"Hypothetically, suppose I take my profits owed to me under my compact with Cheliax, then turn their country into ash without warning."

" - well, I would have to say that it seems to me that murdering people is not, especially, dealing fairly with them. And we are in fact instructed not to war except in self-defense. It's something of a special case, since under what circumstances a people will go to war is important to be able to predict about them, if you want to avoid wars."

"That's because it's contrary to Abadar's nature to threaten people into working with you.  Or eliminate options they had that benefited you less, in order to steer them onto a course that benefits you more, if they're then foolish enough to take their nearsightedly-self-interested-act in response to your doing that.  People from Golarion can't tell the difference between glassing Cheliax as threat, and glassing Cheliax as a thing you decided to do without that being an attempt to force them into anything, so Abadar just tells you not to do all of it."

"I can tell the difference.  Hence the specification about my just destroying the country without warning."

"I do not think that Abadar would maintain a cleric relationship with someone who goes around committing mass murders. I think of that as an extension of the commitment to - fair trading - and I'm unsure, if there's some way that mass murders are fair trading, about whether it'd apply, but -

- but it seems to me that it's really obviously not dealing fairly with someone to annihilate them for your own purposes."

"Huh.  Not as I understand the logic of Coordination, they'd just be paving stones you were stepping on instead of agents you were coordinating with at all."

"Well, either there's more to Abadar than I understood myself, or less to him than you think.  Abadar paid Asmodeus to try to have me teach Osirion, which, again, I intend to do, but that payment to Asmodeus would be expected to result in some number of people going to Hell, which seems noticeably worse than just killing somebody for your own purposes."

"I don't.... think so? There's a difference between selling knives, which someone could then on their own go use to stab an innocent person for profit, and stabbing innocent people for your own gain yourself. And I think it is - profoundly not in the nature of Abadar - to treat any being as a paving stone rather than an agent that can be traded with in its own right."

"You are drawing some distinction that is not in the math I know.  If I sold Cheliax a weapon that I expected them to use to glass Lastwall, I would be treating Lastwall as a paving stone, because if I actually cared I obviously wouldn't sell Cheliax the weapon."

"I'm not seeing how to reconcile your view with Abadar trading with Asmodeus.  Abadar, probably, expected there to be more fair trading, in the end, than if Abadar hadn't made that bargain, but it also tossed some number of expected people into Hell, and they wouldn't get any of the gains from the trade either.  That seems consistent only with the view of Abadar sometimes doing things that benefit Abadar's interests and squash mortals, providing that Abadar isn't coordinating with the mortals who got squashed.  Abadar is still viewing those mortals as agents that can trade with each other, and whose fair trade he values even when it's not with him.  But Abadar's not trading with those mortals unfairly, in the course of giving Asmodeus the resources to damn them, he's trading with Asmodeus."

"Ensuring you didn't get mind-controlled very much reduces the number of beings in Hell, compared to if Abadar had not traded with Asmodeus at all!"

"Doubt either of those gods knew that at the time.  Otherwise, Abadar sure shit all over Asmodeus in the course of paying Asmodeus way less than Abadar putatively knew I was worth to Asmodeus."

" - well, yes! Because that's how Asmodeus likes to conduct trades!"

"If Abadar had that kind of asymmetrical information advantage he would have paid to deliver me directly to Osirion -"

"Sorry, I forgot I was in a civilized country.  It sounds like a Commune could maybe settle this question, do you want to bet on it in advance of asking?"

"Sure, but we'll have to figure out a specification. I doubt Abadar knew exactly how valuable you were, but I imagine He knew much more than He let on in negotiating with Asmodeus, because Asmodeus prefers negotiations where the parties keep some secrets."

"Did Abadar expect that the trade he was making with Asmodeus would result in fewer mortals going to Hell... no, there could've been some offset where the Abyss loses a lot and Hell gains a little.  Did Abadar expect fewer mortals going to all Evil afterlives... no, Abadar might've expected population growth.  I'd ask about net injury to all mortal interests, but I don't expect Abadar to have a clear definition of that, unless Abadar can read what I really mean out of my mind?"

"I doubt Abadar has a clear definition of that. You could ask, for a random citizen of Golarion, whether Abadar thinks they'd have paid Him to make or not make that deal, with the information Abadar had at the time? But I don't know if He'll know the answer to that either."

"Did Abadar expect a higher percentage of all mortals going to Evil afterlives as a result of making that trade with Asmodeus, even if it was only a very small fraction, like if Asmodeus would make a few more first-circle clerics that way."

" - I mean, I'd expect it to also matter a great deal to Abadar why the mortals went to Evil afterlives. If it's because Asmodeus invented some new Evil activity which mortals enjoy so much they're willing to knowingly and with full information be damned about it, then - fine?"

"And what percentage of the people in Evil afterlives are there for reasons like that, where they got a fair share of gains, sufficient to offset their real loss from being tortured forever?"

"I don't know. I'd imagine not very many of them, but people do surprise me with their willingness to do things they'll be judged Evil for without really all that much reason as I see it. I imagine from Abadar's perspective it's an even harder question to answer."

"In hypothetical dath ilan minus 6 Intelligence points, the vast majority of people doing Evil things and going to Evil afterlives about that, are doing that because they are nearsighted and stupid.  Is it very different in Golarion, because of masochists, submissives, people who would enjoy Hell much more than dath ilani would?"

" - no, it's because they're nearsighted and stupid, I think, for the most part. I am not sure that Abadar thinks that their informed trades don't count if their reason is 'they're nearsighted and stupid' - after all, from His perspective, we all are."

"Then I cannot, in the next six seconds, figure out how to factor that into a bet on whether Abadar expected a higher total fraction of mortal beings in Evil afterlives as a result of executing that trade with Asmodeus.  We could ask whether Abadar's payment to Asmodeus came with any specifications that Asmodeus not use it to the net disadvantage of mortals."

"Fair. I don't particularly expect He did that, though I suppose if it were cheap to ask it'd be a strong sign of - whatever you're looking for."

"I am trying to figure out whether Abadar cares, and whether Abadar sometimes in the service of his own interests trades with Asmodeus in a way that causes more mortals to end up as paving stones in Hell."

"Do you have any test you do expect to turn up positive, as a strong sign about that?"

"Setting aside that I think in Hell mortals mostly turn into devils not paving stones, it seems unlikely that is never a consequence of trades Abadar makes - including trades He makes with many many entities other than Asmodeus. Presumably sometimes He clerics someone who is going to start a hugely prosperous trading empire but whose co-founder is going to buy a lot of slaves as a result or something. But as the world gets richer, there'll be much less of that, and eventually mortals will be rich enough to just get what we want - or at least that's presumably the hope.

You could ask Abadar whether He thinks mortals, when we're richer and more knowledgeable, will want to trade with Him more or less?"

"That's not the key question from my standpoint."

"I am trying to determine - if I owe Abadar - what I would owe a dispassionate alien thing that traded with Hell's god for exactly as much protection as would ensure the mortal got to say a few things to Osirion eventually, or if I owe Abadar - at least a little of what I would owe to a friend -"

"This conversation has gone beyond the original infohazard, I note, and I free you to say whatever of this in your own best judgment should be said to Osirion."