"I understand... What is abuse of debt?"

"Is the extra ninty-eight a kind of tax?"

"Abuse of debt can mean a lot of things. It's not just one thing. It's... Doing any things to people that are unfair and involve debt. Maybe someone says, we will pay you for this job but you have to live in this town where the work is... But I'm friends with the magistrate and they say you have to take a loan for your house, and the loan has really high extra amounts, interest, the extra on top of a loan amount is called interest. Or someone doesn't have any friends and needs money right now to buy food, and they were hungry and needed a loan once already and didn't pay it back on time, they did pay it back just too late... But they still need the loan to eat so they have to take it even though the loan-giver thinks they're risking not getting paid back ever so the interest is really high, like thirty per one hundred. Some people think the loan-giver is being unfair and the magistrate should say 'you can't give loans that have more interest than this much'. But then the hungry person just won't get to eat. So really you want to fix that - upstream, so people aren't so desperate in the first place... Or... Leaving something delicate where anyone could bump into it and saying, ah, you broke that, you have to pay to fix it, you don't have enough so you will get a loan from me right now! ...The extra ninety-eight is profit, not tax. Tax is when the government takes some money, because they are the government. Interest on loans is thought of as part of a contract. The government can also give loans and charge interest, but it's separate from tax."

Looks are exchanged all around the table.

"A person doesn't have any friends, on Earth does this happen a lot?"

"...I would not say a lot? I would not say never. I think usually this kind of thing, when someone says they have no friends what it really is- Your friends are not in the same town, they are maybe not even in the same country, you have never actually visited them with your body, but you still talk and share hobbies. Through computers, like the PDAs, talking at a distance over the internet- A sort of public square and library and posting board, anyone can put things on the internet and almost all PDAs can see it. An internet is working in Nivis but not on the rest of Ansaf yet..."

"People like this only have friends only on the internet only? Where is their family? If they go to a magistrate or someone and say: I don't have food! Something is wrong! Then what happens?"

"Yes, people like this only have friends on the internet. Some people don't like their family and go away from them. Different countries do different things. A lot of places go- Everyone gets some money every week, and the amount is supposed to be enough for food and a house. In my country, Ukraine, the magistrate or someone would say, 'Are you not getting your money? Where did the money go? Is someone taking it from you? Are you addicted to expensive things?'. If I said yes, I am addicted to things, or someone is taking it from me, they would talk to the police- Security people, or mind doctors, and try to stop the problem."

"But if there is no crime and the person is not addicted, just foolish, then they say, we gave you money and you are foolish and now you don't have food, is that what they say? Then they need money and there is abuse of debt?"

"Yes, if they spend their basic badly, and alienate their friends and family, and are mean so people don't want to help, and are very foolish, yes. Then they need money and there is abuse of debt. We have a saying, 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink'. -A horse is an animal."

"Ohh, okay. Whew. The people don't have friends because they're mean.

Wait. The people have friends on the internet. Why... Are they mean to people nearby and nice to people on the internet?"

"Sometimes. I've heard people say it's easier to fit in through a screen. Or the opposite- Nice to people nearby and mean on the internet... I feel like my explanation is missing a lot of pieces since I'm trying to use words people probably know."

"Maybe. I think that this is a small problem, and only mean people have it. But you talk about it seriously and make me think it's a big problem. Is this situation a small problem, and the other situations are big problems? The magistrate says you need a loan for a house, the leave something delicate so that people break it? Or maybe I don't understand something."

"All the situations are scams, all are bad and some people will try to do them anyway. It is a problem that we must be on guard against. It was a bad problem for a while on Earth, and got better later when more countries started giving everyone money. Some people want money and don't care that their smart idea for a scam to get more money will hurt other people, and country governments do things that are good for magistrates and bad for everyone else because they have incentive to. You have to design governments and rules so that the incentives don't make it a good idea to do mean or stupid things. This is why I like democracy. It's harder to to get everyone to vote for you than it is to make everyone afraid the people loyal to you will hurt them. So magistrates and other officials have reason to be honest, and nice, and competent."

"Like the inflation crisis, it is rare but we must be on guard against it... You're on guard against it by giving everyone money, and by the design of your government..." and she really wants to say more about that, but she's representing Allheart and must preserve the Allheart neutrality.

"Three kinds of government you talk about: Nivis, and democracy, and everyone is afraid of people loyal to one person. In the past, we have countries of everyone is afraid of people loyal to one person. Usually one catfolk. Then we make elves. Catfolk know that elves are useful for knowing things, but they don't know that, if give memories, elves can trust each other. And if other elves trust other people, elves trust those people too, everyone trust everyone. Surprise, everyone fight one catfolk.

Now, lots of shrines. Shrines are old and useful. Shrines are delicate. Shrines need guards. Now sometimes everyone is afraid of people loyal to one shrine. Other shrines see problem, see problem get bigger, talk, and the same thing happens again. New rule: shrines must let people leave, and town with more people must have more land. Also number of the children is important, but now I talk about shrines.

Shrines aren't people. They aren't happy or angry or afraid. But elves are happy or angry or afraid. We can say, the shrine wants a thing. This is wrong, actually the elves want a thing because of the shrine. But that is complicated talk for elves. Most people say the shrine wants a thing.

Shrines are delicate. What kind of shrines live? Must have people want shrines, must have people like shrines more than nearby shrines.

