mad investor chaos Carissa lands on Elie
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"....what exactly do you think happens in Hell?"

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"Asmodeus's slaves are reshaped and reformed to become perfected as devils. Except Peranza because she betrayed the project specifically."

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Élie keeps forgetting that Asmodeans don't think the way ordinary people do. Ideas that should percolate through their understanding of the world – like, the Church lies – hit invisible walls and get stuck instead. 

"Maybe some of them do? I've always assumed eternal torture is the more usual outcome." 

He'd rather be eternally tortured than have his soul twisted into a devil, of course, but that's not the kind of argument Asmodeans find compelling. It makes him sound weak, and, worse, ignorant of his own weakness. He'd crack in a year or fifty. Probably everyone does. Whatever. Until he's damned, he can believe what he likes. 

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"I don't think so! Or, I wouldn't hazard a very strong guess about ratios, but getting eternally tortured is a bad outcome from Asmodeus's perspective. Hell was willing to expend a lot of resources on the project in significant part because it could improve devil training. And eventually he'll figure out a use for almost everyone, if he wins, and if he loses then I guess they all go to the winner."

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"I ...genuinely don't understand why you think eternal torture is bad from Asmodeus's perspective? He likes torture. He clearly likes torture more than he likes effective training, because torture is a terrible way to train people and we're commanded to do it anyway and at least led to believe that's how it works in Hell. I don't see why he'd care if he finds a use for us or not. We're less than worms to him, aren't we? I don't bother to find uses for worms." 

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"I would, if I had a lot of worms! And Asmodeus isn't Zon-Kuthon, he might value torture in itself or only instrumentally but the core of what He is is tyranny, slavery, pride, an afterlife that's mostly torture doesn't satisfy that. I do think Cheliax has more torture than is optimal for training people because it's heretical to torture less on purpose and not to torture more on purpose, and that's bad, and when I take over I'll change that, but I don't think most people in Hell are eternally tortured because Cheliax is excessively enthusiastic about punishment."

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"The optimal amount of torture for training people is none, because torture just makes people weak and brainless, that's what it's for. You don't torture someone to make them capable, you do it because when they're terrorized they don't think of fighting back. And I guess because it makes tyranny more perfect and slavery more complete, or because not wanting to torture people is almost like respecting them as thinking beings, I don't pretend to understand how the system works. The one thing I'm reasonably sure of is that Hell's a hierarchy, and most of the people in it aren't at the top, and that means they get tortured. ...If your friend was the sort of person who'd risk her soul to betray you, she probably wasn't devil material anyway. If that's any comfort." 

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"I have been tortured in a way that was specifically and carefully calculated to make me stronger, and it worked, so I know it's possible."

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"Is this related to your pathological thing with the princess? Whatever she did to you, I'm sure there's a better way to accomplish it and it only looked impressive because it's in fact extremely difficult to make anyone stronger by torturing them!" 

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"Nah, I think it was just objectively pretty impressive. And I don't know how you'd achieve it, otherwise. I tried achieving the same thing in my students and none of them picked it up at all, it was like talking to a brick wall.

 

I levelled from it."

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"You can also do that by killing royalists. What did she give you, that you haven't been able to reproduce?" 

If it's really true that torture can do something for people that can't be replicated by other means, then – of course he desires to believe it. The truth is always worth knowing. If being tortured could help him level, he'd do it in a heartbeat.

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On some level it's ridiculous to say anything at all to this stranger. On another - 

- it's not like she was doing so great, figuring it out by herself. 

 

"She arranged, with actors and a little bit of mind control, for me to believe I'd fucked up the project and Keltham had walked out on us and now I was going to be turned into a statue. I don't - I'd much rather go to Hell even if it is eternal torture, I can't just stop. So I tried to kill myself. Woke up in her laboratory, neatly bound but there was - spellsilver, about six feet away on a shelf. I thought, well, if I can use that spellsilver to change my armillary amulet into an arrow of human-slaying -"

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If she's still listening, Élie is thinking a lot of things. Like "that's objectively really impressive" and "I don't see how the torture enters into it" and "what kind of idiot exists in Cheliax without a means of committing suicide, I haven't done that since I was nine." 

