This post has the following content warnings:
some dath ilani are more Chaotic than others, but
Next Post »
« Previous Post
+ Show First Post
Total: 4482
Posts Per Page:
Permalink

The researcher's best guess is that it's the Lawful Neutral deity Yaezhing, worshipped in a small coastal country in distant Tian Xia. He has copied from other texts some pictures of Yaezhing's symbols, and they're not a perfect match for the illusion that appears on peoples' foreheads when Keltham casts his fairness spells but they're not far off, and it's noted that these are from adventure memories by Avistani adventurers who passed through the country, so the likeliest explanation for the mismatch is poor recollection. One of the adventure memoirs claims confidently that Yaezhing is Lawful Evil but that memoir has a number of errors.

 For completeness he's also included some other symbols that are approximately as good a match, with notes on why the relevant deities were disqualified - this symbol is a good match but the god is a nature god who usually takes the form of volcanos and doesn't pick clerics. This symbol is an acceptable match but the god is a Chaotic Evil demon lord of the Abyss, best known for the time he led a bloody campaign to wipe out all the descendants of Azlant. This symbol is associated with an ancient Azlant god thought to be dead. And then gods without symbols but which otherwise seem like good matches: Kofusachi is attested to have truth-telling and trading spells, which is incredibly promising, but he's Chaotic Good - his domain is something like abundance and the state of resources where they are so plentiful one needn't be bothered to charge for them. Possibly he's hoping Keltham will bring that state to Golarion? No symbols similar to Keltham's are attested but a page of further information on him has been included all the same. Abadar is a Lawful Neutral god of commerce but his symbols are extremely well known, they're these, and his first and second-circle spells offered to his clerics are also well known, they're spells for ship navigation and preventing goods from rotting. Just in case he stopped by a church of Abadar in Westcrown to ask if Abadar has a lesser known aspect or associations with this symbol, but they didn't recognize either the symbol or the spell. 

With that established here's all that is known about Yaezhing. It's not very much. One of the memoirs has only a single passage, copied in full into the report; it claims that the people of this small coastal country live in great prosperity despite their lack of fertile land, for their god grants them freely knowledge of truth, and so they all trust each other and trade fairly, and mock the peoples of larger cities who by necessity trust no one and must stand watch at night against thieves. One of the others gives Yaezhing's divine realm, Setsendu, in Axis, and a domain of his as Justice; the third is the one that claims Yaezhing is Evil, and that Setsendu is in Hell, but agrees that Justice is a domain of his, as are Cooperation and Trust. Idols of him are drawn with bulging eyes, a long face, and a red beard, but that's indicative of practically nothing, especially with the gods that aren't ascended humans. There are vanishingly few books on him in Avistan; the author says he's reached out unsuccessfully to other libraries, and there's probably mentions buried in some of their books but it'll take a long time to find them.

 

And the page on Kofusachi, just in case it's actually Him somehow: Chaotic Good god of prosperity and abundance, mentions (meticulously copied, not very detailed) of trading and truth-telling spells, primarily worshipped in Tianjing, called The Laughing God, holy symbol is reportedly a 'string of seven coins'.

Permalink

Keltham reads through it all slowly; there's a lot of unfamiliar terms here, and he is more than usually on the lookout for things that don't make sense.  That Golarion itself, does not make much sense, is the central problem there; but still, Keltham is looking, and noticing the many small confusions.

Kofusachi:  Has the trading and truth spells.  Doing coordination correctly could look Chaotic to the locals if there's a norm, a single uniform way of doing things, that isn't correct coordination.  The god of coordination could look like Good, if, say, good general levels of social coordination are a public-good, and public-goods are what everyone unselfishly wants everyone else to have?  The god of coordination could be mistaken for a god of prosperity and abundance, if people didn't understand what was producing the prosperity and abundance.

Yaezhing:  If there's gaslighting going on, then Yaezhing is obviously the god they want him to believe in.  Yaezhing hasn't had much impact on his people, for being the god of coordination; but then, coordination isn't quite the same concept as industry, and no god anywhere has granted Golarion real technology and science.

...he knows too little of gods to know which parts are confusing because they're fiction, and which parts are truth that confuses the alien with the wrong priors.

Keltham will keep this document, obviously, and later check it against other archival-type writings to see if a noticeable difference of style between other archived writings, and these supposedly variously sourced writings, suggests a LARP writing team having frantically produced them overnight.

Also the words 'Good', 'Evil', 'Lawful', and 'Chaotic' are repeated often enough for Keltham to notice that the person who granted him Share Language (Taldane) last night probably had a slightly different concept of those terms than Carissa?  'Good' seems innocent, naive, an object of a kind of contempt that has little currency in dath ilan; Carissa’s ‘Good’ sounded more like dangerous fanatics out to optimize you even if you tell them not to.  'Evil' feels like it has undertones of power and sadism in a way that seems reminiscent of some things Carissa said in the cuddleroom, but in a sort of creepy icky gloating status-laden way; 'Lawful' has undertones a lot like 'Evil'; 'Chaotic' sounds like dangerous insanity and wild predators.  The connotations are subtle and hard to describe; the connotations already hammered into Keltham's brain yesterday are competing with them.  He already knows those words of Taldane, or his brain thinks it does.

