If he cared more about attaining Heaven than about the people of Cheliax he would have stayed there, but it would not even slightly help to point that out.

"The honored Archduchess has told us much these past few days about which ordinary policies, used by nearly every government on Golarion, she considers to be so unforgivably Evil as to damn anyone who dares propose them. Nearly every time she speaks, she condemns those who disagree with her as Evil, whether the topic is censorship, public executions, or any other matter. She condemns the lords and magistrates of nearly every country in the world as damned, and asks you to take on faith that this is true. 

Perhaps if it were the Archduchess's assessment you were to face at Judgment, this ought to move you. But it is Pharasma's court, not the Archduchess's, that weighs your soul. I cannot say how She will judge those of us in this room, though I know how she judged me once, and I would not wish to ask any man here to vote against his conscience; but She did not condemn me in my first life, and if I allowed fear of the Archduchess's condemnation to overwhelm the voice of my conscience urging me to protect my fellow subjects from anarchy, I would not wish to count on Pharasma judging me kindly for it.

But let us set aside the Archduchess's spurious accusations and consider her proposal on its own merits.

The honored archduchess forgets, perhaps, to clarify one of the more important aspects of her proposal." He takes out a copy of the Rights Committee transcripts.

"Our honored Archduchess is wrong when she says that these punishments are Evil, and wrong when she says that the men who propose them are, but most importantly for this discussion she is wrong on two matters of great significance. The first is whether riots like the ones we all just witnessed happened in Westcrown under the Thrunes. They did not. Because everyone knew they'd die horribly, and so they didn't do it. They did it in distant cities like Pezzack and Kintargo, far from the might of the state, precisely because it is more difficult to deter misconduct more distant from a Queen's base of power. In other words, the history of Asmodean Cheliax is a perfect example of how deterrence by torture does work to prevent riots.

She would have you believe that men are nothing but beasts, whose decision to riot or nor is determined only by, as she testified in Valia Wain's defense, the temperature of the city; but rioters are men, and they think of whether they will die and how they will die when they decide whether to go out into the streets or not. Of course they do! Think on the riskiest thing you've done; did you consider whether you might die? Of course you did! Anyone who did not do that is dead before adulthood! Yes, torture deters riots, in every species more intelligent than a dog.

The second important matter in which she is wrong is that she says this will be done to you. Delegates, have you since the amnesty raped and murdered your way through our city? Do you make sacrifices to Urgathoa in a secret altar in your basement? No! So this will not be done to you. This will be done to the men who butcher your families. This will be done to the men who invite the curse of evil gods to this land. The most revealing part of the Archduchess's speech was her insistence that those of us who disagree with her in this matter, who believe differently than she does on how best to make this country a safe place, that we are bad men and that even if we were found Lawful Good and went to Heaven as the Count Cerdanya was that is only because the Judge, I suppose, must not be as wise as Jilia Bainilus.

She does not see you as her countrymen. This is not how one speaks of their countrymen. She sees the people of Cheliax as mindless beasts too stupid to act on their own interests. She sees you as rapists and murderers best appealed to by proposing that you want your own hanging to be swift.

That is not my vision for this country. That is not my impression of you delegates. I think that you are much wiser and much better than the Archduchess believes you are, and that your desire to see justice done does not make you Evil but indeed makes you Good. I understand that delicate stomachs might have difficulty with such subjects, and that it is her own admirable delicacy that moves the Archduchess to oppose all matters bloody or gory. But that is not a sound basis for policy, and it does not make you a bad man to disagree with her.

That said, if you are a rapist, a diabolist and a murderer, then just as the Archduchess says, you should vote this biill down. This is not a bill friendly to rapists, diabolists, and murderers. The Archduchess is right that it should not garner their vote."

"Thank you, Your Excellency, I quite agree."

"Liar," she hisses at Bellumar.

It's a good thing that Alicia has a good poker face, because otherwise she'd definitely be having a reaction to how as soon as it's commoners being called diabolists he's enthusiastic about them being tortured to death instead of outraged at asking them to repent.

