"I don't think we want her executed, though. She can legitimately plead stupidity, which is a pretty good legal defense. A last-minute compromise where we send her off to Lastwall for the basic training in the faith of Iomedae she never received - that is, sentence her to be exiled to serve at the Worldwound until it is finally dealt with, allowing of course for a brief stop in training from our allies in Lastwall - and get in exchange a first-circle cleric from Lastwall who has none of Valia Wain's political beliefs but can channel just as often as she could, will be a much better deal for all parties."

For a moment he is actually more confused than angry. He really thought they'd just said they were in favor of punishing her.

" - you would let her go?"

"I'd limit myself to exiling her from her home forever if we get a first-circle cleric of Iomedae who isn't actively counterproductive out of it. It's a waste to kill someone who can be useful on another front instead of redeploying her there. If we need to whip her bloody first so everyone feels like she's punished, I've no objections. But what she's guilty of isn't cruelty, it's sheer overwhelming stupidity, and that is sometimes curable. If it wasn't Iomedae would have dropped her and we'd have a simpler problem."

"Service at the wound is nothing! We ask it of people who stand accused of nothing, constantly! Were she a member of the church, she would be there already! You cannot reassign her and claim you've said anything but that you are embarrassed to find no fault with anything she did!"

He is still confused, actually, but only dimly aware of it. He heard 'until it is finally dealt with', and thought of Valia's training, and 'exiling her from her home forever', and is not sure whether these are the same or different suggestions. He isn't thinking about how to reconcile these. He's thinking about three cold, lonely, miserable years at the worldwound, missing his wife and children for what was ostensibly not a punishment at all, and a murderer getting the same.

"I think that she caused a large number of deaths through extraordinary stupidity caused by being very young and growing up somewhere terrible. I don't think we should execute people for extraordinary stupidity; I do think we should punish them. I think that if we sentence her to exile at the Worldwound for life, and she spends the first two years training in Lastwall and fifteen years guarding the Wound and then Lastwall declares that the demons are dealt with and Her Majesty issues a general pardon to everyone sent to the Worldwound - she will stop causing problems for us forever, and also a significant number of people on the Wound who would have died will live because they have access to more channels. And I think no one who watched her be exiled will say 'well, really, saying what she said is fine,' though I'd be pleased to hear more suggestions for how to make her more obviously punished - I may be underestimating the cruelty Asmodeanism has accustomed the people of Cheliax to expecting from their state; I'd assumed that most people would assume that the exile was a polite face-saving excuse and she was in fact being executed."

"There are - a few different things at play here, yes? Whether Valia Wain has suffered as much as she deserves, which won't be true until her family has all been murdered in front of her. Which, to be fair, did happen, I think, so we can hardly do it again.

 Then there's whether it is apparent to the idiots of Westcrown that if they try what she tried they will with certainty and immediacy regret it, and I don't know if exile's sufficient to achieve that with Westcrown's current population but it's a - question of pageantry, with little to do with either what she deserves or what her victims do. 

And then there is - the matter, Count, you spoke of earlier. When you said that you would rather burn the country to the ground than share it with men who did the things that were done last night and got away with it and did not suffer for it and never will."

"We are not Calistrians here. There is no amount of suffering on the part of Valia Wain which can make right what happened last night. Suffering cannot right wrongs, it can only make new ones. In imposing a sentence for a crime, we should be mindful of preventing further crime, of deterring other potential criminals, of teaching the guilty party that their acts are unacceptable, of restitution to the victims, and of giving the guilty a chance to earn redemption before the Judge. But we ought to give no mind to vengeance, or to whether the guilty party has suffered 'enough' or 'as much as they deserve'.

In a case such as this, where the crime was an act of folly rather than malice, and where the perpetrator has already realized that it was an error - the principle considerations are restitution to the victims and prevention of further error. For the families of the dead, there's little restitution that can be extracted from Valia Wain. Some resurrections are being supplied by the archmages, but if you took everything Valia owns and sold it it would not allow you to buy a single one more. Exile is sufficient to prevent further harm. Anything beyond that is just an indulgence to the same vengeful bloodlust that drove last night's riots."

"Indeed. My response to the duchess is that I don't want them to suffer for it, I want them to learn that they cannot and should not do that. And I believe both that Valia Wain has only tertiary responsibility after the pamphleteer who edited her words and the men who did the killing, and also I think that Valia Wain has learned she cannot and should not do that. That lesson being delivered, pain is superfluous."

