Karal has been slightly squirming with the desire to talk the entire time, not so much because he had anything very coherent to say as because being interrupted like that was a bizarre and uncomfortable experience - not half as much so as for Vanyel, clearly - but Leareth is the one who actually has some sort of relationship with the man, so Karal cannot really complain about him wanting to have a conversation.  A much more sensible one than he would have managed, he has to admit, although he expects he would've gotten there eventually.

Yes.  The shift in body language is clear again - he's uncertain, far from Leareth's calm self-control, and more than a little haunted himself.  He still can't bring himself to look at Vanyel for more than half a second without flinching, but his eyes are soft, and the broken sympathy in his face isn't a lie.  (And notably, if Vanyel is inclined to wonder about that, he's not wearing a prisoner's trapped expression.  He's in pain, but he doesn't mind where he is.)

"I'm Karal, the... original person. It turns out we can share. Ah, I don't even know where to start."  He will find something sensible to say in the next second, if Vanyel doesn't, but it might be better to see what Vanyel will ask about first.

(Leareth sends a brief wordless mental note of apology - he does endorse having jumped in to explain faster, he thinks, but he definitely could have done it more politely, he just - doesn't yet have new mental habits suited to handing control back and forth like this.) 

Vanyel blinks at...Karal, apparently. That does make more sense than - he's not even sure what he was assuming, he kind of just didn't have a theory before Leareth jumped in to provide one - 

- the initial baffling comment was actually in Rethwellani, he's realizing now (which didn't stand out enormously in itself, at the time - he's been fluent since he was a child, pretty much everyone at court is, and probably more than half of the books he's read on Leareth's recommendation are in that language), but - spoken with an accent - and the man doesn't look Rethwellani - 

"...You're Karsite, aren't you," he hears himself say. And then - he is comfortable in the language, if not perfectly fluent... He switches to speaking Karsite. "Would this be easier for you?" 

(He doesn't mind, he sends back to Leareth, it was just going to be a confusing situation no matter what, and it's even clearer now how much trying to pre-arrange any of it wouldn't have worked.)

He nods at Vanyel's first words, and then... He's been speaking Rethwellani with Leareth from the beginning, since Leareth started out in it, and to have this man of all people be the first person to speak his mother tongue to him since he left home - only half a day ago, but so much has happened that it feels like forever - nearly breaks him again. 

"I think so."  It makes it easier to look at him, mostly - to see the man in front of him, ground down with misery and exhaustion and kind to a stranger despite that, and not a nightmare.  "Thank you. You're... I have no idea what I was expecting you to be like, but it wasn't this."

Vanyel's mouth twists, bitterly; he redirects it into a crooked humorless smile.

"...I suppose you wouldn't. I don't - I mean, I do know how I - must look to the other side. It's - maybe I forget, sometimes, because, I don't feel - invincible and terrifying." He's a little more hesitant in Karsite, but honestly, it's mostly that this is...not the easiest topic in the world. "I - want to say I'm sorry, but I don't. Know if that's fair. When I can't see what we - I - could've done differently. ...We didn't start this war. Just - didn't want to be destroyed. But...you aren't the one who started it either, it's not your fault." 

And now, of course, he's thinking again about how much faster they could have ended it, if Randi were willing to send an actual invading force to take Sunhame. There's a bright line there, he knows that, but - it's hard to see how it's any kinder, at this point, to keep on doing what they've been doing now for years... 

It's painful, how fair Vanyel is trying to be.  Karal sees why he and Leareth understand each other - almost nobody else is like this, to feel like even an apology or an explanation is an unfair burden on someone whose fate they can't or won't change.  It has something to do with having that much power, maybe, but he's very sure most people with that much power are very different.

"Of course you seem invincible and terrifying, when we only ever see the lightning."  The memory makes him close his eyes in pain.  "But... yes, I know you didn't start it.  I... imagined that you of all people must have had more choices than this, but... you didn't, did you."  That is not the face of someone who had any choices better than to suffer in endless horror - more than Karal's own people, somehow, and Karal is only now starting to think about what it would have been like, for someone who hates killing, to have to stay back and rain destruction on people helpless to defend themselves.

"....Everyone always has a choice." That's probably something Leareth said to him, isn't it, or at least it's part of how Leareth has shaped the way he thinks. Vanyel ducks his head. "Doesn't mean you have any good ones. I - didn't like any of mine. I could say I picked the one where I watch fewer of my friends die, but -" Helpless shrug. "You know, it'd feel more reasonable to say that if it had worked better." 

