"It is very nice here. You have a lot of space."

"Orc cities are really crowded," says Thiaben. "I guess someday when there are that many Elves our cities will be too."

"What do you do to make sure there aren't too many of you?"

" - what do you mean?"

"- especially if you don't die - if there are more and more people, they will run out of room."

"Yeah. You can't really solve that, though."

"We have people not allowed to have too many children, on Amenta. All the countries agreed."

"We don't have that. I don't think orcs would agree. They have lots of children."

"...when we didn't have that, there were wars over space."

"Oh. There haven't been those here."

"There aren't as many of you."

"That might be why, yeah."

"Yet."

"Orcs are nice, I don't think they'd have a war," she says uncertainly. "That'd be - really bad."

"But if they need more space and won't agree to stop having children what will they do?"

"Build star ships probably?"

"But those are slow, and you needed the Valar to tell you that Valinor was good to live on."

" - I guess. Maybe they'll stop having babies when there are too many of them."

"But you said they wouldn't agree. And you have space."

"I guess some orcs could live here if they didn't mind the veils? It wouldn't solve the problem for very long."

"It wouldn't."

"Elves would stop having children if we were out of space for them."

"Orcs though? Dwarves?"

" - I don't know."

Nelen shrugs awkwardly.