"So uh, second day after this, I'm hiding in a rope trick during the time window I was told to expect a scry, I get the scry, I exit the rope trick as ordered so I can get teleported to, I give a signal as I exit (as planned so the Eagle Knights know to prebuff for the ambush).  Uh, they're on top of the wizard in less than a round, he teleported with two reinforcements, one of those reinforcements decides to defect right then and there and helps stab the wizard, so together they manage to take down, I mean kill, the wizard before he can get off a spell, and they kill inquisitor who was with them as well."

"As it turns out, as we hear from the defector, uh his name is Mateo, the wizard probably planned to maledict me, and maybe Mateo as well if he didn't legibly learn from the example that was going to be made of me.  A few hours later, as we disarm the traps on his bag of holding and look through it, sure enough, he had two scrolls of malediction.  So... yeah."

"I guess we made the right call?  But I feel bad because he was helping to fight Asmodeus, and he did help my group out all those years with supply drops and probably intelligence and coordination behind the scenes."

He has been told several times over this session that his feelings are actually buried Good impulses, so he'll share them even if it feels kind of dumb feeling bad for a guy that was going to maledict him.

"It makes sense that you would have complicated feelings about that. I think that your feelings are — a reflection of something real and important. It would have been better if there had been another way, if you and Mateo could have renounced your affiliation with the Baphomet cult without killing the wizard and the inquisitor, for the sake of the fight against Asmodeus but also for their own sake. I expect that there wasn't an alternative option that you could have reasonably expected to work — while there are circumstances under which it would have been better to inform them that you were leaving, it sounds like you had good reason to believe that that would not improve the situation."

Presumably if you try to negotiate with a Baphomet cultist on the condition that they not use information derived from the negotiation against you, they agree and then use it against you anyways. This is among the many ways in which being a cultist of a Chaotic Evil god is kind of hitting yourself in the foot with a hoe.

"It isn't Evil to defend yourself against a Baphomite who intends to attack, Maledict, and kill you, including by ambush. It is possible that it would have been Evil if he'd actually been perfectly willing to let you leave, even if the situation had otherwise appeared similar, though it would have been a mitigating factor that you did have genuine reason to believe he was attacking you. It's good that you and your group let Mateo live; in principle it could have been an improvement to have a clear policy surrounding the circumstances under which you would have accepted a surrender from the others, but in practice it seems like this would have been difficult to communicate or to safely enforce. But even though it wasn't Evil to defend yourself, it is not unusual to feel guilty about killing someone, even in self-defense. Even if you had no other reasonable choice I think it is an impulse towards the Good that you are concerned on his behalf — that's not to say that it would be Evil not to feel troubled, to be clear.

There's... a perspective someone might have, if they were very new to Iomedaean reasoning, that because he was fighting against Asmodeus, and presumably reasonably skilled at doing so, it would therefore have been better to let him kill and Maledict you. But that's a policy where — if it were widely adopted, and so cultists of Baphomet could reasonably expect that those opposed to Asmodeus would allow themselves to be Maledicted to avoid hindering the fight, they would attempt to attack and Maledict people much more frequently, such that this policy would not actually improve things overall.

Does that all make sense to you?"

Justice is maybe hardcore enough to let herself get Maledicted if it helps to fight Asmodeus more, but he certainly isn't!

"That all makes sense.  Um, not a criticism or anything, but I'm somewhat surprised by how much of this advice is about listening to my feelings?  Like if I were to have guessed yesterday about Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Good I would have thought Lawful Good leaned on feelings a lot less?"

Short pause. "When people call something an 'impulse towards Goodness' that usually means something along the lines of — that it is a feeling that points towards an underlying Good principle, even if listening to that feeling wouldn't necessarily lead to Good in every specific case. Feeling uncomfortable with torture is a reflection of the principle that it is better for people not to suffer if it can reasonably be avoided. That doesn't mean that you should make every decision just by listening to your feelings, but I do think Cheliax worked quite hard to get people to suppress or ignore those feelings, because otherwise it couldn't have survived, any more than it could have survived if everyone sat down and reasoned through the question of whether they should serve Hell." 

Pause. "I do expect that, in the ordinary parts of most people's lives, most things that feel to their conscience like awful wrongs will in fact be bad. That isn't always true — much of the Church's theology is focused on how to handle times of war, which is both a situation in which many people will convince themselves that totally unnecessary Evils are acceptable and a situation where the natural instinct most people have against killing other people can be counterproductive — but it's true most of the time for most people. If something feels uncomfortable, but to a lesser degree, there's generally some aspect of the situation that's non-ideal, but depending on the details it might be too costly to be worth avoiding. Does that make sense?"

So if Cheliax invades, just kill whoever the Church says its okay to kill, yeah, sure, he totally believes that.  ...he could actually ask a more cautious version of that gut reaction.

"That makes sense.  Uh... does refusing to fight because of your natural instinct not to kill people cost any Goodness?"

"—When you say 'cost any Goodness', do you mean in the sense of 'being an Evil thing to do,' or in the sense of 'being less Good than the most Good thing to do'?"