"Are you quite well, Archduchess?" he asks as he passes her by on his way back to his seat. 

She doesn't need to respond. He heard her the first time.

Enric steps up to speak. It feels strange, knowing what the fight would be and having time to prepare.  

"Iomedae found a way to run a country without burning anyone at the stake or breaking anyone on the wheel. If we need an answer to what punishments are 'necessary for public safety and public order' and Iomedae gave us that answer, I'm ready to trust her. If doing it her way only works in a country guided by the good gods, let's be a country guided by the good gods. Or, at least let's give it a try before we give up on the idea."

"That's why the rights committee law lets us add new sentences, but only if the church of Iomedae approves. Maybe it is true that the people of Cheliax have been so hurt and corrupted by living under hell, that the sentences Lastwall uses wouldn't be enough for us. Or maybe we aren't that corrupted, and the gods of good can redeem us. I would rather try, ask them if we have a chance, and only bring back tortures if they say it's the only way."

"As for whether the common people have to fear any punishments we bring back.... Out in the countryside, the paladins are the law. Lawful and good, with the blessings protecting against greed and corruption, they decide fairly who to put to death and who to spare. We won't always have them around to be judges."

That is hopefully not getting too close to the slander law, but Enric still feels like it's too close. There's really no other way to say what he wants to, though, which is reminding everyone how many innocent men and women the old magistrates put to death.

Torture is barbaric. A rational, civilized society that considers people worse than nothing should use a Final Blade and can use a regular one.

Whatever means are needed to keep the rabble under control.

"If you ask me, it seems a lot kinder to burn a diabolist or a murderer at the stake than to cut off their head. Lots of Evildoers have convinced themselves that they'll be one of the devils ruling in Hell, or one of the big strong demons in the Abyss, or that even if they won't they've got some Evil that's just so important they'd rather damn themselves than give it up. If you cut off their head, that's it, they're dead and damned. But fire's slow, and more importantly it shows people what's waiting for them. Give a man time to think, give him a taste of what Hell'll do to him, and maybe he'll realize he doesn't want to go there after all, and he'll repent and ask the Sun for mercy."

This is not going to work. It might weaken him on the fight that really matters. Although it's possible that doesn't matter, since he can't speak on the one that matters anyway. 

But the church thinks it's worth fighting.

"One year ago, I asked the Church of Iomedae in Lastwall to send priests to Menador, to help us draw out the poison of infernal rule. The very first change they told me to make - the very first evil they told me that we must uproot, more urgently than any other - was the evil of torture. They told me that execution by torture is always evil. And they told me that it is not necessary; that men who are not dissuaded by an eternity of torment in the Abyss will not be dissuaded by a few hours of torture before they die.

I believed them that it was evil. I believed that every time I ordered it, I blackened my soul further. But when they told me that it was not necessary, I did not believe them. I thought that killing men painlessly would result in more crime, that we would see a rise in lawlessness, and that the people would be less safe than they were. But as it was very important to them, and as I did not, at that point, trust my own judgement in matters of good and evil, I listened anyway. Today in Menador, all men who are executed meet their end either by hanging, or by the axe. 

There is no more crime in Menador today than there was two years ago. If there is more murder, it is only because we began counting infanticides, which have themselves become much less common. If there is more rape, it is only because we began counting men forcing themselves on their indentured servants. There is not more banditry. There is not more assault. I am not aware of any rioting whatsoever.

I do believe it was important that Menador made fewer changes than other regions. Consistency, as far as I can tell, is enough, and I am not at all convinced that torture can substitute for it. Whatever I thought torture was adding to it, it seems it is not. Whatever I thought I was purchasing at cost of a piece of my soul, it seems that I already had. 

I am sure there are many evils which come with real sacrifices, if one gives them up. But for those who believe that torture is one of them - that it is a necessary evil, whether among all men, or among only those who are used to hell's rule - I can tell you only that I checked, and found that it is not. And there are enough evils in this world which are painful to reject, without also staining our souls with those which give us absolutely nothing."