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Her Detect Thoughts has tragically run out. "She let me waste several thousand gold in spellsilver on trying, before she stopped me. I said - I don't remember exactly, but something that'd obviously get the Queen of Cheliax to light you on fire, and she did, but it wasn't - defensive, she wasn't scared of what I was telling her, she wanted more of it. She kept demanding I feel things, instead of being too afraid to feel them - think things, instead of being too afraid to think them - 

- I wasn't stupid enough to think begging for my life would possibly have any effect. But - I thought I was stronger than she thought I was, and if I was wrong that was worth knowing too - so I said to her, your majesty, do you think that you could hurt me until I wanted you to stop. I was hoping - she'd take the challenge - and then I could go on existing, for as long as I could endure it - when I say I'd want to go to Hell even if it is just eternal torture that's how I know, she hurt me and hurt me and when she stopped I was terrified that now it was over, because it was something -

- I told her things. Every feeling I could think of, because she wanted it, because I could buy time with it. I stopped being - you know - afraid of being pathetic above everything else, and I said that I was scared, and I said that I was lonely, and I said that I loved Keltham, and had wanted so many things, and she petted me and tortured me and then eventually turned me to stone, slowly, while I tried very hard to stop her.

And then I woke up in her bed and she petted my hair while I cried and told me how impressive I was, and how well I'd done, and how pleased she was, and told me not to pull myself together too quickly lest I ruin her hard work, and promised me that that would never happen to me by her orders, never, no matter how I betrayed her, because the terror of it was making me weaker. 

 

I do not expect you to agree that this was good behavior but I think it was - something I couldn't have gotten anywhere else."

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"...I think that's very sad. I also remember the first time I told my best friend how I felt – that I had feelings at all, really – that I was so terrified of dying I could barely think, and how much I hated myself for being too weak to do anything about it. I'd done some fairly terrible things to him. And he forgave me, and told me that he loved me, and he didn't torture me at all.

I think human beings need very, very badly to be loved. We're very big on friendship in this revolution because it's good for group loyalty but we're also all just desperate for it. I think denying it is one of the worst harms Cheliax does to us. I'm not especially afraid of being pathetic, I accepted that about myself a long time ago, but it helped me so much to be able to be weak in front of someone who wanted me to be stronger, and everyone should have that, and it shouldn't have to come with pain. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for her. If I ever have children I'm going to tell them I'm proud of them and want to keep them safe and maybe they'll have less stupid problems than we do."  

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" - I feel like you're imagining that I wish that had happened without the torture, but I - don't? I think it would've been less effective. Keltham loves me - loved me - it's not about human connection, it's about having someone hurt you but not pointlessly, try to get you to a specific state so they can show you something -"

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"Did Keltham know what you were? Would he have loved you if he had?"

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"Of course not."

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"Then you didn't have a human connection, you had a lie. Maybe the torture was a material component of whatever happened to you, but I'd be willing to bet that's because the torture is the only thing we grow up with that's reliable and real. I always found being punished in school very – hmm, not comforting, but grounding, since it's the one time you don't have to pretend you're anything other than in pain. That doesn't mean torture is good, it's just fixing a problem I'd never have had in the first place if I wasn't raised by Asmodeans! That's all it is. The Gisela who wasn't already broken wouldn't need the princess to torture her about it." 

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"No one isn't broken! You can enslave people to different things, or you can let them run around in meaningless anarchy, but even dath ilan isn't - not shaping people. If anything it's just much better at doing it effectively."

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"Dath Ilan – that's Castrovel, then? How do they torture children?"

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"I don't think they torture them. They just test them, to see how much they turned out like they want their civilization to be in the future, and they teach them a lot of Law, so they'll cooperate with each other and not try to learn things they're not supposed to learn."

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"But of course you think that Hell is better at shaping souls than dath ilan, because you think torture is necessary – " 

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"No, dath ilan is probably much better at it. Though I do rather doubt that the ideal way to shape souls involves never hurting them."

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