"Alfirin, I'm not sure how many of Iomedae's changes happened before you met, or if they happened during the last sixteen years that you've known her. I guess some of them might have happened while you were away. Still, you have some perspective here. What has it been like, observing Iomedae's changes? Has it made her any easier or more difficult to work with or relate to?"

"She was fearless and had powerful cognitive enhancement when I met her. The making decisions like a god - I don't think it made her harder to relate to, except for when I returned to the Crusade when it was a more dramatic change. I think it mostly made it easier to understand and relate to Arazni and the other gods. The other things... aren't really personality-affecting in the same way. I imagine that for some people watching someone like Iomedae gain all the skills and powers that she has would make her seem more - unapproachable or intimidating, but I don't think I am one of those people. And of course I was also becoming much more powerful in this time."

There went Ramona's theory that this relationship went sideways due to uneven increases in cleverness. That's okay -- sometimes you generate fifty bad theories before you find a good one. The key is to let go of them as fast as you generate them.

"Yes, so that leads into my next question. Are you also missing any emotions? What other capabilities do you have as a -- wizard, is that right? -- that might affect how you relate to other people?"

"I do not know myself to be missing any emotions common to humans. I am an enchantment specialist - that's magic that affects or controls other people's thoughts and emotions - so from the perspective of someone without access to my own thoughts I might expect that to cause me to treat people as tools to use to achieve my own ends rather than people with ends of their own. I do not think that has happened but I don't have access to a version of myself with different talents to compare." That is less than perfectly candid, since it seems that it has happened to the other Alfirin over the next eight centuries but that's a different topic and not one that she's ready to discuss.

"I think the biggest way that being a powerful wizard changes how I relate to people is that I only very rarely have substantial interactions with ordinary people."

"I think it's not unusual for powerful people to have fewer substantial interactions with ordinary people." And Ramona is not that worried about it in this context, given that Iomedae is not an ordinary person.

"I would also like to go back to something you said earlier. You said you are 'uncomfortable with divinity.' Can you say more about what that means? Do you get increasingly uncomfortable with Iomedae as she gets closer to divinity?"

Well there's a good question she's never really thought about because how Alfirin feels about her is no longer any of her business.

"I think that the gods typically interact with mortals in ways that are unjust towards those mortals. With a few exceptions, I think they pursue goals that match mortal goals only coincidentally. The ways that gods manage and steer mortals upsets me, and I prefer to limit my interactions with and visibility to gods in order to avoid being so steered... the second of those concerns does not apply to Iomedae, and the others don't apply yet but - I expect that after she ascends I will try to avoid her like the other gods, and there might be intermediate states where I'd be uncomfortable around her for that reason. She's just not there yet."

This is relationship counseling and not philosophy counseling and probably it would run contrary to the spirit of it for Iomedae to give a very lengthy explanation of precisely where she disagrees with Alfirin about what it means to treat people justly so she won't do that. Though she misses when they'd do that even more than she misses the relationship, honestly.

Iomedae's straight back and steady gaze seem a trifle straighter and steelier, perhaps? Iomedae has so much dignity, it's hard to read her, but Ramona has a hunch.

"Something to add, Iomedae?"

"I'm not sure if this is the place for - philosophical disagreements - or if that'll ultimately be a distraction - and I think on the most recent occasions Alfirin and I have spoken of this she - wished we hadn't -"

"That conversation was upsetting in the moment because it touched on upsetting matters but I don't regret having it, exactly."

"Would someone give me just a brief synopsis of what that conversation was about and how it ended, without actually rehashing the conversation itself?"

This is a test! Many couples can't stay at the meta and talk about the conversation without accidentally having the conversation. Can these two do it? Ramona bets they can, but she's been wrong before. Intelligence and competence in leading troops or casting spells does not always translate to competence in conversational navigation.

"In brief, we talked about some of the ways that gods intervene on the material plane, and which, if any of them, are treating mortals justly. I was of the opinion that only a very restricted set of interventions were just; Iomedae was I think undecided. I presume she is planning to figure it out later. One case we were talking about was manipulations done without a mortal's knowledge or permission, but toward that mortal's eventual benefit, and it came up that that had happened to me and that I would rather it had not... I got upset, we ended the conversation there. Followed up later on whether or not it was Aroden that did it." Alfirin's face is carefully blank, or, rather, not carefully not-blank like she's been trying to keep it so far for 'relationship counseling'.

"This was about four years ago, shortly before Arazni died," says Iomedae, that being the only important detail that she can think of that wasn't present in Alfirin's summary.

Well, they certainly pass that test. They're good at staying on the surface when that's what they mean to do. Ramona thinks they used to know how to dive deep, too, but have lost the knack. Why? What are they afraid of?

(Except of course, Iomedae supposedly doesn't feel fear. Then what is her avoidance made of? Does she tell herself it's made of wisdom? Is there any way that's true?)

"So in that particular conversation, Alfirin got upset and you stopped talking, and then you came back to some part of it later, though it sounds like maybe the main issue was never resolved."

"What does it look like when Alfirin gets upset? What would an observer actually see and hear?"

On Earth, Ramona would ask what would show on a video camera, but she doesn't know the name of the corresponding magic spell that would evoke the same idea. She's supporting her clients in separating observation from inference. Again, she mostly expects that these particular clients don't need the help, but she doesn't like to assume.

"I think I may have made some angry gestures, or facial expressions, and spoken more sharply and less carefully than I usually do... Technically most observers would only notice the gestures, if they happened, the conversation was telepathic. Iomedae would know better, she was closer to being an observer."

"I mostly notice that Alfirin is upset when she speaks more quickly or more carelessly or when she - leaves me guessing a lot more of what she wants. Sometimes I can read her face but I try not to do that if I don't think she wants me to, and most people cannot."

Possibly it's just this setting being one where she's quicker to notice fondness for Iomedae, but that's actually really sweet.

That all sounds about right, actually! Ramona wasn't sure what she would learn about upset Alfirin -- you never know about wizards. But if upset Alfirin mostly talks quickly and gets a subtle look of annoyance on her face that only Iomedae can see -- well, that's a pretty reasonable way to be upset.

These two do not have any glaringly obvious, easy-to-fix relationship flaws so far.

Ramona is going to have to ask them again for some help figuring out some kind of objective for therapy.

"Thank you for putting up with all of my nosy questions so far! As you talk, I am beginning to form a very low-fidelity picture of each of you and your world, but it's a good start."

"I admit I am still a little bit confused about what we should be trying to work on or accomplish! And I know when I asked you at the beginning, you didn't know either. So let me try another angle on it. It's okay if this one doesn't work either."

"Shelyn sent you here. Could you tell me more about her, and can you take your best guess about what kind of outcome would satisfy her?"

"Shelyn is the goddess of love. Not specifically romantic love, also the love of friends or family. I ...assume she thinks that we have some things to talk about about how we relate to each other. I'm frustrated by that because - it is not as if we have decided not to discuss that out of any confusion, as far as I know. I think we have accurate information and have decided on this strategy for working together because it will win us the war, which matters a great deal to us. And Alfirin will leave after the war, apparently, and she is entitled to do that, and I would consider it inappropriate, to try to strategize to make her stay if she doesn't want to.

If I assume that Shelyn understands all of that - and gods do not always understand mortals that well, but I would not really expect a Good god to make a demand this specific without a fairly detailed understanding of what we care about - then I would assume that one of us is substantively mistaken about something we would want to know. Related to our relationship."

"That makes sense! Often I find myself explaining to people that many conflicts are optional, and that you can consciously decide whether to talk about the tough stuff or not, depending on what sorts of outcomes you are trying to steer towards! It sounds like you already know that and are doing that."

"Let's go with that idea for a moment, that Shelyn believes that one of you has made a mistake, and there's something important to discover by talking more."

"How could we go about discovering what that is, while minimizing the damage from talking about other things?"

Ramona has ideas already, but she habitually leaves the brainstorming and problem-solving to her clients as much as possible. She wants to see what they come up with, and what they don't come up with. Some ideas may seem 'invisible' to them for some cultural or psychological reason.

"If I assume that the relationship counselor is an important element, conceivably we could each produce a private-for-you account of the situation as we understand it, and then you could alert us to discrepancies that seem to reflect different factual understandings of the situation?"

"That could definitely work and I'm up for trying it if it's the best option! But I'd like to take a minute to run through other ideas that don't necessarily run through me. It's possible that my entire job is just to get you two talking at all. Anything else come to mind? If not, I can offer some ideas for you to shoot down."