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Tumunzahar makes Menegroth look like a contract project. Which, the Dwarves assure her, it was. The stonework is astonishingly careful and beautiful, silky to the touch up close while from a distance it gives the impression of stretching on forever above, a sky of stone with crystals for stars. Vast natural cave systems are connected by dozens of perfectly smooth, gently sloped broad stone pathways from which the fall, if she fell, would be several miles down. There are handrails. "We use those to move materials carts," someone explains to her, "we're not going to be reckless."
There's an amphitheater, a place where a hundred of the stone walkways twine around to create space for a hundred thousand people to sit in close proximity, and someone is giving a lecture or a demonstration at the base of it, the seats closest to him filled with eager, tiny, bearded Dwarf-children.
And they spiral down, and down, and down, past waterfalls and egg-sized gemstones left half in the rock and halls of crystal. Everything grows gradually more ornate and more perfectly maintained and the clang of hammers fades behind them. "People say," her guide says, "that we only have a council instead of a single King because there were nine winners of the competition to design the throne so we couldn't just select one person to sit it." And they push open the doors to reveal, indeed, nine thrones so elaborate it would be hard to choose between them, and nine squat bearded people sitting them.
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Do you want to keep discussing this?
purposeful_glory
'Want'. It's probably a good idea, you think of things I don't. ...The wyvern poison hurts like fuck for about twelve hours and then it kills you absent medical attention, if you're an Asgardian, I don't know what it'd do to you. My spell will work on it fine and I have no idea what Thauron might or might not be able to do about it.
That's too long. There should be things that'll act much faster, I expect he'll be distracted with you but that, were it his priority, he could fix something like that. Honestly, I could fix something like that, we mostly cannot be poisoned because we can consciously manage our reactions.
'the orcs won't start experiencing constant pain in the agreed-upon sense again until you take action indicating breach of our agreement or until ten years have passed'. I don't like that. It does not leave me confident you get all ten years.
'the orcs won't start experiencing constant pain in the agreed-upon sense again until you take action indicating breach of our agreement or until ten years have passed'. I don't like that. It does not leave me confident you get all ten years.
purposeful_glory
Not sure I like the qualifier 'constant', come to think of it.
Possibilities: they're going to change how they manage orcs anyway, because they're worried about your little orc insurrection and believe that stopping the chronic pain will make it harder for you to convert anyone. Counterargument: they can just make all the orcs swear again - checking with osanwë for the proper intent - once adults, and have presumably started doing that now that they know you're doing the orc thing.
The Oath is deceptive in some way we're not thinking of: possibly, but it doesn't need to be, because this genuinely costs them very little. It'd under other circumstances be the perfect element for a trade: it matters tremendously to us and not at all to them, and they can fix it for almost nothing. With leverage that perfect I'm not sure why he'd risk derailing the deal with something clever.
They're going to take true-but-partial information to my family in some manner in order to derail cooperation between you and my father. Counterargument: do they know about the memory project or that he gave a ten-year estimate? If he's being truthful about his sources of information he shouldn't have had any means to learn about it.
He thinks what I'm doing matters and he wants me stopped. Unlikely. An allied front of the free peoples of Middle-earth, which I do think given time I could achieve, isn't going to win this war and may not even buy us all that much time.
And if he has intelligence as good as he's implying, he could have recaptured me sooner.
This is a step in a larger play to convince my family you work for the Enemy - I don't know what the other steps would be, or how we'll see them coming, and beyond withdrawing their cooperation I don't think my family has the means to harm you even if they decided to. They could attempt to kill you the next time you're materialized in their presence?
He doesn't think any of this has any strategic relevance and is mostly doing it to mess with your head. That - requires a model of you that's almost good enough but not quite. You said you don't think sadness will delay you developing teleportation and buying up a galaxy's worth of destructive tech to throw at him. Do you think someone observing you could have predicted that?
He genuinely thinks that if he keeps offering you deals like these, and you keep making them, then eventually it won't feel so outrageous to work for him. That would happen to some people, particularly if it's already broadly believed that they're working for the Enemy. I don't see it happening to you, though if you're deceiving me about some part of your personality because it'll distract from my recovery now would be the time to mention it.