"I'm not really sure?  Like would the judge use it as a reason to keep me out of Elysium or Nirvana?"

"The short answer, which is a bit of a simplification, is no, she generally wouldn't. There's some nuance to this, so I'm also going to give you a longer answer with a few parts to it, but if you just want to know whether you can have Nirvana or Elysium if you never kill anyone again — yes."

Long pause. "The first thing to keep in mind is that at your final judgment, the gods don't only see your actions, they also see what is in your heart. —The fact that they do not exclusively look at actions has been confirmed by Commune on multiple occasions, to different gods, with different phrasings, though the Judge and her servants are not human and do not necessarily care about every nuance of motivation that a human would. But they can tell the difference between refusing to fight someone who is causing great harm because of your instinct not to kill, and refusing to fight because you approve of what they're doing, or because you think it will keep you safer.

In general, a person who lives a completely ordinary life in every respect will not make Elysium or Nirvana, you do need to actually do Good for that, but there are many ways to do Good without killing anyone. There is a Shelynite religious order that swears never to take a person's life, even in self-defense, and the general consensus among theologians is that this is foolish but not Evil; Shelyn has on rare occasions chosen paladins from this order. Lastwall conscripts nearly all its young men, but my colleagues from Lastwall tell me that it allows them to refuse on grounds of conscience, in which case they spend their term building roads and so on. With that being said, there are situations where the most Good thing to do involves killing someone, or fighting them in a way that puts their life at risk — that doesn't mean it will damn you to refuse, but whatever you do instead might count less in your favor."

(It's usually kind of dishonorable for a man to be unwilling to ever fight or kill people, but it does seem like a reasonable choice, rather than an indication of cowardice, for a repentant Baphomet cultist who has participated in an enormous amount of extrajudicial violence to decide to err in the direction of never doing that again.)

"The main cases where I would expect it to damage someone's Goodness to be unwilling to kill someone are situations where they have taken on a responsibility that requires them to fight. If brigands demand that a father hand over his children to them, and he is unwilling to fight in their defense, I expect that would weigh on his soul. If you decided to use your wizardry to make a living as an adventurer, and your companions were relying on you to fight by their side, refusing to do so could weigh on your soul. If it's important to you not to have to kill anyone, you should avoid taking on responsibilities like that.

...There are also some additional considerations for people who, like you, are trying to make up for Evils in their past, but those are complicated enough that I think it will be easier to explain separately. Did you have any questions about what I've already said?"

"I... think that all makes sense?  I can avoid willingly taking on a commitment which would require violence or killing.  I don't know what the situation with conscription is in Andoran.  And, um, I'm thinking about whether a hard commitment to nonviolence would make sense?  Either informally or a very carefully worded oath, like if that would make it more understandable to Lawful people what I consider myself committed to?  Even though I'm currently chaotic...  Not right now, I mean after some time carefully considering it and getting spiritual council on it.  Uh, I don't know if you should cover your additional considerations before or after addressing that idea."

He can avoid having kids, no problem.  And third circle is plenty high enough for him, so no need for adventuring.  And if it is just his own life at stake, well, dying while refusing to use violence against his assailant seems like a fast track to get clear of Evil?  He should double check that assumption.

"Andoran also permits people to refuse military service on grounds of conscience, as part of much broader and more haphazard protections for breaking the law on such grounds. I expect that even in very extreme circumstances it would be possible for you to be assigned to support casting, rather than anything that would require you to personally carry out violence.

I think that whether a broader commitment to non-violence makes sense depends on what you're hoping to achieve by it. I think it could potentially be useful if you expect that you would otherwise be tempted to Evil violent acts and that making this commitment would help you to resist the temptation, or if you want to have something to point to in case others try to persuade you to commit such acts. I expect it to be less useful for persuading people that you genuinely won't commit violence in the future, since, as you say, you're Chaotic, though of course that doesn't make it meaningless, it just means that people might not feel like they can rely on you holding to it. If you're mainly hoping it will count in your favor at your final judgment, that — ties into the more complicated point I mentioned. Whatever your motivation, it's definitely a good idea to think it over carefully first, and potentially to try a time-limited version of the commitment first before swearing to uphold it for the rest of your life."

She pauses to give him the chance to clarify if he wants to.

Time limited oaths!  He hadn’t thought about the concept, but it makes sense.  It is good he is consulting an expert on oaths!

“Hmm… I think I could avoid clearly and obviously Evil violence without any sort of oath, it’s more ambiguous cases of violence I would want something, somewhat for myself and somewhat for explaining to others.”

And now he is really curious what the more complicated point she has is.

"That makes sense as something to want, and it does seem like the sort of thing that a thoughtful commitment could help with."

Pause.

"One way that the situation of people who have done grave Evils is different from people who haven't is that it isn't sufficient to live a completely ordinary life, never trying particularly hard to help anyone or do Good, if you want to avoid the Evil afterlives. Generally speaking, there are two main possibilities for making up for Evils in your past — to be clear, you don't have to choose one or the other, it's entirely possible to do both.

