"You call that taking it well!?"

Jenwy is thinking that things in Ev could use more chaos, if "chaos" is translating better than "demon."  But maybe the magical world they're from (did she hear the name?) is different.

"And why are you proudly proclaiming yourselves Evil?  Without even trying to pretend it's Good?"

"She has a point.  I would've thought everyone agreed that Evil is... well, bad.  Or does Pharasma give the word some other sort of meaning?"

As he's speaking, he swishes the wine around a bit in the glass.  Then he sniffs it, and takes a small swallow.

He smiles brightly. "Yes. Most people would run away or attack us. As for your thoughts, 'chaos' represents refusing to be bound by others, whether in terms of law, precedent, or tradition, free will, and preferring options that leave other paths open. That's a very very simplified view of it – I'm not a cleric.

Well, that's because there's no point in hiding it. We're strong enough to show up to Detect Evil and Detect Chaos: there are spells you can use to detect others' alignments, although only if they're strong enough. And besides, we don't consider being Evil to be bad, otherwise, we wouldn't be Evil. Well, bad for others, I guess. Not for us. I'm not sure if Pharasma's definition is different from yours. Evil actions are things like abortion, killing others – though it depends on who you kill, stealing – although that is Chaotic too, raping, things like that. Basically, not treating others as moral patients.

Admittedly, we use Rings of Mind Shielding to protect us from alignment detection spells, but only when we travel to cities to go shopping. There's no reason to hide here, though, and you can be sure that no harm will come to you, because Bar will kick us out if we try anything like that. We've been talking to it for a while before you came in."

Then, to Areli, "Do you like the wine?"

"And you're fine with being bad for others and doing all those things to them!?  That's worse than any of the tyrants - they at least thought they were doing the right thing!"

She's thinking that, so far, Pharasma's categorizing evil quite correctly.  What she's doing about it is another question.

(She tries to squelch her remembering how she recently helped try to overthrow one of those tyrants who thought they were doing the right thing but was actually trying to micromanage everyone in a religious failed-utopia.  At least she escaped from the failed attempt.)

"It tastes... cleaner and richer than the wine from home I tried that once.  But it's still... dryer than juice or soda, I guess I'd call it?"

He takes another sip, but then sets the glass back down.  "I guess it's easier to see how someone likes wine with this than with the varieties from Ev.  Especially if you don't mind getting drunk - does Pharasma count that as Chaotic?"

"No, see, that's worse, because they're not honest. You know where you stand with us, and we will make it clear if we want something. It's very difficult to negotiate with someone who thinks they have your interests at heart, but actually don't. I refrain from acting on behalf of others for this reason." He looks displeased.

"Religious failed-utopia. Sounds like Cheliax. Although it wasn't meant to be a utopia, hah. It's Lawful Evil, ruled by a Lawful Evil god, Asmodeus. We were born there and raised Lawful Evil, but then left after serving our term of military service. More precisely, Conrad finished his and left, and I tagged along. I was also in the military, but I wasn't bound by contract."

To Areli: "Mmhmm. It has that astringent feeling. If your world doesn't have many people who drink wine, then there probably aren't enough customers for there to be great winemakers. Although that presents a chicken-and-egg problem, since not having great wine will make people not want to buy it. How tragic.

No, Pharasma is Neutral. True Neutral."

Jenwy is looking (and feeling) displeased too, but she reluctantly nods back at Conrad.  "Yeah, it's really hard to get those utopian tyrants to work with you on anything.  If you're honest...  But I've heard that lying is Evil?  And it feels Chaotic too... so why're you not lying about things?"

She adds:  "What was it like being in Cheliax actually ruled by a god?  And how easy was it to get out?"

Areli nods.  "Some of Ev's utopian attempts will let anyone out if you want to get out.  Others won't because they don't want you to leave and do things they call Evil.  And then there're a lot all along the spectrum...  Most of them will still let us History-Monks in and out, because we've taken oaths to record things correctly and as completely as practicable.  I haven't made use of that yet - I'm just a Lector - but I'm hoping to.