There could be a prophecy we don't know about.
It almost feels unsporting to mention the most obvious candidate, 'this is your graceful end to your very clever game, which you probably got more information from than I would have hoped'. But. For the record, that's what I consider likeliest.
The Oath is deceptive in some way we're not thinking of: possibly, but it doesn't need to be, because this genuinely costs them very little. It'd under other circumstances be the perfect element for a trade: it matters tremendously to us and not at all to them, and they can fix it for almost nothing. With leverage that perfect I'm not sure why he'd risk derailing the deal with something clever.
They're going to take true-but-partial information to my family in some manner in order to derail cooperation between you and my father. Counterargument: do they know about the memory project or that he gave a ten-year estimate? If he's being truthful about his sources of information he shouldn't have had any means to learn about it.
He thinks what I'm doing matters and he wants me stopped. Unlikely. An allied front of the free peoples of Middle-earth, which I do think given time I could achieve, isn't going to win this war and may not even buy us all that much time.
And if he has intelligence as good as he's implying, he could have recaptured me sooner.
This is a step in a larger play to convince my family you work for the Enemy - I don't know what the other steps would be, or how we'll see them coming, and beyond withdrawing their cooperation I don't think my family has the means to harm you even if they decided to. They could attempt to kill you the next time you're materialized in their presence?
He doesn't think any of this has any strategic relevance and is mostly doing it to mess with your head. That - requires a model of you that's almost good enough but not quite. You said you don't think sadness will delay you developing teleportation and buying up a galaxy's worth of destructive tech to throw at him. Do you think someone observing you could have predicted that?
He genuinely thinks that if he keeps offering you deals like these, and you keep making them, then eventually it won't feel so outrageous to work for him. That would happen to some people, particularly if it's already broadly believed that they're working for the Enemy. I don't see it happening to you, though if you're deceiving me about some part of your personality because it'll distract from my recovery now would be the time to mention it.
There could be a prophecy we don't know about.
It almost feels unsporting to mention the most obvious candidate, 'this is your graceful end to your very clever game, which you probably got more information from than I would have hoped'. But. For the record, that's what I consider likeliest.
purposeful_glory
He could actually want you as an information source. You don't tell me much; I tell you things all the time and he probably hasn't snuck a Balrog into every site I visit. I don't know how thorough the mindreading setup they have is - I don't think you do either or you'd probably either talk to me more or tell me it isn't that good - I'm not sure he could have recaptured you sooner. People know loosely how far I have to go to get to and from where we were meeting but you spent much of the time invisible or in flight and the only one who had more exact information was Findekáno, told by osanwë. If Balrogs can read minds the one I killed threw the fight.
I don't know how easy I am to predict by observation like that. I did go from learning an unfortunate fact about my family background to making sarcastic remarks awfully quickly but that was after the Balrog was dead and I haven't otherwise been operating under particularly extreme stress.
I became less, not more, vaguely hopeful that there was some exchange to be made I'd see as all-around positive over the course of the conversation Thauron and I had and don't think increased exposure will make me friendlier to his plans or more interested in a job. If nothing else I imagine he or Morgoth would eventually want to resort to some or other use of mind-affecting magic I couldn't tolerate; I don't even let Lúthien sing around me.
I have not come up with any clever ways to convince you that I'm real - or more to the point that I'm not already working for the Enemy; I suppose you think I exist in some sense if only as a recurring character - so of course you think so but I do appreciate your willingness to, what should I even call it, play with other scenarios for my benefit.
I don't know how easy I am to predict by observation like that. I did go from learning an unfortunate fact about my family background to making sarcastic remarks awfully quickly but that was after the Balrog was dead and I haven't otherwise been operating under particularly extreme stress.
I became less, not more, vaguely hopeful that there was some exchange to be made I'd see as all-around positive over the course of the conversation Thauron and I had and don't think increased exposure will make me friendlier to his plans or more interested in a job. If nothing else I imagine he or Morgoth would eventually want to resort to some or other use of mind-affecting magic I couldn't tolerate; I don't even let Lúthien sing around me.
I have not come up with any clever ways to convince you that I'm real - or more to the point that I'm not already working for the Enemy; I suppose you think I exist in some sense if only as a recurring character - so of course you think so but I do appreciate your willingness to, what should I even call it, play with other scenarios for my benefit.
Mandos can read you like a book, go through your whole history and string out how you feel about if it he likes. Moringotto can't do that or I am reasonably sure he already would have. He can, obviously, torture and disorient you badly enough that the distinction between public and private thoughts becomes hard to maintain...what have you told me that you wouldn't want the Enemy to know?
purposeful_glory
Well, I want the Enemy to exist in a total information vacuum or not exist at all, but in general - where I go and who I talk to, what I'm working on, what your father's working on, how guns work, all kinds of interesting personal buttons he could try to push and might be better at pushing than I expect, limitations of my powers - If he can extract specific information out of minds but only at great cost he could take my sorcery alphabet if he knew about that and got hold of me. I still don't know if it will work for anyone else. I should - try to teach Lúthien a healing spell or something, that would be safe.
The time distortion makes it hard - I could probably keep those things from him for a few years. Not forever, but for that long. But he could still know them tomorrow.
Loki, can I read the transcripts again?
Loki, can I read the transcripts again?
purposeful_glory
Yesterday's or the others? she asks, flipping to the relevant section in her book.
Thauron's deal.
Another possibility is that he is just doing this so you'll return, alone and in secret, to a location of his choosing at a time of his choosing where there'll be fifteen Balrogs in addition to him and his werewolves. I was wondering if his conditions were met if I flew over myself, but no, you very much have to deliver me.
purposeful_glory
And you think the werewolves were just easy to kill because he wanted them to lead me to him, that he knew I was there. I wasn't being particularly stealthy before, I suppose. She considers. I might be able to do fifteen Balrogs, assuming they're all about like the one I saw and there's nothing in place to return their senses when I've taken them. I'm more maneuverable than them and fifteen's too many to effectively surround with anyway, you lose that advantage at their size versus mine with three or maybe four. I might be able to do fifteen Balrogs and a bunch of squishy werewolves, even if they're usually faster or smarter than they seemed - I doubt he modified how much force it takes to cut through their spines. I almost certainly cannot do fifteen Balrogs, a bunch of werewolves, and Thauron, even with no clear picture of what he would do in the course of fighting me.
I assume that my family told you that this is essentially how I was captured in the first place? A deal with terms we wouldn't accept but were inclined to play along with, a rendezvous that he selected and at which we were vastly overmatched. You're stronger than us. You are not strong enough.
purposeful_glory
No, actually, they didn't mention it. What were you trying to deal for?
We take a Silmaril, he offers us a free hand to evacuate the continent on the condition that we do that and not come back, he digs in here and Beleriand is probably destroyed whenever he does fight the other Valar, but without any collateral damage.
purposeful_glory
Where were you going to go? Are there other continents besides here and Valinor?
Yeah, one east of here and one south. We were going to accept the Silmaril and the civilian evacuation time. We didn't expect him to keep his end either, but we still showed up to talk, and it turns out that was all he'd wanted.
I don't know. Maybe he'd legitimately rather offer you a job and will only attack once he's convinced you won't take it. Maybe he wasn't ready. Maybe he thought you'd take the deal and he'd get the added bonus of taking me prisoner again and if you survived the ambush having the leverage to break apart your alliances. D'you'think Elu'd react well to that transcript if it came to his attention?
purposeful_glory
I don't tell Elu lots of things. And it might be harder for Thauron to deliver a credible message to Doriath. But no.
He can talk directly to Melian. Presumably she is smart enough not to listen. Exhausted frustration. The only other thing of note I came up with last night was that he claims orcs suffer even after they die, but didn't swear to that.
purposeful_glory
I wasn't imagining they were exactly happy with Mandos, but it's possible they are not in that particular variety of torment. She shakes her head. I should have thought this through more before I even asked you, trying to outmaneuver him here is a terrible idea, he has too much informational advantage and too many ways to play anything we try against us, we should turn around and I can either not go at all, count myself lucky I got the orcs two weeks - or weigh the risk that he'll get some advantage over the Men and go early when he only has four Balrogs ready or something -