The first is to simply do enough Good to compensate for the Evil you've done. This is — not the only thing your alignment aura is measuring, but one of the main ones. It's compatible with a commitment to non-violence, but in some situations a commitment like that could make it slower; I wouldn't recommend that you, specifically, enlist at the Worldwound regardless, but it would likely also rule out other forms of adventuring.

The fundamental core of the other possibility is the idea that no matter how serious the Evils you've done are, it is possible to change thoroughly enough that they will not weigh against your soul. My colleagues in the Church of Sarenrae tell me that they have consulted her about their understanding of the process, and that she has indicated that it is — not perfectly accurate, but a close enough understanding to work from — to say that if someone feels the full weight of their misdeeds and truly regrets what they have done, and has tried insofar as they can to undo the harm they caused, and has so thoroughly rejected what they did that they would no longer repeat it in similar circumstances, then those misdeeds will not weigh against them at their final judgment. I expect that making and following through with a commitment to non-violence could potentially be helpful for the last part, if you are doing so out of sincere desire to change."

He thinks through this part really carefully.  Several implications stand out.  One is that if he does achieve true regret (or whatever) it may not show in his alignment right away, if at all.  A second that there is something of a tradeoff between risky high stakes adventuring to do good and non-violence… he was planning on avoiding high stakes adventuring anyway, at least until he was (readably) Chaotic Neutral so that doesn’t seem like too big of a drawback.  …He should probably admit that motive upfront, at least while he has confidentiality guaranteed.  A third is that, on the ‘compensate for Evil’ path… it might be really long one.

“To be honest, my initial plan was to avoid risky adventuring until I at least read Chaotic Neutral.  I mean, it might be a bit cowardly…”

Justice wouldn’t be scared of risking an eternity in the Abyss if it meant saving some other people along the way.  (At least that’s the impression he’s gotten from the extent she is undaunted by Maledictions.)  He doesn’t want to be that fearless because he doesn’t want to end up in the Abyss (or Hell), but he can certainly abstractly admire the attitude.

“I figured I can make decent money as a third circle wizard (even not adventuring per se) and donate it.  Or I could directly donate spells to worthy causes.  And then pick causes for some mix of maximizing Goodness and cultivating an attitude of true regret and making up for my past harms.”

But now that he’s thinking of Justice…

“Although if there was some adventuring I expected to be particularly uniquely advantaged in, uh… I guess I would risk it?”

He can’t really see himself saying no if Justice wanted his help with something only he could help with.  (Or at least something he was strongly advantaged in helping with.)

"Donating money or spells to Good causes is a perfectly reasonable way to do Good in the world and avoid damnation, it just isn't necessarily always the best way. —In some cases it is, adventurers do often have a tendency to take risks even if it doesn't serve the cause of Good." There's the sound of a pen scratching against paper for a few moments. "In terms of your personal self-interest, I don't expect it to be necessary for you to risk your life in order to make Chaotic Neutral. With that being said, if you want to preserve the option to take up adventuring, I would advise against swearing oaths incompatible with that."

"Right, of course.  Uh, hmm... I'll think about it.  Is there a specific way to request you again or schedule a time or something after I've thought more about it?  Oh, and do you know who I should go to with information about Cheliax and the Baphomet cult outside of confession... I guess I can check with the Eagle Knight adventurers I was with, but if anyone in the Church of Iomedae wants the information I have also?  You know, like their operations and organization and how Cheliax responded and stuff."

Also he thinks the Church of Iomedae might be more organized with making use of his information, but several of his assumptions about Chaos and Law have been wrong so far.  Still it can't hurt to share information.

"We have a schedule for spiritual counseling, or you can arrange a meeting with me at a specific time by talking to Raniero in the office at the end of the hallway. He can also schedule a meeting with a Church representative to discuss that information."

She slides a piece of paper with the spiritual counselling schedule under the divider.

“Thank you.  You’ve given me a lot to think about and addressed my biggest concerns.  I’ll take a look at the schedules for follow-ups.”

Just selling spells actually leaves you with a lot of free time!

(He has kind of forgotten his original demand for cited research and evidence with everything else to think about.)

"Righteous gods watch over you."

Justice and Shakti are waiting in the lobby! Shakti is inspecting the architecture; Justice is talking to one of the lay-priests. 

"—don't even need to be third circle, they can do it at first — oh! Hi Fernando!"

"Oh hello Justice, Shakti." 

He focuses on Justice.

"I was actually just thinking about meeting up with you, I just got done with a first session of spiritual counseling and I have a lot to think about and I had a few ideas I thought I should get your input on."

He actually could have used some more time to think things over before meeting Justice, but isn't like he going to be punished or anything for not having fully worked out everything.

She nods. "Do you want to talk about it while we walk over to meet up with the others, or did you want to keep it more private than that?"

“I guess most of it is kind of private?”

He did literally just go to the trouble of getting confidential counseling.

"In that case we can swing by my flat, does that work for you? It's a little out of our way, but not that far, and it should be private enough. —My girlfriend might be home but she'll give us privacy if I ask."

“That’ll work.  I’m fine with your team knowing or hearing, I just don’t want to be heard in public.”