"And yes, chicken and egg.  A problem, if you know you like good wine.  The worse problem is that I hear plants change over generations, so even if someone wanted to look up the old descriptions of good winemaking and redo it all on his own as a Project... he couldn't.

"Say, Bar, I'm guessing that if I wanted to bring home some wine grape cuttings, you wouldn't let me?"

"Lying is complicated. It's most likely but not always Chaotic, and tends toward but is not necessarily Evil. Pharasma also takes into account your intentions and philosophies. Of the nine alignments, Lawful Good is the least likely to lie. Chaotic Evil often lies, but it's compatible with being honest. Like us." He smiles slightly.

"Chaotic Good will lie if they feel that it's in the best interests of others, and Lawful Evil will lie unless they've specifically contracted to be truthful. We're not lying about things because there's no reason to. Telling you the truth won't hurt us – you cannot directly harm us, not just because few things can harm us meaningfully, but because Bar will eject you if you try – and neither can you go to our world through our door. Chaotic Evil is often stereotypically portrayed as being stupid which is...okay, I see why people might see that – Chaotic Evil people often are stupid – but that's not necessarily true. Also...being Evil doesn't mean you have to do Evil all the time, just that, on the balance, you are significantly more Evil than you are Good. It's different with Law and Chaos – that's more complicated and has to do with how promises and oaths work. You can balance Evil by doing Good, and vice versa. To an extent.

Asmodeus is the god of tyranny, slavery, compacts, and pride. The both of us were wizard students, and wizard students usually live sheltered lives learning only magic day in and day out. I haven't visited Cheliax since I left, so I'm not sure how a commoner would live. With regard to wizard students specifically, I can tell you about life in Ostenso Wizarding Academy, I suppose. We went there for six years: from twelve through eighteen. There were lots of whippings if you didn't do well. I whipped lots of people – the top student gets the privilege. At the time I was there, I thought that was normal – it's only after I left that I figured out that most schools don't do that. It's been a long time since I reminisced about that, and I don't usually talk about that to others, so I'm not sure what sort of things you would want to hear about.

It was more difficult and more easy than you imagine. It's technically legal to enter and leave Cheliax if you're a free citizen, but in practice, it's impossible. Inquisitors have the legal power to detain anyone indefinitely for questioning, which means that trying to cross the border will usually lead you into a dungeon. At the time, the both of us were fourth-circle wizards, so we were able to cross the border through creative use of magic."

:Sadly not. You also cannot bring items bought from me to your home world.:

"A more fun question that considering Asmodeus: what sort of fiction exists in your world concerning magic? Since your world doesn't have any. Perhaps we can try replicating that magic with ours. Bar has told us that it's permitted to cast direct-effect magic so long as the target has informed consent, and all effects are dispelled, dismissed, or otherwise deactivated before they leave. Bar, do you have a wide open space that we could use?"

:Yes. That way: an arrow is on the napkin pointing to a door :leads to the courtyard. Feel free to go there if you want to have an outdoor ambiance. There is another counter there that is an extension of me, and I can freely move your drinks and other items on this counter to that one if you want to move.

Oh, and another fun thing is that I'm Lawful Neutral too, apparently. I don't usually interject in conversations, but Damian cast alignment detection spells on me and figured that out. Not that it matters for me, but that's rather interesting to know.:

Both Areli and Jenwy are looking horrified at the description of the whippings.  Jenwy is also upset at the Inquisitors, but Areli is more sad than upset there.

"Ah, so it isn't that you actually value being Evil; it's that you're just willing to be Evil if it makes sense for you.  I've read books from some people who were like that - usually they had unusual religious beliefs, but I suppose actually having multiple gods who do miracles all the time must make things really different there.  Are you happy about the afterlife you're expecting?"

Jenwy is happy to move on to more magic!

"We've got books about all sorts of magic!  There's one genre that has more small-scale magic, mostly moving small objects and illusions and lie-detection and sometimes telepathy.  And then there's another genre that has worldgates and space-folding and person-animals and usually they've got bigger things like creating objects too.  And there's another genre where - oh, but there're all sorts of aesthetics that matter, especially if you're trying to duplicate the magic, and they vary a whole lot from author to author, but you might need to be wearing certain clothes or dancing your fingers or brading your hair in some certain ways - or just dancing, or of course singing...