That sounds improbable to Xavier. There's plenty of soldiers who will sneer at twenty lashes who won't at eighty, and he doesn't see why the principle would change at that level.

That.. is a rather counterintuitive conclusion.  But the fact that it’s so counterintuitive means it’s a good opportunity to show allegiance to Iomedae and rejection of Asmodeus.

Setting aside whether it is true or false for now… It seems some of the leftover nobility actually align with Iomedae’s church and in turn the progressive nobles?  Or maybe it’s just this one issue where they all line up?  Dia hopes the upcoming Kortos Tavern meeting has people that have also been paying attention, so they can work together to actually figure out who is aligned with who.

"Your Highness, I am glad that the abolition of torturous executions has yet to cause problems in Menador. It gives me hope that such executions can be used very sparingly. But I do not think that the example of Menador is sufficient to say that such punishments should be completely outlawed in the entire Empire. Perhaps there is less crime because there are fewer laws to break. Perhaps those men at risk of turning to banditry have yet to hear about the change in policy. Perhaps riots are less of a concern in Menador because it has fewer large cities. I cannot say for certain. 

This law does not require torturous punishments, merely permits them. If it proves to be the case that torture is as unnecessary as you believe, then they need not continue to be used. But by the same token, I cannot abide by the archduchess's proposal to permanently enshrine a ban on all such punishments into our constitution, with no affordance for resuming them even if her proposal should prove disastrous."

"I got in line to say something a lot like what the Archduchess said. You may imagine my voice joined to hers. But since she already said it, I'll say something new.

"Earlier this week a man came to my church and spoke to me about his sins on the night of the third. You can know from the fact that this meeting happened in the church and not in the dungeon that nobody had already caught him. We prayed together about his eternal fate. And then I advised him to turn himself in to the Queen's justice, and we talked about whether his repentance was such that he'd need the Final Blade or not, and I walked there with him and he went inside and did not come out again.

"No step of this process can happen if the Queen's justice is torture. If it is ever torture. If it might change from the last time I read a decree to the moment his sentence is passed down from 'never torture' to 'sometimes torture'. And if you don't care about that man's soul the way I do, maybe you can care about the fact that I brought him to the palace to be tried and that he is no longer walking the streets.

"Maybe you think he'd have been caught anyway after a few more days? Maybe, or maybe he'd get on a boat. You think he'd have been more restrained on the third if he'd attended a few breakings upon the wheel? Maybe, but we've just determined it's not going to be obligatory to watch them, and a man's impulses in a chaotic situation do not admit of going over all the pros and cons! Maybe you think I should have to turn him in whether he'd cooperate with that or not? You can take as long as you will to send me home to Nirvana and I will still insist on being worthy of it. I will not send anyone to be tortured. And if I would, he should not come to me in the first place."

Note to self never confess your sins to Shelynites, as long as the Queen's justice isn't torture they'll turn you in!

Oh, he bets they can hurt her enough to make her no longer worthy of Nirvana.

"Honored delegate, it is common practice in civilized countries for those who turned themselves in willingly to be spared from torturous punishments." Which is not to say that it always happens, but this does seem like a relatively safe and reasonable place to experiment. "I do not know if that would be sufficient to assuage your concerns, but I would support a resolution to enshrine such protections into our constitution, if one is brought to the floor."

"I don't like either of these proposals. Back home, if we catch someone trying to steal our cattle, we break his legs so he can't run and leave him outside to die of thirst or wolves, whichever comes first — and we haven't had a cattle rustler in years, so clearly we're doing something right. Anyone who wants to call that Evil just because we aren't being nice enough to the cattle thieves has never had to figure out whether skipping meals so their children can eat will leave them better off, or just mean it's longer before they starve too."

"It is certainly true that this proposal would prohibit that, yes."

Reflexively standing up as soon as dying outside is mentioned, speaking up in a loud stern voice.

“If you leave cattle thieves in the woods to die, they rise up as skeletons. Don’t do that.”

