"Herald Vanyel, Demonsbane, Hero of Stony Tor, imagine for a second that there were some Valdemaran soldiers in Iftel, and they were captured by Chelish soldiers, and raped and tortured to death. And you went angrily to the Chelish government and demanded an apology. Would 'oh, sorry, that's just not a big deal here, we're not used to thinking about it, it seems like you want us to apologize for some rules we had no way of knowing existed' be a compelling response? Or would you wish it acknowledged that some wrongs are not hard to notice, and that failing to notice them is a deficiency even when explained by an appalling upbringing?"

"- Er, I think we're still talking at cross-purposes here? In the context of how Velgarth countries - in this time period and region, at least - approach diplomacy, I wouldn't even consider responding to - that - by demanding an apology. It's not like it'd help the Valdemaran soldiers, after the fact, and it - well, we wouldn't expect it to accomplish anything for the future either." 

He pauses. Frowns into the distance. 

"- This is about Law, isn't it. The principle that Golarion has, which is...apparently just objectively measurable as a property? And generalizable to gods as well as humans?" 

"I think that is part of it," the man says dryly. "If that happened in a war between Cheliax and one of our neighbors, they would demand - and we would give - an apology. Because there are agreements that we have made, across nations that misunderstand and often hate each other, to rule out things that no one benefits from. Your world seems to be entirely missing the concept."

...Vanyel is pretty sure it's not the entire world that's missing it. He doesn't really want to bring up Leareth right now, though.

"I see how that would be frustrating," he says quietly. "I - also think that it might well benefit our world if we could develop those kinds of agreements. - Just out of curiosity, to the extent that you can give entire countries an alignment in your system, what did you previously think Valdemar's alignment was?" 

"Our mistaken understanding was that you were a Lawful country - one that makes these agreements, and holds it sacred to abide by them, and that on learning that they'd enabled a grave wrong by another world's system of laws of war, would express intent to develop together laws that will prevent such atrocities in the future."

This is an absurdly self-indulgent question to be asking, and only vaguely related to any of the topics at hand, but - 

"- And what alignment do I read as? Er, on both of the axes?" 

"You don't read as Lawful. You do read as Good, but it is quite apparent that Good without Law does not prevent any atrocities,as it resorts to declaring that technically you don't even really know if they're happening."

Vanyel is unperturbed. He's very good at that; he's had so much practice. 

"Asmodeus reads as Evil, right? And Cheliax follows that. What - does that mean, to you? ...And I am also curious what you would say that your Lawful Good allies in Golarion consider that it means." 

"That's right, though I could quibble with your translation. Evil is the term for people who evaluate their actions largely by their effects on themselves, and Good for those that evaluate their actions largely by their effects on others. Both can easily, taken to the wrong extremes, create societies that are deeply unpleasant to live in; alternately, both can lead to ones that do all right for themselves. Herald-Mage Savil said you had decided there was no need to communicate with us or take our preferences into account as we are Evil, which I will say is a very classic way in which Good ideologies do immense harm."

"...Hmm. Regarding what Savil said, I suspect there's some mistranslation going on there, and that what she actually meant is that Valdemar has limited trust with Cheliax currently. In your world, 'trust' would - probably be mostly about Law, I'm guessing? But since, as we've noted, Velgarth doesn't have the kinds of agreed-on international standards that Golarion takes for granted, over here it's...a mix of Law and Good? And, er, I should point out that the word your translating magic is mapping that concept onto is - not exactly one with the exact meaning you said. It's not contradictory or anything, just - in Valdemaran, 'evil' generally means - a person who hurts others. And - when we interrogated Leareth, he said he thought that Asmodeus tortures people. Maybe in Golarion - or in Cheliax, at least - that's considered much better that ceasing to exist forever? But here it's not." 

Melody keeps reading the diplomat she's able to reach, and makes another attempt to get past the other two diplomats' shields. 

"You think it is worse to suffer briefly than to cease to exist? What a fascinating philosophy. I am confused about why you don't all commit suicide."

- Vanyel makes a face. He tries very hard not to, but he can't quite manage to hide his reaction. 

Melody is also making a face, not that anyone can see it. 