Vanyel doesn't know if this conversation is in any way a good idea, or - even why he's having it, really. He's exhausted and everything hurts and - it's not like he didn't know what he was doing to the people on the other side, how much damage he was causing - it's most of what he's been aware of for months - but it feels almost unfair to have to face it here, of all places. Valdemar has lost so much, so stupidly, and he's angry, or would be if he had the energy for it. It would feel more satisfying to be angry, he thinks. Only, the people he wants to say all of that to are the King who started this war in the first place, or the stupid blackrobe priest-mages summoning demons, or whoever is behind the coup. Not Karal. 

...He's not sure if it would feel that simple even if he did have the actually-responsible parties in front of him, is the thing. Maybe everything is broken and everyone is trapped and no one could have done better. That's definitely the kind of world it feels like he's in, lately. 

Vanyel isn't overtly showing that much emotion, but Leareth is going to send a quiet mental nudge of warning, that Vanyel seems - fragile, right now - and Leareth isn't sure what "being careful" looks like here for Karal, or whether there's even a way to be more careful that would help, but he's worried. 

Karal doesn't really know what being careful looks like here.  Maybe the entire conversation is too much and he should stop talking about all this, but he doesn't think that's the right thing to do either.

His voice is quiet.  "I'm sorry, about your friends. I don't... think it's wrong, for us to say that to each other, even if we had other choices that would've just resulted in slightly different people dead."  He doesn't know if any of his other choices were better, and there's little point in trying to think about it now.  Sometimes everything is awful, that is definitely how the world works, but... they can still try not to hurt each other, when they can.

"I appreciate that. And...I'm sorry as well." 

Vanyel would rather not keep endlessly rehashing it, though. He takes a deep breath. Lets it out. "- And you're - sharing bodies with Leareth, now? I assume you're not still in Karse..." Though it's very strange to think that presumably not that long ago Leareth was close enough to be in Mindspeech range, if only briefly, he surely wouldn't have stuck around on the front. 

Vanyel probably isn't deliberately fishing for more information than Leareth would spontaneously tell him, but that's probably part of his curiosity. ...Not that Leareth minds, particularly. Karal doesn't really know anything about his current operations that he's keeping secret from Vanyel, who knows that he operates from the north and has extensive caches of supplies. (Leareth actually pointed Vanyel to one of them, years ago, as a way to verify some facts about himself.) Vanyel doesn't know about the Cataclysm, Leareth never brought it up mostly because it's unverifiable for him, but it's - ancient history, it's not strategically sensitive. 

He bows his head for a moment, letting himself remember, but - that's enough, for now, and Vanyel is right that it might be easier to talk about other things.  That conversation went as well as it reasonably could, he thinks.

"We only made it to the north this evening."  He does, for this, make the effort to make his thoughts clear enough in advance that Leareth can warn him if there's something he shouldn't be saying.  "It's not quite been two days yet, since he came back, but he tells me the dream happens as soon as there's something new for you to tell each other.  What a strange thing."

Nod. "And so you just - left with him? ...I guess you probably didn't have much of a choice." 

How in the world are you supposed to approach asking someone if they know what kind of person Leareth is and what he's done, when they don't actually have a choice about it. Overall it seems more likely that Karal does know at least some of it - Leareth could have hidden more from Vanyel than he actually has, he doesn't seem inclined to...put on an act, or at least not a "good person" act...and it's not like it would be a practical lie to maintain for long, when Leareth probably has all sorts of horrifying business to hurry back to. 

"I'm - sorry about that happening to you," he finds himself saying instead, which is a supremely stupid thing to say, really. 

He smiles a little, shakes his head.  "I'm all right.  Well, no, I'm not, but... not because of him."  Because of you, he had meant to say when he thought about this conversation before.  It's still true, and if Vanyel thinks about what could have happened he'll likely see it, but Karal finds himself hoping he doesn't.  They'll still have to talk about it someday, but... some other day, when it might hurt him less, if that ever happens. 

"He keeps saying it was unusual luck that he didn't have to hurt me, and of course he's right, but - he didn't, when he didn't have to.  He let me go home, and... bury someone, and - you're right that I didn't have much of a choice, but I didn't mind going with him, after that."

Oh, so Leareth just happened to get the kind of person who'll go along with anything to avoid causing trouble Vanyel definitely wants to snap something sarcastic, but he wants to snap it at Leareth - not at Karal, who's been hurt enough, and by Vanyel specifically, he didn't miss that implication - and he can't, actually, have a private conversation with Leareth right now. Anymore. Ever again? ...There's something immensely frustrating about that, actually, it's– it's maybe that he had gotten used to Leareth being someone he couldn't meaningfully hurt. 

You’ve made yourself an enemy, he said to the man once, angrily, spitting the words. When the time comes, Leareth, I’m going to come north, and I’m going to have all of my friends with me. I will kill you, and I will make it hurt. And Leareth - wasn't angry, or hurt, or defensive, or anything really. Which of course was infuriating at the time, but...that was a long time ago. 

(I cannot say I would change my decision, Leareth said then, if I could go back and do it over, which I cannot. Still. Your Tylendel was a light in the world, as are all people, and I am sorry to have caused you pain.)

He wants– he doesn't know what he wants. For it not to be a horrible thing to do to shout at Karal for helping someone like Leareth. For there to be something he can be angry with where it would actually help, which is such a stupid thing to want. For the whole world to stop, maybe. 

"...I suppose you're happy that he's planning to conquer Valdemar," Vanyel says icily, which is probably still a cruel thing to say but it slips out before he can stop it. "Did he tell you how he arranged to kill our Herald-Mages and kidnap our mage-gifted children for years, so Valdemar would be weaker?" Not that it was enough, in the end, to make things much better for Karse. That would definitely be a cruel thing to say out loud, and he manages not to. 

....Leareth had not actually gotten into that with Karal, which in hindsight is - definitely an oversight - though there were kind of a lot of things. (He's not sure if Karal had inferred it from the dream-setting.) He - had been intending to explain at the same time he explained everything, but, again only in hindsight, it's obvious that this was pretty likely to come up. Vanyel doesn't know about the full plan, but the Foresight dream alone makes it clear what the first step is. Or - was originally - it's complicated - 

- anyway. It's true. It's also true that his decades of advance preparations, intended to overdetermine the outcome as possible and make for a shorter and cleaner invasion, included some amount of contracting with mercenaries in the north to attack Herald-Mages and snatch Gifted children.

...Well, he did in fact stop those operations when he told Vanyel he would, he's...not sure how long ago – he remembers the dream conversation quite clearly but the only hint at the date is that it was shortly after the (genuinely accidental, as far as he knows, or at least a god-steered 'accident' rather than a Leareth-steered one) death of Valdemar's then-heir, and Learaeth...cannot currently recall what exact year that was in, apparently. Before the war started, but definitely less than a decade ago? 

(It's stressful navigating the Foresight dream conversation while this impaired, especially with - added complications - though that's obviously not Karal's fault and he doesn't think Karal's presence is contributing nearly as much to the stress as the inherent fact being incredibly disoriented.) 

Anyway, he - needs to actually read his notes to remember everything he was thinking, but he's pretty sure part of it was that, up to the moment when he actually calls for his army to head south, he's - still looking for a less destructive way to obtain the resources he needs later. It is on priors incredibly unlikely that gaining Vanyel's trust and cooperation is a possible way out, but if the gods want to throw them into a dreamscape together at regular intervals for years anyway, Leareth was determined not to waste that. 

(He's not going to take control, or even make a bid for Karal to respond a particular way, just - if he'd been more capable of thinking ahead, and circumstances had been better for it, he would have tried to supply some of this context beforehand.) 

(There very much were a lot of things, and Karal doesn't blame Leareth for not explaining, or even think he particularly made the wrong call.  He admits he didn't infer anything from the dream, in which there have also been a lot of things, but he did get the impression that Leareth was doing something awful, and probably the invasion itself isn't even it, is it.  Doesn't seem awful enough.)

There's only so much kindness either of them has in them, it seems.  If Vanyel wants to have this argument, Karal is not going to refuse.  (But he will not go too far in it, either.  He knows all the reasons he shouldn't, and he doesn't want to, after the earlier conversation.  But it might do them both good, not to pretend they're not angry about everything that's happened.)

"Maybe I should be happy about all these things.  I promise you I'm not.  Shall I ask you which deaths you're happy about?"  His voice started out calm, but it's impossible to speak that last thought without letting some anger leak into it.

...Well, he really was asking for that. Oddly, it almost makes Vanyel feel better. On steadier ground. It's...less confusing, for Karal to be angry - 

(- and feels like it's more of an allowable motion to– ....no, he still, can't, actually, be angry with Karal for, what, for being willing to share a body with Leareth rather than preferring to die? Some part of him still wants to snarl, you have a choice, everyone always has a choice, you don't have to work with a monster - but he doesn't think he means it, really. Not when he's been talking to Leareth for a decade, when in some ways - many ways - he's come to respect and admire the man. When - and it's a thought that hurts, but Vanyel thinks it's true - when it sometimes feels like Leareth is the only person who understands him, anymore. If their positions were reversed, then...would he, really, choose to die rather than be a passenger to Leareth's life– ...well, he probably would. But that has more to do with how he feels about being alive, doesn't it. 

The whole awful inexorable arc of the past decade, the life he was forced into without being given a choice, wasn't Leareth's doing, even if Leareth is the person standing at the end of it. 

...now he's mostly just tired and sad, but in an odd way he still prefers that to whatever he was feeling beforehand. It's comfortingly familiar.) 