"Oh, how about the oath magic from the Riverwild series?  You join hands in a circle and sing the oath you're making, and rainbow cords rise into the air and tie themselves together around all of you, and a real gem forms in the middle of your circle.  The cords vanish when the song ends, but the gem stays, and the oath magically binds you until the gem is smashed."

"Well...I suppose I value being Evil in the sense that I'm – I'm very hedonistic, and there are particular pleasures which are impossible to obtain without harming someone. Usually because it is in the harming that the pleasure is derived. Conrad," he looks at him, "used to be more hotheaded and vindictive with his use of his power. He mentions whipping fellow students matter-of-factly, but you should have seen the delight on his face when he did it." He laughs for a little bit. Conrad makes an exasperated face and rolls his eyes, looking away.

"Wizards are usually weak, but Conrad was very strong for a wizard – he was basically the only one who exercised, hah. Suffice it to say that his strikes were particularly forceful. The usual punishments for wizard students is whipping followed by flushing with brine, but senior students could cast spells, so we would use Acid Splash, or, if you wanted to be 'gentle'," he mimes quote marks in the air, "Mage Hand. During our military service, Touch of Combustion was very popular – every Security wizard had it in their spellbook.

Sadly, he's become more calm and pragmatic in his old age. Absolutely disappointing." His face suddenly stiffens like that of a disapproving father, before it reverts back to his usual, perpetually amused expression.

"The afterlife situation is a little problematic. The Chaotic Evil afterlife is the Abyss, which is generally awful, but we're not sure what will happen to us. We're demons now, and demons are immortal. Not immune to dying, mind you, but that we simply do not age and hence die of old age. The thing is, demons are considered 'outsiders' – denizens of the Outer Planes – and outsiders have their souls fused with their bodies. When outsiders die, their soul doesn't go anywhere. They can't be raised by the usual revivification spells, but rather, can only be raised using Wish. However, that's the state for regular outsiders who were once mortals who died, got judged and assigned an afterlife, and then became outsiders over the course of many years by absorbing the planar energies. We didn't go through that – we became demons by means of ritual magic. Who knows.

Our current plan is to see whether we can become gods ourselves. Initially, our goal was simply to become demons so as to become immortal – becoming a lich is so passé – but in our research, we found out about a Tian Xia god who was initially a rat, who ascended by eating a god's corpse. Currently, there's a group of adventurers which are fighting Deskari, a demon lord, and we're...sort of helping them. We're seeing whether we might be able to ascend by killing him – which is the goal of the adventurers – and then eating him. We'll see if it works. Hopefully yes." He holds out both his hands and crosses his fingers.

"You know what, let's talk magic instead. How about we go outside? We have moving small objects, illusions, lie detection, telepathy, teleportation, transmutation of animals into persons, and temporary object creation. We do not have magic derived from aesthetics – our magic is based on topology and mathematics. Bards can cast spells from performance art, but we're not bards. Oath magic isn't a thing, but there is magic for forcing someone to take or not take some action.

I can demonstrate some but not all of the spells. Some spells simply cannot be cast by the form of magic wizards use, and some spells I don't have in my spellbook. And I cannot demonstrate all my spells to you, because we are only able to cast a certain number of spells per day. Actually, I'm not sure if my spells will refresh here. Will they, Bar? I'm pretty sure they would – sleeping in a Golarian timeless demiplane will restore my slots – but I want to be sure. If not, then I'll only cast cantrips for you."

:Although time does not pass in your world while you are here, time still passes normally for you. With regard to spellcasters, I have found that all magic-users which have a limited quantity of magical energy to expend find that their magical energy refills normally if only time and sleep are necessary to recover said energy. I am quite sure that your 'spell slots' will refresh if you spend a day here.:

When he mentions magic for forcing actions, Jenwy feels a bit frustrated that she can't feel anything from the mind-reading spell.

"Oh, math magic!  We've got that too - not as common, but I've read a few books with it.  They usually go into the magic-science genre, where magic can be studied in every detail and you can make up magic devices to sort of take the place of all the machines in the real world - excuse me, in Ev - and advance the art of magic like science and technology.

"How do magic devices work in your world?

"I wasn't expecting you to really do an oath ritual; you're Chaotic after all!  But if it doesn't work the same way, can you at least fake it... how temporary are those temporary conjured objects?"

He adjusts his position on the stool.

"What's science? Bar's translation effect isn't helping me. Magic devices work by means of enchanted spellsilver. Spellsilver is a rare metal that is able to hold and stabilize magic. By infusing spellsilver on an item, you can place a permanent spell on it that, depending on the spell used, produces magic effects. We are wearing many magic items right now." He taps his cape, belt, tiara-crown-band-thing, amulet, rings, and the sheath on his hip.

"It depends. Many conjuration and evocation spells produce some sort of effect that dissipates after some time, usually in minutes. However, if we consider 'creation' strictly, then it depends on what you're conjuring. Minor Creation can create nonliving vegetable matter for several hours. Major Creation can create mineral matter too, but for a shorter duration. The amount of time the matter lasts depends on how strong you are as a caster – for us, it lasts more than half the day. If you have matter that is not conjured, you can instantly create an item using it via Fabricate, but it requires that you are capable of holding the full form and function of the item in question in your head at once. That's permanent."

He laughs. "Yes, that's what makes Detect Thoughts so devious. If you had blocked it, there's a chance that you might notice a prying sensation. Many spells can be resisted in some way that negates or weakens their effect. If you want, I can cast Lesser Geas on you. The spell requires that you explicitly state what conditions the target must fulfill, and I'll let you decide what conditions you want. You can have it be as mundane as 'walk in a circle three times', or something. Though, of course, I use different wordings normally.

It is enchantment magic, which is my specialty. Conrad's specialty is transmutation. More basic magic lessons for you: there are eight or nine schools of magic, depending on how you count. There is abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, necromancy, illusion, transmutation, and universal. Many wizards specialize in one school, though some decide to be universalists and do not specialize. There are only five universal spells, and they do not belong to any school: Prestidigitation, Arcane Mark, Permanency, Limited Wish, and Wish."

"You don't have science?"  Areli grins.  This's starting to sound like another genre of books, where someone's isekaied to another world and opens up their minds to science and works out the whole industrial infrastructure from scratch.

"Science is figuring out how the world works without magic and then using that to figure out how to get it to do what you want without magic.  You might figure out how to build better ships, or better waterwheels, or use the waterwheels to turn machines that will sew cloth for you -- you do have waterwheels, right?  That work without any magic?  Anyway, science is figuring out things like exactly how the water turns the waterwheel, so you can predict how other sorts of waterwheel will work without actually having to build all of them.

"And in your world" (Areli's forgotten the name "Golarion" too), "I hope people have been doing science with figuring out how spellsilver works, so they can predict how other sorts of magical device will work even before they make them?

"... and how does spellsilver work, by the way?"

Jenwy would really like to touch one of their magical devices.  A moment later, she realizes that she doesn't even need to put the wish into words.

(Mindreading is convenient, she thinks!)

And yes, she'd like to feel a Geas... Something simple but not too simple; quick but not too quick so she can feel it.  And this part she'd better speak aloud so Areli can hear and check it over; that  part's in so many novels.  "Can you Geas me to dance a few steps of a waltz, even though you don't know the dance?"

"What's an isekai? I heard you say it too when you came in. Yes, we have waterwheels for milling and such. I'm not sure why you would have a specific word for that. That just sounds like technology, or engineering, or...figuring stuff out. Thinking.

You can predict how a magical device will work from the spellform. That's how you identify unknown magical items too – you cast Detect Magic or a similar spell and peer into the shape of it. That will tell you its function. 

Er, what do you mean? How to work spellsilver, as in put it into items? I don't think Bar will let me do that."