"It's not about vengeance, it's - "

- no, he's angrily arguing morality with a paladin who possibly doesn't actually despise him yet, and with a handful of other southern nobles, who feel every bit as incomprehensible and dangerous as the last set, right now. There's absolutely no way this can improve anything. And the half-formed argument itself is ridiculous, and would be ridiculous in any company. The thing it is about is knowing that anyone can ever be safe, anywhere, which is a ridiculous thing to demand via appeal to morality. 

" - I apologize. I am poor company tonight. Thank you for your hospitality, Duchess, it is much appreciated. Please excuse me, I don't wish to ruin your evening."

He'll wait - a second, at least, for her to acknowledge that, but after that he really has to get out of this room.

"I wanted to apologize to you, actually, Count-Regent. You should have been here last night. I should have invited you immediately after the speech. We can speak all night of Valia Wain's culpable stupidity, but - many people with fewer excuses for ignorance were just as stupid, in not seeing where this would lead. You can go, of course, if you want, but the answer I meant to give to Count Ardiaca and to Lord Cansellarion is that I think they are speaking out of theology textbooks, and have not actually had their families murdered, and don't actually understand what the difficult part is."

" - thank you. I believe you will say it better than I, tonight," he says, tightly but sincerely, and then does leave.

"Please excuse me also." Antonio stands and follows Llei.

"I have likewise had a long day. May tomorrow be an improvement." He doesn't look at Joan-Pau at all.

Joan-Pau will murmur agreement with Carlota as Llei leaves, giving him a bow of apology as he does.

And Xavier will also join in agreement with Carlota.

He will nod, in acknowledgement, as politely as he can while maintaining firm intent to get out of the room before he says anything else.

Narikopolus of course is perfectly composed, hasn't left,  and has evinced no opinions at all. She's getting appreciation for how the man survived the Thrunes.

"I do, actually, understand what the difficult part is and how difficult it can be. I have had people I loved tortured, maledicted, and murdered. And after many years, when I finally defeated the woman who did this - I know the temptation. To hurt the person who has hurt you, to make them viscerally understand what they put you through, to - 

Death was the only option, really, death and a hasten judgment and destroying the body to prevent a raise. But I could have chosen a slow death, instead of a swift sword-blow to the neck. I could have, I was tempted to, it would have felt right, but it would have been wrong."

Joan-Pau has never actually felt the desire to torture someone to death and so has nothing to say about this other than a polite nod of acknowledgement.

"I don't think we distressed our guests with the proposal to kill Wain swiftly but with the proposal not to kill her. For my own part - and I make no claim to possess a fraction of the virtue of Lord Cansellarion, nor even to have consistently aspired to it - I have not struggled with the desire to hurt my enemies nearly as much as with the total impossibility of contemplating conceding peace to them. 

But, for those who find it easier to live in a world where our enemies suffer, I've found it a much easier mental adaptation to remind myself that they do, because this world isn't any easier for them, than they they shouldn't, even though both are true. Valia Wain shouldn't suffer, and also she has and will."

Honestly, he's not especially torn up about things. Glad that he sent his sister and her grandchildren to Menador when he took her house over, but not otherwise especially upset.

"Duchess, you spoke earlier about your plan to prevent reckless publications. When the convention reconvenes, I have - pieces of something I might like to say, about what happened, that may be turned to this purpose. About the people who were killed, including Marit and Arn. In particular - Llei has a daughter, who was staying at the house. I understand that she'll be fine. Last night, shortly before the attack, she spoke with Marit and Arn about her enthusiasm for volunteering at Crusader's Fort, if it might free up a soldier from Lastwall to come here and help the people of Cheliax. I understand that an hour later, she gave her life in direct defense of the servants in the cellar, after members of the mob got past us."

"It - is easy, I think, to feel that a man should die, if the only facts one knows about him are that he is a noble who carries the blood of a devil, and is currently judged evil. And these can be true facts, and not lies in themselves. But they paint a different picture than one of a man who raised such a daughter. Their being true does not mean that they cannot be turned to leave men with less understanding of a situation than they started with. Perhaps this can serve to lend some small support the idea that even true things can be so irresponsible to say that one should limit the ways in which they are said. And I would like to say something, when the the man has been called out in public and had nothing said in his defense. But - I am not much of a politician, and my staff is dead. I don't want to make a speech without first getting advice about what will make the current situation better or worse."

By this description the daughter is a sterling specimen of Chelish womanhood in spite of being a tiefling. "I'd expect that to work very well," Xavier says. "Presenting a hero will rouse the spirits of the people and make them respect the mob's victims. Are the servants she protected local from Westcrown, or Menadorians?"

"Westcrown, I hired them when I arrived."

He nods. He doubts Narikopolus needed the relevance of this fact pointed out even that explicitly, but he thought the costs of doing so were low.

"I think it's the foundation of an excellent speech, and am happy to assist if I can."