much like disloyalty to the Empire. I...suppose I am not sure it would actually be better afterward, if he needed to go back anyway, but - he could at least consider longer term plans to improve his situation. 

- it seems reasonable to wait and think about it, though." 

Ramona gets up, opens the door, beckons Bastran back into the room, and stretches.

"Welcome back, Bastran!"

Bastran nods to her, slightly stiffly, and retakes his seat. 

(He's a lot calmer than he was when he left. His feelings are IN THE BOX and he thinks he can manage to take them out one at a time if Ramona specifically wants to hear about them. He's managed to convince himself not to think much about whatever conversation they've been having in here, because it was private and Ramona will definitely tell him if anything pertains to him.) 

Altarrin is also calm and focused, and leaving it to Caris and Ramona to keep track of the conversation they just had, which he was only half present for anyway. He doesn't quite smile reassuringly at Bastran, it wouldn't actually help, but he nods to him. 

Caris is calm because feelings are not a threat to him. He is too Chelish for that. He will just judge everyone who is having them and not himself have them and thereby be safe. 

"All right, let's finish up this monster question. You all know the routine by now."

"Altarrin, if I were to ask Bastran and Caris for their top three or four concerns or complaints about you, what do you think they would say?"

Altarrin deliberately tried not to spend much of the previous conversation distracted by thinking about what to say on his turn. He takes thirty seconds to think about it now. 

"...I think Caris would probably complain that I spent much of the time we were working together, before the difficulties with the Office of Inquiry, being pointlessly sad? Which is not wrong, even if it was a grief I endorsed feeling. It probably was impairing me to some extent - I was definitely acting unstrategically in some ways, though mostly in failing to communicate more of what I was thinking through or working on to Caris - and it would be understandable if being sad made me unpleasant company. I am also fairly sure Caris was upset at the time that I was not actually romantically interested, but I am not sure if he would still hold that as a grievance." 

Answering the question for Bastran is...harder, for some reason. 

He sighs. "...There are grievances I feel that Bastran should reasonably have with me, that I somehow doubt are complaints he would actually make? Such as having created the Empire to be the way it is, or having steered him to be Emperor. I...think Bastran probably would complain that my current attitude toward the Empire is confusing and hard to make sense of? And of course I am imposing costs on him by feeling that way. ...Bastran might be upset that I did not tell him the full truth about Carissa at the start. As Emperor, he arguably had a right to know the full details on any intrigue I was engaged in in his palace." 

Ramona sort of expects that Altarrin is right and Bastran is not going to be able to complain that Altarrin created the Empire improperly, but this is a good chance for her to check her predictions about Bastran.

"Bastran? Do you think Altarrin botched it, when he created the Empire this way?"

Somewhat to his own surprise, Bastran mostly can think about it. At least if he's considering the whole question to be one mainly about Altarrin's feelings, and not the material reality of the Empire they've both dedicated their lives to. 

"I think we probably have more or less the same complaints and things we wish were different? I'm - not sure he had many choices, if he wanted there to be an Empire at all and for it to be stable during - periods where he wasn't personally around. But - yes, there are things I'd change in a heartbeat. If I thought they could be changed without - compromises we can't afford." 

"Can you say more about that? I can't tell if it matters to our work here or not but I'm just trying to build a picture in my mind of the world you all live in. What would you change?"

"I don't like ordering executions. - I'm not sure that's a thing about the Eastern Empire, specifically, I think basically all functional governments have to if they want the law to mean anything, I've never heard of a country that didn't execute people for murder or treason. ...I don't like that we have to kill the priests if we want the provinces to be stable. It's - still fewer deaths in the long run than leaving them alone, Altarrin did the math, but it's - not their fault that their gods aren't worth serving." 

Ramona pauses to consider opening up a conversation about capital punishment and whether it's actually a good idea or not and starts to think sad desperate thoughts about the prison industrial complex in her own home culture and decides not to weigh in. Bastran didn't come here for advice on running his country, and Ramona's not sure she's qualified to give it anyway.

"That sounds hard, making deliberate decisions weighing current lives against greater damage done later. I don't envy you that. It also sounds like you don't have a better idea for how the Empire could be, is that right?"

(The Empire actually has the death penalty for fewer crimes than most of its neighbors. It has a lot more options for keeping relatively less dangerous prisoners - especially un-Gifted commoners - alive and harmless under compulsions. Altarrin does not feel like this would be especially useful to bring up.) 

Bastran shakes his head. "I don't. I don't think Altarrin does, either. ...I guess unless you count his plan to go fight the gods. Which probably would help, if it - worked - but I, I just - don't know if I believe it's the sort of thing humans can pull off. Even Altarrin. And it would be such a pointless waste if he went and got himself destroyed in the attempt." 

"So is it true, Bastran? Is Altarrin's attitude toward the Empire difficult to understand? It sounds to me like you pretty much get what he wants to do and why."

Bastran makes a face. "I guess what he wants to do makes sense, if he thinks he could pull it off. I - think the way he feels about the Empire is confusing, but - feelings can be complicated. I guess." 

"And what about Caris? Do you think Altarrin really should have been more honest with you about him?"

"I'm not sure what his reasoning was for not telling me? If it was just - general operational security, reducing the risk of the wrong person finding out - then that's pretty reasonable, I don't expect to know everything Altarrin is up to. If it was because he didn't trust me specifically, then I'm...hurt, I guess? But I assume he would've had a reason." 

Helpless shrug. "It's - a smaller secret than not telling me he was immortal." Which is incredibly unreasonable to have expected, when Altarrin had never told a single living soul until Caris, and yet he's somehow still hurt about it. 

"Altarrin, it sounds like Bastran can't really figure you out some of the time. And because he can't read you, he's not sure where he stands with you. So it's not so much that he second-guesses your decisions, as that he just can't figure them out. At least in the case of Caris's backstory, anyway."

"Does that sound right?"

"...I suppose that makes sense. I had not thought of myself as unusually confusing, but I suppose Caris also found it hard to figure out where he stood with me. - It was not personal distrust of Bastran, my reasoning was general operational security and - to some extent wanting Caris to feel safer, I think? My model at the time was that he would have found it alarming and threatening if the Emperor knew everything." 

It hadn't at all occurred to Bastran that Caris feeling alarmed about the attention of the Emperor might have been a consideration. He nods stiffly. 

"All right, let's turn then to what you said about Caris. You said he might have considered you 'pointlessly sad' for a long time, and you sort of agree with that and think the sadness might have impaired you. What effect did your sadness have on Caris, do you think? How did your sadness get in the way of things Caris wanted?"

Altarrin frowns, thinking. 

"I suspect it made Caris feel less safe, somehow? ...As well as judging me negatively, probably, because in Cheliax I suspect it would be seen as a sign of personal weakness to be visibly grieving about - bad things. I think Caris also assumed this was more a general trait I had than related to anything I learned from him - I am not sure how that fits in here." 

"So it's not so much that you were so busy being sad that you didn't come through for Caris overtly -- you think it was more implicit than that? Caris interpreting your sadness in the context of his own culture and temperament, and being alarmed by what it might mean?"

"I...think that seems mostly right? I was explicitly supporting Caris' work in all the ways I had agreed I would, but I think my support might have felt less secure or more conditional because I was often visibly unhappy in his presence? Also I think it is just emotionally unpleasant being around unhappy people even if it has no strategic ramifications." 

"Caris, is Altarrin right? What was it like for you to be around him when he was sad? Could you tell? How did it affect you?"

"That he was super miserable? Yeah, it'd have been hard to miss. And it was unpleasant, and I guess it made me feel insecure, because - I mean, most of the time, if you make someone miserable, they are going to endeavor to stop being in this situation that makes them miserable, and if that situation is you, and you can't live without them, that's kind of scary, right. I think if I'd been sure he wasn't going to stop protecting me it would've been less bad. 

I do judge people for being sad all the time, I guess. Not for - ever being sad? I've been sad. But - I dunno, if I went around trying to feel sad an amount that was appropriate to how bad the things I've done are, that's just trying to do the purifying flames of Hell thing and it turns out that doesn't - actually work, I don't think."

Okay! Now we're doing therapy! Or at least, Ramona is seeing where the therapy could happen. Caris struggles to tolerate emotions in himself or anybody else, and that's a thing people can learn how to do, if they want to! Also, Caris took Altarrin's grief and made it about himself.

Wait, was the grief about Caris? Ramona realizes she's lost track, or never knew, why Altarrin was so sad in the first place, and has to backtrack to ask.

"Altarrin, I apologize, I've lost track. Did you already tell me why you were so sad at that time?"

"I think partly but maybe not entirely? I had come to the realization - after Caris cast the Wisdom spell and temporarily dispelled my compulsions - that the Empire was not going to improve, so I was - grieving for the project I spent the last seven hundred years on. I had also seen a potential solution, that I - do not really want to talk about right now, I think the specifics are not relevant and it should hopefully be moot anyway, but it was very upsetting and I endorsed recognizing that and having the appropriate feelings." 

Sigh. "I think I would not have tried to be less sad if I had understood how it was affecting Caris at the time, but I would have communicated more and maybe tried harder to hide it around him. Though I was already hiding it as much as I could from everyone else, Bastran did not need to be worried about it, and it - I was concealing it less in Caris' presence because I trusted him, but I think that is not how it came across." 