Vanyel finds his voice. "Er, it's possible we disagree on the definition of 'briefly'? ...Anyway, I think this may be besides the point. Right now, Valdemar wants to understand what Cheliax wants and expects of us, and figure out which components of that we...actually have any control over providing." 

"We'd like you not to kidnap our soldiers. When your allies kidnap our soldiers, we'd like you not to actively participate in enabling this or in hiding it from us. When you learn of our soldiers being kidnapped by the minions of various gods in this world, we'd like you to communicate this to us, as we'd communicate to you if we noticed daemons from Abaddon eating your peoples' souls.

We'd like you, if you want to claim diplomatic benefits from the fact you say there's no one true way and that people can worship as they like, to let us set up our church and make the case for our faith to your citizens. We'd like you to tell us what you know about the magic your slave was under and how she escaped, so that we can endeavor to find her and determine what, if anything, the Star-Eyed really did to her. And we would like you to acknowledge that Valdemar, like it or not, is now part of an international community, and in that international community your recent actions are appalling, and that if you want to be a member in good standing going forward, you will have to do better."

"Thank you for clarifying that. It's - good to at least be on the same page about how you're expecting this to go." 

Vanyel ducks his head. "...You'd have kidnapped one of our soldiers, though. Your people would have kidnapped me, for sure, if by some chance it'd been me up there instead of Leareth." 

"That's not true. We have confirmation from our soldiers who took Leareth prisoner that before doing so they had confirmation via mindreading that he and his unit were not Valdemaran, which they'd suspected already from the fact they were camouflaged, hidden, and not at a guard post. They had orders not to engage Valdemar's forces, and if they'd accidentally done so, they would certainly have released the soldier at once with apologies, and been punished for it. Things might have gone differently if you'd been in Iftel and fighting, as they would then have presumed Valdemar had joined the war, and it might have taken some time to unravel the true situation. But under the circumstances that actually obtained, our soldiers acted appropriately; it has already been reviewed."

"- I would like to believe you on that. It'd be...simpler - a better story. But - hmm, I guess another cultural divide here that I should point out is that - well, over here in Velgarth we can't measure this 'Lawful' property. And so we're inclined to...correlate it with some things you'd probably call Good versus Evil. And - certain facts that Leareth was able to tell us about Cheliax, make us a lot more dubious that you're negotiating in what we would consider genuine good faith. ...And - speaking for myself, right now, I haven't synced up with the King on this - the fact that Cheliax is our first contact with Golarion is...not something that makes it sound more appealing to join this 'international community' over there." 

"Do you want to cast your Truth Spell again?"

"- Sure, all right. Tran?" 

Herald Tantras does not want to be here at ALL but he can cast a Truth Spell, sure. 

"Chelish soldiers have orders not to engage Valdemaran soldiers or civilians. We know of no instances of them doing so. Officers who ordered an engagement with Valdemaran civilians would be punished and likely relieved of their command. When a Chelish officer arrived at our base informing us that he'd taken a prisoner north of Valdemar, one of the first questions asked in his debriefing was whether, at the time the person had been captured, he had been confident they were not Valdemaran. He said that he was. He said that his soldiers had mindread one of Leareth's associates and learned that they were an unaffiliated nongovernmental group, and that the decision to capture Leareth was made after that was communicated. His honesty was verified. I sincerely believe that if he'd run into a group of Valdemaran soldiers, he would have retreated as per his orders. I sincerely believe that other Chelish scout groups operating outside Iftel's borders will behave similarly."

The Truth Spell halo doesn't falter. Interesting. 

"...Well, that's - good to know. Thank you."

Vanyel shifts his weight, unclasps and re-clasps his hands in front of him.

"I - think that if you're hoping for an alliance with Valdemar based on this sort of Law, that's - something we probably also want? But you may have to bear with us while we wrap our heads around how Golarion does things. ...And, of course, we're going to want to verify this against other countries in Golarion. Particularly the ones with different alignments that are nonetheless allied with Cheliax." 

"It makes sense for an alliance to take time. It is our hope that the other commitments you want should take less. There are missionaries who will be travelling through Valdemar on their way to Hardorn in a few days; I trust that they will be unharassed?"