Shrug. "Not especially. Even when they did something awful, it's - it doesn't undo it, killing them. There are just - some deaths I regret less than others. ...I have to admit I don't really regret killing Lord Nedren and his demon-summoning mage, when they were hanging around in Hardorn killing peasants. Except for how it inspired some Bard to write the stupid song." 

Oh no he said the last part out loud. Vanyel doesn't think he meant to say that out loud. 

(The incident that earned Vanyel his "Demonsbane" moniker. There's indeed a song, very popular in Valdemar. Leareth admittedly has no idea if it's known in Karse.) 

He nods with a sigh.  "From what I remember of Lord Nedren, I don't think I can blame you."  He didn't know the details of that last mission, except that the man went to Hardorn and died there, but his holding was near enough for Karal to know what he was like, and killing peasants doesn't exactly sound uncharacteristic.  The song is unfamiliar, but that... may be for the best, under the circumstances.

That was not much anger at all, and Karal isn't sure if there are more emotions left.  Or - of course there are, but maybe not now, and he should let Leareth talk, at some point.  "And for the rest - I don't need you to agree with my choices, just to understand what they are.  And even that isn't really important, it's just... if I'm going to be here from now on, I wanted us to know each other."  A lot to ask from one meeting, maybe.

... And then he realizes something.  I still might not be here, next time.  Should I... warn him about that...?  He feels like he should, because otherwise he's going to hate the conversation they will inevitably have about him afterward, but maybe that isn't the most important factor in existence.

Why does the Karsite soldier now willingly lending Leareth the use of his body have to be LIKABLE and CONSIDERATE Vanyel does not have to like anything at all about the situation, but that's no excuse to be...rude...about it. He nods, as levelly as he can manage. 

Hmm. Leareth hadn't considered that in advance either. ...He's not sure he should have, when Karal explicitly hadn't been finding it useful to game out the conversation before having it, but he's a little surprised at himself that he didn't. 

- oh. It's probably mostly because he would, at this point, be both surprised and - genuinely some amount upset - if something happened to make this not work. Because it would feel like the gods winning again Mostly because he appreciates and admires Karal, and it would feel like giving up quite a lot of value, losing that. 

But it's in fact on the table, and Karal is right that if he wants to have his say in how it's framed and how they might talk about it later, it's probably a good idea to warn Vanyel now. (Leareth doesn't mind, it's not like it gives Vanyel any new or secret information, and also he isn't really thinking of this as something where he has the standing to tell Karal what he should or shouldn't say.) 

He feels a burst of warmth in Leareth's direction.  It's... been good, surprisingly so, no matter what they end up deciding tomorrow.  And he does feel like it'll be a shared decision, at least in some sense.  Their goals don't diverge at all on the subject, because he refuses to have his existence be a trap for someone who's been kind to him, and would count death a favor to avoid it.  But also - he expects Leareth to be the one to do most of the thinking, but he knows anything he has to say will be heard and considered, with something approaching inhuman fairness as well as surprisingly human affection, and this is... so important, somehow... that he can barely feel unhappy about the thought of dying.

Explaining all that to Vanyel might not even be possible, and he definitely shouldn't try, but he does want to say something.  For the first time in this conversation, he pauses and looks like he's not sure how to start.  "I did forget one more thing.  I... might not be alive, next time you see him.  I'm not sure I can explain to you why, or whether you want to know, but... I'm all right with this, and I don't want you to think otherwise, if it's what happens."

Oh. 

...Vanyel's first instinctive response is a burst of new respect, actually. He's not sure how Karal is framing it to himself - it makes sense that the whole way Karal relates to Leareth is very different from how Vanyel does, after their decade-long cautious dance - but the obvious interpretation is that Leareth isn't sure Karal can be trusted to be on his side – one assumes because Karal isn't sure, yet, that he can stand by and watch what Leareth is doing. 

It means that Karal isn't a man who would do anything and follow anyone if the alternative was dying. Which - makes sense. It sounds like he's been on the border long enough to have seen plenty of death, and - it's harder, after that, to be as deeply afraid of it, when it's something so nearby and thinkable.

He nods. "I - understand, I think. ...I mean, I'm sure I don't, but - as much as I can." I hope you're still here next time. He doesn't quite want to make those words any more real. It feels like holding himself open to more pain than he's ready to bear from this angle he didn't see coming. 

Leareth is very used to reading the nuances of Vanyel's words and expressions, and he's still not sure he knows what Vanyel is thinking, but - 

He believes you, that you are not afraid of dying, and - I think finds it reassuring? I am not sure why. Maybe it feels less like he - needs to pity you. Actually, he's curious now what Karal's read is on that complicated reaction. 

Also, yes, he would like a chance to talk to Vanyel, if Karal thinks he's done.