how unreasonable can paladins be?
Next Post »
« Previous Post
+ Show First Post
Total: 156
Posts Per Page:
Permalink

That seems reasonable to him. He glances around the room at the other paladins in case there are obvious problems that he missed.

Permalink

"I think this would also be awkward in cases where the crime, once judged, is punished with detention. I believe pamphleteers are at this moment serving thirty day sentences without being the subjects of ongoing investigation."

Permalink

"Of course."

Any free subject of Her Majesty may be detained at any time for the purpose of investigating a crime, and must cooperate with this detention. No free subject of Her Majesty shall be detained except for the purpose of investigating a crime, and only while that crime is duly investigated, while their testimony as to a possible crime is required, or as punishment for a crime of which they have been duly convicted and sentenced to imprisonment. Nothing in this bill shall prohibit the conscription of men for the purposes of the army, nor the payment of taxes in the form of labor.

In the event that subjects are transported great distances in the course of their detention, and particularly if they are Teleported, the crown on releasing them must offer them the means for a safe return to the location they were detained from.

Permalink

This, then, is Bellumar's trap, put forth a law he knows Lluïsa wants, from some informant or another, but poorly drafted, and charge her with slander when she gives a proposed amendment.

What to do?

"I would add—" she chokes. No, you can win this, you are objectively the Empire's foremost jurist, and he's just a radical Galtan.

"My apologies. I would add that a Kidnapper might find Refuge under this Law, it obliging Cooperation with any Detention which may be Twisted into Connection with a Crime, and moreover it may be Easy even if no Connection may be Contrived for said Kidnapper to fool the Unwary but Law-Abiding into such a Belief. My own drafting, though it be Hasty, would read rather:" She scribbles it out as she talks; it's based on earlier drafts she has in memory, altered to follow Bellumar's proposal.

1) Any Person Duly and Lawfully Charged with the Investigation of Crimes and the Enforcement of Law has the power to Detain, for a Limited Time, any free Subject of her Majesty solely for the Purpose of the Investigation of a Specific Crime, or multiple Specific Crimes.

1.a) Such Detention may continue only while such Crimes are Duly and Lawfully Investigated, unless the Detained be then Charged in which case it may continue until Trial, unless the Detained be then Sentenced to Imprisonment in which case it may continue for the Term of Imprisonment.

1.b) If such Detention has continued past a Reasonable Time for Investigation or Trial, and past any Sentence if such was made, the Crown shall Grant a Petition for the Release of the Detained.

2) Any Person Duly and Lawfully Charged with the Investigation of Crimes and the Enforcement of Law has the power to Detain, for a Limited Time, any free subject of her Majesty solely for the purpose of Compelling Testimony in connection with the Investigation of a Specific Crime, or multiple such Specific Crimes.

2.a) Such Detention may continue only while such Crimes are Duly and Lawfully Investigated, unless those Suspected of such Crimes be then Charged in which case it may continue until Trial.

2.b) Such Detention is not the Primary Means of Compelling Testimony, but rather is to be used when the Officers of the Law suspect the Witness may fail to Appear when Duly Summoned.

2.c) If such Detention has continued past a Reasonable Time for Investigation or Trial the Crown shall Grant a Petition for the Release of the Detained.

3) Should any Detention under this Law entail the Transportation of a Subject over a Great Distance, particularly if Teleported, the Crown shall upon their Release provide at its expense their Safe Return to the Location where they were Originally Detained.

4) Except under these Provisions the Crown and those Carrying Out her Majesty's Justice shall not Detain free subjects of her Majesty.

5) For the Avoidance of Doubt, Conscription and the Corvée are not forms of Detention under this Law.

"Have I then made any Obvious Mistakes, colleagues?"

She's sweating a bit, even though legalese is soothing.

Permalink

"I can think of edge cases I'd want to have defined away if we were sure that the judges would always be subject to an extremely narrow Geas, but if we're not sure of that I would rather avoid making the laws too long and complicated."

Permalink

"I also don't want to make the laws long and complicated, it'll scare the floor. But there's one bit here that seems too vague. It would seem improper for agents of the Crown to have the authority to declare they are 'conscripting' a citizen outside the ordinary processes of conscription in order to avoid being accused of improperly detaining them, and improper in a way this law intends to bar. Likewise with the corvée. Does a strategy occur to you to, without committing us to write all of the rules of conscription and the corvée on the spot, prevent the abuse of those as exceptions? Mine specified that conscription is for the army, not any occasion the Crown wants to demand labor, and the corvée in the place of coin taxation, in an attempt at that narrowing."

Permalink

"It's now clearly limited to the Crown, at least, so I believe we're in no danger of accidentally abolishing apprenticeship contracts. I don't know that it's wise to attempt to forbid the Queen from using conscription for any circumstances other than the army, but perhaps we can limit conscription to those tasks which have been explicitly named by the Queen's written law."

Permalink

How is this building Bellumar's slander case, and how can she thwart it here and now...

"Well noticed, Count Bellumar, Delegate Llovera, my thanks. Strike 'Conscription' and insert 'the Lawful Forms of Conscription', strike 'the Corvée' and insert 'the Lawful Fulfillment of Obligations of Taxation by the Corvée', perhaps."

Permalink

"How about 'conscription or the corvée as authorized by a decree of the Queen or the convention, on the terms given in that authorization'."

Permalink

"A fair Wording for the Moment though it may require future Amendment... but much of what we now Draft shall, it is the Early Days. I worry only that Necessary Conscription may exist under Forms the Queen or Convention have not yet reached... perhaps on the Border Marches, for instance. But I am a City Dweller and would hear from one Better-Versed."

Permalink

"Is there in fact a process for amendment? I understood us to be forbidden from re-trying proposals, which I don't know must be interpreted as forbidding sending one through again amended but it might."