Permalink

Keltham goes hunting for the scholar, finding him in a nearby sitting-room.

"I hope it's not too much of a surprise or an imposition if I say that most of what I need to understand this is background material," Keltham says.  "For one thing, I was previously under the impression there were a lot fewer gods than this seems to imply, and that they were all global rather than regional entities.  What are the numbers like in total?"

Permalink

"We don't know. There are fourteen gods with well-established churches on this continent; most of them also have presence in Tian Xia. Then there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of more minor entities that create only a few clerics at a time. Those are often geographically bounded, possibly just because if their gods are small they can't pay attention to a very large share of the plane. We believe there are many gods who never pick clerics. Gods are sort of only a human category anyway, for 'entities that can cleric us'; Pharasma and, say, Yaezhing, are going to be very different entities. It's said that there are things next to which Pharasma is small, and we are preserved because they're not paying attention, but no one has any proof beyond visions they had."

Permalink

"What does it mean that Yaezhing is a geographically bounded god?"

Keltham is trying one of the first Deliberately Deceptive Maneuvers he's done outside of Diplomacy / LARPs, Assuming The Premise.  Keltham has noticed confusion about Yaezhing being Tian-only and mainly about a small coastal country, because smaller gods can't pay attention widely, and that god managing to pick up his prayer in Cheliax.  Rather than asking explicitly about this and giving the scholar a chance to correct an unintended implication of a lie, Keltham is instead asking how Yaezhing is bounded rather than whether Yaezhing is bounded.

Permalink

Aspexia Rugatonn needed to check over Cayden Cailean's oracle anyways.

As long as she has to visit, goes the reasoning, she might as well visit Keltham right after he gets morning spells and run Spell Gauge over him to avoid further surprises.

As long as she's doing that, she might as well use her personal Detect Thoughts tool, which adopts the user's strength for purposes of determining Will saves of the target, on Keltham.

Aspexia informs the agent of what Keltham is trying.  She doesn't bother explaining who's sending the message; the agent doesn't need the distraction.  Also, somebody had better have been on the ball about matching writing styles very perfectly with real archives, or else they're going to have to fake all the other archives Keltham ever looks at.

Permalink

"Generally, a geographically bounded god's interventions happen within a specific region, and most of their attention is allocated there. To pick a geographically bounded god we know more about, Mazludeh is the goddess of sacrifice and stewardship - Neutral Good. She's active in Holomog, a country south of here. She tends to have about twelve clerics at a time, most of them selected when they first visit one of her temples in Holomog; on some occasions she's chosen someone elsewhere, but always someone who had been near her clerics when they travelled - suggesting that Her attention was following their cleric. I've written to the Worldwound to ask if Yaezhing's priests are there right now, as that's the likeliest mechanism; our representative there didn't know offhand, but they probably are. Even small Lawful countries usually send a couple of representatives to the Worldwound on general principle. Or Yaezhing might not be a geographically bounded god at all! Our references are too limited to be sure."

Permalink

Keltham notes down this exact response to his unspoken question as a slight bit of evidence that they're reading his mind or talking to devils smart enough to model it eerily perfectly, but it's only slight evidence; if Keltham can think of it, so can they, Keltham supposes.  There hasn't been very much other evidence of his hosts reading his mind, not counting Lrilatha seeming to know exactly how to talk to him, and Lrilatha is a more plausible big special case.

"I would have expected more for there to be a systematic compendium of entities that have clerics, if there's only a few hundred of them, and especially entities with clerics at the Worldwound..."  Keltham says.  "Any simple way of getting a count on all the Lawful Neutral gods with clerics there, or even asking them all for a one-paragraph summary of what their gods are about?"  It is really bizarre to Keltham that info like this has not already been collected.

Permalink

Aspexia isn't out of range yet; she warns the agent to be more careful with using information from subjects who don't know mind-reading exists.

Permalink

Noted. (He'd be much more panicked if he knew who was talking to him.) "We have a list of all the churches that are signatories to the treaty. For a list more comprehensive than that...there's not really a way to get one? The Worldwound is a hundred miles across; the perimeter is therefore 650. There are three hundred forty-four different heavily warded fortresses on the perimeter. Eighty one of them are ours, and we host some foreign adventurers, and probably have records of any weird clerics who've stayed at one of our fortresses. But the Tian nations are mostly on the other side, and it's not traversable except by teleport, and civilians aren't really welcome, so you'd have to convince some of the soldiers to do it."

Permalink

People can count to 344.  If you divide up the work among 43 people they only need to census 8 fortresses apiece.