"Ahhh, yes, that does explain it and fits with other things you told me earlier. Thank you, that helps a lot."

"And Caris, you presumably had some idea why Altarrin was so sad, and you were indeed the person who'd helped him gain that Wisdom, so I can see how you might have blamed yourself for that."

"Though I wonder if it would just have been hard for you to be around a sad person, even leaving aside blaming yourself and fearing Altarrin might want distance from you."

"Probably, yeah. I think it would've been much less scary if he'd been sad because, I don't know, his son had died or something, that makes sense to me and obviously wouldn't be something he was likely to react to by getting rid of me. But it's still - if I were hiring for apprentices, and one was a very visibly sad person, I wouldn't hire that one, even without being scared factoring in at all."

"We have just one more idea to check out. Caris, Altarrin thinks maybe you were disappointed or hurt when it turned out that Altarrin did not have romantic interest in you. Is there anything there to address?"

"I ...don't think so? That was mostly me being pathetic."

Ramona is not sure if it's really been resolved within Caris, or if Caris is just extremely effective at shrugging off apparently unproductive feelings. Or maybe that's actually the same thing if you're Caris.

She decides there's enough obvious work to do here that she doesn't need to coax Caris into feeling bad about Altarrin's indifference.

"All right, I think we've finally come to the end of this marathon question. We've talked through all the things you each thought the other person thought about you."

"I have some great news for you! A lot of the things you thought were problems, were not really problems. When we checked them out with the other person, it turns out those concerns were off base."

"When I sum everything up, here's what I'm left with."

"Caris - the others do seem somewhat adversely affected by the way you were shaped by your upbringing. They wish you could tolerate a wider range of feelings in yourself and others. They wish you wouldn't sort of expect Evil and torture and were a little more amenable to trust and cooperation."

"And then there's the knot of confusing issues that lie mostly between Bastran and Altarrin. These issues are hard to work through, because they're hard to think clearly about, and I don't need to belabor the explanation of why they're hard to think about."

"But because they're hard to think about, we have a bunch of problems that seem pretty intractable:"

"1. Bastran, you are very tortured about how you keep finding yourself in terrible situations with impossible choices and people end up getting hurt. It would be nice to figure out if you are actually doing the best you possibly can, in which case you need to go a little easier on yourself, or if in fact you should be able to find a better way, in which case you should... do that. Do better. And it's hard to have 'the wisdom to know the difference' because of the not being able to think clearly."

"2. You all seem very stuck on this question of whether Bastran should actually let Altarrin leave the capital."

"3. There is a difference of opinion or values or something about whether people truly dying in Velgarth is a problem that should be fixed, and if it should, whether it can be fixed."

There is also item 4 that Ramona doesn't say out loud, which is who knows what other Bastran damage lies beneath the compulsions, too clouded to see from here.

"How was that as a summary? What do you think I missed or got wrong?"

"That all sounds about right to me. I think."

She would probably be more Good if they didn't both make it seem wildly unappealing but she isn't going to say that.

'Tortured' feels like it's putting it a bit strongly, but Bastran also feels like arguing with that characterization is mostly just going to lead to Ramona paying more attention to him, which is the last thing he wants right now. 

And he does want to know if he could be doing better. If there's some obvious alternate route he's missing that would solve some of the impossible-feeling problems without compromising something else he can't afford. It's a topic that hurts to think about, but, well, that doesn't make it less important. Though he would like it if everyone else could agree to be less hung up on Altarrin leaving the Empire that's not fair of him. 

"That - seems like a reasonable summary," he says tightly. Not that it feels like an incredibly useful summary, right now, he has no idea what Ramona thinks she can do about any of it. 

Nod. "I am not sure all of those are relationship difficulties, exactly, or - problems that can be addressed by talking about them here in this room. It seems like a reasonable summary of what we discussed today." 

"All right. I propose that we wrap up this session, and consider our options for how to proceed from here. Altarrin makes a good point that some of these can't necessarily be fixed in this room... at least under our current conditions."

"What I would like to do next is meet with each of you individually. There are a few things I need to check out with each one of you."

Oh no terrible awful that's not fair That makes sense. Bastran nods. 

Bastran is clearly stressed about the prospect, but Ramona has eyes and is presumably just as qualified if not more than Altarrin to notice this  and handle it appropriately. "That makes sense," he says levelly. "Were you thinking to pause for the day at some point and resume at a planned later time?" He doesn't have any pressing commitments, it had seemed like a good idea to block out the entire day, but Bastran might find it easier to know how much more of this he needs to face in one go. 

"I can continue today but don't want to assume you all want to hang around while I talk to each of you individually. I don't need to be back until evening on my world."

"I probably shouldn't plan on being away longer than I have to," Bastran says tightly. Hopefully it doesn't come off sounding like a childish excuse.