"Is it possible that the Queen is replacing discretion in the findings of each trial partially with discretion in which trials to conduct at all?"

"My understanding is that this committee is charged with establishing procedures for how the judicial system in Cheliax ought to function, and not with directing the courts as regards any specific cases. Though I admit that many of the speakers on the floor seemed to have other understandings, so I may be incorrect."

"Well understood, Delegate Nerius."

"While there are many impressions on the floor I think certainly the more general approach is more principled. If there is an error in any specific trial it is likely a product of some systematic error. So instead of saying specifically, 'try the people who rebelled against the government in this particular case on treason charges', we should investigate the process which produced the current result, and make different recommendations. In a way, directing the courts just to address the specific error is missing the opportunity to correct the processes that generated that error."

"Well said. If the underlying principle is that we are to rely on prosecutorial discretion, I think that will not serve the cause of reliability of justice. The previous rule was arbitrarily evil; it will be difficult to convince the people of Cheliax that the new rule is arbitrarily good. Let it be predictable; I do not think the bettors in Valia's case were conflicted because of uncertainties of fact, and instead because of uncertainties of law, which seems like a clear failure."

The bettors on Valia Wain's trial are making a strong argument that civilized countries should outlaw gambling on the grounds that it preys on the slow-witted for little benefit, but Marit has enough political sense not to say that unless he's asked directly.

"I note that the Bettors made among others many Sizable Bets regarding the use of Malediction or Lions. This is perhaps an Uncertainty of Law, I grant."

"Perhaps this committee should draft rules around betting on trials. It seems an uncivilized custom, though I agree that it is useful as a warning sign and an indication that how the law will be judged is unpredictable to the people subject to that law."

Imran is of the opinion the bettors were confused because they still thought they lived in Cheliax, and from his experience in Osirion a financial stake in becoming less confused will help with this. "With no eyes, you cannot see trouble, and so you will believe there is none for longer. If the people of Cheliax believe that convicts will be torn apart by lions, what good does forbidding them to show that do? All it does is say that we cannot know they are in confusion."

He nods at Imran's point. "It is challenging enough to get information from the people directly; we may as well make use of what indirect means there are."

"I take your point, but don't you fear that some might encourage confusion, if they stand to profit off it?"

Sounds good to him.

"The Church of Abadar encourages betting on everything in Osirion, and there have been no great problems," he notices, "though you would want to speak to one of their priests to know more."

"I am not an Abadaran, but I am concerned that the current state of betting on the courts essentially allows for men to enrich themselves by preying on their slow-witted neighbors, to little public benefit."

"It may well do so. But it's quite painful enough to keep the people of Cheliax from theft and violent crime, and I am not sure we do them any great favors by outlawing behavior which many from civilized countries take no issue with."

"Consider; what then are the Causes leading to a Confused Bet regarding Lions, enriching some Bookmaker? The first is that they are Accustomed to a Government making use of Bloodsport in its Purported Justice; this we cannot Remedy more than has already been Done by said Government's Toppling. The second is that they expect Bloodsport used as a Sentence to Remain within the Available Discretion of the Court because they have not been Told Otherwise. As they come to see that a Judge is charged with Judging upon Law, which Law they have themselves Read, and as Bloodsport continues in Disuse, this will Fade; however they may Earlier be Told Otherwise; this we may do.

"I am not familiar with Abadar's teachings as regards Betting, but surely whatever He sees in it is not Lost with a Greater Body of Common Knowledge."

"The people of Cheliax have in my experience so far seemed reluctant to produce their true beliefs on anything except under the most exceptional and indirect circumstances. That one of these circumstances is betting that convicts will be devoured by lions is strange and unfortunate but if, as Ser Elkader suggests, it really is a way to elicit such statements, I would be reluctant to discard it without first replacing it." During assizes he sometimes resorted to asking people who wouldn't take his oath of anonymity to talk to his horse, who was more obviously unable to name them as accusers than he. She couldn't name names but could point him at people to question.

"The purpose of the gambling is to build the common knowledge; its spread is certainly to his benefit."

The thing about Lastwall and Osirion both, he doesn't say, is that they make sense. Everything you do is against the background of elaborate calculations of efficiency, and you can add your knowledge to that but it's there. It is the machinery of state, eternally ticking; plans and cost/benefit estimates and problem reports on the one side, betting odds on the other. The machinery still ticks.

Cheliax, meanwhile, wants to be Hell and is the Abyss.

Bellumar would also be in favor of bringing back convicts being devoured by lions but with this committee full of paladins the route to that is to get their man as Lord Mayor and then give him broad emergency powers. He will not attempt to argue for it here. 

"So, on the matter of whether judges are geased unwisely, we will endeavor to learn the details of the geas. The other matter I wanted to bring before this committee is regarding the many people detained by the crown for investigation after the riots. This is all to the good and I would not dream of impairing the crown in it. In fact they should do more of it. But the people fear arbitrary detention; that is, not just that they will be arrested if they are suspected of a crime, but that they will be arrested any time anyone feels like it. And so I had a proposal:"

Any free subject of Her Majesty may be detained at any time for the purpose of investigating a crime, and must cooperate with this detention. No free subject of Her Majesty shall be detained except on suspicion of a crime, and only while that suspicion is duly investigated. Nothing in this bill shall prohibit the conscription of men for the purposes of the army, nor the payment of taxes in the form of labor.

In the event that subjects are transported great distances in the course of their detention, and particularly if they are Teleported, the crown on releasing them must offer them the means for a safe return to the location they were detained from.

"I think I cannot support this proposal without time to think about whether it is good to forbid compelled witness testimony."

Hmm. He thinks Paladin Jomet has a point and will nod along.

"Is that not testimony for the purpose of investigating a crime, Chosen?"

Sensible in spirit, needs some serious amendment to be workable.

Proposing any amendment is slander.

"Perhaps it's an unclear wording issue. A witness who is not themselves a suspect could be detained for the investigation of a crime but not on suspicion of it."

"We can adjust the wording appropriately."

Any free subject of Her Majesty may be detained at any time for the purpose of investigating a crime, and must cooperate with this detention. No free subject of Her Majesty shall be detained except for the purpose of investigating a crime, and only while that crime is duly investigated or while their testimony as to a possible crime is required. Nothing in this bill shall prohibit the conscription of men for the purposes of the army, nor the payment of taxes in the form of labor.

In the event that subjects are transported great distances in the course of their detention, and particularly if they are Teleported, the crown on releasing them must offer them the means for a safe return to the location they were detained from.