Keltham doesn't pursue this further, though; it matches too much other strangely missing competence to seem relatively anomalous.  He just needs to keep better track of whether the incompetence tends to get in the way of anything that might possibly maybe incentivize him to be anywhere but Cheliax.

"Sorry for even more basic questions but remind me of how many hours, or days, of unskilled labor, it takes to buy a teleport to the Worldwound from Tian."  Does the basic picture on international trade even make sense here.

Permalink

"...in Cheliax it'll run you 1400gp, which is twenty unskilled labor-years, double that for a round trip. I don't know Tian prices and they probably vary a lot country-to-country by how many high level wizards there are and by how far you are from the Worldwound - a single teleport can only travel up to about 1000miles - it varies by caster circle -- so that price reflects needing two Teleports. In, say, Irrisen, you can do it in one jump so the price is probably around half that, not that I've been to Irrisen."

Permalink

Okay, it taking twenty labor-years just to get him here from the Worldwound is not actually a thing that Keltham had previously known was the case.  He supposes that degree of scarcity rhymes with Carissa saying that a thousand people are the country's effective real military power.  Golarion's economy is insane, like, not literally inconsistent with itself, but it is going to go on being really weird until Keltham figures out the internal rhythm that makes all the different facts be predictable from premises smaller than themselves.  Also his implied startup debt is bigger than he thought and he should be less worried about adding small bits to it and more worried about paying back the startup debt sooner.

"Excuse me a second, recalculating entire probable state of all international trade," Keltham says absently.

When Keltham is done, "Have you ever heard of a Lawful Neutral god that tries to prevent... giant messes, disasters?"

Permalink

"No? I mean, lots of them probably do, but I've never heard of one who had that specifically in their portfolio. Which means they don't openly have a church in Cheliax or any of our neighbors."

Permalink

Worth a shot, but either he's been warned off answering, or the Broomgod really is that secretive.

"What factors control how, when, and where clericing entities can communicate with or influence clerics?"

Permalink

"I think the general consensus about gods is that they are primarily constrained by treaty with one another and by very general resource constraints - so they can do most things, but some things are very costly, and some things they've promised not to. A smaller god would be more resource-constrained and the Lawful gods are more treaty-constrained."

Permalink

"I'm really hoping for a lot more detail than that.  All the other facts along the lines of 'they can see where their clerics go, so can use that to pick new clerics'.  Has anyone measured the distance a cleric can move away before a god stops hearing prayers directed at them from nonclerics nearby the cleric?  Does it vary with other measurables about the god that you can use to infer a central strength-factor with which both cleric sight distance and other factors vary?"

Permalink

"....no?"

Permalink

the number one thing that is IMPLAUSIBLE about this place is how much supposedly NOBODY HAS EVER TRIED TO FIGURE OUT ANYTHING IMPORTANT but nobody would LIE using THAT LIE they would make up FAKE DATA so it didn't look like AN ENDLESS STREAM OF HIDDEN INFORMATION and maybe they are playing one ply deeper than him and KNOW THIS IS HOW HE'LL FEEL and WANT HIM TO FEEL THIS CONFUSED but nonetheless AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

Permalink

Keltham gives up on subtlety; if that was what somebody was hoping for, they have gauged him perfectly.  "My god can't seem to contact me.  I can tell they want to, I can tell they can't, what's going wrong and how do I fix it."

Permalink

" - huh. Possibilities: there's some treaty prohibiting them from doing so. If there is I don't know anything about it. They are a localized god and you're too far away for them to do something as costly as that. They don't know how to talk to mortals without overwriting their brain, Nethys is known to have that problem."

Permalink

"Overwriting -"

Ione, says a part of himself in sudden horror.

"Does that - destroy their mind-state?  Overwrite their soul, nothing left for the afterlife but a copy or a fragment of Nethys?"

Permalink

"He did it a couple of times thousands of years ago when He was a new god and then stopped. We have records of how the people all went irretrievably insane including when dead but we don't know very many details on the nature of the irretrievable insanity. And now He drops levels on people but doesn't talk to them. He's an extreme case, but Asmodeus also doesn't ever talk directly to mortals, He communicates to devils who then attempt to translate for us."

Permalink

"Who else doesn't talk directly to mortals?  What do Asmodeus and Nethys have in common?"

Permalink

"I think most of the gods that aren't ascended humans talk to mortals rarely if at all. - the gods that ascended via the Starstone are Norgorber, Iomedae, Aroden, and Cayden Cailean, and the general understanding is that they're better at talking to mortals because they can use an internal copy of their mortal mind as an interface of sorts. Nethys is also technically said to be an ascended human god but His ascension process was different and drove Him mad, reportedly. And then there are scattered other ex-mortals: Irori, Lawful Neutral, who ascended through attaining perfection; Erecura, a Lawful Neutral god of secrets and soothsayers and the Queen of Dis, in Hell; Milani, Chaotic Good goddess of bloody revolutions."

Total: 4482
Posts Per Page: