"My own - feeling about Shelyn - is that paying us to go talk to another human is Shelyn endeavoring to trade with us as transparently as possible and should be encouraged, but I do not really expect Alfirin to feel that way."

"I am not, per se, opposed to relatively transparent trades with gods, but I do rather strongly prefer that - the things in my life which are most important to me are not put there by divine meddling... to the extent that that's possible."

"The things in my life which were most important to me were definitely put there by divine meddling. But I - understand that you are unlike me - and unlike most people - in - how much you care about that, and maybe in how much it harms you -"

"Yes." It feels like there should be more to say but she's not sure there actually is, or what it might be.

Iomedae cannot think of a response to that situation which would not be - aimed at getting Alfirin to be willing to play along, and she doesn't want to do that, if it's not what Alfirin wants. She waits for Ramona to ask another question.

"So we continue to have an open question about Alfirin's tolerance for Shelyn's involvement in this situation. That's fine. We don't need to solve that immediately."

Ramona takes a deep breath and turns to Iomedae.

"There's something else I'm wondering about, and if I'm the only one who's concerned, we don't need to spend a long time on it."

"But," and here Ramona pauses to gather her courage, because this is a pretty confrontational question. "Iomedae. If you get close to Alfirin again, how will you make it okay with yourself that she has apparently murdered and will likely murder again?"

Because that would not be okay with Ramona! But it's not about what would be okay with Ramona.

Still, she doesn't want to let these clients walk out of here... phase out of here? ... without discussing the most obvious future pain points.

"One of the things I miss the most about - the way things were before we attempted, and failed at, a relationship - is that we used to talk about - ethics. What questions have only individual answers and what have universal ones, what things one can be wrong about, what harms we do ourselves, how we decide which of the things we do are who we are. It would make me very happy to have a relationship with Alfirin where I could ask her a lot of questions about why she did what she did instead of something better, and whether she really wants to live in a world where no one stops people like her from doing the things that she has done, and whether she can make it right. I don't really know how those conversations would go. We don't - have them."

"That is also something that I miss. I can't really say how those conversations would go if we started having them again. It seems like - a lot has changed."

"Yes. I - obviously I would forgive you in an instant for anything that you actually regretted -"

Does she regret it? She... wouldn't do it again, but that seems to at least in part be because if there was a need or opportunity to do it again that means her immortality and baby god are much less robust than she expected them to be, and it's not worth it for something fragile like that... Would she do it today, if she hadn't done it before? Maybe, if there weren't better options - and it would be easier to find better options now, she's an archmage - Would she do it now, if she hadn't done it before and were still seventh circle? Probably. She wishes she'd had a better way that didn't involve any murders but that's not really the same thing as regretting the murders, if she'd do them again in a sufficiently similar situation.

...does she, in fact, even want forgiveness? Not...exactly. Not from Iomedae. Forgiveness from Iomedae for something Iomedae had no involvement with or even knowledge of until this point seems like an empty meaningless thing. So...

"I understand. In the case where I regret it, you are not one of the people whose forgiveness I am seeking."

"So one of the things you would very much like, Iomedae, is if you two could start talking about ethics again. You would like to really understand how Alfirin is put together, how she thinks about these things, even though you're not entirely sure how that would go."

"That's good for Alfirin to know, and think about, and decide whether she wants that too!"

"But I was actually asking something a little bit different. Suppose Alfirin's reasoning and values are just... different from yours. Even when you understand exactly what she did and why, you might find that you disagree with it and think she shouldn't have done it. If that's the case, will you be able to tolerate that kind of difference?"

Ramona knows some Earth couples who have broken up because one is a vegan and the other eats meat; the values clash was just too much, and the vegan couldn't respect the meat eater. It seems even harder for Iomedae to respect a murderer?

"I have never been under the impression that Alfirin cared about exactly the same things as I do, and I don't need her to. I - do care about whether - I said earlier that I think Alfirin is willing to behave as someone she would be unwilling to live under, that she is not even trying to behave with power in such a way as to create a world in which people like her would thrive. That does bother me, and I hope that I am mistaken in that, and insofar as that's true I doubt that what Alfirin is doing is wholly - coherent? I think Alfirin is probably making some mistakes, and it would matter to me in how I feel about her whether I'm right that she is making some mistakes and if instead I'm making some mistakes what exactly the mistakes are that I'm making. Which is not to say that error explains most of the differences between us. 

Ultimately the thing I care about the most, though, is that when we needed to fight Hell itself Alfirin was there, and when we needed to fight Tar-Baphon Alfirin was there."

"So it sounds like you can tolerate it, because she shows up when it really matters, and you do not expect others to share your values."

"However, you said it would matter to you if her actions are incoherent, and you'd like to know which of you is confused about that. What happens if she is, in fact, incoherent and making mistakes? What implications does that have for the two of you being close?"

"If she is making mistakes then we are on the same side in trying to figure out what the strongest version of her is. If she is not making any mistakes and the strongest version of her is - not just someone different from most people who needs different things from the world, but someone who couldn't even be happy in Elysium because she doesn't herself grant people the things she needs from other people - then I think I would still love her but I would admire her less, and I would not feel unconflicted about making her stronger and more capable."

"I see. It would limit your intimacy and make you step down the level of mutual support that's available."

"How will you figure it out? Do you need to figure it out? It seems to me that there's a risk of granting too much latitude."

Iomedae looks at Alfirin, because it seems like the answer to that mostly depends on whether Alfirin even wants to talk about it.

"I believe I am likely making mistakes and -" She pauses, for a brief time.

"...And I have complicated feelings about using this time to identify and correct them but ultimately endorse doing so if it's - topical."

"Well, it sounded like Iomedae wants to know more about how you make these decisions, which part you stand by, which parts you wish you could do differently, what you're flagging as potential mistakes, and how she can help you do better in the future. And none of that is mandatory to share -- but my understanding is that if you do not share, she will have to assume the worst, and that puts a cap on your intimacy."

"It also sounds like she's solid enough in her own principles at this point that she doesn't have to shut you out completely, even if she does assume the worst... I think? But whatever you are able to share about your mistakes increases the possibility that you two can be close."

"If that is what you want."

"So yes, in short, I think it's topical." 

"Okay.

I think this conversation is likely to involve a lot of discussion of my future self from the other timeline, and - I suppose also my own mistakes that I've already made but she has - more of them and ones easier for me to identify as such - 

- and I find myself quite - nervous - about that." She looks to Iomedae. "Does it - work normally - here?"

Iomedae closes her eyes and extends her aura of courage. It is the thing paladins are most known for, because it turns out that in battle - and maybe also in romance - very little matters more than being unafraid.