Vanyel…is maybe just not going to acknowledge that last part in any way. What are you supposed to say to that.

“I don’t think it’s the same at all,” he says. “Even if someone’s eventually going to die of old age in their bed, I - it’s not like that makes killing them not murder.”

"Valdemar does have the death penalty. Among those they merely exile, over half die; no small number of whom become bandits in Rethwellan and are executed by that government. Your soldiers kill in war. I'm just doing the equivalent of eating the bodies afterwards. It isn't pretty, but it's not the main problem."

“....Um.” All right, Vanyel doesn’t have any more of an idea how to respond to that and possibly ignoring it is the best route.

He’s tempted to say ‘well, they could just not become bandits’ but that feels like…the wrong answer, somehow, he isn’t sure why.

“Fine. I’m not convinced blood-magic isn’t much worse than just - killing soldiers in war - but even if we say it is, I still think most people don’t want to be murdered? And if you’re so immortal and smart, I don’t know why you haven’t found a better way to solve people starving than by murdering a lot of them.”

"I don't know what mortals could make of themselves without the gods in their way, but while the gods live they will not permit us to build the technologies and tools we'd need to end starvation. My long-term plans to fight the gods involve rearranging countries and building empires. If there is a clever way to rearrange countries and build empires without murdering a lot of people, it takes more cleverness than I have. I did try -"

"Well, I think I tried. My memories of myself from a thousand years earlier are admittedly vague. But I think I vaguely remember trying a couple of times and the gods stomping me flat. And it doesn't seem in character for myself to have become a Dark Lord without spending a couple of lifetimes trying the path of an Ethical Lord first. I admit, I don't actually remember it, at this point, but I'm sure I must have."

"Personally I'd buy that he just went Dark Lord straight out.  But if that didn't work after a couple of centuries, he would give the Ethical Lord thing a fair shot before going back Dark again."

…Is Mornelithe going to argue with that? Or acknowledge it at all? Apparently not! Vanyel scowls at him. “Is it true that in the north they call you ‘Falconsbane’? Because that kind of sounds like a Dark Lord sort of name.”

"Oh my gods do not get him started. He heard about the 'Demonsbane' thing and magebolted some poor falcon off a tree, then spent the next week bragging about how he had defeated it in glorious single combat, and made us change his name to 'Mornelithe Falconsbane' on all the documents and hired bards to -"

"And I, for one, would claim that this is evidence against my being truly evil. A truly evil man would call himself Soulmuncher. Per my general theme, 'falcons fear him' isn't really all that bad if you spend a few seconds thinking about it."

…Well, Vanyel cannot in fact argue with that, he had been about to say that it sounds sort of pathetic.

He takes a deep breath. “So, er, I think the problem here is that - most people who straight-up call themselves Dark Lords, and then say they’re doing it for the greater good, are lying? …I think, I haven’t exactly met a lot of Dark Lords, but - you’re obviously going to want to convince me not to kill you or die trying, you can say whatever you want, and if you’re really immortal then you must have a lot of practice at being convincing.” He folds his arms. “Words are cheap. Actions speak louder.”

"I do have a lot of practice, and I expected you'd ask that. But before I give my answer, I want you to appreciate the difficulty of what you're predictably asking of me, Vanyel Demonsbane. You want me to have spoken through my actions, in a way that you can verify right here and now, while I was covertly running an empire-building operation. I could tell you about the job benefits among my Dark Servants, but it would just be words. I could tell you how kingdoms I've meddled in are better-off for having their tariffs and guild monopolies repealed by somebody with the tiniest understanding of economics. It would be just words. You want it to be the case that I've already acted, in a way that's informative about my personality and what sort of person I am, in a way that you've already observed, even as I was trying to avoid coming to Haven's notice; you want that to already be the case, as of the time of your arriving at this pass carved of ice."

Vanyel glares at him. “I think if you want to invade my kingdom and you also want to convince me you’re right, that’s on you.”

"But if I am right, then convincing you of that is worth something to you; I can have already put you to a little inconvenience, over it, and it would in the end have been a favor to you."

The logic is…twisty but actually kind of holds together? Vanyel is pretty displeased about this fact. It seems like a bad idea to let himself be convinced by anything Mornelithe says to him, but…at the same time, surely it’s also wrong to decide from the start what he thinks and refuse to listen? He’s confused, and frustrated about it, and still has no idea what to actually say.

“Hmm,” he says noncommittally.

"And so, Vanyel, I now confess that I've been manipulating you for nearly your entire life.  Just so you can have had some experience of what sort of person I am, see.  Virtually everything inexplicable that has ever happened to you has been my doing.  Well, or the doing of the gods.  In some cases both.  I do apologize about the incident where your family priest seduced your own mother, that was a plan I'd meant to call off but the gods caused my messenger to end up marrying a Rethwellan countess instead.  And that whole plan with the Linneas family being brought down by being caught in an embarrassing public orgy with Abyssal tentacles was not supposed to happen until later, I had really thought Vedric Mavelan was a more reliable person than that.  But Karse sending that team of shaych priests to seduce you?  That fleeing team of sexy schoolteachers that formed the backbone of Haven's new educational system?  The erotic ritual you uncovered for expanding the Web?  You thought it was the work of the gods, but it was really me, Mornelithe!"

Vanyel stares at him.

That’s - for one man to have done all of those things, involving operations in multiple countries… Well, on the one hand it’s completely terrifying. If Mornelithe did that much preparation over that many years then there’s no way Vanyel can win here.

Or, of course, it could just be a lie, it’s not very meaningful that Mornelithe knows about those events. They were rather, well, dramatic. (Though on reflection, it kind of does feel like the kind of thing that would be…out of character…for the gods to engage in. He apparently hadn’t noticed that before.)

“And what kind of person were you trying to demonstrate being, exactly?" he says. "Taking down Linneas with a tentacle orgy isn’t exactly honorable. Do you just - enjoy manipulating people’s lives from a distance in ways you think are funny?”

"For the first three hundred years I knew this man, I would ask him, now and then, to consider what kind of impression he was making on people. And every time without fail, he would answer -"

"An honest one."

"Yes. That."

"But it is an honest one, and what it says is that I enjoy making people's lives more surreal, but always in ways intended to leave them ultimately better off.  Linneas could not actually be permitted to remain in control of the Heartstone buried far beneath their territory; had it not been drained, some, it would have been a resource for the Star-Eyed to use, or simply detonate.  The same holds true if you'd needed a Heartstone to expand your own Web; the Star-Eyed could then have destroyed Haven at will."

Vanyel frowns thoughtfully (and then tries to look less thoughtful, he doesn’t want Mournelithe to get the impression that he’s seriously listening to this, even if…well, he is kind of doing that.)

“And having the priest seduce my mother? What was that possibly meant to accomplish, aside from amusing you?”

"Getting your father to stop listening to priests as much, particularly that kind of priest; I had a replacement lined up with a more reasonable attitude towards shay'a'chern. I also pointed Melena at Jervis instead of at you, right after you returned from Haven. And arranged for you to run across Orthillin. If you line up the first dozen or so strange things that happened to you, by people and places, the first seven ones I was responsible for spell out M.O.R.NE.L.I.THE."

Vanyel finds himself counting on his fingers. Looks uncertain for a moment, and is about to raise his head in triumph when he realizes that no, actually, you definitely could describe the incident in question as about Randi rather than Kilchas.

He lifts his head and…has no idea what to say because he does not want Mornelithe to have the satisfaction of Vanyel being impressed.

“You have a juvenile sense of humor,” he manages after a moment, which isn’t even a very good comeback but he’s said it now.

"Oh, come on.  Is that all I get?  I worked for twenty years on this."

“I feel like you could have spent a lot of energy on helping people have better lives instead of scheming to make my life surreal in ways that would spell out your name.”

"Tried that sort of thing earlier in my life.  It all fades.  It all goes away.  The only thing that actually does matter is somehow breaking the hold that gods and Foresight have over Velgarth.  And the weapon I've chosen for that, this time... is trust."