"That sounds like it rests on the idea that if they don't commit murder they'll be judged differently."

"I think murder looms extremely large in how most people are judged. Even in infernal Cheliax, probably."

"You expect that most people who don't commit murder are neutral?" Narikopolus is not neutral. Then again, Narikopolus has been torturing a lot of people to death, so that doesn't really prove anything.

"I am not very sure. This is a costly topic to research and what we have is guesswork. But - in places where people don't worship Asmodeus, I think most people who are Evil are Evil because they've killed people they did not need to, including killing babies just born or in the womb, or tortured people, or raped people, or enslaved people.

My guess would be that around here most people are Evil because worshipping Asmodeus is a great Evil but... worshipping Asmodeus is easy for most people to repent of once they are not required to do it, few of them having done it for reasons that are - important to their concept of themselves. I would expect that probably the people who haven't done great unnecessary violence to others will for the most part not be damned, not if they're given some time and guidance to - reorient away from Asmodeus. Which is time and guidance we are trying to provide.

It's harder, of course, for people who have, but - very much not impossible."

What, is all enslaving people evil? How are you supposed to -

"But you'd expect anyone who has done any of those things to be judged evil."

"Not everyone. But - a lot of them, probably, particularly if they haven't changed their ways."

"And haven't done corresponding Good things - saving peoples' lives, and improving them, counts to everyone's credit as much as hurting people counts against them."

He really hates to argue, but there are, in fact, two things that are essential to maintaining his position in Menador, and to maintaining Menador's degree of separation from the south, instead of ending up managed by incompetent crown appointees like Ravounel and the Hellcoast.

One, absolute loyalty and obedience to the new Queen, and evidence that if anyone gives him direction, he can be relied on to run the archduchy in a manner that's in step with the new regime.

Two, the entire archduchy not being a flaming disaster. Right now it is probably the least disastrous archduchy, and he'd really like to keep it that way.

"So, it seems to me that the vast majority of Chelish men who commit murder, or the handful of remaining capital crimes, were probably already evil, but are moving their fate from Hell to Abaddon, or from Abaddon to the Abyss. But from the perspective of keeping public order, those ultimate fates are invisible. People don't see them, and they don't think about them. A lengthy execution is a moment for everyone else sees what awaits them, if they die with no advocate.

On the other hand, to kill a man with a sword, or an arrow, is to treat him as an equal. He's in your power, but not fully, so you use what you have to hand. Such a man, if he's an orc at heart, thinks he can expect Volkorgoth when he dies, having been honorably killed. He's probably wrong, and going to the Abyss either way, but that's not what he believes. You stab him, or even hang him, and with very little courage he can tell himself that he has nothing to fear at all. He may think that his fate may in fact be improved by his actions, and he'll face no great pain on the way. You crucify him, and most people will figure even the orc gods have no such use for him, having ultimately been killed as a slave. Even if he's a human, he's still very clear on the difference between dying in agony and humiliation, and being sent on his way quite kindly because we merely don't want to see him again."

"And your guess is that there are a lot of men who would commit murders, if they expected a swift death for it, and are only not committing murders because they expect a slow one?" He is really quite sure it doesn't work that way in general but there is not a lot of point in trying to convince the archduke about men the archduke has met and they haven't. 

"I believe that there are not in Lastwall. I might believe that there are not in Taldor. I worry that the same may not be true in Menador. I do expect there are still many improvements to be made." It's not as if he was thinking about how little torture he could get away with when he got into his current sentencing habits.

....well, he sort of was, but in the sense that he was being lazy, not in the sense that he was merciful, which is not really the same thing in most contexts.

"It was important to Iomedae, when she tried it, to notice whether it seemed to make any crimes more common. So that she knew what she was trading. It didn't, so that is how the countries that follow Her teachings do it, but - if it did prove to make other things worse then it would not necessarily be worth it."

"But it's still always evil."

"There are things that are evil but still permitted if they are the least evil possible option. It is common for people who" care about paying lip service to Iomedaenism but actually want to do whatever they want "are trying to reconcile this with other practices to take this too far and do lots of evil things without really checking if it's the least evil available option, but - in making policy one should generally try to do the thing that has the best results."

He winces slightly at that oversimplification but he can't think of a quick way to summarize when that's false and when it's true without giving the man a very long lecture on morality that he seems unlikely to want.

They are literally here to give long lectures on morality. And he's here to pay lip service, but, you know, at minimum better lip service than he gave Asmodeus, which is a bit of a difficult bar to clear.

He nods, thoughtfully.

"I think it's important to make the transition as clean as possible. I don't want to declare an end to executions by torture, and then need to go back on it a few months later. Maybe we should, but if there's anything with no obvious risk of causing a crime wave, perhaps we can make those changes first. It's less evil the quicker you kill them?"

"If they suffer less, which would usually be 'you kill them more quickly'. Giving them time to reflect before you kill them is good, though."

"So if we nail the arms straight above the head, and they die inside an hour, is that better, or worse?"

This is actually traditionally considered the more severe form of the punishment, so it should be fine. Usually doesn't even take an hour.

"...better. I think."

"Ideally one would talk to someone who's experienced both. I don't know if that describes anyone....and you shouldn't do it to anyone just to learn the answer."

"With the arms out, the condemned is up for a day or so. With the arms up, the process is faster. The condemned suffers more acutely, but it's usually over inside half an hour. Obviously it depends some on individual strength. Traditionally, the faster one is considered the more severe form, so I don't see that there should be any problems switching to it."

"It seems like it might also be confusing to people if the change you make when you stop being Asmodean is to switch to punishments understood to be more severe, whether or not they are, and from that description I am somewhat uncertain of."

"Is there some small city or region where you could try not executing people torturously, to extend to the rest of the Archduchy if it doesn't cause a lot of problems?"

"Maybe. There's not a consistent law about how to crucify people, and it's a much smaller change than ending torturous executions all together. In practice I don't think it will be very confusing, and I'll consider how much more change the legal system will bear right now.

Petty treason, by the way, is violent rebellion against an authority other than the government. Though right now it isn't officially a separate crime, and the technical sentence is generally murder or attempted murder."

"Can you tell us a bit more about what authorities other than the government there are that people are rebelling against?"

"The master of a slave or indenture, the employer of a servant, the owner of the land that a person resides on, or another superior as specified by contract, such as a husband or wife married on unequal terms."