"That is both completely ridiculous and not really surprising in retrospect."

"It would have taken a lot of effort to avoid."

"People."

"Elves. Mostly."

"Humans seem to have less opportunity to be self-important and jerks about it here but trust me, that is not an inherent psychological difference."

"Suppose not. The Elves might cut it out if they realized humans were like that."

"What, out of a desire not to be tarred with the same brush?"

"They like to think they're more morally sophisticated, they'd hate the idea we all have the same failings."

"If they were actually more morally sophisticated they wouldn't have the homophobia problem," she snorts. "They can learn to deal."

"The Valar told them that. I think most people take what their gods say very seriously."

"That's true. One would think the Doom would have gotten them over it, but, religion." She shrugs. "Homophobia still isn't actually more morally sophisticated than not that."

"Obedience to the whims of deities does not strike me as particularly morally sophisticated even when the deities are right."

"Also a good point. Sound, maybe, sophisticated, no."

"M'lord King thinks that it's halfway to being the Enemy to discard Eru's moral teachings."

...

"That's how the Valar see it too, I think. I take it whoever offended your sister did not say she was halfway to the Enemy."

"That would not have ended as well."

"They're good. They're not good enough, not all the time, and they're wrong, but - I would very deeply regret it now if, when I'd been younger, I'd had the power to hurt them for mistakes."

"I don't think she would have hurt them. I do think she would have done something less diplomatic than deciding that traipsing into their culture and trying to change things would do more harm than good and dropping the subject."

"Good for her. On doing that, I mean, and I wouldn't blame her for having made more of a fuss."

"Making a fuss will be much more effective with established leverage and a greater familiarity with the culture in question."

"Yep. Know where they're coming from, then change them."

"So far they seem to be coming from, "the Doom did not teach us that the Valar are fallible.'"

"The Valar get excessively angry about evildoing. I don't think they'll get from there to 'the Valar are wrong about the nature of evildoing'. And I'm not sure how to get them there."

"The Doom was evildoing and I'm not sure if it's possible to get any farther on the subject with someone who doesn't get that yet."