"...And it would also be wrong for the Queen to have him Maledicted, no matter what he'd done, even if it were really good for deterrence, because there's some things you shouldn't do to anyone and Malediction is one of them."

"That's also right."

"And... uhhhhhh... let's say it turned out that actually he'd been Dominated by an Evil wizard, and it wasn't his fault at all, and when the Queen sent people to take him in the wizard came back and dominated him into attacking them in front of everyone, so people thought he was a murderer even though he wasn't. I think in that case it'd be wrong to execute him for it, even though it'd be really bad for deterrence to just let him go, everyone would assume the Queen was just lying. Partly because killing him wouldn't do anything to protect people, the wizard could just Dominate someone else, but mostly because... it matters if he actually did it? ...Uh, usually I'd say that as 'people who murder innocent people deserve to die, innocent people don't' but I get the sense that you don't like that way of saying it."

"I don't like that statement. I don't know for sure yet if it's actually just an objectionable way of saying a thing I otherwise like fine. But I agree in this example too."

"I was pretty sure you wouldn't but I don't really understand why. Would you rather I try saying the same thing in more ways, or keep going with examples?"

"My present guess is examples are more likely to help."

"Okay, uhh... for crimes that are way less bad then murder, people mostly shouldn't be executed unless there's something weird about the circumstances? Like, if someone stole a few silver off me while I was buying dinner, I wouldn't want them executed for it."

"And... what would you want to happen instead."

"... I'm not sure, I didn't specifically think about it until just now. Back home they mostly maimed people for theft but I think back home people mostly only reported theft if it was, like, big theft, there was always a risk that going to the government about something would come back to bite you. And a few silver might be a lot for some people but it's not a lot for me right now, since the stipend's so big... but they might not have known it wouldn't be a big deal..."

"Let us imagine that it was discovered by means of someone trying it that theft could be deterred by... collecting a lock of the perpetrator's hair and keeping it on file for scrying later, let's imagine that this just worked all by itself because the thieves realized they'd be caught if they reoffended. Would you object to this being the only sentence ever issued for theft, if that were a discovery someone made?"

"...yes. ......And that wouldn't even totally work for deterrence even if every thief went along with it, it wouldn't do anything to stop the first time someone steals. But I'd object even apart from that."

"We can suppose that it works as well or better than anything else anyone has tried for the purposes of this example. Why would you object even apart from that?"

Victòria looks so confused. "...it's wrong to just... let people get away with hurting each other for no reason."

"Sometimes people imagine inventing the opposite of Malediction, 'Benediction', sending someone straight to Nirvana. Would you object to this spell?"

"...I think it would depend."

"Suppose it were offered the same way as the Final Blade and sold the way Archmage Naima's reincarnations are."

"...It would still depend."

She swallows. "Lluïsa's Evil. But she's still a decent person, she saved Valia, I really don't want her to go to Hell. And probably there's lots of people like that that I just don't know about, because they're not strong enough to show up as Evil.

But — I'd be pretty upset if Delegate Ibarra, or the nobleman I told you about earlier, or people like them, got to just — go be happy little magpies, flying around telling all their magpie friends how proud they are of all the innocent people they killed. And if I somehow ended up in Nirvana, there's people where — I don't think I could ever be okay, if they were just — running around the same afterlife, getting to be safe and free and happy like they were actually decent people, and everyone wanted me to just pretend like what they did was alright. Like it didn't matter what they'd done to me or anyone else.

And — I'm not saying I want them to burn in Hell for a thousand years. A thousand years is a really long time, even for people like that, and — I mean, I don't want Asmodeus to get more devils. But — I'd be upset if the thing that happened to them instead was that they got to just — go off to Nirvana and be happy and free and never, ever face justice."

And she mostly hasn't been thinking about it, but—

"—I know this is a way that I'm — different from the azata I talked to. But I did ask it, and it said — Elysium's a free plane, there's plenty of people who'd be bothered by that sort of thing — not that specific example, obviously, but similar ones—" It had felt very important at the time, that Elysium hadn't just decided to keep out all the people like her to make space for people like Delegate Ibarra.

"Okay. I think this is - very significant, it's a way that the human conscience behaves when the thing it wants really is justice. You're picking up on a real difference between reality and the ideal world. In the ideal world Nirvana wouldn't have any healing murderers they snached out of Hell's grasp, because they never would have been murderers in the first place. In a slightly less ideal world, they might have meant to be murderers but at least would have been - selfish enough and smart enough to think about the consequences, and held back for that reason. Right?"

"Right — or, well, I'd say more than slightly, but basically right."

"So... what it takes to deter every smart selfish would-be murderer is the sort of thing you can learn about by experimenting with it. Right? You can't necessarily deter the ones who aren't smart and selfish enough, but the ones who are, you can find out what the best way to do that is."

"I guess you could... try? But I don't really know how you could tell for sure unless it was really obvious."

Also it kind of feels like it's missing the point.

"Well, you'd need an entire government coordinating on trying something, and seeing what kind of crime rate they wound up with and what the criminals they caught had to say for themselves."

"...but the criminals could lie. Or even if you put them under a Truthtelling they might not know for sure. Or refuse to say anything because they don't want to help there be fewer murderers. And you could end up with... I'm not sure how to say it... if you try changing the punishments and you end up with less or more crime it might still be because of something else? Unless you normally have the exact same amount each year."

"The exact same, no, but if you let the experiment go on for long enough you'd get an idea of the normal amount."

"I don't really see why that would be better than just, uh, I don't know if there's a word for this, but... thinking about how the world works?"