Look at Xavier not saying anything at all on the topic.

Korva kind of thought that they were trying to have less slavery in this country.

"That seems like it would suggest that it's very important not to introduce substantive inequalities in the first place, if it will be impossible to roll them back. But I haven't read the code, it's possible that I'm imagining something worse than it actually contains. Obviously the principle matters less than the specific rights in question." She cares kind of a lot about the principle too, though.

The Sower on Family is probably married but he can't bring anything complicated to the floor himself because he can't read. Which is probably not unrelated to how he managed to have little enough contact with the Chelish state that he grew to his present age without suffering disqualifying moral injury.

Llei enters. Because he lives here, and is at this point hearing quite a lot of talking. He is... actually really unclear on what the current rules are for greeting this many people who outrank him at once. 

No one knows and it's terrible, but he can save him. "Napaciza. Where are you, on women's rights?"

That's not saving him, that's handing him a bomb! 

"Which ones?"

"Most urgently right to bring suit and testify, for the bastardy proposal to work at all, which the Code Cyprian does not grant to unmarried women. But we're discussing the matter in general, and how much can be salvaged from Hell's fingers having touched it. Ser Jornet pointed out all the virtuous planes have equality of the sexes, and Her Grace that it will nonetheless be enormously unpopular among many here, and that certainly none of us unmarried women could convince the convention to approve even if Iomedae does."

Carlota would really like more of a signal from her fiancé about the stance of the Church on women's rights before she makes any comments on it that aren't about political viability. She'll just nod along pleasantly. 

"You certainly don't want me speaking on it." There are, what, two extremely powerful noblewomen in this room, a countess, a female paladin, and the sortition from Family? Probably here specifically to talk about the bastardry proposal.

"I would certainly not ban women from using the civil courts, when we have them. I would probably ban conscripting them. I don't think I know anything about what's done in other countries that isn't very probably a lie, and am not particularly sure what else is under threat."

"I can talk about what we did in Taldor, if it's relevant, but in general I would not recommend Taldor as a model."

"I think the legal rights that end up having the most practical significance are the right to join a religious order, which in some countries a women cannot do without her father's permission - and obviously in every country a married woman cannot do without her husband's permission, but that's just common sense - the right to take out a loan or own property, which married women generally cannot do without a marriage contract that sets up a nonstandard arrangement, as in cases where she is titled - the right to file suit, start a business, join a guild, serve in the army or the civil service, or use the civil courts, and the right to divorce or to refuse marriage in the first place. I can't think what else would even be contested, in any direction....whether a woman may be divorced for insubordination, maybe?"

"I would naively think that limiting the rights of married women would discourage marriage. Obviously many married people don't have those, but I don't know why one would want to deny them automatically. I don't immediately see why one would want to limit any of those for women in general, other than divorce."

"The Code Cyprian reserves many rights to married women, for precisely one assumes that reason."

"It probably works better when you've already spent ten years uprooting everything evil and good about your society, and don't need any of your women's support for stability." Other than Minister Cynthia Megane's, so presumably high offices of state earn the rights of men somewhere in there.

"There's a balancing act, I think, because you want to encourage women to marry, but you also want to encourage men to marry, and many propositions to make marriage more attractive to women make it less attractive to men. In a functional society where men can't have women any other way they'll nearly all marry even if this affords them only Lastwall's and not Osirion's privileges over their wives, but I don't think we will be able to bring that about in Cheliax any time soon. Maybe the fine on bastards will be sufficient to do what is ordinarily done by virtue."

"There is an Osirian on the committee who was enthusiastic about the idea of offering various incentives and privileges to married men over unmarried men, not within their marriage but within their communities, which seems like it might accomplish that effect without making things worse for women. I think we might also want to offer some incentives for adoption, but we haven't gotten as far as actually discussing what privileges might be appropriate."

"Would the family committee be the best place to workshop some principles surrounding which orders women ought to be obliged to obey in marriage? This is an interest of mine and I think possibly of particular importance when many of the men around are unreformed Asmodeans."

"There are a lot more women willing to do without for many years if no man meets their standards, than the reverse, so I'd think the balance favoring women would work better. As it is, though, there are many forms of pressure which are legal that nonetheless deny them that option. But banning those also seems very dicey to suggest to the floor."

"The committee's initial attempt at a default set of marriage vows did not include obedience requirements. No one on the committee suggested adding them, that I can recall."

"I am aware of no functioning cultures where women do not promise obedience in marriage. I understand that Asmodeans have a persistent terror of contracts that can be interpreted very broadly and against their interests, and I am in favor of contemplating what bounds ought to be placed on it, but - Asmodeanism has destroyed sex relations in this country, it did that deliberately, and no functional society does likewise with less horrifying results."

"The priests of Iomedae who we brought to Westcrown actually ended up counseling the people of Kantaria against requiring or swearing obedience when they married, after seeing the existing marriages there. Most of the existing ones did include obedience requirements, and they felt that this did not improve them."

"I am not a priest to offer counsel but I think that might be too radical a social experiment for me. I do not see how a man can promise to protect or provide for a woman he cannot command, and if we drop that too then I am not sure what we mean any more by marriage."

Aren't these people supposed to be against slavery???????

"The initial draft from the Family committee actually didn't include those either, although the Osirian thought that it should include a requirement to provide for the woman separate from the children. The initial draft had both parties promise to provide or care for the children of the union, the man promise not to abandon them, and the woman promise to be loyal to her husband. The Osirian thought a husband should also promise to provide for his wife, Sir Goes was concerned that the proposal did not even ambiguously forbid male infidelity, and all of us disagreed on what 'be loyal to' did or should entail, so that part at minimum should probably be rewritten. Notably, this was to be the legal minimum, for use in combination with the bastardry ban; people could additionally be encouraged to swear other vows if desired. But I would expect requiring obedience for a the marriage to be legally valid would cause marriage rates to go down, and condemn quite a few more men to three years of unpaid farm work than I was really hoping for."

"I - would expect if the wording was drawn from Osirian practice, then 'be loyal to' would imply a degree of obedience.

I think that requiring vows of obedience for a legally valid marriage would be a mistake, but it still seems like an important part of a typical marriage, and it would be an impoverished society whose concept of marriage doesn't include that element at all... which does not mean that we should definitely push for obedience vows in marriage now. I think there are things where naively trying to implement the customs of Lastwall or Osirion or Cheliax of old would be bad for Cheliax of today, because those customs rely on a morally healthier population, and I think many things about authority fall into that category."

"I don't know what the legal minimum marriage should be, and perhaps among Asmodeans it cannot oblige obedience. But I think it would be a mistake to enshrine in law and custom Cheliax at its worst and not even - hold up as aspirational - the institution as it functions in a morally healthy society."