Yeah, I told Nayoki to tell them that if in their professional judgement it was necessary you can tie me up. Though I mostly said that because it'll get them to make faces. They can't work with people like me. 

- which is why she thinks they shouldn't conquer a country full of people like her, but that's another matter.

:Do you think that Aroden could work with people like you? Because Cheliax was His country, and he is the one who actually wants to take it back from Asmodeus: 

(...And Aroden is also the one who is bizarrely similar to Leareth, but that thought can just hang there, implicit in the Mindspeech overtones.) 

I've been thinking about it. I dunno. Maybe. Better than paladins could. He didn't - kick up a fuss about me and you. He gave me a headband. I - he can't give everyone a headband, metaphorically speaking, but if he could he'd be fine. Asmodeus taught us to pick winners.

:- Yes. That - is one of the values I share with Asmodeus and not with the native Velgarth gods, I think? That - highly functional systems and countries, which can point large-scale capabilities at - whichever goal they choose - is better than not that?: 

Law. She smiles somewhat bitterly because even under Aroden, defection in wartime would be punished with death; that’s just minimally necessary for pointing a large group of people at a high stakes goal. And she stopped being that - why exactly? 

Because it benefitted her. But somehow it feels like there should be more there, even though she thinks there isn’t actually.

:For what it is worth, when I was in charge of the Eastern Empire here in Velgarth - which, I think, was a highly functional and goal-oriented system, albeit one that was pointed at goals I could not necessarily choose... Anyway. When I was in charge there, the system did not punish people by condemning them to death.  Because that would have been a waste of resources?:

Pause.

:...Also it may be relevant that mind-control magic is much cheaper in our magic system: 

That seems relevant. In ours, wizards are expensive to hold. But even without that - if someone doesn’t want to die, you don’t want defecting to be better for their survival than fighting. It’s bad incentives.

:I - think I want people to have incentives to...figure out what is true about the world...and respond to it appropriately?: 

Even if it’s actually in their interests to betray you you presumably don’t want them doing that!

:....If there existed an entity that was just, in fact, cleverer than me, and also - aligned on what matters.... I think I would want them to first try communication - that is also what I tried first, with the gods of Velgarth. - But if they were smarter than me and - knew that I was wrong.... I. just - coming from the other side, I have hurt people for that reason? I am not sure if I would want to count it as a betrayal, since I tried to avoid making promises I could not keep, but nonetheless. I - cannot dis-endorse that algorithm?: 

Okay, but most people do not  share your values and would be betraying yours for theirs. And you want them incentivized not to do that. And most people who think they’re smarter than you are wrong. And - if I were considering whether to try to betray this invasion to Asmodeus, would you really want me thinking I have nothing to lose since you won’t hurt me even if I fail?

She’s not in fact considering that at all. She has completely blocked off thinking about the war at all. Other people will do things and it’s nothing to do with her. 

:- I think part of the entire concept of Good is that...many more people would share my - our? - values, if they - felt safe enough to think about it, and had the time and space to do so?: 

I mean, you can raise kids Good on purpose. I don’t think it’s true that they turn out Good if you aren’t specifically aiming for that. And she isn’t sure you should want them to turn out like that, but that’s a different problem. 

:I think you could say the same for Law? Or - just - general tendency to even try to achieve goals?:

Yeah. You can push kids any which way, really. But Good isn't really one of my favorite ways to push them.

Lawful Neutral might be fine I guess. I - I don't want Cheliax to be conquered and probably everyone I care about will die but if it has to happen Aroden's the person most entitled to do it. And at least he'll want what he's getting. The paladins - wouldn't. 

:- What do you mean? About - why the paladins would not want it? And…why is that important here?:

Well. If you’re going to conquer a bunch of people then they belong to you, after that. And if you want them for something, then, fine. But - you mentioned how the paladins are very upset about me - they don’t want us. They love us because they’re obligated to but they don’t want us and if they won us I don’t think they’d know what to do with us.

You don’t really know what to do with me but you do want me. And if you had Cheliax I think you wouldn’t - get too hung up on whether everyone in it was Good -

…Is that right? Does he want Carissa - what does ‘wanting’ even mean…

:- I mean, no? I do not intrinsically care about what Golarion’s death god thinks of you, or others? …Except instrumentally, since Golarion has true afterlives and I think that being tortured is worse than not being…:

Leareth is pretty sure that he’s failing to address at least half of what Carissa was actually asking, but he is also way too tired to clarify.

I think… I would expect a paladin to say that people ought to raise their children Good because fighting Evil is so important. And I would expect you to say that your plan is to beat Hell and  that people can mostly be Evil if they want as long as it doesn’t get in the way of that, but that there are specific things they can do if they want to speed it up. And that seems all right. 

:…I mean, my plan is much broader than conquering Hell? I did not even know that Hell existed until very recently:

Well the other parts of your plan don’t seem very upsetting at all so I care less how aggressive you are about making people believe in them.

Nod.

:- My current inclination is to just go try to do the Atonement and see if it works:

Nod. I guess it's useful, if you're working for Iomedae. 

She's so scared. She's trying not to be. Chill and uncomplicated, chill and uncomplicated.

:- I am not going to hurt you either way?: 

Leareth suspects that saying that won’t help, but he doesn’t know what else to say instead.

You'll fit right in, she says dryly, because she doesn't know what else to say either.