"Oh." 

Vanyel is quiet for a while. 

"I don't think I understand the thing you're trying to say, either. But - I think it'd be really important, if you're right. So...maybe we should try to figure it out together. Or something." He shakes his head. "How did Leareth end up - being the sort of person who'd even think of 'making a god' as an answer to his problems? I don't - that's not a normal way for someone to be, right." 

"I don't think so. And it'd be pathetic, in most people. But - maybe when you're thousands of years old it's a reasonable way to think. The first ascended human was thousands and thousands of years old when he decided to become a god. I don't know how he even knew it was possible but - I guess maybe it's what you get to eventually."

"- Does ascending in Golarion also take killing a lot of people." 

"I don't think so. It takes the Starstone and I guess if you had to kill lots of people to make the Starstone in the first place I wouldn't know. It was formed in Earthfall which killed lots of people but I don't have any reason to think that was a necessary ingredient. ...and Irori ascended without the Starstone and I think if he'd killed lots of people I might've heard about it."

"Mmm." Vanyel stares into the distance and fidgets for a while, thinking. "- Um, sorry, this - isn't really related, just...can you actually imagine being married to him? Since - apparently you are, in the other world that Pexa's from...?" His face shifts a little toward a smile. "She's really sweet, by the way." 

"The kid? I don't - really know what to do with kids. Leareth plays with her occasionally when she manages to flag him down in the hallway. 

I can't figure out the marriage thing. Even - even assuming he went and conquered Cheliax, with Aroden, we have nobles, you'd want to marry one of those. In that world I am apparently a servant of Iomedae, the Lawful Good god of the war with Hell, but - but if Asmodeus weren't in charge of Cheliax then probably lots of people'd be Hers -

- he is sometimes almost flirtatious but I think just for fun, it is hard to imagine him wanting something and not doing it for no reason."

"Weird." Vanyel shrugs again. "Honestly, just imagining him kissing anyone is - really really weird. I can't picture it at all."

Carissa pauses, considering it. "I see what you mean. It's the - never reacting or doing anything by accident or indicating strong feelings, it'd go oddly with kissing... 

Calib says everyone says he has absolutely no personal life at all. Though there's a lot of things he doesn't tell people, so." Shrug.

"He seems very secretive." Vanyel takes a deep breath. "...Anyway. What we were talking about before, the - thing Leareth wanted from you. That you're not sure you understand. It... I don't know, it seems related to - why he bothered talking to me. Which I also don't get - I mean, he was scary but - I don't think he was trying to be as convincing as possible? So I don't really get what he wanted." 

"I think he thinks you'd - want to do what he wants to do, if he explained it all, and if you could believe he wasn't lying."

"...Huh. I really don't think I could ever end up wanting to murder people for blood-magic to make a god. I think there are some lines you don't cross." 

"...What?" 

"Sorry, I just, I don't really get Good. I'm working on it."

"- Is Leareth that confused about it too? Does he - not get why he comes across as horrible to us?" 

"I don't think he's confused. It's just, it was illegal to advocate for Good in Cheliax, and it wasn't really explained in school, besides from that you basically can't be trying to do anything important or meaningful. And that Lawful Good in particular is just a million random rules that don't make anything better but that you have to follow all the time or the other Lawful Good people will shun you. You can - kidnap your allies at the Worldwound and plan on turning them into a statue so they don't tell Asmodeus about you, but gods forbid you don't feed them in the meantime - even if the food could instead feed some person you intend to keep alive! You can keep them chained up underground in a windowless room but you have to show up and make conversation every day for fifteen minutes. You can't kill them if they're pregnant, but you also must act very offended if, accordingly, they propose that they fuck you. You can't tell them to convert but you can kill them for not converting. So many rules, and none of them - you can follow them all to a T and the world won't be any better than it started -"

"I don't think that's right–" Vanyel stops. Scowls again, rubs his eyes. "I mean, I don't know anything about the Lawful Good people in Golarion, but - I don't think that's what Heralds are, or what we're doing? I - I think when you have a line you don't cross, it's for a reason, it's - it matters that Heralds don't do bad things..." 

Vanyel seems unsure whether he's managing to explain what he means at all. 

"Heralds - represent your gods, and your gods will punish you if you break their rules. ...that's not what you mean, is it. I ...have a hard time imagining a country where people really believe their government won't do bad things."

"I mean, it's not not that - King Valdemar prayed and got the Companions as a miracle, and they're good, they'd stop us if we tried to do bad things - or repudiate us..." Shiver. "But that's not why. I think in order to be Chosen you - have to want to do the right thing. Just because it's right." 

"Every mage in your country is Chosen."

"...I guess." Vanyel shrugs again. "I - think most people will want to do the right thing, though. If they're strong enough to - help people, to do things that matter - that other people can't do for themselves..." 

For some reason his voice sounds a bit like he's going to cry. 

"I think mostly you can indoctrinate kids any which way you want and 'help people' is a particularly easy sell on people who aren't from Cheliax, probably."

"Mmm. ...But it's not about rules, then, right. 'Helping people' isn't a rule, it's - you'd want someone else to help you if you needed it." 

"The thing Seldasen was interested in - didn't seem like it was about rules. But I'm also - not sure it is opposed to killing people to build gods."

Vanyel smiles, suddenly. His face looks very different when he smiles, somehow younger and older at the same time.

"You've read Seldasen? I...hmm, I'm - trying to decide if I disagree with that. I mean, Seldasen didn't actually try to do anything like that, when he was alive. He just did - normal good things."