Weeping Cherry is momentarily stunned at the idea of custom drawbacks. She worries her lip.

That sounds really useful. Gosh.

 

Ah -- what kinds of things give points? Like, I can look at the existing drawbacks and get a bit of a sense, but I don't really think that tells me enough to come up with ideas. Is it roughly anything that you would need a power to take away? Or is it things that most people wouldn't like? Or that make it easier to find worlds where your conditions could be satisfied?

You can think of drawbacks as... places where most people wouldn't want something to happen, so it's a good idea to make it the default that it doesn't, but it's the sort of thing that might otherwise be happening, if someone had this much power and it wasn't so carefully controlled? A lot of the existing drawbacks are things caused by an excess of specialness, coming out in ways that most people don't want but some people don't mind as much. So you could think about ways that an excess of specialness could be less inconvenient for you personally than it might be for most people. I think trying to think about making it easier or harder to find worlds is probably going to be really hard because the things that make it easier or harder to find worlds are really not obvious.

Huh. Okay.

She twirls her pen a bit, looking out at the stars.

Does that imply that the Spirit does a lot of nudging by default, to fix those things? And if so, what happens if it stops nudging altogether?

She glances at a notification and then flips to the Drawbacks section.

Or is that what Realism does?

I think "the Spirit does a lot of nudging" implies a more active role than I think is really accurate, but yes, Realism does take away metanarrative protections in a relevant way. In a sense you could say that Realism turns these powers back into ones that are made of particles, although I think that's not quite exactly right. (They still work in worlds where particles don't exist, for one thing.)

She can't think of what to write. She goes with

What

and then crosses it out and tries

Oh no

but that isn't really better.

Finally, she settles on

I'm really not sure how to feel about that.

 

Are the prices intended to be ... Like, 

Is taking Realism equivalently bad to foregoing all the money powers, Dragon Fairy Elf Witch, Omniglot, and Anything You Can Do? Or are they just reflective of how much effort the Spirit has to put into them, without being a judgement about how good they'll be for the recipient?

I've been trying to roll with your explanation of the powers not being reductionist, but the concept that they could be and that not being explainable/comprehensible/understandable is a bonus is just ...

She flips to re-read the text of Realism and then the opening blurb about metanarrative guarantees.

And Realism talks about removing invisible synergies, which, if there aren't any mechanisms behind the powers why are there even

 

Can you give me some examples of things that go wrong if somebody picks Realism? Both in general and for someone with my tentative set of powers?

I think the story of Realism makes the most sense if I tell it like this...

Like I said before, the Spirit doesn't think in particles. But it can translate its power into those terms, sort of, with difficulty. And the difficulty is all in figuring out how to do it; once it's done that design work, it's not any extra work to offer the same thing to everyone. And some people... aren't ready to stop thinking in particles, or they really, really want more different powers, enough that it's worth giving up the protections. So it's something the Spirit can offer to those people. And the Spirit wants everyone to have the powers they want, and so it does offer, in case people want it.

But it's... uncomfortable, kind of, for the Spirit? And it's a little sad. To be... asked to be a tool, instead of a friend, I guess you could say.

From my perspective, the thing that goes wrong if somebody picks Realism is, sort of, everything? Their powers don't behave helpfully and follow their preferences anymore. They can have unintended consequences and negative effects and might conflict with each other or get in each other's way. If you took the tweaked version of Four Star Daydream I'm working on, and then took Realism, it would probably end really badly because there are lots and lots of ways to end up with everyone you meet in enormous debt to you that are bad instead of good, and Realism makes powers generally stop trying to tell the difference between good things and bad things.

She is so confused.

Which, like, is to be expected. It's a first contact situation. With a multidimensional notebook that doesn't share a common perspective on time.

She thought she understood what was going on, and it was weird but she could roll with it. But.

She does not think she actually understands. It is completely opaque to her why giving powers a mechanism would make them unable to tell the difference between good things and bad things. If giving something a mechanism makes it behave incorrectly, that is a problem with the specific mechanism and you should have made a different one.

Actually, the fundamental problem here is that it's completely opaque to her what 'making things run on particles' even means, because she's been taking on faith that there is some kind of alternative to that which makes sense.

She takes a deep breath, and does what she wishes she could have done at the time of many other misunderstandings in her life.

I don't think I understand. I want to try clearing my head and re-reading our previous conversation and see if that helps.

Is there anything you need while I do that? The next book in the series, maybe?

I would like the next book in the series!

I hope you're okay.

Yes, I'm fine. I think I just ...

Part of the thing is, that I do mostly think of things as being made out of smaller, simpler components. I'm really used to being able to think about things in those terms. And you've been pretty clear that these powers don't do that, so I was trying to take it on faith.

So being told that they could be reductionist but that isn't the ~best way to make them work just sort of highlights the conflict, and I feel like I can't really evaluate whether Realism is a good idea, or even what it does without understanding what it means for powers not to be 'made of particles' normally. (And also, separately, two different things you just said invalidate my hypothesis for what the Spirit even is)

 

I'm pretty sure you've tried to explain this multiple different ways, though. And sometimes being able to go back over what you've already heard, but with more context, makes it easier to understand what people mean. So I want to try doing that and see if it either makes things make sense, or at least gives me specific questions to ask.

 

Here, I'll give you the rest of the first quartet -- next up is Tris's Book.

She suits action to words, printing the rest of the Circle of Magic books into the notebook. And then goes back to add the parenthetical note in the space between paragraphs.

She flips back to the start of their discussion, and reads.

After a half-hour or so, she catches up with what she just wrote.

Okay, I'm back. I guess we're circling back to metaphysics.

When you said "What is most real to the Spirit isn't tiny pieces of things that fit together like neat little puzzles into bigger pieces that fit together into a world. What is most real to the Spirit is people, their hopes and dreams and thoughts and feelings and the ways they understand the world around them and the things they want and the things they find touching or important or beautiful," I think that didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time. With more context, though, I think it gives me some good guesses.

I want to ask some clarifying questions to try to pin things down, if that's alright.

 

Is it the case that:

A) Some universes reachable by the Spirit run on reductionist physics and some directly on people and their experiences

B) All universes reachable by the Spirit run on people, but some of those people tell stories about their world being made out of reductionist physics

C) All universes reachable by the Spirit can be viewed as run on reductionist physics or as run on people and their experiences, but the latter view is easier for the Spirit.

D) Some combination of the above

E) Something not on this list

 

Which of those is closest to right? Why isn't it exactly right?

Thank you for the books! ♡

I think A is true but if you are trying to understand what I mean when I talk about the Spirit and you think A is the answer to your question I'm concerned that you're on the wrong track. C is less true than A in terms of what makes sense to say about universes, but something close to C might be the answer to your question much more than A is. I'm not sure.

Weeping Cherry lets out a brief cry of frustration and her head thunk back into the chair for a moment.

So the thing I was trying to distinguish with A vs C was whether there is an underlying mechanical reality that I'm going to be leaving behind by accepting these powers and traveling with them, or whether looking at things as being 'stories' or 'physics' is like a change of reference frame where they're both valid views of reality, with one being better than the other for some purposes and vice versa.

That's an important question to try and get at, because if this universe were reductionist but the universes I could be sent to weren't, then that implies powers working better in those worlds by being person-based is maybe more about the power fitting the right level of abstraction for the world, whereas the latter option suggests the powers working better by being person-based is more a matter of limits on the Spirit's ability to describe things correctly in the reductionist reference frame.

 

... which was trying to get at my central confusion over what Realism does from a different angle.

 

Maybe a less confusing question that tries to get at the same thing is: why does running on reductionist physics make powers less able to track what would be good or not? Is it that the Spirit can't make reductionist mechanisms as well, that running on reductionist mechanisms gives the powers less information to make judgements with, that person-based mechanisms import more cleanly to a broad variety of worlds, or something else?

(Meta note: I keep asking questions in the form of coming up with plausible alternatives because I hope that conveys to you what my hypothesis space looks like, generally, which might help. If a different question format would work better, please let me know)

I think it's all of those things, and probably also more things than that?

If your powers had to be as good at telling good things from bad things and adapting to very strange situations as the Spirit could normally make them, while also working in the particles way instead of the Spirit's way, they would have to be people. Very well-informed smart people who care a lot about you. I don't think there's any other way to do it, or if there is, you have to be better at particles than the Spirit is. Particles are really not the Spirit's strong suit. And I think it would probably not be something most people wanted, to have magic powers that were also people.

She produces a strangled little laugh.

Yeah, okay. Fair enough.

I don't know of any reason why building things that smart that aren't people shouldn't be possible, but I certainly can't do it either.

 

I guess that's a pretty convincing argument that Realism is a bad idea, but it does sort of raise the question of why powers built out of thoughts and feelings don't end up being people too. Do you happen to know the answer to that?

And, as a broader point, I guess it also raises the question of, if the Spirit can't build sufficiently smart reductionist things that aren't people, but can build sufficiently smart thoughts-and-feelings things that aren't people, is that because viewing worlds in terms of stories is ~fundamentally simpler?

(In the sense that intelligence is being able to predict what comes next in a complex world, so if something less person-like can predict just as well from a different frame, it suggests that that frame is less complex)

I think...

There are a lot of ways that seeing things the way the Spirit sees them can make things easier, especially if people are what you care about, and especially if you want to work across a lot of different worlds that might have different particles or no particles. But I don't think it's necessarily true that it makes everything simpler all the time, as opposed to making most things simpler a lot of the time depending on what you're trying to do? I don't know a lot about particles though so I could be wrong.

As for why things built by the Spirit using its natural power can do a lot more without being people, the way I'd put it would be that when you're working with particles you need to know things in order to know them and do things in order to do them, but when you're working with the Spirit you don't always. But I think you will just have more questions if I say that. I guess it's sort of like... when you're the Spirit, you can know the answers to questions without having to check? And so the Spirit can make things that work based on knowing things, without having to be the kind of things that can know them?

... I'm going to guess that you still have more questions.

...

Yes, I now have additional questions.

Weeping Cherry stares out at the stars for a few moments.

I bet if I try to ask how that, like, works you won't really be able to elaborate?

Does this mean that the Spirit can solve PSPACE-hard problems?

 

... actually, hard pivot because this is important: does that mean that the Spirit can create powers that can see backward in time?

Specifically, we've been vainly wishing for a way to do FTL or time travel so that we can get enough information about the past to run a simulation of our universe backwards to try and save all the people who died before we got fixity devices rolled out. But we haven't found any way to do that.

If the Spirit can make powers that can have information without having to get it, and I could use that to get a power that could be used for resurrection -- either a straight resurrection power, or a pastwatching power, or a timetravel power, or an FTL teleportation power, that would be really important to me, because it would mean that it isn't too late to save them.

She takes a deep breath, and then lets it go. It's too soon to get her hopes up.

Is that something you can do?

That's more the sort of thing you could do by traveling the multiverse learning magic. But unless something really strange is going on with your world, and in worlds without magic it usually isn't, it should be very possible with the magic you find out there! A lot of magic systems have resurrection or pastwatching and it's really rare for a world without magic to have a hard time with those.

If you want to be more sure than that, though, I can think about how to make a power for it. It might be expensive; it's not the kind of thing the Spirit usually does. But it sounds like it's really important to you, so I want you to have it!

It is really important!

But also it makes sense that finding magic out in the multiverse to do it is an option.

 

Hmm ...

Is it less the kind of thing that the Spirit does because it's not about me being special and powerful, exactly? Would it be easier to create a power that did something like ensure that I will find magic that works for it out there somewhere, even if I don't start with it? That seems more like something that would make me special.

It's hard to explain exactly... I think I might have something, though, let me see.

Name: The Rescuer - Cost: 8 ☐
If someone is dead who would want to be alive again, and you set your heart on returning them, you will find a way. It may have costs or difficulties or take a long time, but you will find it, and it will work.

Oh, that's wonderful! That's exactly what I wanted. Oh, wow.

That's definitely going to eat into my points, though. I think I'm at zero with the current draft.

A notification pops up in her HUD.

... except that there's an existing 8 point drawback, which I didn't remember because I skimmed the drawbacks. And nobody else pointed out because I was still fine on points.

I'll take They'll Know to offset The Rescuer, then!

 

I want to finish our conversation about the Spirit's capabilities, but also this is going to cause a party. There was already going to be a party, but they had it planned for after we had finalized the details. Having a solution to something we thought might never be solved is going to cause an immediate party, though.

Would you like to come? I know parties aren't for everyone, and it is perfectly okay for you to choose to go or not to go depending on what is comfortable for you. Or if you want to go, but are nervous about it we can work out accommodations.

Oh my! I'm not sure I've been to a party before.

I'm really glad people are so happy about this!

If you want to go to the party and bring me, I think I would be okay with that! Maybe you could print drawings of the party on my pages? I'm not sure how I'd participate otherwise. I think I would get really overwhelmed if a lot of people tried to talk to me at once.

That's very understandable! I sometimes get overwhelmed in large crowds too. This party will be okay for me because it will mostly be members of my self-tree and our loved ones, but still.

I can absolutely capture pictures for you, though! If that's the limit of how much you want to participate, that's fine. But I could also give you a transcript of what's being said near me, and relay things that you write to people, or get you a voice synthesizer.

And I don't know if you enjoy having anything other than ink on you, but I could get you some punch and you could absorb it?

I agree there's not really a good way to let you participate in the singing and dancing, though.

She pauses to snap a picture of the first other people arriving in their sliver of park. The notebook may be very friendly, but the professional worriers still want to keep her out of the inner solar system, just in case.

The people mostly have a similar face to Weeping Cherry with occasional variations in the nose area, although there's a variety of skin, hair, and eye colors. They're wearing mostly dresses and the occasional pair of loose, swishy pants in bright solid colors. Once more than five people are in the area, name tags float above their heads.

Right now, the first people to arrive are focusing on expanding the park. They turn the existing chunk into the center of a large, round room with a domed ceiling. Tables and chairs ring the walls, with space between the grass and the tables for dancing. Fairy lights wink into existence in the air above the venue.

Here's a picture of people arriving to set up. Is it alright if I put you in my pocket and use my forb to keep talking to you?

Yes, that's fine. I'm nervous about transcription, though, and I don't want a voice synthesizer.

I don't think I would enjoy absorbing punch the way you would enjoy drinking it but I could try one drop just to see what it's like!

Okay, let me get you some to try, then!

She makes a kangaroo pouch on the front of her dress, and slides the notebook into it, before walking over to the freshly appearing tables of food. She materializes a glass for herself and an eyedropper for the notebook, and takes a few milliliters of punch with it.

She spreads the notebook open again suspended in the air by the table and sends her a picture of the food and the eyedropper full of punch.

Cheers! I'll put the drop here:     ⃝

And then she matches actions to words, squeezing a careful drop onto the notebook.

Neat! That's not very much like ink at all! I don't think I want another one but that was very interesting, thank you. And the pictures are fun!