Carlota is not sure what they get by making Cayden happy but she's not going to say that to the Caydenite.

"It looks like tomorrow we are going to have several fights about torture. Urban Order passed a measure restoring the old Arodenite punishments and Rights a dueling one proposing Lastwall's." 

Carlota does not actually object to torturous punishment, at all. But she is the Church's now and they do. "I don't actually think that fight is winnable in general but it might be winnable via the Reclamation all saying 'look, we're half the justice system and we can't sentence people to being slowly disemboweled'."

Oh gods do they have to keep being half the justice system to prevent people from being slowly disemboweled.

"That might decide it. Though I don't believe the proposal actually requires it to be used."

What's wrong with slowly disemboweling people. 

She has enough sense to not ask that. 

"See, I think that makes it a much harder argument, because 'we shouldn't usually torture people to death' is a much easier argument than 'the magistrate should not under any circumstances have discretion about it'. If no lord of Cheliax has a very lurid story about a man who figured he had nothing left to lose and went on to do several more disturbing atrocities he could probably have been deterred from if he did have anything to lose then I'll be astounded. I have a few, frankly, though I don't mean to get up there and tell them."

"Is the proposal to torture people to death for repeated capital crimes? In the hopes they'll stop at one?"

"I think that is a common case where it's popular but not the only one. ...maybe the Church can win 'not at the magistrate's discretion' where it couldn't win 'under specific and limited circumstances' because of the tendency of the body to assume that whatever the rules are they will be applied in the most evil possible way. ....Tallandria, I don't know if this is an issue you feel strongly about in any direction but you are the acknowledged expert at making that argument to the sortitions."

It helps that she firmly in her heart believes it, although she's not sure that she cares deeply about torturous executions in particular. "I can try. What punishments were used under Aroden?"

"Beyond Lastwall; pillory, outlawry, hard labor up to ten years including the mines, garroting, burning, breaking on the wheel, and 'turning to parts', which my clerk told me was worthy of Rugatonn or Abrogail but didn't clarify. They might have worked fine for Arodenites who were mostly Neutral but I don't think we'll get our people to Axis without trying to get them to Heaven so I'm against them."

"I'm not actually sure I agree with that, your highness. Aiming for Axis and aiming for Heaven are very different, and I think that a population which is variously damaged might correctly recognize Heaven isn't attainable and give up. The argument I would make instead is that we were planning to change all of the old laws! Aroden was supposed to return! They weren't good enough, and no one thought they were!"

"I think quite a lot of people want to aim for Heaven, whether it's attainable or not, but lack better sources of direction than Vidal-Espinoza's pamphlets. That does seem like a winning argument from someone who can speak to it personally, though."

Were you aiming for Axis the first time?, she almost says lightly to Carlota, but restrains the vicious impulse. Just because she was defeated is no reason to lash out against an ally.

"I'm reasonably sure just trying to get everyone Axis won't work. Their ideas of what is Evil are too narrow - even mine is, I suspect - so that they'll think they're doing well and still half end in Hell. But you may be right, I don't know aiming to push everyone all the way to Good will work much better."

"Most of the people I met on assize claimed that they were aiming for Heaven, but I strongly suspect many of them mistakenly believed that they would be punished for heresy if they told me they were aiming for any other afterlife. The ones who claimed to be aiming for Axis weren't obviously better or worse in general, but I didn't have very much time to get to know any specific people."

"One woman told me she was aiming for Elysium but I think she was lying to try to provoke me, she seemed very startled when I said I hoped she made it but stealing cows wasn't the way to do it."

He did tell Valia that he was aiming for Heaven. He wasn't lying when he said it. It occurs to him now that he doesn't really know how to do much more than stop digging, which... is not going to be sufficient to redirect to anywhere, is it. 

"I would be very hypocritical to dissuade anyone from trying for Heaven, and I do think that among nobles specifically you often end up Evil if you just try to straightforwardly make all the decisions that seem best for your aims without a distinct bias towards Good. But nearly all people aren't nobles and I think 'do as much Good as you've done Evil, for pure self-interested reasons' often lands better than 'you are now supposed to be a soldier in the other army'. - I know that's not what Heaven is. But people don't."

He smiles slightly. "I think something a bit like that is landing very well in Kantaria, but of course Kantaria is very eager to be Iomedae's, for reasons that do not necessarily generalize."

"Kintargo got a ship-full of lay Sarenrites and Shelynites just as I was rescued and revived, based on the ties the Ravens and my homegrown rebels had already made to Andoran, which I think means they're doing better - even Sarenrae's soldiers have a healthier mindset than Heaven's. But that definitely doesn't generalize, without a few dozen more ships landing inland. And I have to admit the bunch of Andoren junior adventurers have caused problems of their own."

"I think Vidal-Espionosa is - what you get, from quite a few people, if they think they're supposed to serve Iomedae now and are guessing for themselves how to do it. Or, you know, informing on their neighbors as inadequate Iomedaens, beating their children bloody with no priests to be had for failing to memorize the Acts -"

Are you supposed to not do that.

Marit grimaces.

Elorri shakes his head sadly.

What the fuck do these people want, for everyone to be perfect Iomedaens without taking any of the actual actions that bring that about, because taking actions is Evil? ...yes, that's probably precisely it.

"We keep begging for more, but of course no more exist. I think perhaps we ought to send some large number of our people to where they grow them. On the third we were discussing how many men we might be able to send to Crusader's Fort. For all I know an entirely voluntary recruitment drive might at this point be very powerful, especially with so many people out of work. That would give the Church resources, rather than taking them, and when the men come home I dare to hope that they might actually know something. I don't know how much spare space the divinity college in Lastwall has, if any, but if it could squeeze in a few more students, then we might consider ways to make that available to some of our people as well."

"The onboarding won't be trivial - a typical divinity student starts with a very different background than a typical Chelish person - but I do think we should be considering recruitment as a way to get people catechized."