Bright towns and dark towns, they make a county. County with metal and county with glass and county with new species, they make a country. Monarch of country has friends, like you say, this is a problem. Now sometimes everyone is afraid of people loyal to one elph. Again, other elves trust each other, make new rule: elves are all the same. Elves watch each other."

"But this isn't democracy, it's just not making the people so angry that they attack the shrine. People in Lei don't have freedom. Since they don't know freedom, they aren't angry, but it's bad that they don't have freedom."

He's been thinking about debt. Normally, if you convince someone to give you money so you can do a project that benefits everyone, the person with the money gets gratitude from everyone for funding the project. The person who did the project doesn't have to pay back the same amount of money, plus interest - that would be silly since most projects don't make money at all. The point of funding a project isn't to make money. It's to do your part to support everyone else's Freedom to Live.

But what if you work for Nivis so someone else can learn at the university, and then they don't want to do the job they trained for? They're not violating your Freedom to Live, just treating you unfairly. What are you supposed to do, duel them?

So it seems like there's an argument for forcing them to repay their debt to you by working at the job they trained for. It just violates their Freedoms to Travel and to be Happy, and possibly also their Freedoms to Live and Die and Grow and Speak. Which is out of the question, so the Freedom Democracy will have a harder time getting people to work for Nivis and fall behind other countries.

He'll talk to Mofil after the meeting and hopefully he'll have a solution.

"If your money is tracked by computers, does that mean you can give money to someone on the internet?"

"I would call a country of everyone being afraid of one person or a small group, 'autocracy'. We use the suffix 'cracy' to describe kinds of countries. There is also 'theocracy', where religious leaders who say they speak for spirits or things like that rule, or 'aristocracy' where one family rules and passes rulership to their children... I am not sure what I would call the shrines system. It is not a theocracy, I think... The magic of elphs is clearly a powerful tool for trust. Earth has no such tools. This is good to know- I am learning, I want to learn more. Shrines are not elves, just like I am not Exodus, yes, I agree. Governments and towns and shrines are made of people, and of rules, and they do not always..." He meshes  his hands together, "Agree well. What do shrines do to make it so one wrong elph does not hurt things?"

"-And yes, you can send money to people over the internet. There are schemes of encryption that I am not the best person to explain, to make this private and - so you don't have to trust if you know the math and look at what the computer is doing. This sometimes get used for scams, people lying on the internet, but everything will have some scams. It is good if you know how to spot most of the scams, it is easy and convenient."

"We don't have theocracy. If you say the metahuman wants me to do something, I say why. If you say a spirit wants me to do something, I go talk to the spirit. Well, I talk to friend werewolf and they talk to the spirit... I guess maybe a spirit rules, is that a theocracy? But spirits don't rule well, they say many different things and people argue. Democracy is better."

"Yes, democracy and elves, both are better than spirits."

"Elves have many jobs, frequently move to new jobs. This is Torig's dance. If a bad elph hurts people in one job, we know! Next elph is good, difference is clear. Many elph jobs are - not rule, do watch other elves. Look in shrine, ask why magistrate do this, ask why shrine doesn't remember that, ask why does magistrate want to hide memories? Skills for asking are in shrines, but many small shrines, not big old important shrines. If a bad elph hurts people and hides, we break the bad watching shrines. We don't think, why are the skills bad, we just try new skills. We talk to people, many people, not only housechiefs, many kinds of people, and ask, does the magistrate want you to keep a secret? They can't keep a secret from elves.

Nosimasna has many small shrines, like Lei has many small shines for watching other elves, Nosimasna uses same idea but all shrines. Lei has many useful memories now, old shrines are useful, but Nosimasna is example."

"Everything will have some scams? Maybe I don't understand scams. I think scams are very rare?

If there is a scam on the internet, like... I say I send you a book, you pay me internet money, I don't send you a book, what happens? Oh, internet money is private, so I say, if you pay I send you a book! You must pay! And you say you pay me already! The police ask me and ask you and they don't know about the money because the money is private? Is that correct?"

"That is mostly right for internet scams. The internet is free, and sometimes it's also anonymous- Nobody knows who is saying things. Which is good for freedom of speech. What happens is, someone takes your money and doesn't send the book, you don't get your money back. You say on the internet- That guy is a scammer, he took my money! Don't trust him! And people do not trust sellers who do not have a good reputation on the internet. Sometimes there are broker organizations, where someone says, 'you can buy and sell things on my internet place and if there is a scam or a dispute, tell me, I will pay everyone back, but I will keep one in one hundred of the money every time and I will kick you out if you have disputes often'. Or there are money-handling organizations that say, 'whenever you pay someone, actually I pay them and you pay me back later, and if someone scams you, we will deal with it instead of you, and you pay just a little bit extra'."

He shrugs.

"Or you can carry physical money around and go to places to buy things in person. Convenience? Risk? Extra cost? It depends on what is most important to you sometimes."

"Freedom of speech, meaning you say things...how? However you like? How does anonymous talk on the internet help with that? I guess, I understand that it means you can say things, but I don't understand why people listen?"

"It means no magistrate can go, 'saying that is a crime!'. Freedom of speech is not freedom to say anything with no consequences, or that people will listen. It is saying things and the government won't stop you. Unless you use speech to do crimes, like trying to get people to hurt each other. It is a matter that is debated often among Earth societies, where the right to speech ends and the right to safety begins."