"I don't think this is a particularly complicated problem. We need punishments to deter crime, or else our country will be overrun with it; we are not all of us blessed as Menador apparently is. But we also do not want the punishments to be arbitrarily decided by each judge, so that a thief in Ostenso gets thrice the punishment of a thief in Westcrown, or for every lord mayor and magistrate to have to determine for themselves exactly what sentence is appropriate. A reasonable country might draw the lines of what crime goes with which punishment differently than did Cheliax of old, but any code of laws that could maintain order across the empire would look similar to this, and it's a tried and tested law that we know will work. I will be voting in favor of the proposal."

Silvia heard about this proposal from Thea's discussion of the convention notes yesterday. She's not going to call torturing people intrinsically wrong or anything. The Archduchess who didn't like the law against talking was against it though. She was saying it was evil. It might be a necessary evil, of course. Silvia still wanted to know. She dug through her pack, and found some of Arbat's letters. Nobody else wanted them. They were informative.

She's not going to say whether torture is a good idea. She just knows the answer to this particular question. Everyone else should know it too.

 "This Convention intends to make rules for Cheliax. These rules should not be made for Lastwall. They should not be made for Taldor. Cheliax is its own place, with its own people. As we all know, there is one group which tried to understand the Chelish. One group watched us for decades to learn about how we respond to things. I speak, of course, of the church of Asmodeus. 

 "Fortunately, among the matters they investigated was this one. How will the Chelish people respond to slow, publicized, torturous executions? Are they evil? We don't need to guess. They checked. They did not check whether they were a necessary evil, of course. They just saw what effects the executions had. Here are some of the things they said.

"'Last year's thought detection sweep included an investigation of your assigned town's thoughts on Hell. When it came up in nearby conversation, a full fifteen people were terrified of eternal torture. As you should know, Chosen, this thought is common among peasants who repent and flee Asmodeus's grasp. Properly trained peasantry should recognize Hell as a mere continuation of their life, not as an atypical and extraordinary increase in pain levels. Further investigation revealed most of the terrified people had almost no fear of being personally tortured, and had only personally viewed one slow execution in the last year. Chosen, this is an order: over the next year, you must execute at least three people, by a method at least as long-lasting as impaling. Asmodeus's gaze rests on you.'

"'Chosen, your increased execution schedule has improved the acceptance of Hell. This year's thought detection sweep has, however, revealed a new problem. Your village properly understands they will inevitably go to Hell, and furthermore understands Hell's torture more painful than any mortal torment. The slower death inflicted by impalement is therefore rumored to be a mercy, postponing the pain of Hell for your favored wrongdoers. The reported petty treason case was thus encouraged in her crime against the hierarchy by believing you and Asmodeus prefer it to lesser crimes. Such blasphemy deserves a greater penalty. Chosen, this is an order: by next year, your peasants must both understand the torments of Hell and fear committing blasphemy and violating the hierarchy more than injury to chattels.'

 "'...your new program of arbitrarily selecting from your population and publicly torturing them as blasphemers has successfully reduced the attention paid to Hell among your peasants, and the standard prompt for recent evil actions found twenty cases of petty cruelty in the week before thought detection, as opposed to the fifteen from last year. Chosen, your success is commended. On other matters...' "

The slips disappear into the indistinguishable veil as the reading finishes.

"If your peasants do not expect to be tortured, they will act to escape Hell. If they do, they will simply accept torture as the way of things. They must understand the feel of Hell, and worry over other matters. Ensure Hell does not stand out to them. Then their petty struggles will lead them naturally to Evil and they will come to us. Chosen, this is an order: You must vote to legalize torturous execution.

"—ah, my apologies. I lost track of what room I was in. The letters do have a certain pattern to them. There were more I had to read. I don't want to take up too much time on the floor, though. Let me amend that. Your Excellency. Your Excellencies. Delegates. You, instead, must vote, ah, whether to legalize torturous execution."

Wow going to the Worldwound was the best thing he ever did and he did it on a whim.