Permalink

"I would expect that making adjustments to past proposals having seen how they work in practice is permitted. The archmage's justification for not allowing repeated votes was that it wasted time, but the fact we can amend in the future allows us to move more quickly."

Permalink

"I understand the wording of the slander proposal to have been modified on the floor, and likewise understand further amendments to have been proposed and voted on unsuccessfully, though in both cases such amendments were made before a failed vote."

Permalink

"There is a Remark by the President which is Vague and I [hope|had hoped] to Address this among other Procedures in the Committee on Forms[.|but now I am Unsure where and when it will be Addressed.] It seems clear that Inability to Amend would lead Rapidly into Contradictory, Nonsensical Law, however."

(note: resolve these ambiguities when the committee on forms thing is resolved!)

Permalink

"Let's presume for now we are empowered to amend things, and I won't bring it to the floor if that turns out to be false."

Permalink

"I think we may wish to specify the time that is called 'limited' or 'reasonable'. Shall we put it at seven days?" 

Permalink

"I don't want to bind investigators' hands too much in a case like the riots, where thousands of crimes were committed and they are working long hours to get through all of them."

Permalink

"As I understand the proposal, this would only require the investigators to charge them for crimes within seven days, not to have completed their investigations or hold the trial. I imagine the majority of people detained for participation in the riots have already been charged, even if only a few have been tried. If I am mistaken on that point, then I hope someone else will name a more reasonable time."

Permalink

To Luisa: "Local defense is not normally provided for via long-term conscription, though I suppose it's sometimes necessary to direct the local peasantry to defend against an immediate attack. This does not seem very much like detention to me, but I admit I am not completely certain."

Permalink

"Thank you, Archduke; it is a Military Matter rather than the Process of her Majesty's Justice and is not Intended to be Detention herein. For the purposes of such did I say 'Lawful Forms', and another Law to be drafted at a later Time may yet hang itself here as a Hat hangs on a Wooden Hat-Rack, permitting what is Necessary throughout."

"Duke Fraga, you are correct as I understand the Matter; to Charge is much less Ascertainment than to Try on Charges, and it is I believe the Time of Judges that is in most Short Supply."

Permalink

"Then I would support the modification to add a seven day limit for charges, if it is the will of this committee."

Permalink

"Can you re-read the new version of the proposal, after the changes?"

Permalink

"It now Reads:"

1) Any Person Duly and Lawfully Charged with the Investigation of Crimes and the Enforcement of Law has the power to Detain, for a Limited Time, any free Subject of her Majesty solely for the Purpose of the Investigation of a Specific Crime, or multiple Specific Crimes.

1.a) Such Detention may continue only while such Crimes are Duly and Lawfully Investigated, unless the Detained be then Charged in which case it may continue until Trial, unless the Detained be then Sentenced to Imprisonment in which case it may continue for the Term of Imprisonment.

1.b) If such Detention has continued past a Reasonable Time for Investigation or Trial, and past any Sentence if such was made, the Crown shall Grant a Petition for the Release of the Detained.

2) Any Person Duly and Lawfully Charged with the Investigation of Crimes and the Enforcement of Law has the power to Detain, for a Limited Time, any free subject of her Majesty solely for the purpose of Compelling Testimony in connection with the Investigation of a Specific Crime, or multiple such Specific Crimes.

2.a) Such Detention may continue only while such Crimes are Duly and Lawfully Investigated, unless those Suspected of such Crimes be then Charged in which case it may continue until Trial.

2.b) Such Detention is not the Primary Means of Compelling Testimony, but rather is to be used when the Officers of the Law suspect the Witness may fail to Appear when Duly Summoned.

2.c) If such Detention has continued past a Reasonable Time for Investigation or Trial the Crown shall Grant a Petition for the Release of the Detained.

3) A Reasonable Time for Investigation shall be Seven Days; for Trial until the Date Fixed for Trial; and for Sentence of Imprisonment until the Expiration of said Sentence.

4) Should any Detention under this Law entail the Transportation of a Subject over a Great Distance, particularly if Teleported, the Crown shall upon their Release provide at its expense their Safe Return to the Location where they were Originally Detained.

5) Except under these Provisions the Crown and those Carrying Out her Majesty's Justice shall not Detain free subjects of her Majesty.

6, alternative 1) For the Avoidance of Doubt, the Lawful Forms of Conscription and the Lawful Fulfillment of Obligations of Taxation by the Corvée are not forms of Detention under this Law.

6, alternative 2) For the Avoidance of Doubt, the Lawful Forms of Conscription or the Corvée as Authorized by a Decree of the Queen or the Convention, on the terms given in that Authorization, are not forms of Detention under this Law.

"I note the following:"

"That the last Clause has two Drafts, and I would Choose that Alternative which is Agreeable to Archduke Narikopolus if none have additional Suggestions;"

"that perhaps a Reasonable Time for Trial Dates might be useful, though I hesitate to set one considering the Demands on the Time of Judges;"

"that the Second Draft of the last Clause says 'a Decree of the Queen or the Convention', and I believe it to be Decrees of the Queen which have force, and that she Enacts and Promulgates them as we Pass them."

Permalink

He's really coming to dislike writing laws. Oh well. 

"I expect either alternative will work. The first seems to me to give more latitude for common sense, if someone does claim that another established but not formally decreed practice is technically a form of conscription, but perhaps the latter will give greater confidence in the law."

Permalink

"For people who do not through their occupation have the power of arrest, conscription, or corvée, is this in any way not identical to a one-line law forbidding them to detain free subjects? I think laws being lengthier for people who do have those powers is fine, but the amount of helplessness I've seen about the law even when it was extremely short was troubling."

Total: 156
Posts Per Page: