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No one really knows how the parties get to yes
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Finally.

This has been the plan for what seems like most of her life. Turns out it's actually pretty hard to beg, steal, borrow, or barter this much power, especially when you can't steal. Air elemental, one, sealed away for later. Heat elemental, one. Water, three. Water breathing mask, which is actually being used for its intended purpose. Extremely waterproof backpack, and a few layers of barely magical kite fabric. 

A successful elementalist can sometimes fly. Air, usually; there aren't a lot of earth or stone spirits that go in for motion. If an elementalist is especially successful, there's no reason she shouldn't be able to keep flying.

Amber double-checks the math and the timing. She climbs into her sphere and starts accelerating. And then everything goes wrong.

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They ventured out, in that first month, only a few hundred yards onto the Ice. People were going to die – Findekáno knew it, Nolofinwë knew it, the host now dug in on the shores of Araman knew it very well. But no one has died yet, and in a way it paralyzed them, waiting for it. They inched along the sheer ice faces and rolled logs across to test where it can bear the weight and were painstakingly, excruciatingly, careful. 

Climbing the ice was not in fact particularly difficult – not as difficult as Findekáno had imagined it, certainly. They had broken down the wagons into thick ice picks. You lit a fire at the bottom of a cliff and left the ice picks in it, to absorb the heat, so later they would slide like butter into their positions on the cliff. You stood there and held them, heat eating its way through your mittens and hand, and waited for the ice to freeze again around your new addition. And then you climbed down, grabbed another, climbed up, did it again. They were testing the best pick shapes and the best distances; the cliffs on the lip of Araman were studded with climbing holds, and with climbers.

“At this rate -” Findekáno said to his father -

“It would take us ten Years,” his father said grimly. “We won’t proceed at this rate, we learn more every day.”

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On the one hand, this isn't the worst-case scenario. On the other, it's bizarre enough to not even have made the list of possible outcomes. The direction of down changed, but so did the geography. Upward in open air, downward next to an icebound cliff face, there really should have been some detectable change in between. The pilot sends a command and the sphere starts slowing down, but too slowly. It deforms and tears, gushing out the contents and leaving her drenched in warm but rapidly freezing water and sprawled in full view of anyone who happens to be looking.

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And that's when someone comes crashing out of the sky.

Well, not crashing. More like oozing out of the sky, like she'd been inside a very large raindrop that had burst, and the descent is slow enough that a few thousand people have crowded onto the ridge to watch and a few dozen (he notices who they are, he should commend them later) have run over to try to help.

He hurries towards them.

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Regardless of the method of exiting the sky, being in this sky in the first place is the main problem.

look shows that yes, this really is some place entirely different, unless someone went to the trouble to transplant a location's worth of spirits. And none of these people are practitioners. The people who just saw someone ooze out of the sky. Brilliant. She stands, a bit shakily, and takes the mask off. Time to breathe air, apparently.

"Where am I?"

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She doesn't speak Quenya. Inconvenient. Is she Avari? Did she get here from Endorë? Doesn't seem likely, and hardly makes it easier to talk to her, and also where would they have learned to do that?

"You're going to freeze," he says forcefully, and projects the image that'll communicate that. "Come get inside and undressed and then we'll learn languages."

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Freezing isn't actually a risk, but you don't demonstrate magic in front of non-practitioners. Not if they might not know too much yet.

Not that this man is a typical non-practitioner. "What was that? Telepathy?" Hopefully it works both ways. She follows him inside.

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Being soaked in cold water can kill you within an hour, there've been some close calls. Undress, he thinks anxiously, keep the lampstones near you for heat, I'll get as many blankets as I can and then we'll fill this tent with people to keep it warm.

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Undressed in a tent full of people. Great. If this is how they heat places, they're almost as unprepared as if they had been the ones appearing out of nowhere.

And it is a lot less unconfortable when not actively freezing. She starts removing clothes, much less anxious than he is.  I don't suppose you can hear me? (If there's a trick to this, the answer's no. Maybe there isn't one.)

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Oh, so she does talk. Yes, I can hear you. 

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"How," no, how are you doing this?

It's an important question. Maybe he's already been brought into the fold by someone else and knows enough that it's safe to warm up more directly.

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Everyone can do this. She's worrying about whether it's safe to tell him something - what? Who is she?

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I've never met someone who can do this. Amber has no idea he heard anything she didn't italicize. Where are we?

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"Araman," he says grimly. Not a safe place. I take it you did not mean to land here.

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No. I don't even know what went wrong to bring me here.

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Then I suppose you are one step behind us; I can identify precisely what I did wrong, though it's a long list. He calls something through the door, and four or five more people file in to press around the room and warm it.

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You're not here by choice either?

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 We'd planned on leaving.

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That cliff... you're trying to leave that way?

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Grief, anger, bitterness - We had boats.

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I mean, that direction instead of the opposite one? If it's this place that's dangerous.

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It's a bit complicated. We need to get to the other side, so we have to take the ice path. We're still learning how to do it safely, and won't leave until it's safer. But we can't go back.

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Can I ask what you're getting away from?

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Long story.

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I'll take that as  a no.

My name's Amber, by the way, I don't think I said.

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FindekánoYou hadn't. Where are you from?

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A city called Toronto, but I'll be surprised if there are any places we both know.

If this were a book, the person in her position would be checking the sky for recognizable constellations. As it happens, that's unnecessary. The night sky here is missing something rather more obvious. The half-moon should be the same anywhere on Earth, there's no visible moon here, and also everyone's telepathic.

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That isn't known to me, noCuivienen?

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No. Earth?

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No. Well. Do you have the means to go back?

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No. As far as I know, no one has ever managed to get home from this far away.

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Discouraging. If it helps, no one has ever done what we're attempting, either.

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It does, a bit.

How long is this ice path you're taking? Where I'm from, when people explored the Arctic a lot of them died, and they did have ships.

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Two hundred miles by the sea route; the land will be a little longer. Three hundred, maybe, until we're back into tolerable weather?

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You're going to walk three hundred miles across an arctic wasteland. Unmapped arctic wasteland.

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We are mapping it first.

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Well that's less suicidal then, but are you even remotely equipped for this?

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Does it look like it? We were not planning to do it, and can't generate the supplies out of nowhere. We're learning and trying.

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If whatever it is on this side is unsolvable enough that the ice is the better option... then they could definitely use some help. Provided all magic use can be hidden from anyone who doesn't already know, of course. How much did you see when I arrived?

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You were surrounded by very hot water, in the sky. The water rapidly cooled, and changed shapes, and softened somewhat your landing, and at that point rapidly cooled to the temperature of the Ice.

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You can see temperature? People back home can't. 

 

(And it sounds like Findekáno didn't see enough to snap through to knowing about the magic. Good; if he had then everyone else probably would have too.)

Amber briefly pictures telling her heat elemental to warm up this tent; it'd be a lot more effective than body heat. It's a pleasant image, and probably manageable without the other freezing people knowing who or how. The spirit can follow commands complex enough that wouldn't be suspiciously warming up wherever she is, and of course no one else could see it....

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She's thinking about heat, which is understandable, and whether people will be bothered if she somehow - heats the room? They can't see heat, but they can produce it?

 

We can see temperature. Warmth would be lovely.

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Wait, he knows that's an option?

How much of what I think have you been hearing?

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Most of it? I'm not pressing you, but you're being quite open. Was that not deliberate?

 

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Don't think of an elephant. There are much worse things to fail to not think of, so don't think of an elephant.

I've been trying to send maybe a sentence at a time, and didn't know you were getting more than that.

Elephant.

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Ah. I will stop listening, if you like. 

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We don't share a language otherwise. Would you still hear the things I mean to send?

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I heard that. I can try to only filter for things you're specifically sending me. I can also probably learn your language.

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I should learn yours, since there's a plural number of people who speak it.

The bigger problem is if I'm broadcasting whatever I think and it looks indistinguishable from someone doing it on purpose. That would be pretty likely to go horribly wrong. Because of the elephant.

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What is that creature? And mental privacy can be taught - and is taught, to children - with practice. I can explain it to you now.

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Please.

That's an animal from Earth. I'm using it to avoid thinking of things I shouldn't say out loud. It's working?

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I see the animal. We probably have something similar, I just didn't travel as much as Irissë. He looks at one of the other people quitely crowding the room for heat reasons, sends the elephant. She nods.

Yes, he muses, Valinor has most animals somewhere. Okay, so what you need to do is think of a way of delineating public and private thoughts. Some people do this visually, spacially, with other senses...

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Assuming the delineation is supposed to be a metaphor, spatial works as well as anything else. Private thoughts can stay safely on the correct side of the cranium, and public ones can go here, held out on display or pushed from one person's forehead to another's.

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I can see the process you're choosing to delineate your thoughts. You want to go higher up - the fact you delineate is in the private side. The fact you think at all is in the private side.

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It's weird to think of the fact of thinking as secret, but it does make some sense. Thought takes place physically in the private space, after all.

Does everyone just get used to doing this all the time?

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It becomes instinct, yes. Most people pick it up in ten, twenty years? I've never known anyone to take more than fifty, and I have some relatives who are thoughtless and temperamental. Bitterness, grief, anger.

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It takes yearsIf your year is anything like the same length as mine, a decade is a long time. Let alone five.

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Not for everyone. Just - even if you're bad at it, you'd definitely have it down by then. You are older, motivated, you'll likely learn quickly.

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I'd better. Wouldn't want to pick between broadcasting every thought out loud and spending half my life as a hermit.

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Half your life?

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Well, you did say those numbers were on the long end of the range.

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You misunderstand the source of my confusion. Are you that certain your death is imminant?

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Imminent? I hope it's far enough off that I wouldn't put it that way. But a hundred years would be a very long life span. Is your year just that much shorter than mine, or are people here immortal as well as telepathic?

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We do not die, save by violence or grief.

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Humans get about three score years and ten, or eighty if they're strong. It's better than it used to be, but there still aren't a lot who live to a hundred. Violence isn't required, but I don't think we even can die of grief if you mean that literally.

Immortals. That's good for them and all, but back home people who live forever tend not to have particularly human-compatible goals, let alone ethics.

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You didn't conceal that thought, were you intending to? You need to sort of practice at it regularly. Are you a Man, then? I've never met one but the short lives are supposed to be rather their distinguishing characteristic.

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Which thought? I meant to send the human life span summary. 

Anyone she shows or tells about the existence of the spirits and monsters becomes her responsibility. If after falling from the sky and everything else it's a telepathy accident that gives it away, then... that's probably exactly the same. Complete strangers who could and probably would accidentally inflict bad karma by violating a code they don't know about.
Anything about there being immortals on Earth definitely should have been private.

Yes, I'm human. The species gets called man sometimes, but the word's ambiguous.

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The thought which accompanied the life span summary was that in your experience of our kind, we are unconcerned with yours. He grimaces. It turns out to be difficult to hear only the thoughts you're deliberately sending, save by not listening at all. I'm sorry.

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Experience of his kind? Could be worse, but this implies elephant. (Should be private, but privacy isn't reliable yet. Back to the pachyderm it is, just in case)

I'll have to get better at privacy one way or another, if everyone here has this extra sense. Is there somewhere out of range I can practice?

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No one will be able to hear you if you're a hundred yards off and not shouting at us, but it's a bit cold out there.

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If it's between that and having my private thoughts indistinguishable from other people's public ones...

Might be time to take a risk. I should see if I can get my heating system working again. If it still works after the crash it'd be warmer than in here, and mobile.

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You have a heating system? Lovely.

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I'd be happy to share it, once everything works that needs to. At first it should probably just be whoever's testing the telepathy. Is there someone who's some combination of cold and trustworthy?

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Everyone is cold, and to my knowledge everyone untrustworthy is very far from here.

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Anyone who can be spared, then. I'd jump straight to using it to heat a tent, but for the moment I should be around as few people as possible.

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Understood. He says something in his language to one of the people in the tent. She turns around.

Hey! Findekáno says you want to go outside, test a heating thing you have, and practice not thinking out loud?

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Yep!  Your language too, maybe; it looks like I'll have to start learning that at some point.

I'm Amber, in case I wasn't shouting last time I said it, what's your name?

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Irissë. This is quite unexpected, but nice to meet you I guess. 

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Unexpected is a bit of an understatement but extremely true.

Head to the wreck, see what's salvageable?

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The wreck of your flying thing? Yes, by all means.

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The wreck looks like a large deflated polyester bubble. The entrance hatch is transparent and watertight, and the entire thing is frozen halfway under its formerly liquid contents. The cold bites at them on the way over.

Do materials like this fabric exist here?

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She examines it. No.

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I have no idea how it's made, unfortunately.

 The objects with the spirits bound into them are still here, as expected, looking no more out of place than the rest of this mess. The trick is going to be using it right in front of Irissë. Can you help me break it out of here?

It's not necessarily a two-person job, but if Amber happens to be on the side by the thermometer with the heat elemental there's nothing remarkable about that.

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She happily attempts to help.

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It cracks its way out easily, most of the ice being underneath. Once freed, the pieces are thin and extremely light.

Amber takes the chance to tell her elemental, in English, to move from the thermometer into the fabric. Much less thematically appropriate, but bound is bound and this binding is tight.

Do you have something to cut it with? We aren't going to need that window, and the rip could stand to be neater. I'll see if I can get it to start warming up.

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She pulls out a knife. How are you imagining it?

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Just around the circumference for the window, and we can worry about the edges later. That one's mostly cosmetic as long as it doesn't come under any tension.

She starts fiddling with the polyester. Hopefully it looks like straightening it for reasons or applying percussive maintenance, but what's more relevant is muttering "come on, work" and verbally telling it to warm up.

It starts generating heat, which is definitely a property of functional kite fabric and nothing at all to do with any spirit or elemental.

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She's impressed and delighted and claps her hands together.

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I just wish I could make more like this.

 

They're probably pretty visible right now, aren't they, if everyone can see heat.

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They do have a bit of an audience. Well, it won't dramatically change the challenge ahead of us, but you'll have an easy time making friends. 

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I'm not at all sure I'd want to try doing it with you. A lot depends on why getting to the other side is necessary in the first place, and Findekáno was talking as if that was secret. But as long as your whole world isn't frozen, I should at least be able to spare you the heat.

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Oh, it's not secret at all, he's just heartbroken about it. There's an evil rampaging around on the other side, and he'll kill everyone if we don't arrive to stop him.

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...That's one of the better possible reasons.

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Yeah. You still might want to stay here, it's going to be one hell of a trip.

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Evidently.

Is doing it on foot really less bad than building ships from scratch or whatever the next option is?

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Do you see any ship-building materials? 

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If you had no ship-building materials and everything you needed to trek across glaciers, I might agree with you. It looks more like you're starting from scratch either way.

 

She collects the armful of warmth and starts trudging away from the telepathic people.

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Good luck, she says, amused. The Valar probably won't retaliate against a random stranger who doesn't know about any recent events, right? They're not that angry?

Uh. The guardians of that continent are extremely old, extremely powerful, and currently in a bad mood. You should tread carefully.

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From what you said about the reason, I might want to cross after all. Will definitely want more background on those guardians either way, and on the other side of the ocean. 

Right now I'm just getting far enough away to be able to think without shouting to everyone.

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Gotcha. See you later.

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I'll be back soon. Hopefully with less telepathy.

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She heads back in. Well. One more person, who can keep herself warm. And fly - or was that a one-off thing? And why isn't she discussing it? 

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A hundred yards. Add in margin of error.

What she wants to do is wrap the improvised equivalent of a heated blanket around her head and shut everything out. There is just too much stuff going on. The fact that she'll probably never get home is coming in maybe third. But lying on the ice would probably just melt a hole, so wearing it like an inconveniently large cape it is.

This is also the first real chance to get the story straight. Can't tell about the magic, but they know Earth contains immortals and are safely assuming that means their species. Whatever it is their species is, which she probably shouldn't ask because they're supposed to be perfectly normal back home. Them and specialty heat-generating synthetic fabrics. And some method of flying, when they can see a complete lack of engine or anything. Probably can't get away with "it just does that" even if that does work for the heat. Great.

The magic components are still in working order. Nothing crucial broke. Just flying away is an option, maybe starting over on more controlled terms. But that would leave these people out in the cold, and if Irissë was serious about an evil that would kill everyone they'll probably need all the help they can get. Which means what, exactly? Amber could fly them over one at a time if there weren't so many of them, or probably help propel a boat if there were seaworthy ones already, but both of those would violate the Statute of Secrecy. Warmth is probably about all she can do. And it's not even all that much warmth. There are appliances that could do it better. This elemental isn't even very specialized for this; it was supposed to be getting rid of heat sometimes and generating it others. But it's not like anyone else is better equipped.

Haring off somewhere else to come back with more warmth-themed elementals? There wouldn't be any guarantee of success, and it'd show too much even if it worked. Ice elementals, though; those could be sent ahead to make something resembling a traversible path. That could conceivably be done secretly, even, with nothing to tie it back to her. Just have to find some spirits powerful enough to matter, somehow, and get them bound, somehow.
At least this one is a solvable problem. She sets down one of the two tokens containing a bound intermediate river spirit. Let it freeze in place, buried enough that non-practitioners won't even see it. And she directs it to flow power through a nearby chunk of ice. Wasteful, but it ought to attract something useful eventually. 


Whatever caused the accident, it probably does mean getting home is theoretically possible. But not only does Amber have no idea how, she's got no idea where to even start looking. Universe's revenge for years of thinking it needs fixing, maybe.

In the meantime, privacy is a little important. She practices partitioning thoughts into private and public until it feels as natural as it's likely to get, then goes to find Irissë.

 

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The stranger is gone for long enough they'd be worried about her, except that all she does is sit down draped in heat, putter around on the ice, and then pace while presumably practicing. When she does come back, Irissë smiles at her. Any better?

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I hope so. Got my head around all this a little more. Am I still leaking thoughts?

The hopefully-private background thought is a rhinocerous this time, but with luck that doesn't matter.

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Huh. No. I can tell you're suppressing things but not at all what they are

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Good enough, I guess. I don't have to avoid everyone.

Do you know where best to leave this? It can make one room warm, might not make a huge difference but it will to a few people.

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We can designate a room for people who get wet or are injured or give birth.

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Hopefully emergencies aren't so common that it ends up being exclusively for those. But yes, wherever it's most needed.

Amber takes off the flowing mass and passes it to Irissë. The night is just as freezing as it ever was, but everyone else is just as underequipped after all. She shivers.

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You're generous.  Are you joining us, then? I would that we could offer you better options.

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I don't really have enough information yet to say yes or no. What is your war being fought over, and who is the everyone that the other side would kill? Why are you bringing families and noncombatants instead of just sending an army? Who are the guardians of the other continent that count as old by immortal standards? Who are they guarding? There's...a lot I don't know.

But whether I join you or not, I'm probably not the one who'd benefit the most from this.

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"We're all going because we got kicked out by the guardians of this continent, so now we have no choice but to somehow make it across. Those guardians are called the Valar. They're older than the world - they built it. They're guarding their paradise. We got exiled from it after we rebelled against them. The Enemy is - well, he likes murder and torture and he wants to rule the world."

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Language along with telepathy, good idea. Amber doesn't have the language to respond in kind yet, so it'll come out as mostly just the telepathy with occasional spoken words when she remembers relevant vocabulary.

 

"How old is the world? Do the Valar handle their guardianship badly, or what was the rebellion about? I've never met the equivalent of the Valar where I'm from, if there are any."

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"Many Ages," she says with a shrug. "They mostly handled it okay but when the Enemy murdered the King and destroyed the Trees they sat down to counsel and it'd been three years and they hadn't moved and the Enemy was running free in the Outer Lands and we had to do something."

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"So you left? From the sound of 'rebellion' I thought you were going to say you tried to dethrone them, or fought your way out or something.

Also, you might have to explain the Trees. There aren't a lot back home that get capital letters, let alone the definite article."

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"It didn't used to be this dark everywhere. The Trees lit the world so you could see in it.

And, ah, we tried to leave. We came here and realized there was no way out. So we went to the harbor, and I wasn't in the vanguard so I don't know how it happened but what we were told is that they tried to convince the people who lived there to loan us ships so we could get to the battleground faster, and they refused, and they tried to convince them to teach us how to build our own ships, or aid us in the making, so we could get there before it was too late, and they refused, and then they tried to take a ship and weapons were drawn and it escalated."

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"Escalated– oh. I'm sorry.

The people at the harbor killed your vanguard and fled?"

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"They were close to done with the job when my brother arrived. I think he'd have stayed out if he'd known that we started it but he thought they'd attacked us unprovoked, so he attacked them, and won, and we took the boats. The Valar were furious, and sank many of them in retaliation, and then sentenced us to die on those shores, and in vain."

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"Oh. Um– oh.

So you've all been sentenced to die pointlessly on the other side, even the people who thought it was self-defense and the noncombatants, and your response to this is to try to get there as soon as possible?"

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"The war that originally motivated us to leave is still happening! The peoples whose deaths we were in a hurry to prevent are still dying!"

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"That is actually a good point. But if the creators of the universe, whose job you are doing, have decided to make sure you fail, then rushing across isn't going to help!"

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"But we can't stay here, we're exiled."

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"Stay here anyway until they provide some way to get across since they apparently want that so much? Never mind, I can see how that one could be even worse. Find some third set of shores? Even if you do have to leave this way, It sounds like you're planning to fight despite knowing in advance it won't help."

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"Knowing in advance we won't win. We can buy the continent a few free centuries, make him waste his greatest weapons against us, keep our allies alive until they grow enough to deliver the final strike themselves."

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"Actually, if you have allies there who haven't been sentenced, what happens if you join them instead of fighting as your own side? If you give this collective punishment thing exactly what it demands and your faction stops existing without accomplishing anything?"

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"I have no idea. Once you have a better sense of our language I'll give you the exact words, in case they matter."

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"I hope they do, but I haven't heard of the Valar before tonight. Have they done this kind of thing before?"

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"No. But no one's killed anyone in Valinor before. Ever."

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"Ever? Wow. How many people are there? Or, for that matter, here? Humans have dozens or hundreds of killings every year, in cities of millions."

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"A million probably in the whole land. We're around a hundred thousand here. And the Valar kept it safe. You had dozens of killings a year? That's absurd."

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"I agree completely. Used to be even worse; the last few centuries have gotten a lot less bad.

But you said your Enemy likes murder; if you're only just leaving the place where no one had ever killed anyone how do you know that?"

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"Before we lived there, we lived on the continent we're travelling to now. There - we probably lost hundreds a year, and our population was much smaller. If you went out alone or got lost you'd never be seen again. The Enemy's creatures stalked the whole land. He'd take our people, take them prisoner, torture them, breed his servants from them. Eventually the Valar warred with him, and took him prisoner, and invited us to come to Valinor because his monsters still walked everywhere and it wasn't safe."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's horrifying." Unfortunately not unprecedented, but that doesn't make it less horrifying.

"And the Valar not only tried to sentence you to go back there, but decreed that you'd lose. As if they forgot they were supposed to be against this.
How did they capture the Enemy and how did he escape? If we're lucky there might be a clue to how to beat him."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There was a war. It lasted a century. Continents crumbled." She winces. "We're a little overmatched."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That doesn't add up. If he can crumble continents, what does he get out of having smaller-scale servants? And you are expecting there to be people to save, so it's not as if he's deploying that level of firepower in combat. If it's true that he can do that at all, it sounds like there's a catch to it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Time. The abilities of the Valar take centuries, sometimes millenia."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And your strategy is to buy time? If he's going to become unstoppable eventually, that sounds like it calls for either a quick win or an evacuation while there's still a continent to evacuate from."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We, too, gain capabilities over time. We don't have the means to fight him directly yet - or we're assuming we don't, we are planning to try at once - but if we can build a coalition while we're there, train, invent new weapons - "

Permalink Mark Unread

"I might be able to help with that one. I have no idea how most of the technology my people use actually works, but there is a lot of it and maybe I can point you toward the things we replaced bladed weapons with."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Great. Uh, the ice is more pressing as a problem."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The technological solution to ice involves enormous metal boats that can crash their way through. On foot, the answer is to not do it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, we're not just staying here forever."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I just mean I don't know what devices humans would use for this. If it's snow, people have had some success with sleds pulled by dogs, but then you have to get dogs from somewhere and feed them somehow, and I think it doesn't work as well on ice anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We've been scouting. We have ice picks and can fish and have rope we can use to get across the cliffs and haul supplies. And we're pretty tough. We'll make it, but people are going to die. That's why I was curious if you had other suggestions."

Permalink Mark Unread

One, but that works just as well without ruining secrecy.

"I don't know any usefully replicable technology for this."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No worries. You're welcome to come with us, if you'd like, but if you want to go on to Valinor I doubt they'd be mad at you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"To be honest, I have more of a "stay very far away" reaction to people with prophecies of doom and broad opinions of guilt by association than to the ice. Even if it's practically impassible. That's not a fully considered opinion, though, not yet.

Do you really expect to be able to fish enough to feed a hundred thousand people?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Enough for us to not go hungry? No. Enough that we can stay alive? Maybe. We didn't have much chance to test our limits in Valinor. In theory we can endure indefinitely on very, very little."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Indefinitely? Humans can't do that. 

I shouldn't try to cross the ice with you. That's probably not going to be the only obstacle where your people are relying on just being tough enough.


Are there ships that might take passengers who haven't been involved in any disasters?""

Permalink Mark Unread

"If there were any ships at all we wouldn't be trying this," she says. "You could petition the Valar but that I'm nearly certain they'd refuse you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And that would also involve talking to the Valar.

Is that inevitable, on this side, or are the vengeful deities easily avoided?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, if you stay out here they probably won't bother you, but you can't live here alone forever, and they'll notice you if you enter their territory."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There's nowhere populated that's accessible from here and outside their territory?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. We're on the northern fringes of their continent. No one lives here, obviously, and everywhere habitable is in Valinor proper. I am sorry."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's an inconvenent choice, but at least I didn't have the choice made for me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Though I mostly blame the idiots who started the fighting for that, not the Valar."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No rule against multiple people being evil simultaneously. Unfortunately."

Permalink Mark Unread

She flinches. "None of them are evil, just scared and selfish."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sorry. I forgot you said they had been with you."

Which isn't a retraction.

Permalink Mark Unread

"They're my cousins. They made some bad calls, and I'm furious with them, and sometimes I hate them, but - they're really not evil. The enemy we're all trying to stop is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It sounds like he's the rare person who's nothing but that. Which makes taking sides a lot easier."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Valar didn't think he was all bad either. Kept trying to give him second chances."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, so they do have a concept of walking back punishments. That's good news under the circumstances, even if they've also got really bad judgment in deploying it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I expect if we headed home and fell to our knees they'd eventually pardon us. But we don't want to go back. We wanted to emigrate long before all of this, and now we're needed even more."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do they demand the kneeling and so on from everyone, or just from people they think committed crimes? Because if they know or care what people in their realm think of them...."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You wouldn't have anything to repent of, would you? I mean, everyone's supposed to respect them, but the reason we couldn't just head home is that we rebelled against them, and we'd have to show that we regretted that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"People who run countries vary a lot in how much they tolerate dissent, and I don't know what the Valar are like when they aren't at their worst. If I walk in there and someone finds out that I think their sentence was badly thought through and a terrible idea even as applied to the people who were actually at fault, I could imagine someone in the Valar's position considering that disrespect."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They might. They've never issued a sentence like the Doom, before, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not realistically worried about provoking a repeat performance, I'd just rather avoid offending people that powerful without a very good reason. General principle."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wish we'd heard of it." She sighs. "Anyway, there was fighting after the Doom over the remaining boats, and it was about to get really bad, and the people who currently controlled the boats decided to sail off with them and not come back. Since then we've been scavenging for supplies and trying to figure out how to make the trip. You can't do your flying trick again?"

Permalink Mark Unread

She does not say no.

"Flying is a very generous term for what I was doing back there, but thanks.

Anyway, flight has the same issue as the heat thing. Most of the more interesting devices humans use are black boxes to any single person. It wasn't just water in there, and unlike the fabric the liquid wasn't salvageable afterward. I couldn't reinvent gravitics even if we weren't in the middle of nowhere."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sorry. Uh, I'd be happy to start showing you how we're scaling the cliffs and things, it takes some practice to get the hang of..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks, but I think I'm going to try the other direction. Much less suicidal for a human. So scaling cliffs probably isn't a priority."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Gotcha. Best wishes. If you get admission in Valinor, tell my mother hi."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll do that if I get the chance. What's her name?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anairë. She's - well, I don't know what she technically is now, with the upheaval, but she should still be living in the palace."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anairë. I'll keep that in mind.

So, Valinor is in the direction that involves less ice. Is there anything more specific I need to know about getting there?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh. The people at the harbor might not be thrilled to see you, after what happened. Give them a wide berth. The whole place is dark and in ruin because of the Enemy we're going to fight. The city we're from is called Tirion, and it's white, and approximately in the middle of the continent, and was once very beautiful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Formerly beautiful white city, avoid the harbor, wait, how did he manage to darken the city?"

It probably isn't "sabotaged all the power plants," but that doesn't leave many candidates.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Killed the Trees." A mental image accompanies this.

Permalink Mark Unread

...okay. He did sabotage the power plants.

"When you mentioned that earlier, I thought it was a figure of speech. So it's going to stay this dark, not brighten in a few hours?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's going to be this dark forever, as far as we know."

Permalink Mark Unread

"My world has a sun," is sending mental images as easy as words? "and looks like this one sometimes, but only at its darkest. Usually there's either the sun or the moon vsible." Another picture.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Neither of those look familiar. We can manage by the starlight, but it is a bit frightning after one's used to the Trees. And plants don't grow anymore."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can imagine. Did the Trees warm the world as well as light it? If the sun somehow went out, we'd freeze before we starved."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They were warm, but the world was habitable without them. The other continent never had any Trees and we endured there for a thousand years perfectly well."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Even though plants don't grow?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Some fungi do. The Vala of the waters is pretty good at his job and most underwater things are fine. There are root vegetables that can make it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You seem nowhere near as worried about this as I'd expect someone from Earth to be. On my world, if everything but those stopped growing it could be an apocalypse in its own right."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It is. It's just an apocalypse that started several years ago, and has since precipitated enough other disasters we're rather inured to them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. That isn't better. And here I thought my world had problems.

Did the Valar have any plans to react, or are they going to let the Enemy have his victory?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They have no plans to react. Thus us doing it, however doomed and underqualified."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I meant along the lines of lighting the world with something else, since they can't possibly expect the rest of you to do that.

If not, I guess we're doing our wandering in the dark."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. They might do that eventually. No way to know, no plans in the works when we left."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I really don't envy you trying to cross the ice in the dark, on top of everything else. Hopefully I'll be able to meet you on the other side one way or another."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I hope so too, mostly because that'd mean the Valar tried to be helpful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ha. Of course, if they decide to try to be helpful against an enemy who has been known to break land masses and the idea they come up with is sending me over, that would be new and exciting forms of mistakes.

 

Normally I'd wait to leave for Valinor when it's light, but you don't have mornings here, do you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's not going to be able to do that overnight. And no, we don't have mornings. We've been trying to keep time by the movement of the stars, but it's hard."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No clocks? Hourglasses? I guess you never had a chance to make those, if you left in a hurry after the lights went out."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We actually waited several months hoping the Valar'd do something. Timekeeping devices weren't our priority, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Right. Multiple concurrent disasters."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The King had been killed and his successor wasn't qualified. Everyone wanted my father to rule instead, but they didn't want to have a civil war over it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That sounds like a mess best addressed by not being a monarchy in the first place, but given there already was one... yeah. Disputes like that are really common when kings aren't immortal.
Who was the successor?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The King's eldest son. My uncle. He - well. He has strengths. Not really strengths of character, none of those that I can think of, but he does have strengths."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Very diplomatic.

Is this the same branch of the family as the cousins who aren't evil?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's their father."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What are these non-character strengths? Other than having been born first, that is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Brilliant. Absurdly so, knows more about several different disciplines than everyone else on the continent combined and is competent with literally every field of study known to our people. Relentlessly hardworking, has a very careful hand, artistically talented."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A powerful force to have on your side, but not necessarily leading it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, exactly. The things he's worst at are moderation, caution, working with people, trust - and his father's death amplified all his paranoia and all his unhelpful tendencies. We sort of thought we'd just have to bring out the best in him, and we were going to try, but our people didn't want that. They wanted my father to lead. And when Fëanáro - my uncle - realized that, he regarded it as treason."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Understandably. A king finding out people want to try to replace him. You did say there was never a civil war, though, right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. They just left, when they found out. With the remaining boats. And then set them on fire on the other side, as a sort of parting 'fuck you', I guess."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What, they're up against an enemy that's having a good try at ruining the world, and they wanted to get rid of allies that badly? I see why you don't want him as king."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yup. He'd rather have half the numbers under his personal command than all of us, just because we noticed that he's not actually any good at ruling. And he left us stranded here, which is pretty damn likely to get some of us killed. We're going to have quite the confrontation on the other side, assuming we make it." She shakes her head. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"You're going across the way you are because of the Valar kicking you out and the Enemy needing to be fought, and he knows both those things. Taking the ships sounds like what someone would do if they wanted you weakened or dead but wanted to dodge responsibility for it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So what exactly do you think are our choices here? Repent and go home? Go across, weakened and possibly dead, and hope that his mood has improved by the time we're on the other side? Go across and fight a war on two fronts?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It sounds like you're right about having no good options.

I admit to being curious about what exactly the Valar do if you go back and say you'd be happy to leave if it were remotely feasible but this is no better than banishing you to the middle of the ocean, but that definitely counts as antagonizing the vengeful deities."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think they'd harm us. That's not really how they operate. If I had to guess I'd guess they'd mercifully lift our exile and then shoo us home to Tirion and tell us to sit there and work on repentence for a few centuries. With some of their guards at the city gates."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That definitely sounds less bad than a forced march across barely passable ice when it's permanently night and winter. But I can imagine people thinking otherwise."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Some people turned back. I think my uncle assumed that we all would."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So it's not that you have to leave by any means necessary, you decided staying was worse.
How many people are you expecting to lose?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know. Probably thousands; probably not ten thousand. All making their own choice."

Permalink Mark Unread

She nods. "I can see taking that risk. It's much better than this many humans would do, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What would you do? We've, uh, only heard about humans from the Enemy and it's been confirmed he was not lying but that leaves some latitude to skew the truth."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean that's much more successful than humans would manage. I haven't seen a lot of the ice, but if we were in your position and tried simply walking a population across our frozen continent, a lot more than ten percent would die. We'd probably tell the Valar banishing us isn't going to be very effective if we can't leave.

Feel free to ask about humans. I haven't met any from this world, though; they might be different."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Kinslaying is so common among humans you distinguish between, like, mass kinslaying and interpersonal kinslaying and random kinslaying and familial kinslaying? You have children while still yourselves children and have children even if there's no one to care for them and as a result your population grows so quickly that you quickly crowd out all other races? You have invented weapons Melkor would abhorr and used them to wipe each others' cities out, you marry people unwillingly sometimes, you force your children of eighteen or twenty to kill other children the same age to settle arguments?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"By kin you mean all members of the same species? We reserve the word for family.
All those types of killing have happened. I'm not sure how useful a benchmark 'common enough to distinguish between' is; unlike the Enemy, we measure how common things are with numbers. I don't have those in front of me, but I think something like a few deaths in a hundred thousand are homicide.

For anything about children, the most important answer is that humans age faster. An eighteen- or twenty-year-old human isn't a child. Most people who have children at all do it before they're thirty. If the Enemy knew all this and said that humans in general have children while themselves children, I'd call him a liar even if the Valar didn't.

Forced marriages have happened. They're even common, in a few countries, and in most it's considered a violation of human rights.

The thing about the weapons is true. No idea what he'd abhor, but if it includes this then most humans would agree with him. It got used once, ending a war by destroying two cities. Two hundred thousand died."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...wow. Okay. Uh, we've got a very narrow icy cliff of moral high ground to cling to here, but still. Wow."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not all Men, obviously. There have been a hundred billion or so. But the worst is pretty bad."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Everyone's pretty bad at their worst.

 

 

I'm going to head back in before I freeze, I think."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And I may as well start for Valinor, I guess. Thanks for the background on this world; I'd be even more lost without it. Pass that on to Findekáno too?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"For sure."

Permalink Mark Unread

There's a brief errand on the way out.

Shifting to a practitioner's second sight for the first time since arriving, it looks like an ice spirit did decide to stop by the improvised bait. Its appearance is distinctly not humanoid; more like a few connected mounds of snow and ice with spindly attachments that might be analogous to limbs. A small elemental, but strong enough to be better than nothing. Now to catch it.
It's settled in enough to not flee as soon as it gets noticed, but it's probably not about to be metaphorically eating out of anyone's hand either. 

Amber circles around it, low to the ground and drawing in the snow with a talisman taken from around her neck. Having the heat elemental back would be awfully convenient, partly because it's freezing out here and mostly because it's more effective to bind spirits with their opposites. After getting all the way around, she touches her pendant to the circle and charges it with power from her water and air elementals. Hopefully the target is docile or weak enough that it can be bound by similar forces as well as opposite ones; water is about as similar to ice as anything is, and she's pretty sure the wind that accompanied this air elemental when it was free was a cold one... this is kind of tenuous. But it does react when the circle gets completed, and it does stop at the boundary, so it's probably at least temporarily bound. Or at least not trying very hard.

She starts talking. In the new language where she can; her voice isn't going to reach far enough to be overheard anyway, and it's not as if nature spirits pay attention to the exact text of the human-language words. Or nonhuman as the case may be. "My name is Amber Atreides. You've accepted the offering I left, I returned for you, and now I've bound you. Now I want you to do something for me. These people are planning to trek across the ice, and they need help. I can show you one of them, her name is Irissë. I'll ask how a certain person knew about a recent human invention, the person I ask is her. I want you to keep the ice from breaking under Irissë, give her handholds when she's climbing, help however you can without being seen. I'm not asking you to go anywhere not frozen." Ideally she would have been binding an elemental powerful enough to make a way for the entire host, but in this short a time even this was lucky. "In exchange, I'll break the circle and give you as much of the energy that drew you here as you would have gotten if you stayed an hour. Or I could strengthen it, come back better equipped, and tighten the binding until you have to obey me."

It's an elemental. It doesn't understand what she's saying, in the human sense, but it gets some impression of what it's being asked. But it doesn't indicate an answer; instead it changes form from ice to snow and back and sloshes around the interior of the circle. It moves surprisingly quickly and occasionally stands upright, but stays inside the circle.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well.

"Findekáno," she says, "you listening to our guest?"

Permalink Mark Unread

The spirit freezes, colloquially as well as literally. Then it jolts, hard enough that part of the circle gets filled in. It quickly oozes out and escapes. It's almost like the reaction an elemental this size would have if someone spotted it enough to form a connection, to which there is only one response.

"Huh?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Everyone's listening. Want to, uh, go say 'hi' again, except knowing now that she's -"

 

"We don't know what she is," Irissë says automatically. Honestly it had sounded pretty cool. Confidently making a deal with ...a minor Maia? But you couldn't threaten those...

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, there's no one nearby who could have scared it off. It could have been seen, but at this range it would have at worst just looked like she was playing in the snow for some reason. Maybe there wasn't anything setting it off at all; it was a very weak binding.

At least no one needs to know she tried.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Melkor does that," he says.

 

"No, whatever Melkor does is different. That was - she asked it to help us."

"She asked it to help you."

Permalink Mark Unread

Oblivious to the fact that they aren't oblivious, Amber collects the bait elemental from the failed trap and resumes walking Valinorward. Maybe the next spirit will be more cooperative, if there is one.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Alright, go. Take five people with you, stay out of sight, be careful, call for help if -"

She nods impatiently and starts walking.

Permalink Mark Unread

She only started a few hundred yards ahead, and they're faster.

"Irissë?"

Amber doesn't recognize the others of the six.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hey. Thought we'd walk with you, or is it not the sort of thing we're supposed to watch?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Um. Which thing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"'You've accepted the offering I left, I returned for you, and now I've bound you. Now I want you to do something for me'?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. That was very much not something I should have let anyone see. How did you even hear that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We were still at the camp. You were barely a quarter mile off."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was almost a quarter mile off!

Of course. Telepathy, immortality, implausible good looks, and super hearing. I don't suppose you can fly on alternate Thursdays?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's a Thursday? If it's bigger than an eagle, I can probably fly on it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a day of the week. I guess if you aren't counting off days based on the sun you might not have had much reason to get the hang of Thursdays. Not important.

What's important is, if you could catch that from the camp, how many people heard it? And are they listening now?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot of people heard it. I'm sure many of them are listening now."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So anywhere from six to a hundred thousand. Um. Is there a way to talk without being overheard by several stadiums' worth of people?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Like we were doing when you arrived.

Permalink Mark Unread

"That works. OK, I'm about to tell Irissë why it was secret."

I have magic. There are different specialties, but I work with nature spirits: water, heat, wind. You heard me binding an ice elemental, but it got away. My kind of magic comes with drawbacks, of which the relevant one is a system of karma. If you tell someone the practice exists, you become partly responsible for any mistakes they make. This is mistakes as judged by the magic itself, and it has a system of right and wrong that as far as I know no one actually agrees with. As long as people don't themselves become practitioners, the universe isn't really paying them much attention and whether they slip up or don't even try barely matters except in extreme cases. But I just informed thousands of people, so maybe there is an extreme case or maybe it just adds up and the universe compensates by throwing bad luck my way or outright destroying me.

The other reason is that there are Others. It's usually a catchall term for nonhumans, but you don't really fit that categorization. A lot are malevolent, but most can't hurt innocents. Non-practitioners are protected, people who don't even know all this exists are more so. Combine that with the karma, and there's a very strong rule against going public like I apparently just did.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm sorry. I can come up with an explanation for everyone - that it's a private religious ritual from your home, and that listening to those is considered somehow rude. You're now in trouble for mistakes I make? What's a mistake?

Permalink Mark Unread

You and however many other people. I'm not in much trouble, yet, because none of you have become practitioners. This would be worse back in my world, because anyone who wanted could awaken the people I told risk-free. If I'm literally the only person who knows how to do that, it's safer than it could be.

A mistake is anything the spirits consider wrong; this has a general theme of betrayal and is heavily influenced by cultures that died out thousands of years ago. I could explain some details, but at the moment it's...maybe not stable, but at least not currently harmful. You can act as you normally would without worrying about this. The accident with the boats might have counted if they were close relatives and you did it on purpose because you wanted them dead, but it takes a lot for a non-practitioner to get a karma score.

A religious ritual, that could work. If people think human prayers involve threatening our gods, that's not weirder than them thinking synthetic fabrics generate heat.

The other problem is that you can now be attacked by Others. I haven't seen any sentient ones since arriving here, and I suspect there aren't as many. But if something decides to cause an avalanche, the universe won't go as far out of its way to prevent that from hitting you as it would for innocents. For me it wouldn't step in any more than it would for a natural one. And there are probably some actively malevolent ones. if your children have stories about monsters under the bed, there are probably Others that fit into that mold.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh. That sounds...worse than I expected. Alright, I'll tell everyone that mortal religious rituals involve threatening their gods.

 

We have no stories about monsters under the beds, we grew up in Valinor. Is this an Outer Lands thing? 

Permalink Mark Unread

Valinor is probably the exception there. I thought it was an everywhere thing.

Others tend to be more powerful and last longer if there's a theme or some other kind of consistency. Imitating human concepts is common, and the Others attached to scarier concepts gain more from it. They can be fought even without magic, and not all are hostile, but it's a risk.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well. Halls. I'm sorry I didn't think to mention that even with the winds as bad as they are here we can hear for a few miles, and when it's calm much much farther than that. We can't really afford too much more hostile forces at work in this mess - is there a way to win them over?

Permalink Mark Unread

Collectively, not really. They don't tend to take sides in messes. The exceptions are on an individual basis, and I doubt there'll be enough Others who are people for exceptions to be common. I did have a plan that might conceivably help affect spirits and Others in general, but I wound up here before finding out whether or not it was possible. And I can't try it here.

Case by case, working with Others is very possible. That's what I was trying to do with the ice elemental, and I've got a few that are more thoroughly bound than that one would have been even if it had worked.

Permalink Mark Unread

And how do you bind them?

Permalink Mark Unread

It varies. They might agree, for payment or as part of a larger plot or just because of shared goals. If it's by force, it might come down to figuring out this specific Other's weakness and throwing it at them. Sometimes literally. I have it easier, working with nature spirits, sometimes it's less obvious.

I'm not really sure how much detail to go into here. If you awaken you'd need this kind of information, but otherwise I'm leaning toward having as little of this out there as possible.

Permalink Mark Unread

You have my word I won't share it lightly. And you've said 'awakens' several times now - what does that mean?

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, that's just the name of the ritual for becoming a practitioner. I'm not sure whether or not all the components exist in this world, but making it work is probably an option. For a very few trustworthy people.

For binding Others, it's not innately secret the same way the existence of magic is. It's just that five minutes ago I didn't know I had been found out, and haven't thought through whether keeping as much as possible secret might be instrumentally valuable.

Permalink Mark Unread

How did you learn about all of this? How widely known is it within your world? Do you regret knowing? If we had your abilities, would they let us cross the Ice?

Permalink Mark Unread

I got it from my family. Most cities have people who know, but in small enough numbers that they mostly all know who the others are. could cross the Ice, but that's dependent on resources that took a lot of time and effort to collect. Some of which almost certainly aren't here to be found. I don't know of a way to get this many people across.
Whether I regret knowing... I don't like the world behind my world. Half the time it's thoughtlessly enforcing rules and half the time it's malevolent. Knowing put me and my family in the line of fire, in a way we wouldn't have been otherwise. But I can't say I'd rather live alongside a world like that and not know about it.

Permalink Mark Unread

She nods. What resources? Can we help you collect them? Is this world thoughtless and malevolent in the same way, can you tell?

Permalink Mark Unread

It's similar as far as I can tell. Since my magic works at all, I'd expect the weird ideas of right and wrong to come along with it, but I can't tell that just by looking.

Of the things I use to fly, the hardest to get were collected from fast-moving rivers and another was a magic item I traded for and don't know how to make. Also the heat elemental I said you'd have more use for than me, to avoid freezing on the way.
Some of those I might be able to find in Valinor. None of them are likely to be here.

Permalink Mark Unread

I see. Are they damaged? Is that why you can't fly again? Or is it the reason you gave us earlier?

Permalink Mark Unread

I could fly right now. The only damaged equipment is the outer layer and I wouldn't need that for ordinary flight. I just surround myself in water and move that. Limiting factors are that I can't bring all that much with me, I'd need the heat back to fly anywhere water would freeze, and I can't really picture taking a hundred thousand trips to fly you across. And that doing it where people can see would be a bad idea, in case there's anyone who doesn't know yet.

Sorry about misleading you earlier, I was trying to hide having magic at all.

Permalink Mark Unread

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

The thing that immediately comes to mind is flying to the people who abandoned us here and letting them know we're crossing the ice and they can meet us with food or with swords, their choice, but they're going to pay for everyone we lose along the way so maybe they should try to make sure it's not too many. But you don't know anything about the politics and that's quite an ask. 

 

Permalink Mark Unread

I would be more than happy to tell them their sabotage didn't work. I doubt they'd be directly dangerous if I'm prepared. Less than happy to let them see the flight.

Permalink Mark Unread

I can't see them shooting a messenger, but if you have preparations you can make, all the better. Not sure how they wouldn't see the flight. We can see things about fifty miles off pretty clearly, and they'd see something hot coming in across the water.

Permalink Mark Unread

Then there probably isn't a safe way to do that.

When are you planning to leave? I could try to collect whatever spirits I can and hopefully meet you back here with at the very least more heat, assuming the Valar don't decide to keep me there. No guarantees of finding anything, though.

Permalink Mark Unread

Couple months.

....if you teach me how to do your spirits, I can do it in a way that doesn't reflect badly on your reputation, right? What does that take, just being generally upstanding and honorable?

Permalink Mark Unread

I wish. Upstanding and honorable according to a culture that otherwise no longer exists as understood by an aggregate mass of spirits that aren't even sentient. We can't lie, for instance. Harder for some people than others, but all of us have to keep at least one secret. Sometimes the rules makes sense, like how it's a bad idea to take something you don't have a claim to, and sometimes it doesn't. People are almost interchangeable by these rules; the reputations belong to bloodlines. That's one of the big ones I object to.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh. Hmm. How - directly bloodlines? If I just plan not to have children, am I protected? Or are cousins involved, in which case awakening anyone in the family fucks all of us over forever?

Permalink Mark Unread

It's direct. If you never have children it'd be a bloodline of just you, unless a parent or grandparent also awakened in which case anyone directly down from them would be contributing to the same pool. But it's usually only actions taken after becoming a practitioner that count very much, so even if everyone awakened you wouldn't necessarily start out doomed.

More doomed. Sorry.

Permalink Mark Unread

She giggles. Got it. Can you use cold spirits to hide your body heat, so you can fly out there?

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe. It'd depend on which elementals I happen to find, but that's definitely a doable thing.

Heat's the only problem, they wouldn't otherwise be able to see me until I land or watch me leave after? I wouldn't be able to, but relying on that would be the same mistake twice.

Permalink Mark Unread

Heat's the only thing we can see in the dark. You might want to hike in from a few miles out, but no one's going to be watching for something with no heat flying across the ocean.

Permalink Mark Unread

Good. I'll try, then.

Catching a new ice elemental might be a bit of a wait, even here. And I really should use the heat elemental to help in the binding, since I'll need to take it back anyway to fly without freezing solid. Is it in use for anything important yet?

Permalink Mark Unread

No, I can definitely get it back. Let me go tell everyone about your strange Mannish religion.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thanks. I guess if you've never met humans before they won't have any reason not to buy it.

But if they do believe it and notice that miracles happen when asked for? Oh well, they'll have heard exactly one intelligible "prayer" and that one didn't end up with magic behind it. The rest can just be in English.

Permalink Mark Unread

We haven't. That's honestly what I thought it might be, so - She turns around. Later.

Permalink Mark Unread

Amber resets the bait. One advantage of being here, whatever turns up will probably be useful for disguising heat. This time it gets a more detailed diagram drawn ahead of time.

Permalink Mark Unread

She heads back to camp and explains about the stranger and her strange religion. "Men," she concludes, and everyone nods gravely.

Father, none of that's true, but there's magic at work such that more people knowing it is a problem. How do you want to proceed?

Permalink Mark Unread

There's nothing much to do at the moment but wait, so she starts back toward the camp for lack of anywhere better to be. After setting another spirit attractant with the other medium-size water elemental a short distance away from the first.

Permalink Mark Unread

I want to know it, he says instantly. 

So she explains.

Permalink Mark Unread

Collecting the sole source of reasonable heat actually sounds incredibly tempting. Fortunately, it's important for reasons.

They'll probably be up to date on explanations by the time she returns. Humans are slow.

Permalink Mark Unread

She brings the fabric with the heat elementals back. I told my King, everyone else got the story we agreed on. He's not going to do anything that hurts your reputation, don't worry.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thanks. I was a bit worried you'd take advantage of the fact that there's nothing coming down on your head if you don't go out of your way to keep my secret.

Permalink Mark Unread

You offered to help us, and gave us the heat thing even though you can make use of it.

Permalink Mark Unread

I could always replace that, eventually. The only reason it's attached to this thing in particular is so I could point and say "I have no idea how to replace that" without lying. And you were the ones about to cross the ocean on ice.

If this were my world, I'd expect someone or other to take advantage of the situation.

Permalink Mark Unread

She giggles. I think we're all decent people. To oversimplify a bit, a little while ago there was a way across the Ice but you had to be a dishonest, amoral asshole to take it, so everyone who was, did.

Permalink Mark Unread

Ah. Nice and self-selecting.

...I am more and more looking forward to passing on an angry message and letting them worry about how.

Permalink Mark Unread

They'll have a lot to worry about once they realize we're alive.

Permalink Mark Unread

I thought you said they expected you to turn back, not die. Or do you mean alive and relevant?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes. Alive and if they want to change that they no longer get to do so passively.

Permalink Mark Unread

It'd be a lot better if even that weren't an option. Since it sounds like they'll already be fighting a war and you will have just come from a humanly impossible journey, if they pick swords it doesn't sound likely to end well.

Permalink Mark Unread

I really don't think they will. There's a difference between selfish enough to strand people in an impossible position and forget about them, and ruthless enough to go out and murder them as they walk by, and I knew them well enough to know they'd do this so I'm pretty sure I'm right they won't do that.

Permalink Mark Unread

I believe you, it's just an awful lot to stake.

Permalink Mark Unread

If you can fly disguised, you could also look out and warn us if it looks like they're going with plan: swords and then we can decide what to do.

Permalink Mark Unread

That I can do.

Speaking of disguised, there's something I should test before there's anything riding on it. Can you look away for five seconds and then back?

Permalink Mark Unread

She turns around, counts to five, turns back around.

Permalink Mark Unread

There is an unusually uninteresting thump sound shortly after three, and no one present when she turns around.

Permalink Mark Unread

Huh. You still there? she thinks, and finds her immediately. Wow, cool!! You're invisible!

Permalink Mark Unread

Kind of!

Amber reappears as soon as Irissë thinks at her, lying undignifiedly on the ground. She gets up Unnoticeable would be closer, and that was unnoticeable to you specifically. If anyone else had happened to be looking—they weren't, I checked—they would have seen me fall over for no apparent reason. I wanted to check it against your senses, didn't realize your telepathy would break it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh. Sorry. 

Permalink Mark Unread

No, that's good to know. Since I'll likely be trying it on your cousins later, and conceivably on the Enemy, much better to find out now. I think they'd have a harder time getting through it, too.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh good. Why?

Permalink Mark Unread

You knew there was supposed to be someone there, and you even knew who once you thought about it. If I'm sneaking away from whoever they send to follow me, there'll be less of a connection for them to reestablish.

Permalink Mark Unread

Makes sense. What cool powers. I'm sad I can't use them without the doom thing.

Permalink Mark Unread

I said earlier you wouldn't necessarily start out doomed, but on second thought it is very possible that the regular doom could count for both. Which would be bad.

Permalink Mark Unread

...how many people could you fly over in one trip?

Permalink Mark Unread

Lifting capacity is a few tons, maybe more if it's slower, but most of that has to be water. I could take a passenger, maybe a couple of them if it was urgent. It'd be cramped. And if it's people, breathing is a complication.

Permalink Mark Unread

Hmm, okay. What were you doing with that thing?

Permalink Mark Unread

Cheating.

Eh, whatever. Irissë knows Definitely Too Much already.

I have a magic item for that. Traded for it from someone who used it for diving, which I assume is what it's for. No idea how it's made.

Permalink Mark Unread

Okay. Well. I should check with the King about the actual content of the message, but that's the plan I'm currently leaning toward.

Permalink Mark Unread

Good. I like this plan.

 

Presently, something does turn up inside one of the diagrams. One of the few areas where local eyesight isn't better: can't see magic. Given the surroundings, it's probably something useful.

Think I got a bite. Um, you probably shouldn't be around while I try to bind it; that might conflict with the cover story.

Permalink Mark Unread

Right. Heading back. See you!

Permalink Mark Unread

Let me know what the king says the message is!

 

This attempt at a binding involves a lot fewer words to overhear than the last one. Anyone who does hear might recognize the same tone, but the content is all in unintelligible English.

Permalink Mark Unread

The King says the message is "we are crossing the Helcaraxe. No one has died yet, which means it's not too late yet for you to set this right." Irissë solemnly promises to convey it. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Capturing the spirit actually works this time, with the better preparation. Getting it as secured as the originals takes longer, but this isn't time-sensitive on an immediate scale. It's not even freezing, thanks to the opposite-of-cold generator being used for the binding. Once that's done, she has the new spirit assemble a thin sheet of ice and instructs it on what it's preventing.

Should probably test this against an actual person with the infrared vision.

Does the telepathy work at range? If not, no harm in trying.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yep. Forty miles easy. You can do hundreds if you know people well enough.

Permalink Mark Unread

Wow. Lucky.

I think your idea worked, but can you confirm it before I go be visible at a second crowd of people with super-senses?

Permalink Mark Unread

Sure. What am I looking for, are you flying already?

Permalink Mark Unread

Just a minute.

Checking that no one else is currently looking at her...nope. Can't know no one else happens to be looking directly above, unfortunately.

The machinery assembles quickly. Even when the water's warm it's not quite comfortable, out here in the middle of always winter and they probably don't have Christmas, but it'll do. She ascends, in a human-sized water droplet surrounded by an almost decorative sheet of ice.

I'm up. Can you see me?

Permalink Mark Unread

Nope.  Oh, wait, I can see where I assume you are. You're not the same temperature as the outside air, but it doesn't look like a person, just a spot.

Permalink Mark Unread

Suspicious enough that they'd connect it with the mysteriously appearing messenger? I can try to adjust the temperature, up or down?

Permalink Mark Unread

Down, but I don't know what ambient air temperature on their side of the lake is.

Permalink Mark Unread

Good point. Probably higher than this, if they're living there on purpose.

Permalink Mark Unread

Doubt they'll connect it to you. They probably have a lot on their plates, and I actually expect they don't look at the ocean much.

Permalink Mark Unread

All right.

Is there a final version of what I'm telling them, or is it your line about meeting you with swords or food? Anything I should make sure not to say?

Permalink Mark Unread

Uh, similar content, less confrontational, message is 'we are crossing the Helcaraxe. No one has died yet, which means it's not too late yet for you to set this right.'

Permalink Mark Unread

That does sound less confrontational, but if they don't have the boats anymore it means it's going to be too late by the time there's anything they can do. That doesn't decrease the odds of them cooperating?

Permalink Mark Unread

They definitely don't have the boats anymore, they set them on fire. I think their reaction will be valuable even if they actually can't save everyone.

Permalink Mark Unread

I can pass it on.

And flying. Flying is the best use of, well, a lot of things.

She flies low enough and slow enough at first to get a view of the ice on the way. It's even worse than it sounded; half the time it's free-floating floes without much continent to speak of underneath. They're planning to simply walk across? Maybe some descriptions of it from the air will at least help with planning the trip.

After accelerating to speeds for crossing an ocean at, she flies east and periodically checks for lights denoting the presence of people. (Do they have an east? Oceanward. This can be east.)

Permalink Mark Unread

There are no lights. There are the sounds of a fight going on.

Permalink Mark Unread

Seeing infrared is one thing. But seeing only the one subset, did they just not bother? Oh well. Toward the fight, then, watching for any suddenly appearing connection marking her as having been spotted.

Is it obvious who's fighting and on which side?

Permalink Mark Unread

Both sides are humanoid; one like the people she met on the other shore, except armored and bloodied and exhausted-looking; the others are shorter, mutilated, paler-skinned, mostly hairless.

Permalink Mark Unread

That answers that, then. Hovering above the battlefield, the next question is now what.

Humans and presumably other humanoids contain a lot of water. Messily killing some of the Enemy's minions one by one without being spotted is...probably doable. Also really bad karma: this is technically someone else's fight no matter how justified and joining unprovoked would cost. And it would magnify the risk of someone from this camp figuring out too much.

Battles with swords and armor are not a normal thing to stumble upon! Are there people about to get stabbed and in immediate need of an opponent disappearing? At least those extreme cases would be worth it, if there's enough warning in this kind of battle.

Permalink Mark Unread

With no lighting, it's really hard to see who might be in a position of extreme need. The Elves don't look good, but they're not about to be massacred either.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, even with light that would have been a bit of a long shot. It's not like she's from a culture where all women are brought up from a young age to be able to interpret the events in medieval-style melee combat at a glance.

 


On second thought, this doesn't have to be directly fatal. If it's the allied side doing the actual killing, that's at least less wrong from the spirits' point of view.
She sends down a water elemental, incorporeal, to go from one designated target to the next and blind them. 

It's not the most gruesome thing on the battlefield. It's a battlefield. But she knows exactly what she's doing to the insides of their eyeballs, and that's very far from making it more tolerable to think about.

Permalink Mark Unread

The fighting doesn't end with anyone declaring a retreat, or anything like that; eventually the exhausted Elves just seem to run out of orcs to kill, and the orcs that remain seem to decide to pack up and go home. At which point one of the Elves apparently orders a charge and races after them.

Permalink Mark Unread

It probably isn't worth taking on more bad karma just so the Enemy will have a handful fewer soldiers later. And at least now the boat-stealing cousins aren't in as much immediate danger as before.

 

She follows above the charge anyway.

Permalink Mark Unread

The man leading it is very good with a sword, and very reckless, and now quite far out in front of his host, and there are more enemies racing at him from Angband, glowing fiery against the night.

Permalink Mark Unread

And it's obstructed enough that he doesn't have a clear line of sight no matter how good his vision is. Unless he can see the glow from where he is, which, maybe.

Awfully convenient that the telepathy doesn't give away a direction.
You should rejoin your army. The Enemy's got reinforcements coming straight at you.

Permalink Mark Unread

That stops him from running, at least; he whirls around, presumably looking for the source, and then stays warily in place until his army catches up with him. By then they do have a light of sight on the glowing creatures streaking at them.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's glowing creatures? They look almost exactly like Balrogs but without the wings. This is a lot more intimidating than soldiers carrying fire. She could give updates on where they are and how many, but with the kind of vision the people here have it'd be redundant.

Is the army retreating, or is there about to be another round?

Permalink Mark Unread

The man who was ready to charge out without his army looks disinclined to retreat. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Okay, then.

What's really weird is that the fire monsters aren't Others. They look exactly the same to a practitioner's sight as when she briefly stops using it. Apparently this world just has those. Inconvenient, because if they were fire spirits a binding would at least be a scaled-up version of a known problem.

If the creatures happen to have eyes vulnerable to the same trick that worked on the humanoids, they can lose them.

Permalink Mark Unread

Doesn't seem to do much.

Permalink Mark Unread

Makes sense. Her elemental was out of its, well, element. Next up: any water around to see what happens when a creature gets doused?

Permalink Mark Unread

There isn't any nearby, but it's cloudy and could be induced to rain.

Permalink Mark Unread

Not with this set of equipment. Anything in the clouds isn't currently liquid.

 

Either of the two larger water spirits can provide enough force to hold her bubble in its shape and in the air. If a regular-sized drop separates, has its shape maintained the same way, and several tons' worth of force continuously accelerate it toward a monster, how does the creature react? Better have it start from somewhere other than the floating sphere, in case anyone looks for where the gunshot crack came from.

Permalink Mark Unread

That knocks it backwards hard; the fiery glowing briefly goes out, and it lashes out at random. The Elves press this apparent advantage, but they're still overmatched.

Permalink Mark Unread

It didn't penetrate? Really should have; either the target is even tougher than it looks or it's the recently earned bad luck coming around already.

More of the same, then, with less spherical drops that might be more likely to break through its skin. This is easily repeatable; it can have one shot after another until she thinks of something else.

Permalink Mark Unread

They're more denting the thing than penetrating it. Maybe it doesn't have anything that can be thought of as skin.

Permalink Mark Unread

This would be easier if she could shoot it with more than one thing at a time.

But hitting it this hard is doing something; maybe if the next order is to just hold it down the people who were fighting it on purpose will get an opening.

Permalink Mark Unread

They do manage to batter it pretty hard. It has serious and visible injuries, now, white-hot and not-exactly-bleeding out across the ground. 

And then it explodes into a fireball.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's hard to tell from up here who's injured and who's dead after the explosion.

Doing the same to hold off the other creatures is probably the best move in any case. Whichever of the remaining monsters is outmatching its opponents by the most can have a bead of water pressing down with several tons behind it. (Seriously, how is this less damaging than swords. Something's up.)

Permalink Mark Unread

The Elves are now wary about killing the things, and warily hold off when another one gets battered to the ground.

Permalink Mark Unread

If there's an injured one, she might let this one up while she checks whether their not-exactly-blood is water-based. Attacking it from the inside can only be better.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes, whatever it is is water-like in the relevant sense.

Permalink Mark Unread

In that case, the overworked water spirit gets ordered to seize the liquid dripping out of the monster, and the adjacent liquid inside the monster, and tear it in every direction possible.

While the monster's opponents are as far away as they're likely to get, just in case having all its probably-not-exactly-blood-vessels ruptured simultaneously both works and is explosively fatal.

Permalink Mark Unread

It does! Boom! And now the other ones are fleeing. 

The Elves come back to gather their wounded and dead.

Permalink Mark Unread

To show up now, or to wait until they get back to their camp....

Well, at least one of them is going to be able to connect her voice with the mysteriously interfered-with monsters. Is the one who had to be warned to stop running ahead of his army still alive?

Permalink Mark Unread

He is. He's helping retrieve his injured fellows.

Permalink Mark Unread

Then there's no advantage to waiting.


She lands as silently as possible, breaking the connection whenever one of them might have noticed her, and makes sure there's nothing out of the ordinary visible. Then the temperature disguise can come down.

Hello, she attempts. I have a message for Fëanáro. Are you with him?

Permalink Mark Unread

They start.

"You're speaking to him," the one who'd run out in front says warily.

Permalink Mark Unread

HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE, she doesn't say.  YOUR COUSINS WHO YOU LEFT TO DIE  can stay likewise unclarified. It'd be genealogically incorrect anyway.

 

It's from some relatives of yours. "We are crossing the Helcaraxë. No one has died yet, which means it's not too late yet for you to set this right."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see," he says. "Tell them not to do that. Once we've won the war we will go break everyone out of Valinor and since they are so determined to be a liability they shall have to wait until then." 

Permalink Mark Unread

Amber sticks with the telepathy. This isn't the time for testing fluency in a new language, even if she did mostly understand that.

You are a lot more confident in being able to win alone than they are with both groups. Determination I'll grant, they have a lot of that. Was that why you stranded them, because you thought they'd be a liability?

Permalink Mark Unread

I stranded them because they have a number of members who openly declared that they desired to reach this continent only so they could undermine me by any means available to them, and because they do not acknowledge me as having any authority over them, and because a significant share of my resources were constantly deployed, whenever we were in close proximity, on ensuring that no two idiots started a fistfight that ended in a civil war. And because my half-brother either decided to claim the title of True High King of the Noldor at the moment when it was most necessary we come to an agreement on transportation, or else has so little control over his people that he was taken by surprise when they all spontaneously chose that moment to do it. And because they already delayed me by several months for reasons that had no prospect of changing and time was and remains of the essence. 

Tell them to go back to Valinor and let us win the war and then we will come and rescue them. 

Permalink Mark Unread

They know that's what you expected them to do and they're already not doing it. I'll tell them what you said, but don't expect it to change anyone's mind. The other option being to stay on a continent run by the kind of gods that throw around Doom without aiming very carefully.

You went to some extreme lengths to get those ships in the first place; you could have guessed the others might take extreme risks to get across without them.

Permalink Mark Unread

We don't have the means to help them. We lit all the ships on fire.

Permalink Mark Unread

So I heard.

If everyone involved is very lucky, they'll get out of the mess that left them in without losing anyone, and you'll have a chance to put things right then.

Permalink Mark Unread

 If you are aware already that their course of action is reckless and dangerous, that I counsel them against it, and that I cannot aid them in undertaking it, then what do you gain from telling me that they will regard me as responsible for it? All right. I have taken note that the people who keep trying to start a civil war with me regard me as responsible for the deaths from negligence that will assuredly result from their next action, one which I am trying to dissuade them from. Did they specify the means by which I will be held responsible, or did they leave that to my imagination?

Permalink Mark Unread

They're not planning on warring against you, if that's what you mean.

I didn't ask for a survey of whether they blame you for their situation more or less than the Valar, but you do in fact make the list. What they're hoping is that when they arrive you'll be prepared to meet them with food and supplies, since they will have just come from across the Helcaraxë after all. 

Permalink Mark Unread

If there is any chance at all that my firm refusal to provide food or supplies deters them from attempting a stupid dangerous crossing that will not help the war and that they should not be making, I do them no favors by promising them food once they make it. Also, we don't have any and under the conditions cannot grow any. Convey to my half-brother that I would not see him throw his peoples' lives away for this.

Permalink Mark Unread

If you don't have food you don't have food, but I have enough confidence in your capabilities to still think your assistance would be worth more than nothing. Deterrence doesn't come into it. I doubt you could deter them if you tried, with the possible exception of threatening to massacre them all.

Your half-brother's people definitely think whatever amount of resources and attention you spend being wary of each other would be outweighed by the reinforcements against the Enemy. Is there some reason unknown to them why the Enemy having more enemies wouldn't help the war?

Permalink Mark Unread

Coordination matters more than numbers, my time matters more than almost anything else, and the war may not be winnable through force of arms at all, I have no idea if any of these principles are unknown to my half-brother.

Permalink Mark Unread

The third one is. If they know the others they disagree with your assessment of the tradeoffs.


...no one on the other side mentioned this question, but do you have the concept of comparative advantage here?

Permalink Mark Unread

The concept you're referencing isn't familiar.

Permalink Mark Unread

I've heard you're the best at practically everything—except, in their telling, at being king—and also the best chance at winning the war if it turns out it can't be done by force. Where I'm from, someone that good at everything would wind up specialized wherever they're the most irreplaceable. Even if they'd be the best king imaginable, they'd delegate ruling in their name to whoever's second-best and focus on doing whatever someone else can't. Like finding a way to fight a war other than force of arms. They definitely wouldn't be out personally fighting on the front lines, let alone further. Not because they're too valuable to risk, though they might be, just because their time matters more than almost anything else. They'd be wasted as a soldier even if they're a better fighter than anyone else available. And yet here you are.

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The Enemy killed my father.

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I'm sorry to hear that.

You have more than enough reason to hate him. If personally sticking sharp bits of metal in his servants isn't the most effective way of fighting him, is revenge going to make you do it anyway?

 

Also, that's a very understandable reason to want to oppose the Enemy. If only there were some other group with a similar reason, it's good to know Fëanáro would be sympathetic. Right.

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Obviously I am pursuing the most effective avenues of destroying him available to me, and learning as I go.

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You're here, fighting in the front. Maybe this is the most effective means you have available at the moment, and you're planning to switch to weapons development or something as soon as you have an executable idea. But if that's true it's not obvious.

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Or I can think about weapons development while using weapons to do things that I might eventually need better weapons to do better. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe. But it didn't sound like you're here today for research purposes. Maybe you could even think about that while also thinking about long-term strategy and politics and whatever else you have on your plate. 

It's not that it's impossible to handle everything yourself. It's that other people can do some of it and leave you free to do whatever has the biggest gap between you and the second-best person.

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That's fine advice in general. My half-brother was not just inferior at everything but actively a drain on my attention and resources.

Permalink Mark Unread

Then let him be a drain on the attention of whoever you delegate leadership to. Resources this won't help with.

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I still don't know what you want me to do. If there were a way to pass safely over the Helcaraxe we'd have done it ourselves. 

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If that was the general you, I don't think anyone expects you to be able to help ahead of time. Just to provide support when they get here to whatever degree you can. If nothing else, sending me means they'll know ahead of time that that won't mean food.

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All of the plants are dead because there is no light. They can eat orcs; that is what we are doing.

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That part is actually going to be bad news. I hoped you'd have found some means other than relying on what the Enemy sends you.

If not food, shelter? Warmth? Medical attention? They will have just arrived across the Ice; food won't be the only thing they lack.

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Whatever borders we've secured will be open to anyone who isn't actively expressing a desire to overthrow and kill me, and they can have shelter and medical care because anyone can. 

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I'll pass that on.

Anything else you want to say to them, aside from "don't"?

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They aren't needed here, we'll win faster without them, and we will get them out of Valinor as soon as it is feasible.

 

Given that they're going to do it stupidly, I would I had the means to help them do it safely. 

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Oh, right, the means that he burned. Those means.

 

All right. Next time you hear from them it should be in person.

 

She turns to leave. Direction isn't actually very important; just a chance to not be seen.

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They start heading back towards the lake.

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Is she being followed? Their eyesight is unfairly better, but if they're paying attention a connection will snap into place or strengthen. And those can be severed if they have to be.

Once out of sight, it's fairly simple to reassemble the bubble and take off.

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They seem surprisingly disinterested, but perhaps they're distracted. 

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Then it's back oceanward. With a break for food. This was supposed to be a trip of indeterminate length but no more than a few days, so being the only person who needs to eat on a planet incapable of sustaining life is going to be a problem soon. But not yet.

The ice looks just as forbidding as it did the first time around. She lands far enough to be probably out of sight and walks in to the camp.

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"Hey. How'd it go?"

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"They took the message more or less as expected."  Fëanáro says to stay in Valinor and they'll rescue you after winning the war because you'd only slow them down, I told him that really doesn't look like it's going to happen, and he said that if you insist on being that reckless he wishes he had a way to help. He didn't say he wishes he hadn't burned the way to help. They don't have food to share, but at least won't be starting a fight if no one here does. Except if people are still calling for him to be deposed and killed, he says those people won't be welcome in whatever borders his people are holding at the time.

Also I probably saved Fëanáro's life and might have convinced him to let someone else handle the political power.

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"Huh. Okay. Well, it's not as if we were expecting better from him. Do they control much of the coast? Will his people be holding meaningful land by the time we arrive?"

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They expect to by then. For now, they've been fighting enough that they were literally mid-battle when I arrived. I don't think controlling land is a concept that applies yet.

Oh, the Enemy has giant fire monsters of some kind. Does that sound familiar at all?

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"The valaraukar. I've heard of them. Halls, what a mess. And thank you. It was a very good thing you did."

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I did end up using magic where they could see it. The effects, if not me being the one to do it. They'll have put two and two together, and whether that adds up to enough I have no idea.

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"Enough to get you in trouble, you mean?"

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Yeah. If that happened in my world, observers would be wondering why the monsters fell over and exploded, who had done it, and how. After a candidate appears out of nowhere, just how. But people are very good at not guessing too much; if there's any other explanation they'll latch onto that first and if there isn't they'll file it away as just weird. Between people being more perceptive here and more willing to believe that people have powers, I might be in trouble.

But if I hadn't helped more of them would be dead.

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"I'm glad you helped.  Maybe I'll feel differently by the time we've been through this torture but I don't want them dead. And I'm sure they went for 'friendly Maia', that's the obvious guess."

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A friendly Maia who carries messages for their relatives.

What's a Maia?

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Minor powers, like the Valar but, ah, less. They could help with a fight and, if they'd decided to aid us, convey a message. They could also have killed Fëanáro on the spot and he presumably knew it but he has an odd sense he's invincible.

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Are the valaraukar Maiar? Fëanáro and his people were putting up a fight against them. Losing, but it wasn't all one-sided.

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Yeah. And my cousins have all kinds of magic weapons - that's one of the things darling uncle's good at - they can carry their weight in a fight. For a while. I'm glad you did something, they definitely wouldn't have won.

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Even if none of them noticed anything, I earned some bad karma for fighting. The spirits would have seen that as an unprovoked attack. Still, one person accruing bad luck has to be worth it.

And that was a few lives, if that was worth it then this has to be, it's at least a thousand and possibly as many as ten.


I had an idea while flying over the ice. We'd have to run it by the king and get volunteers, but it could help cross. How good is your hearing?

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Very good. The light of Aman is gone now but it enhanced us physically in every respect. And out here there's less of the noises of a city to filter. Why?

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If I give some of you magic, your hearing might actually be the limiting factor on a plan to get across the Ice. It'd mean more bad karma for everyone involved, especially me, but if it works it'll cut casualties by a lot. How far away would you be able to hear someone who wanted to be heard?

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Does osanwë count? Can they amplify their voice with magic?

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No, and untested but probably. It does have to be them, not some facsimile, but if it's just making them louder I don't see why that wouldn't count.

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Then one could be heard over a distance of a hundred miles.

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Then this might actually work.

Awakening in the first place could be tricky. The ritual needs a bunch of small items that I don't have with me and might not even exist here.

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You want to teach us your world's magic?

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I don't want to.

But if I teach at least a couple of you, and we have a reasonable amount of luck, it could cut casualties by a lot. Maybe all the way to zero. I don't think I can consistently object to my magic's ethical priorities and justify not doing this.

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Thank you. ...are there things we can do, once we have magic, that'd reflect well on you? We owe you that much, at least, and we're pretty disciplined, even if there's arbitrary rules we can abide by them.

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It's possible to go out of your way to accrue good karma. Making important promises and keeping them is the big option. But it's usually a bad idea, because there's always the risk that you fail, and it works out to a net negative. Better to just keep it in mind and conform when possible, it'll build up slowly that way. I'll go over the rules in detail with anyone I awaken.

 

The other problem is the existing doom. If the spirits heard that and decided to pay attention, you might all already have loads of bad karma. Which would increase the odds of getting stranded in the middle of the Ice, or any other possible disaster.

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We really can't let the cousins anywhere near this. They'd take the making important promises approach and it'd be a disaster for everyone. They already kind of have, and it already kind of is. The Doom is a problem. This'd make it worse?

Permalink Mark Unread

MaybeDepends on how it interacts. My guess is that it wouldn't. When Fëanáro and company were fighting valaraukar nothing looked at all magical. That's one of the things a practitioner can do, is see magic. So if the spirits consider enchanted weapons to be nonmagical weapons that just happen to be more effective, maybe they also consider a Doom from the Valar to be separate from karma.

How does a Doom work, is it a prediction or a cause or what? If it, say, made everything in the world decide it dislikes you, then that might include the spirits. Then it would definitely count and awakening could make you twice as doomed.

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We don't know. No one had ever committed murder before so no one had ever been Doomed before. Parts of it were definitely a cause, like one part was 'the Valar will fence Valinor against you' and they've now proceeded to make the mountains taller, but the other parts, harder to say.

Permalink Mark Unread

Inconvenient, but much better than if there were a long history of Dooms to compare.

That sounds more like a prediction than a cause, and barely even that, but regardless it doesn't sound relevant. Karma—good or bad—doesn't guarantee specific outcomes. So it's probably safe, but maybe the first volunteers should be people who don't have or plan to have children. Just in case.

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For sure. If we're ourselves family, does that complicate things?

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Only if one is directly descended from another. Then all the karma would go to the ancestor, and if they die later the descendant would inherit it. Good or bad; if the Doom doesn't affect karma it won't start out so negative it can't be worked off.
If family means siblings or cousins or something, that would just count as separate bloodlines.

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I was thinking that Findekáno and I should both do it, but then if our father later wants to there might be complications.

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Not a lot more so than if one of you did and then he wanted to. He'd just wind up with two existing karma balances being absorbed into the family's instead of one, and would have to designate an heir at some point.

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All right. If there's a chance it can save everyone on the Ice I think it's worth the risks.

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Thought you might say that.

It'll take at least two people, we could maybe do it with one but there'd be no margin for error. And whoever does it is going to be permanently giving up the chance for a major power source common to a lot of practitioners. But it's one that no one would be using until after getting across the Ice anyway.

The immediate hurdle is the ingredients that might not even exist in this world. If I run off a list can you tell me what you'd be able to find?

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Go ahead.

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I'm going to have to look this up.

Looking it up apparently entails using a device with about a hundred tiny flat press buttons and a screen four inches square. It looks insanely complicated but starts displaying writing.

Crystal, myrrh, oil, spice, iron, dagger, hourglass, dreamcatcher, silver skull, coin, rose, food, alcohol, candles, incense.

Permalink Mark Unread

No idea what an hourglass or a dreamcatcher is, we don't have silver skulls but we have silver and skulls, what's a coin? Everything else is no problem. Uh, food in small quantities.

Permalink Mark Unread

Irissë gets some osanwë depictions of hourglasses and dreamcatchers and money, along with what they're needed for. The relevant part of the ritual involves what is essentially word associations, so it might be problematic if the first thing it represents to them is "what is that supposed to be."

You can get a rose? I thought that one would be impossible here.

Food is supposed to be more specific—molasses, milk, honey, some kind of vegetable, meat—but we don't have to follow the steps exactly and that's probably the easiest to substitute. It will disappear during the ritual, but there's no minimum quantity.

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I'm sure someone kept some flowers. They're probably dead, but - people were pretty sentimental. We don't have the means to blow glass here, and it'd take a long time to set up.

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Fudging the ritual is allowed. Any timekeeping devices at all?

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...the stars?

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Can't really put those in a diagram on the ground.

You said you had candles, maybe we could improvise something with those. Some people on my world used to keep time by how fast candles burned.

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Sure, we could do that. Or songs that usually last the length of a festival? Can't put those on the ground either.

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It does have to be an object. If you have recordings or sheet music, that could do it. Especially if that's what the songs are primarily for.

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We have songs that are for that, but we don't write music or have, ah, recordings. Hmmm. 

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We can just mark some candles. Equate a length of candle to the time to the length of part of a song and you've got a timekeeping device. 

And if that doesn't actually work, well, the ritual didn't specify an accurate hourglass.

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Got it. It'll take me a while to get all of that without making anyone suspicious.

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That makes sense, especially if you're asking someone for one of the few remaining roses and it only exists because of sentimental value. Uh, nothing but the food gets consumed, they will get it back later.

 

While you're doing that, would you benefit from an aerial view of the Ice? I don't have the eyes for it, but I could take a passenger if someone who's already fully informed wants to.

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I'll ask Findekáno, thanks.

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You're very welcome. Flying's great.

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I'm desperate to try it. But this is important and I'm the one making up nonsense about your religion, so I should be the one to keep doing that.

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You are going to lose the ability to lie soon, remember. But that'll be surprisingly little interference on the ability to make up nonsense.

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Noted. The problem is saying things I believe to be false? Saying things I don't believe?

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Either. Saying something and being wrong costs too, but less so. Practitioners talk in conditionals a lot, or things that are technically questions. Or just true but misleading, like the fact that there are in fact a lot of weird human religions.

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Okay. I'll get to work on collecting peoples' precious stuff from them. They are going to agree, I'd just feel bad saying 'this is an order and I can't say why' to people who trust us.

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They will get it back afterward, for anything where the normal use doesn't involve eating it or lighting it on fire.

If the candles or incense are important to someone, we'll owe them. Even though it's for a good cause.

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Owe them by the rules of your magic? Because by the rules of our society if someone wants something for a good reason it's theirs, and if the King wants something for any reason it's his.

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First thing. The rules are on a bit of a hair trigger about debts.

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In that case I'll be super sure to give everyone something valuable in return.

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It barely applies to you yet, but it's a good habit to have. Good luck with collecting ingredients.

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Thanks. And she heads off.

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And is Findekáno anywhere to be found? Wait, of course he is.

Are you free? Irissë thought you'd be interested in an aerial view of the Ice.

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Definitely. Can you explain how your thing works, more specifically than 'magic'?

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I've got a couple of river spirits that can control the motion of a mass of water they're touching. Each can exert just about enough force to lift the entire setup; between the two of them that allows a lot of speed. Those were hard to come by and I probably can't casually get more at that level.

When I'm flying alone, I'm in a sphere of water and they move that while holding it in its shape and me in place. I've only got one water-breathing mask, but we can have our heads awkwardly sticking out the top so there's air. We don't need to optimize for speed. Just to be complete, there's a couple other elementals involved. A weaker water spirit to keep it clean, the heat elemental to keep us from freezing, and on Irissë's suggestion an ice one to disguise the warmth in case anyone's looking.

You might want to wear something that won't be too inconvenient to be submerged in. We can magically evaporate the water on the way out, can't do that while flying.

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Fascinating. Where were you trying to fly to?

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The moon.

That should probably come with a summary of what moons even are.

What moons even are: the summary. Including Earth's one in particular.

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We don't have one of those. Uh. Why were you trying to fly to the Moon?

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You want the long version or short version?

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It'll take this thing a little while to get us up, right? And I'd like to scout as much as possible of the Ice from the air. We probably have time for the long version. Incidentally, where can I find you?

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I'm by the...eastern?...edge of the camp nearer the ocean. "Over here."

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And he finds her. "Hello."

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"Hi."

Getting up there shouldn't take long at all. Oh, and if you have anything on you that shouldn't get wet, my backpack's waterproof.

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I didn't bring anything that'd be harmed by water. 

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All right.

A nearby lump of water flows toward them, and encases her up to neck height. The bubble normally isn't anywhere near big enough for two, but they don't the most possible speed and can afford the extra mass. Just step in and we can take off. This might be a bit disorienting the first time.

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He grins and steps in.

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The water is a human-comfortable temperature, making it easily the warmest place in the area. Once he's inside there's a feeling of weightlessness as his legs are no longer what's holding him up, and then it starts rising. They're accelerating as they go, so it almost feels more like they're diving upward. Once the vertical acceleration tapers off until they're flying only horizontally, the oblong mass of water belatedly bulges in front of them and grows a windshield.

"Didn't think of that earlier. Normally I'm completely inside."

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"This is a tremendous bit of work. I am very impressed with the idea and execution."

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"Thanks! Most of it was just finding the right elementals; flying practitioners usually use air but you can't really get as much force from that. And they're more often about wind than the motion of air, so kind of bound to places with atmospheres. Which the destination and most of the journey didn't have."

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"Ah, yes, you can now tell me why you were going to a moon."

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"So, there's a lot I don't like about how magic works. Notably the fact that it incentivizes Others to become monsters. The spirits approve when everything fits into a nice traditional role, and if you're a new Other without one of those then one of the easier narratives to join is "monster preys on humans, humans fight back." A very successful practitioner a long time ago managed to protect the people who don't know about any of this, made it so the universe goes out of its way to protect them from, well, itself. Not perfect protection, but it's good. But that just means the monsters are very frustrated by a lack of acceptable targets. They're still there, and they're still rewarded. If the problem had been completely fixed, my family would still be–

Anyway. I took all that personally.
I was trying to get to the moon because if there are spirits and Others there, it wouldn't be anything more complicated than nature spirits. The first sentient Others didn't appear until after humans, we think, but no one knows for sure. And the moon has been isolated since long before that. If I could claim a demesne there, start bringing visitors only if they object to the same parts of the magic system that I do, well, the spirits and their opinion of tradition aren't completely immutable. And I thought the spirits there might be out of communication enough that we could convince them valuing people over narrative or "fairness" is normal. Build up a separate normal and hope it spreads. We meaning me and whoever my successors end up being. It'd be a long-term project."

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He's grinning widely by the time she finishes. "Wow. That's brilliant. Do you think you can build a new normal here? We're farther from your home than your moon would have been, the spirits here can't be out of communication with your world..."

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"I thought they couldn't be. But I didn't know that for sure. Now I'm thinking I was wrong. If the spirits aren't communicating with my world, then the rules I've been so worried about most likely don't even apply. I could be completely open about all this, stop worrying about the spirits objecting to me helping Fëanáro's people fight, and I could maybe even lie.

I think it might follow the same rules. The diagrams I used for binding the ice elemental were the same, and those were developed on my world. We'll know for sure once we try the awakening ritual; that's a tradition only a few thousand years old. If it works the way it normally would then the spirits are communicating more than I thought."

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"Which is bad news, since it means they still abide, even here, by the rules you despise?"

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"Despise is a bit of a strong word; only a few of the rules would be terrible ones in a vacuum. But for a lot of practitioners and nearly all Others, karma replaces ethics. I despise that part. Otherwise yes.

This is fixable, and if you have thousands of years and a monopoly on who awakens maybe you'll be able to fix it. At least locally. But apparently there'd be resistance from Earth right from the start."

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"We do have thousands of years and, it seems, a monopoly on who awakens; if needed we can ask them to commit themselves not to awaken others except in dire need."

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"Keep in mind that if we do manage to have that much influence on the spirits over time, whatever policy you use is itself likely to end up being enforced by the universe. That one is almost exactly how the secrecy thing got started."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. Hmm. Then - full openness, the only request that you don't use it to harm others save the Enemy?  I'm sure that could be a problem but how does it go wrong? What rules were you going to have?"

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"It might not fail at all, but if it does then the first thing to come to mind is that "Enemy" softens to mean any enemy. Definitions are very blurry; there are very few cases with fixed sets of exceptions. Individuals could promise that just fine. Promises are dangerous, though, they get enforced enough that we round off to saying unbreakable.

I never planned to restrict who can awaken. There's no chance of a monopoly on Earth, and there weren't going to be native human non-practitioners on the Moon for a very long time.
It would have to be vague and probably subjective. Otherwise it risks the same thing that happened with the lying, where if a practitioner wants to be misleading the fact that they can't lie is barely a bar. Whoever started the ball rolling on that one failed.

If I were designing a set of awakening conditions from scratch, there's something I read once that might work. It's definitely subjective enough, at least.
“In Life’s name and for Life’s sake, I will use my Art for nothing but the service of that Life. I will guard growth and ease pain. I will preserve what grows and lives well in its own way; and I will change no object or creature except for growth and life." I definitely haven't checked that for holes, but it's the kind of thing I'd want the universe to think of as the status quo."

When she says it, the talisman around her neck reflects a small spot of light from nowhere in particular, then fades back down until the glint is barely perceptible to a human.

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"That sounds pretty reasonable. Maybe with enough time we can nudge it along."

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"Maybe. It can't hurt.

Am I flying at the right height, by the way? I can't make out anything down below."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can see fine, thank you. If your first practitioners here are committed to a war, is that going to make a mess of your plans?"

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"Can't really say I have many plans here.
If you mean reforming the karma system, probably not. It usually takes hundreds or thousands of years for much change to happen, and if the spirits here and on Earth are sharing traditions it won't be much faster here."

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"Well, if we can defeat the Enemy in five hundred years and then devote the next two thousand toward shaping the tradition better, it'd be quite nice before the Age is out."

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"Right. Immortality.

Winning on a human time scale would be pretty much instantaneous by standards here, wouldn't it."

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"My uncle seemed determined to do it in one battle, but he's a bit of an idiot. A brilliant idiot, but no less of an idiot for it."

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"And he doesn't seem to have been relevantly brilliant, since he wasn't in the process of a decisive victory when I was there. Do you expect your side to make much difference? He thought you wouldn't, and I'm really not well placed to have an informed opinion."

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"Yeah, I think he's overestimated himself and is going to get them all killed, and with twice the numbers it'll take a lot longer, even if it still isn't enough."

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"And I doubt I make that much difference. Even with helping across the Ice.

Though, what all does he have? If the valaraukar were the most dangerous, I might at least be relatively untouchable."

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"We don't know of anything more dangerous than that, except the Enemy himself. But there's a lot we don't know."

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"Any ways to actually hurt him? Bucket of water, sunlight, throwing eggs at him?"

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"The physical forms the Valar take are possible to damage with ordinary magic weapons. In theory you could just throw soldiers at him until he died, though you'd probably lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers."

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"That sounds much less bad than I was afraid of. Are the physical forms copying human ones– or, I guess it'd be copying yours? What's your species called, by the way?

Human forms are inconveniently easy to demolish, even if his is a lot tougher."

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"We're called the Eldar, among other things And their forms often copy ours, though I hear his current one is twenty feet tall and fairly unlike us."

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"Figures. If he can die of suffocation or blood loss or that kind of thing I might be equipped to do that, but it sounds like we can't even count on that."

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"No, wouldn't expect that to work. Just taking chunks out of the connection between the physical world and the source of their power."

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"There are almost definitely ways to magically disintegrate things, but I don't know any.

And if the war is hopeless without magic, that's...bad."

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"We can't not try."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One step at a time, I guess. There's the rest of my life to think of something, unless I get very lucky and get home or very unlucky and don't.

Anything that looks like a midway point down there? Doesn't have to be exact; as long as it's less than two hundred miles from each side any landmark would do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are some cliffs I'd recognize again, but they're not exactly distinctive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you can identify something like "third cliff from the west" that would do it. Distinctive would be better, but not really mandatory."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, I can do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Good. Then the rest is just mapmaking for normal reasons, let me know when you've seen enough or if there's anywhere in particular to head toward."

Permalink Mark Unread

They head back a few hours later. "Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No problem at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So what's the secret plan my sister is working on?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"She didn't tell you? She volunteered you for it. She's collecting the components for the ritual to make people into practitioners. It'll take two to make the Ice safer, if this works."

Permalink Mark Unread

"She said something like but that but I didn't have enough context to make head or tail of it. Are there side effects? How does it make the Ice safer?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Definitely side effects. In the long term it'll involve some of the bad karma I mentioned, more at the level of a few years bad luck than the universe trying to kill you. So maybe not long term for you. It means permanently passing up one of the major sources of power commonly used by practitioners where I'm from. It might involve fights we're not equipped to handle, possibly dozens of them.

If it works, it makes the Ice cooperative. Warm enough no one freezes, stability for whatever people are walking across, paths opening up. Can't do much about food, unfortunately."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All right. Thank you. That could make a tremendous difference."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Like you said. Numbers. Might at least help stall, right?

If it works, of course."

Permalink Mark Unread

"When will we know if it has?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"On the scale of days, usually. Being here is going to change things in both directions at once, so no guarantees.

After it works, maybe a week to take full effect." A day has to be approximated in terms of how long they've been flying, since they don't exactly have a matching solar cycle.

Permalink Mark Unread

"We've spent a month on planning and scouting already, we can certainly spend another."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll have started worrying about food by then. I forget if it was you or Irissë who said it, but you were planning on relying on fish when crossing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Haven't run across anything to hunt yet, and nothing grows here. Ulmo's pretty good at the sea, it'll be almost as it was before there was light."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can't think of a way to cheat at fishing, not under these conditions.

If Ulmo's managing the sea, is he one of the Maiar?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's the Vala of the oceans. And mad at us, because of recent events, but he's not going to kill off the life in the sea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Vala, that's promising. So they aren't just monolithic; I didn't get the impression that it occurred to the Doom one to hold back because of consequences

I'm probably going to need a rundown on who they all are at some point, but that's not exactly urgent since we're going the other way."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. They - I'm not clear on how their collective decisionmaking works, but they do sometimes disagree on things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So at least we'll be sharing a border with one of the ones who has ever heard of restraint.

When he doesn't kill off everything in the oceans, is he likely to object to you using it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think so. Or rather, I think he'd tell us if he did, and he hasn't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Much more informative than gods in my world. Good for him."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The gods in your world issue sentences without making it clear what they're angry about?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They mostly don't issue sentences, unless maybe a follower really offends them. Mostly it's about trading power for worship, and their worshippers are constantly guessing at whether their god will grant a favor or smite them for asking too much too often.

It's not a career path I'd want to try."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, that sounds worse than the Valar. They're really - more foreign than bad."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Gods have their own interests, determined by whatever they're gods of, which would be fine if they didn't tend to see lesser beings as their playthings in pursuit of a good story. I think they're operating under some set of constraints where encouraging worship by empowering priests is most of what they can do, but I only know what I've picked up secondhand. Valar sound like they'd be preferable, assuming they got used to humans and didn't just Doom us all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think they'd do that. Leave you to die certainly, but not meddle actively."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If what they're doing to you counts as active; Irissë couldn't tell me. But there is by their standards more than enough to blame humans for, so I won't ask if you have any spare Valar."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They're angry with us because they held us to a higher standard, I think. We committed our crimes in their paradise. Everyone knows Men are kinslayers and no one plans to Doom them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wait. If Valar can Doom people, can the Enemy?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I feel like someone would have mentioned that. I don't think so, not on the same scale, and not without - not without it being just somehow. Maybe. I'm not sure."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What he'd consider just has got to be even worse than the others. Hopefully not knowing just means no. I really don't like the idea that he could turn up at any time and make winning impossible. Assuming that's what a Doom does."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I assume if he could do that he would, so probably the fact he hasn't means he can't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One less thing to worry about.

Speaking of potentially unfriendly but still in some sense just judgments, I wonder if Irissë's found the materials for the ritual yet."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, sorry, she has, told me a while ago. I wasn't done surveying. We can start as soon as we land."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Great. Or possibly pick her up and fly somewhere out of earshot; being overheard could be bad."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It can handle three? Yeah, let's do that. Rituals cannot be conducted over osanwë?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It'll be slower and colder, but it'll stay in the air.

Doing rituals over osanwë hasn't been tested, obviously. But I wouldn't expect it to work. Voice matters for a lot of them, and it wouldn't work in writing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay. Slower and colder is fine. Is this the one for which amplifying our voice would matter?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, this is just the preliminary step of making you practitioners at all.

The liquid non-sphere touches down and keeps its shape as they exit.

You will each need a personal item, too, along with the standardized pieces. Doesn't really matter what so long as it means something to you.

Permalink Mark Unread

Something - positive?

Permalink Mark Unread

Just something important.

Permalink Mark Unread

Okay.

They bring all of the items back with them a short time later.

Permalink Mark Unread

Is there any place in particular to aim for, or just far enough away?

Permalink Mark Unread

You're the one who'd know, I expect.

Permalink Mark Unread

Guess that's a no.

She heads in a direction. It's pretty monolithically unremarkable out here, magically speaking, so just distance.

And then they land.

"We want to imitate this shape," she shows the Eldar a page displaying a diagram and (English) text. "I'll start describing the small print while we set up."

Permalink Mark Unread

And they get to work. Your letters are very neat, he says, impressed. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Not my letters. We use printing- actually, that's not even printing. That reader's electronic. Has quite a few books on it, including the few magic books I've managed to get converted. The screen swaps to the text said during the ritual, then back. The letters stay perfectly regular.

 

"The most important warning label about this ritual is that once you're a practitioner you can't lie. If you do, you lose magic power, karma, and physical strength. You might recover in a week or two from a sarcastic comment with few witnesses. Failing to keep a promise to allies who relied on you would take longer, and a voluntarily broken oath can be permanent. Not that I expect it to come up much, but being forsworn is usually considered a fate worse than death so I really should emphasize it. You'd lose all protections against Others, all ability to use magic, and eventually you fade from the world entirely. Literal unvarnished truth is good, when you must mislead people do it by saying irrelevant true things.

Aside from that, most of the rules are based on an idea of fairness. If you accept something from someone else, and it wasn't clear that it was a free gift, you owe them. Debts don't have to be repaid exactly but they do have to be repaid eventually. 
Never be the first aggressor if you can avoid it. If you can't avoid it, dramatically talk to an empty room about how they've wronged you even if you have to exaggerate. The spirits are gullible sometimes, which isn't a great quality in a judge but it's not their fault they aren't sentient.

Other rules are based on hospitality. If you have a visitor, you offer food and drink. It's from a time where places to stay along the road were few and far between, and turning away a traveler might mean they die. If you're a visitor, you don't exploit that because you might be dooming the next one. None of the reasoning is true anymore, but it stuck around. You don't betray people after offering or accepting hospitality, even if you are enemies who would otherwise kill each other by any means.

And then there's the discriminatory ones. Individuals don't matter. The basic unit is the genealogy, and the members are only relevant because the family acts through them. Since you two will count as separate bloodlines this won't affect anything yet, but if there are ever sequential heads of the same house they're interchangeable as far as magic is concerned. This does also mean people can be partially liable for the actions of their descendants, and of course the descendants can inherit the family name.

Oh, and the universe is pretty inept at finding who to blame for things. Leaving an enemy in a near-certainly fatal trap is not murder, by these rules, because you didn't deal the blow. In general, any sufficiently indirect action can fool the universe.

By becoming a practitioner, you agree not to chase after or antagonize any Others that have agreed not to prey on bystanders. That's most of the sentient Others, especially the older ones. That shouldn't come up much either, but completeness.

Permalink Mark Unread

They both nod solemnly. Findekáno looks bitterly lost in thought, but then he draws his attention back to the instructions. "Understood."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I've mentioned that many Others are by default hostile. There aren't usually a lot of those in historically uninhabited places like here, but if and when you run across some they will be free to attack you if they think they can get away with it. Some are. Harder to deal with than others.

Even the hostile ones usually don't do anything, because practitioners tend to be in groups and if they strike against a family the family might strike back, but there are very few practitioners here. There'd be less power or recklessness required for something to decide to- come after you.


And with that I think I'm finally out of bad news."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If someone becomes a practitioner, swears an Oath, breaks it and kills themselves, by our laws that's as far as the Oath can reach them until they return from Mandos. By yours, it affects their dsecendants?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depends on what they swore. If they say that it affects only them that's true.

Otherwise, the karma lands on their descendants, the descendants lose the power benefit of having a bloodline behind them, but they don't automatically become forsworn. Unless the original oath was sworn on their blood specifically, in which case it can affect their descendants as much as it affects them. Oaths are a very bad idea.

Wait, you can return from your afterlife?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oaths are a spectacularly bad idea," he agrees firmly. "Do ones sworn before you become a practitioner count in this sense? Not that we didn't have enough reasons to keep my cousins away from your magic.

And no, we can't, because the Valar are really angry with us. In theory since we're supposed to be undying if we die we get sent right back."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Um. Wow. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by species differences by now, and yet. When you say laws, are you talking about the regular government-jurisdiction laws that wouldn't reach into most afterlives anyway?

Oaths from before don't count, or they barely count the same way everything else a normal person does barely counts. But if you previously took an oath and you reaffirm that you're going to keep the oath then it does. Even saying you took the oath is dangerous, since it relies on the spirits noticing that this oath was from before. Not a distinction you want to stake anything important on."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If this gets anywhere near my cousins the whole continent will probably die an extremely bloody and protracted death."

Irissë nods. 

"And I just mean the laws that govern Oaths for non-practitioners."

Permalink Mark Unread

"For non-practitioners where I'm from, an oath is just an unusually serious promise. No law involved."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's very odd. A voluntarily broken oath is a fate worse than death for us anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. Guess I could have eased up on the dire warnings. What counts as an oath here? If it doesn't happen to be the same, there's a risk of accidental swearing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You have to say it explicitly. 'I swear', or 'we swear', or 'I hereby pledge' or something. Usually people embellish but you don't have to. The Oath my cousins swore - oh, we don't share a writing system, I don't know how to communicate it to you safely."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That sounds mostly similar. For a practitioner's oath, just explicitly promising is enough but embellishing makes it more powerful. Partly because the spirits like dramatic things and mostly because if you swear by something there's something specific on the line. Our kind does work in writing, or presumably osanwë; what matters is that you send the message. You could swear an oath through flower arrangements if you and the person you're talking to had a specific enough code.

The reason people swear at all is that it makes you stronger—both magically and physically—while you work to fulfill it. Sometimes the boost is too tempting to pass up. You also get plenty of good karma if you succeed, but people taking this risk aren't usually weighing the long-term pros and cons."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In that case, is there a safe way for me to communicate to you the content of my cousin's oath? The spirits, ah, would stand up and pay attention, and it'll be really really bad -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"For this kind of oath yes; you just specify that this is what they swore and not any oath you've ever taken. That'd be safe even if you had already awakened, and you can always insert "they said" every other line to be careful.

If saying the words triggers your kind of oath regardless, can you tell me every second word? And then the other half and I can put it together."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Inserting 'they said' is safe by our rules, if it's safe by yours. 

They said: "Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,

brood of Moringotto or bright Vala,

Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,

Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,

neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,

dread nor danger, not Doom itself,

shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor’s kin,

whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,

finding keepeth or afar casteth

a Silmaril.'

They said, 

'This swear we all:

death we will deal him ere Day’s ending,

woe unto world’s end! Our word hear thou,

Eru Allfather! To the everlasting

Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.

On the holy mountain hear in witness

and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!’"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Those idiots."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I know," he growls. "I know."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Practitioners' oaths are very literal. If I were to swear that none shall go hungry whom my hand can feed, it would count as fulfilling the oath if I make sure never to have the chance to feed any hungry people. Is the same true of this? If so, they'd be doomed to whatever the Everlasting Darkness is if someone else killed the person they were after and then gave them the Silmaril!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I - intent matters, if that interpretation didn't occur to them I don't think they'd be stuck with it. Normal people just never ever swear anything, there's so much risk, let alone doom you and your kin to the Everlasting Darkness for a promise -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay, so it's marginally less stupidly dangerous than it would be if a practitioner swore that, except that it doesn't even come with the positive side of oaths-"

Permalink Mark Unread

"And if they became practitioners, and affirmed that they meant it, it'd be stupidly dangerous your way."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe. Oaths being literal does work both ways. They could say that when they swore to follow the old oath they meant the same content as the old oath, not the same words. If they went and swore it again word for word they'd be stuck.

What's a Silmaril, anyway, and who do they have to kill?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Silmarils are magic jewels that my uncle made. They contain the unsullied divine light of Arda and can do all sorts of things, but none which justify this. And they have to kill the Vala who's besieging the continent."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, if it's only him that's the least bad answer available. If I were in the Enemy's position and had no ethics whatsoever, I might pass it to people on a rotation and send people who have hoarded Silmarils off where the oath-takers can never find them. And make sure they knew it, of course."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Enemy has not yet demonstrated that much creativity. The lack of ethics is consistent with things he has done."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guessed that part.

If intent matters, I'm guessing they didn't mean to include themselves as people who keep a Silmaril? Otherwise the Enemy could just send them one, and- ugh. Yes, let's keep magic very far away from these people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. No, they didn't mean to include themselves. You know, I really appreciate getting to talk to someone who feels the full magnitude of how monumentally stupid this was."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Where I come from this is an obvious mistake. Practitioner families raise their kids from a young age to make sure they never do this exact thing. I assumed it was a cultural difference, since non-practitioners don't, but your entire species has this and they did it anyway. Do other people just not notice how big of a deal this is?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"So I told you that my uncle was the King of our people and that a succession dispute was the immediate cause of us being stranded here? Well, he was popular, he was gifted, everyone was happy to follow him as King, and then he did this and they asked my father to take the job instead. Around two thirds of all our people. People know what a big deal it is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Then it sounds like you wouldn't lack for people who know just how stupid Fëanáro was being."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We don't. We just don't talk about it, and it's old news now.

 

And his children are - well - actually it's a bit of a fucking mess but - 

- if there's any way at all for them to not be doomed to the everlasting darkness I don't think I want them to be doomed to the everlasting darkness."

"A ringing endorsement," Irissë says drily. "Is this a situation where you need full information? Because if so, Findekáno -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure what I'd need full information for. Since intent is binding here, finding what would otherwise count as a catch in their oath wouldn't help. And presumably we all agree on goals of Moringotto being beaten and the Silmarils returned to the idiots who will then not be forced to kill people.
If there's information that it would cost to tell me, it might not be worth it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That makes sense," he says firmly. "All right. We will not lie, will not even mislead if we can avoid it, and will never ever make an Oath never ever, and we can commit that we aren't having children so we don't have to worry about passing our mistakes on to them."

"Right," Irissë says firmly.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Those are all good policies, but you probably shouldn't repeat that after awakening. Even with oaths, swearing that you've been completely honest can sometimes help negotiate with untrustworthy people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was not planning to, immediately after awakening, swear not to swear Oaths, no." He smiles. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"All right. Ritual.

 

I've got the words written out, in my language and in the older language I don't speak that you'll be saying them in. We don't share an alphabet, but I could send you the syllables through osanwë. The content translates to pledging truthfulness in exchange for joining the world of practitioners. The ritual is about introducing yourself to the spirits; you'll get marked as people to listen to.

A lot of it, especially toward the end, isn't scripted. The objects we've set up will move around and show themselves, and you say whatever it makes you think of. Normally this is one-word responses except for the personal token, when you say who you are and who or what you're doing this for. But if you want to use more words, that's entirely allowed.

Um, it does have to be done naked. I don't know what your nudity taboos are like, but the clothes-wearing people can survive away from the heat source for a little bit.

Afterward, your vision will look different. I can't tell you how because it's different for everyone, but you'll be seeing magic and spirits. You can turn this on and off, and should leave it off except when needed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We don't have a nudity taboo; do we have to unbraid our hair?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is that the equivalent thing here? Probably not; if it works it's because it's doing the same thing as it would in my world and it's just clothes that matter there. But it wouldn't hurt, magically at least."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In that case everyone else should go away from the heat source," he says, undressing.

Permalink Mark Unread

The heat elemental has been transferred into the small lump of iron ore, which does have to be heated but doesn't have requirements on how. The candles and incense are lit, everything else in position.

After leaving line of sight, Amber sends the ritual script in both Quenya and Incomprehensible, then repeats it a line at a time in the original. This isn't normal, for rituals, but it's nothing she hasn't agreed to before.

Permalink Mark Unread

A few minutes later. "All right. Your magic is interesting. I think I can see the spirits you described -" he sends a mental image - "is that what I'm seeing? I'm getting dressed. I don't mind if you come back in. Does honesty interact badly with giving orders? Giving permissions? Speculating?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, that's them. They're more analogous to air molecules filling space and having effects in the aggregate than to individual observers; what you're seeing are the smallest distinguishable clumps representing the purposes or materials of the nearest object or any number of other things.

 

All those are safe, dependent on grammar. Don't, like, phrase orders as "you will do X." That arguably counts as a prediction, and while it's an argument you might win it's not a good one to have to have. That kind of thing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you. Irissë, it's fascinating, doesn't feel nearly as dangerous as I take it it actually is, and doesn't take long."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Being a practitioner is risky. The ritual itself is safe.

Irissë, we can give you some privacy while you do it."

Permalink Mark Unread

So they step away from the heat so she can do it privately. "Thank you for this," he says.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm still wishing I had a better option, no offense, but it's this or not do it. The best I could think of managing alone was sending an elemental or two to help where they could."

And she feeds Irissë the lines.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Once we're in less dire straits it is my sincere hope that we can make it worthwhile for you. This is a very talented and dedicated group of people. I would ordinarily be happy to promise, but I am not going to do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A good idea.

should be happy about all this, there are thousands of lives on the line even if I can't do anything at all on the other side, but I was kind of attached to my other long shot of a plan. Which I couldn't do here even if a moon appeared in the sky next week."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why not? I mean, I think you'd best resign yourself to this world being dark and moonless, but why wouldn't the plan work if we did have one?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Assuming the hypothetical moon were isolated enough for the spirits to be easily malleable, boring practical reasons.
It depended on selectively allowing visitors and immigrants whose presence would help, and I could expect enough interested people to pick from because the Moon is old and symbolically important to a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. Visiting a moon here would be an interesting curiosity, but it wouldn't have the same weight to it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It seems likely that if the fundamental forces of fate could be altered by sending people to a Moon, then my father would see fit to order people to go to a Moon."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Fundamental is giving these forces of fate too much credit, fortunately.

The problem is that's all it would be, is going to a moon. If I invite some of the friendlier members of the Church of the Seven Bright Ones, it's metaphorically an invitation to the sphere of their second god. If people think being there at all is significant, the spirits are likelier to agree. They care about that kind of thing.

Though, that is more of a question of how effectively it works than whether. I had been assuming there wouldn't be enough interested parties to go around."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I assume you couldn't have gotten the leave of your homeland's King. ...is he a practitioner? Does he even know about you all?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"As far as I know, the people running the country aren't in general informed. Even if they all were, there isn't any authority who can just order people to do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, we can send as many people as the situation warrants and design a ceremony of suitable gravity if that turns out to be the right approach."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It actually might be, once there's a population of practitioners instead of just three of us."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Will it be a higher priority than the war?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It definitely won't be more urgent than the war."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Realistically, the war will probably take five centuries."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If reforming the spirits' priorities could be done in a human life span, more people would have tried. If it worked in five centuries, I'd consider it a success."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All right. In that case it may be worth not diverting too many resources towards until the war is over. Once it is, I can't think why we shouldn't spend the next Age on it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well. At least we weren't previously planning to not win as soon as possible."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We won't have you, as I understand it. That's a disadvantage to delaying your plan."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wouldn't be around to see whether it works either way, not without spectacular luck on one front or another."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sorry about that. Doesn't make much sense."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What doesn't?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Giving people an absurdly short lifespan."

"Alright, dressed," Irissë says behind them.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It wasn't exactly given. Not as far as anyone knows."

The ritual completed, both of them have had a chance to detect magic as far as the eye can see. Here, that means a fairly low density of spirits mostly representing the physical properties of the surroundings; there's little more abstract to say about objects in the middle of nowhere, and there are few Others that could be called alive and none that could be called people. With the exception of the three of them; Findekáno knows how practitioners look different to him from the before and after picture of Irissë; Irissë will have to wait until seeing someone who isn't one. The iron containing a heat elemental glows dully in the material world and brightly in the spirit one, and Amber's talisman shines. Everything that isn't magic fades into the background even when they look directly at it, at least until they refocus and use the normal kind of superhuman vision.

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's the necklace?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"My implement. There's a ritual, you do it with a tool or some other object and it improves your ability to do magic using that. It's one of the most important common rituals, along with the choices of demesne and familiar. There's a lot of symbolic meaning involved, that's one of the most important things in choosing an implement, and I have no idea how much of the symbolism even applies here."

Permalink Mark Unread

He rolls in his hands the copper ring he used for his personal item in the awakening ritual. "How much cultural difference is there on your world?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are a lot of cultures there, and sometimes what matters is what an object meant in the culture that popularized using it as an implement."

She spots the ring. "A ring implies secrecy and concealment partly because some philosopher used a ring of invisibility in a thought experiment long ago and the association happened to catch on. That almost definitely wouldn't apply here. And it's partly because the ring itself is inconspicuous enough to be worn unnoticed in public and not draw attention from non-practitioners; that part would."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In our society rings are commonly used for powerful magic; this one was also a gift from someone who betrayed me, if that complicates things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What it means to you is almost as important as what it means to other people.
The outward symbolism is because an implement is a badge practitioners represent themselves by. If rings mean powerful magic here, that'll probably be a common choice here. Where you got it from does matter; in this case it would mean practitioners associate you with the fact that you were betrayed and this person owes you. If that's not the message you want to send, you do have a while before there'll be more practitioners to meet. But a choice of implement is permanent."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's a fine message to send. I don't have any personal implements that imply 'the Enemy really really needs to die'. So."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And that would be an awkward meaning afterward if you win. That's why using a sword is usually considered a bad idea.

Is this particular ring magic? It's definitely not the same kind of magic. Irissë, anything you'd want to use? If not, it's not a decision to rush into."

Permalink Mark Unread

"This one is not magic, no."

Irissë frowns. "Nothing comes to mind immediately, no. I don't have rings from our dear cousins, people'd take that the wrong way - not that they didn't for Findekáno."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. That wrong way. Rings mean the same on my world; it's just the conjunction of ring and magic that always implies invisibility.

It's usually a good idea for an implement to be at least partly magical. I can show you how to bind nature spirits and we could get one sealed into the ring, but adding something irrelevant might mess up the symbolism."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We have magic jewelry as well. Probably something of my uncle's, though I don't know what that symbolizes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Might depend on why you were using it. There are very few things in magic with a definitive single meaning.

It does have to unambiguously belong to the practitioner, though; if it's his it can't be anyone else's implement."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, I mean gifts which were given to me. It just might matter that he's the creator."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Probably emphasize the user's relationship to Fëanáro, or Fëanáro's skill in being able to create most of the selection of magic items. Though he'd have to be a practitioner to really take advantage of that, so it shouldn't come up.

What is magic jewelry used for here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Enhancing concentration, healing, steadying your hand, greater physical strength, keep a sword in your hand. Mostly. You can do all kinds of things, but it takes decades to develop and very few people have the patience and talent."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sounds useful. How good is the healing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's not a miracle cure. We were in Valinor. It'll mostly stop injuries from worsening and enhance our natural abilities to patch ourselves up. We can heal a lot unless something's very serious, and we'd go to a Power for those."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Of course you can patch yourselves up. I should probably be expecting that kind of thing by now.

Blood is a power source, a strong one. The physical injury isn't most of the cost to using it, but if you can get back to normal sooner it could be more useful to you than to humans."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We probably want to save our capacity for self-governance - which is really what the healing is - for the Ice, which will be demanding of it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Capacity for self-governance, that sounds uncomfortably close to personal power and identity. Which is most of the cost to using blood. No infinite free magic there, I guess."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, will we have advantages innately in that respect? Because of our different natures?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"At this point I would be more surprised if you didn't." Super-hearing. "If so you'll find yourself more able to get spirits and Others to listen, less able to use magical disguise, and more resistant to possession. Which will hopefully never come up. You'd be generally more present, and that has probably more effects than I can remember off the top of my head."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I suppose we will have to encounter them as they come up. Thank you. How and when should we conduct the ritual to make the Ice safer?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We could do it any time.
We'll be ludicrously underprepared no matter what, but if you have an implement in mind you may as well do that first. Might need it. And we should sleep beforehand—or at least I should; you should if Eldar even need sleep—because the ritual sometimes takes days depending on who or what disapproves."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We sleep occasionally. Thank you. What do you mean by ludicrously underprepared?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We'll be affecting a wide area. Any Others in it or even nearby can try to stop the ritual if they want to. There shouldn't be many, but if we end up facing a serious fight we won't have the resources to do much more than hold them off, get out, and maybe try again later."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do ordinary weapons not help in the fight? Can we not ask non-practitioners to defend us?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depends what we're up against. An uninhabited wasteland like this, we'd be talking about elementals and not much else. No spirits of abstract principles, no monsters. To someone who hasn't awakened, it would look like ordinary landscape movement, maybe more of it than normal. They wouldn't be able to help much.

If we're lucky enough, nothing we can't beat will fight us for it. I wish I had something more sure."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And weapons? Will anything we have work? Does armor help?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Might help. Many elementals do have bodies that can be attacked. They're more effectively fought symbolically. Heat for a cold elemental, stone for a wind one. You'd be better off stabbing a rain spirit with an umbrella than a sword."

Permalink Mark Unread

He frowns. "What's an umbrella?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Umbrella.

"It might not mean the same thing if you don't have those here. But you see the idea, opposing Others with their opposites? That's a general rule, not just for fighting and not just for elementals."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think I do see the idea, yes. I'm unclear what winning or losing a symbolic fight looks like. Would singing weather songs work?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It looks like a regular fight, just with different weapons. Very different weapons.

If you have songs that control the weather, it could make it very unpleasant for an opposing elemental and probably drive off a lot of potential challengers. Definitely a good idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We have those. Pretty mild ones, but still. And lots of songs for heat, since we'll need them on the Ice."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe non-practitioners can help after all. We'd have a lot of explaining to do and would have to hide any magic, but those songs sound immensely useful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We can also sing them ourselves, unless you anticipate being badly outnumbered. But yes, I can certainly ask people to come sing their best weather-songs for us without explaining why."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You guys have almost scary amounts of latitude to ask for random things.

There'll be more objecting Others than there are of us, but it'll be one at a time. Whether it's worth recruiting more people probably depends on how long you could keep it up and how much benefit there is from more people singing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Would your King not be able to order people to play a weather song? It's a war, we have to give our leadership the latitude to actually fight it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We do technically have a Queen, but the monarchy's mostly just ceremonial. If she needed someone's rose and couldn't explain why, the person could just say no. Probably wouldn't, but could.

If weather songs were a thing in my world, the people running a war would make sure some people in the army knew them, like they do with the practice. Them they can order."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We're sort of all in the army. Because of what a mess things turned out to be."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All in the army. Okay.

That doesn't sound like it would be an obvious consequence of any part of this mess, but army does fit better as an analogy than country."

Permalink Mark Unread

"When a country collectively decides to pack up and fight a war, how do you govern it? Commanding it at least gives us a hope of winning."

Permalink Mark Unread

"When a country collectively decides, less than all of the population packs up and fights. But if the only people who came with you are the combatants, it explains the difference."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, everyone came with us. We'll probably try settling them somewhere away from the fighting, if we can, and it''s not like there'll be any more children born, so -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Irissë, you said everyone here chose to cross the Ice. That includes the children? Consenting to something with that kind of chance of being deadly?

And the Valar Doomed them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Doom is on all of our descendants. Rather like your magic."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They Doomed the children. Of course they did.
And when my magic takes revenge on people for things they didn't do, the only reason I don't consider it evil is because it isn't a person doing it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Valar aren't exactly people either. And we'd committed a kinslaying, they were really really angry."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Your cousins committed it. You took your kin's side in an ongoing fight. And the Valar announced a death sentence on not only whoever started the violence, not only whoever escalated it, not only the people who thought they were defending the victims, but people who happened to be standing too close."

Permalink Mark Unread

"People who followed the wrongdoers across the sea instead of repenting. And - kinslaying. We're not talking about insulting someone or - or copying their work, or disobeying a King - we took other peoples' lives!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I have- maybe more sympathy than I can justify, rationally, for people who did that because of coercion or mistake. And less when it's neither. The Valar are not in the first category."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a mess. Oh, now that exact words matter, do you need to hear the Doom's?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If exact words didn't matter before, you awakening wouldn't change that. But yes, I should hear them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay, what they said was, "Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever. 

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.' "

Permalink Mark Unread

"...ouch. Practitioners usually know better than to do things with permanent consequences while angry, and permanent should mean a lot more to them.

"Those that follow" does mean descendants? That's what it would usually mean if someone in my world said it; I had hoped it might mean following across the sea or accepting his authority or something at least a bit less evil."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We also understood it to mean descendants. Did you wonder why we said so readily, earlier, that we were never having children?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not especially; there are lots of people who don't want to. I was surprised that immortals would say never, but didn't assume there must be this scale of reasons.

Oh, and just to be clear," she looks pointedly at empty space, "that was before you awakened. You're still free to decide otherwise if for some reason you want to, and that wasn't reaffirming a promise to make it binding?"

Permalink Mark Unread

He laughs. "I was not reaffirming any promises and make none, unable to foresee the world's long Ages as I am. Though only on the principle that one shouldn't; there are so many reasons why it is unlikely that I will have children that for me at least the Doom was not decisive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So you see why not wanting children isn't that surprising even absent any Dooms.

That really sounds like it's about Fëanáro's House. And even if they could stretch it into saying your army is following after him, you're definitely not his descendants. If it were just about exact words you might not be Doomed at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That would be encouraging. It means at least that your spirits are unlikely to interpret us as so condemned."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you go around saying you're Doomed they're more likely to. But since the actual words sound more like it's just them, you can at least downgrade it to "possibly Doomed."

At the cost of reinforcing the use of hereditary curses. I really wasn't expecting the war effort to trade off against reforming the spirits so soon."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It could by 'all who follow them' meaning 'all who acknowledge him as King and march under his command', that covers the other host but doesn't reinforce hereditary curses."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, you're right, it could be.

Now there's an answer to a succession dispute if there ever was one. Maybe you'll get defectors."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think that's quite specifically what he burned the ships to prevent.

 

 

The ideal outcome would be that we get there, somehow convince Fëanáro to invent things and not try being King of anything, and either make decisions ourselves or be subsumed by some definitely-unaffected faction that can do that. But I don't expect that while Fëanáro's alive he'll agree to that, and now of course we can't even be confident that if he dies things will improve."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, if he's worried about that interpretation then that's even better. Not as good as if the Valar did, but multiple factions with opposing interests agreeing anyway is a good way to get the spirits to buy something.

Which probably doesn't apply to this kind of Doom, but it'll at least stop it from getting worse if it applies."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can tell everyone about the interpretation of the Doom wherein it only applies to the other host, and tell them that discussing or debating its reach is prohibited save for making it known that that interpretation is possible. I don't know how much weight spirits give to public opinion."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot, with the caveat that non-practitioners barely count.
Prohibiting discussion sounds like a pretty counterproductive way of convincing everyone, and you can always just pick future practitioners from people who don't think they're definitely Doomed even if that's the minority."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We're not convincing everyone, we're convincing spirits, right? Thus don't say certain things aloud?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, there is that, but if everyone knows they're only not talking about it because they can't it'll look like you're hiding something. Even though the official line would also be the true one."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And to some extent the line believed to be true is true, right? This is the sort of problem my uncle would solve by swearing an oath. Only in the sense that he thinks most problems that have anything to do with expectations determining reality should be solved by selling his soul to violently yank reality into place."

Permalink Mark Unread

"To a pretty large extent, where magic is involved.
This isn't the kind of problem people normally solve with oaths; what would it even be? Promising to believe he's not Doomed, to act as if he believes it, to be as convincing as possible when telling others?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, he'd promise that he wasn't Doomed. Because he is an idiot."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

 

 

"At this point I'm almost surprised he didn't swear to kill you all if you cross the Ice. I know you said he wasn't going to commit more murder, but he did sound serious about hoping the deaths and the lack of help from him would be a deterrent."

Permalink Mark Unread

He tries to start a sentence several times before shaking his head. "His sons are a lot of his military and civilian command structure, and all highly capable in their own right. If you'd asked me a year ago whether they'd obey an order from him to kill civilians - or to kill us - or, actually, to the point, to kill me particularly - I'd have said there was no chance at all. But I also did not think they would burn the ships. One of his sons promised me that they were just heading out so tempers could cool on both sides, that they'd bring the ships back. Didn't swear, and I wouldn't have asked him for an oath no matter how grave the circumstances, but did outright lie. So now I think maybe I misestimated them all along."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sorry.

Is there any chance he didn't know what the plan was when he promised that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It'd be a convenient time for his in-general-exceptionally-good ability to predict and to persuade his father to have failed so catastrophically."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess all we can do about it is get across the Ice either way."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are actually quite a few things it matters for. He's Fëanáro's heir, so if he knowingly lied to me for several months to smooth his father's departure from here with the ships then that speaks badly of what happens if my uncle recklessly gets himself killed - which he might. And if we think he's planning to meet us with swords we might decide to arrange that he does, that being not an unprovoked attack but a retaliation for the number of times he's threatened, endangered, and orchestrated the deaths of our people.

On the other hand, if he didn't knowingly lie to me, and didn't decide to betray us until the ride over or was somehow stopped from fulfilling his word to us, then he is reliable in the ways I'd gone through life assuming he was reliable and him being in charge of their host is a good outcome. And he knows this and if he thinks we're considering assassinating his father might commit himself towards reacting strongly if we did that, I'm not sure."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All we can do about it at the moment, I mean.

Your uncle might be less likely to die in the near future than he was yesterday, but I don't at all think they're planning to attack you. And anyone who was there at the time might know that I think that, and that that's what I'd report back, so you probably don't have to worry about them expecting an assassination. Probably."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In the moment we just do the ice-claiming ritual and hope for the best, maybe fly ahead occasionally to see if they're reacting. It'd be useful to have a sense of what we're meeting on the other side, but you're right that it doesn't change our next action. Unless, I guess, he'd sworn to kill us. Then we'd have to assassinate him or turn back. That's a bit out of character even for him, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I've told you what he says they'll do, and since that's inaction it's pretty plausible."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And we're planning with it as an assumption."

Permalink Mark Unread

"For the Ice it would be a good idea to be more prepared. Your implement, if nothing else.

How long was it likely to be before you started, absent magic?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Another month, perhaps two. We're eating through our supplies but the ice is really dangerous."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So it's worth spending a few days preparing, then. Or day-equivalents. Even if we wait the whole month we won't be ready for a ritual like this, but having it be your first piece of magic is just reckless."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What should our first place of magic be?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No fixed answer. 

Most of what I'd know how to demonstrate is binding elementals, which conveniently is also likely to come up on the Ice. There's also the unnoticeability trick; that one's really simple."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In that case iet's begin with that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You'll need a power source." She takes off her pendant. "This isn't one, but it's attached to some.

If you look through your new extra senses, you'll see ambient spirits everywhere. Some of them are moving; if you look closely at the ones that flit along the same paths you can see them trace out connections. Connections between people are usually the most obvious, but there are others. Picking up a rock requires connections between you and the rock and it and the earth, though they're week enough you wouldn't normally see them. Well, I wouldn't. People are more magically relevant. You can strengthen a connection. Practitioners can be called by name and it'll get their attention from a distance; this is uncomfortable and very rude outside of emergencies. For non-practitioners, you have to spend power to strengthen a connection. Press the power source into the path the spirits are taking, and move it along that line.

What you're doing is the opposite. Breaking a connection, so they don't register that you're there. Just move whatever you're using for power perpendicular to the line and sever it.
If the person you're hiding from sees you do it, it's a lot less likely to work. And like with most things, presentation matters. Do it while closing a door or stepping around a tree or something for best results. That's why I fell over when testing if it worked on you; there weren't many places to actually hide in the open."

She glances between the other two a few times so they can see what being seen looks like, then holds out the talisman and looks away.

Permalink Mark Unread

"What does a strengthened connection do? Make someone more aware of you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"More aware, yes. More likely to think of you or come seek you out. Certain kinds of magic that have spillover effects will reach between you more easily. It can eventually make you more important to each other. There's a lot you can do with connections if you get good at it, some of it very creepy."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was starting to realize," he murmurs. "And that's not bad karma?"

"Findekáno -" Irissë says.

"I don't currently intend to use magic to manipulate anyone," he says, "and would need a really really good reason. I just want to know how it works."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I only know the basics of this kind of magic. It's called enchantment on my world, but we might have a name collision.

It's possible to strengthen or break connections permanently, or move them around. Powerful enchanters can steal someone's familiar, which is normally about as doable as stealing their arm. It's possible to outright control people.
I can't tell you how any of this works, but what little enchantment I do know is really intuitive. It might be easier to figure these things out from just the knowledge of what's doable than most fields would be.

Anything you do to someone does count as doing something to them, so if it's an attack it would absolutely be bad karma. How much depends on what you were influencing them to do, why, and what happened as a result even if you couldn't predict it. Like any other way of acting against people, really."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Enemy can do things like that. Not with this kind of magic, I hope."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If it were the same, it might be easier to oppose. At least easier to spot. What does he do?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"He can bring people under his control. We don't know how, and it takes a long time, and he has to have them as his prisoner."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know if enchanters doing that have the same constraints. I hope so.

Maybe learning to break connections permanently could free those people, if we're lucky enough for his magic to depend on the kind of thing ours can detect."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That would be really useful for a lot of awful situations that arose last war and could arise in this one if it goes badly."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know much enchantment beyond the unnoticeability, but if we end up trying to redevelop things that one could be worth aiming for."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are different areas of magical study and specialization?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Lots. Some more complicated than others."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yours is nature?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Elementalism. Spirits simple enough that they're there even with no intervention from people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And the others?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are a lot. My city has the High Priest of a god of wine, a practitioner who works with ghosts, an Other who focuses on karma and occasionally takes human apprentices, an astrologer, a combination enchanter and illusionist... this isn't most of the possible specialties. One practitioner serves a spirit of patriotism.

There's time magic, some people work on capturing and summoning bogeymen or other monsters, there are demons, some people can predict the future."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow. Okay. Do people specialize by aptitude, or need, or interest?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It can be any reason. Often there'll be a collective specialty, in a family or an order or a tradition.
Knowledge is a currency, even if it shouldn't be, so people usually end up with the same specialty as whatever faction awakened them. Case in point, I can teach you elementalism but most anything else past the basics would be a research project."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Elementalism sounds very useful in any event. Since it's the elements we're facing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was expecting a different uninhabitable wasteland.

Want to start now?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The most important thing is the symbolic opposites; charging a circle with that is the basic principle behind most bindings including elemental ones. It gets more complicated if you want to do more than just hold the spirit in or out, but this is almost always a component. For very weak Others you can use similarity instead of opposition, but anything that works on is usually not very important anyway. For more bindings more specific than stopping something in place...."

There follows a crash course in binding lesser and intermediate elementals and running away from greater ones. Mostly practical information: what diagrams to use when, how a nonsentient spirit communicates that it agrees it's caught, what kinds of things elementals are in general capable of, rules of thumb for guessing whether you've got a water spirit with a movement focus or a motion spirit that happens to be surrounding itself with water at the moment.

Permalink Mark Unread

They take notes. "I'm astonished that all of this was present in our world in a capacity that didn't let anyone notice," he says.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Barely anyone in mine knows either, proportionately. The universe goes out of its way to keep it that way. A lot of elementalism looks like weird weather conditions or something from the outside, and people are more willing to buy flimsy excuses like the religion thing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why would a universe - want itself not known? Keep most of its activity unnoticeable?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know how it started, if it started. At this point the fact that it has always been this way would be enough of a reason by itself. There's a status quo, people who know go along with it and expect it to continue and don't want to take the risk of going against it. I'm anthropomorphizing the universe a bit, but to the extent it can be described as having preferences it wants things to stay normal."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Even here, where none of this is known to anyone, it's somehow bleeding over..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm more surprised at the same rituals and diagrams working. Secrecy I could imagine happening independently."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is it possible they work because you expect them to? The universe behaving by public opinion again?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'd say it isn't that malleable, but I've never previously seen a universe with exactly one practitioner. Probably still no. There are almost definitely Others smart enough to have expectations, even if they're off somewhere inhabited, so I wouldn't be public opinion by myself anyway.
And the secrecy definitely wasn't because I expected it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"True." He shakes his head. "It doesn't make sense the Valar didn't know, and doesn't make sense they wouldn't tell us."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Because they'd know this in particular, or because they know everything analogous?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They created the world, they should technically know everything about it except consequences of the actions of people, and this can't be caused by that -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot of it is, but almost definitely not the existence of spirits et cetera. And if they know, the Enemy should.

You say they created the world, was this a collective thing? Any chance of accidents or at least secretive side projects?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, actually, there are several sentient species of precedent for that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Which, accidents or secrets?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The latter. No accidents that I know of."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Does this seem like at all the kind of thing any Vala would have done?

Though I'm not sure this makes any sense, since my world has the same magic and doesn't have the same origin story."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It really doesn't. There are some of them I don't understand, but - it's not much like the known side projects."

Permalink Mark Unread

"How long ago was this world created? Mine's very old, but we only have theories about whether magic was there all along so this might not help."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We're the only sentient race that has yet awakened, and we're - hmm, seven hundred years old? The world itself is older."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We're in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, depending on how you count, and Others have never not existed as far as anyone knows. That may or may not mean they predate us. Our planet is four billion, our universe thirteen, and by some theories Others have been around the whole time. Not necessarily magic; the practice as we know it was invented.

But our years are measured by the Sun. Might not mean much here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. Yes, I have no idea how long your years are. Who invented the practice, and how?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"This is all old enough that it could easily be just wrong. But people used to be very superstitious, helped by the fact that a lot of the superstitions were true and others had Others conform to them. So the ones who did break through the barriers to knowing about what's really going on could keep track of which superstitions worked, use them for their own ends, and the practice evolved from that. Developed might be a better word than invented, but the point is it doesn't predate humans. A king named Suleiman three thousand years ago had more influence on it than any other single practitioner—we still use something mostly similar to his version of the awakening ritual—but there's no single inventor."

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"Does he still have extra influence? Do the spirits remember - oh, I'm sorry, never mind, he must be long dead. People here would have been superstitious, there were plenty of mundane horrors out there."

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"Maybe not only mundane ones. Mundane horror is an easy disguise for an Other one.

Solomon does still have extra influence. He's the reason innocents are protected, and him being the reason for that is the reason why it applies more to older Others."

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"So it's starting to apply less and less over time?"

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"In a sense. Anything three thousand years old that hasn't been affected yet probably isn't going to be, but his big accomplishment was getting it established as normal. The universe likes its statuses quo. So newer Others find themselves under pressure to agree not to harm bystanders, and even the ones that haven't agreed don't press their luck too much because they're going against the grain. I think it's in equilibrium at "mostly true.""

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"That's good, at least. I wish I had a better sense of how long our years are compared to yours."

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"We'll get one once I've been here longer. Saying a year is however many hundred or thousand times since I arrived probably wouldn't mean much."

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"No. I'd ask the length of a year relative to the gestation period of your species but I'm not sure we'd even be able to infer much from that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You did have elephants here. Theirs is... I think more than a year? Probably not too much more, but I really wasn't expecting to need to know this."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Regrettably I don't think I know the gestation period of our elephants either. Irissë?"

"More than a year, less than ten," she says.

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"So the years are closer than a factor of ten, if our elephants are the same.

This is kind of ridiculous. I'll just tell you when it's been a day, and a year is three hundred sixty-five of those."

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"Our year is seventeen hundred twenty eight of our days, but we don't have days anymore because there's no light."

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"Any other natural cycles faster than stars and slower than pendulums?"

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"At a guess we require sleep less frequently than you, just because we have better vision and better hearing and longer lives and osanwë and better self-governance and it seems like the designer of your species had different priorities. But we sleep once every day, for around an eighth to a tenth of the day."

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"Once a day, and we average a quarter to a third.
Makes sense we'd need more, if your species was literally designed."

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"Yours wasn't?"

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"No. Well, probably not. There could be a real Prometheus or a Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other number of creation myth subjects, but if so humans probably predate them. Species ordinarily happen by a very messy process involving no magic at all."

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"Only Eru can create thinking and speaking life. At least here. The Valar can do simple animals, automata."

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"There are humans who can create thinking life. Not many, but not none. If you figured out how that kind of magic works, would you just not be able to? Would I?"

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He frowns. "I think Eru might intervene and stop you. Or maybe it just wouldn't work. That's something your magic can do?"

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"It's not common. Offhand I can't think of a situation where it would be better than altering something or summoning something or creating something that doesn't think. But it's not specifically impossible."

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"Maybe don't try it here.


Will practicing bindings prepare us for the defense of the territory?"

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"I wouldn't know how to try if I wanted to. Anything else like that to avoid?

Knowing bindings can only help. I'd be shocked if it didn't, but maybe we'll get really lucky and not need it."

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"I'm not sure what else to avoid. Acquiring my cousins' precious Silmarils, I guess. Don't do that.

And let's try some bindings."

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Practicing the diagrams and seals is easy, but attracting things to practice bindings on is less so. Once they're reliably catching hypothetical spirits, "Normally I'd have a hard time finding elementals in the first place. But then, I'm human. Would you see anything worth catching just by looking?"

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So he shares everything he can currently see. Men have a lot of disadvantages, it's a bit ridiculous. 

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The vision one already came up. No double-counting.


"That one might work." She sends back an image of one of the spirits that didn't dematerialize or burrow or otherwise flee immediately after being spotted. "You'll need it to keep it in place one way or another while you get to it, bind it before it bolts, and lock it down tight enough that it has to take orders. But you know all that."

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"In theory." And he starts moving. Did can-run-on-snow already get added to the Eldar advantages?

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That one doesn't make sense even if they're generically better at everything. Unless they somehow got math to play along. Whatever.

The spirit, a generic ice elemental of the kind that's depressingly common around here, does stay put and isn't powerful enough to put up much resistance.

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"I feel vaguely guilty about this. You're sure they aren't sentient?" he says once it's bound.

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"It's not. More like a computer program than a person or even an animal.

Sentience can get complicated, even some elementals are edge cases, but not ordinary minor ones like this."

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"Computer program?"

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"Maybe a bad choice of analogy. Automaton, if that translates any better."

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That one is familiar; he nods. "How many of these do we need?"

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"There isn't really an enough. We could try for something more specific, if there's an element you think is symbolically appropriate for your ring, but just filling numbers isn't going to change very much."

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He raises an eyebrow. "Symbolically appropriate for the ring would be fire. I don't know that we can get that here."

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"Not if it's fire.
May as well go with what we have, then, and try to avoid confrontations instead of winning them. The weather song will help with that."

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"Great. Where would we get fire, or is that not a thing there are elementals for?"

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"There are, but they'll be somewhere fires are common. Or at the very least somewhere that isn't literally freezing. Keep a fire burning long enough, find an excuse to run magic through it even if it just wastes the magic, and it'll probably attract a fire elemental eventually. If there's one to attract."

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"We could light a fire, but you're the judge of how important symbolic relevance of my ring is."

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"For an implement, symbolism is the most important thing. Second only to whether you can physically carry it around with you, but that hardly ever comes up.

If you have fuel for fires, that might come in handy during the ritual. Since we're expecting a lot of variations on ice and cold."

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"In that case let's acquire a fire spirit for my ring," he says, "and it shall be positively brimming with symbolism. People built sledges out of the wagons and we can requisition and burn them if it's worth it; there's some wood actually set aside for fires, but less of it. And clothes. And books, I suppose, but Eru."

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"My guess is it's not worth it. There aren't exactly flame spirits coming out of the woodwork around here, not even if the woodwork is on fire. It'd probably be a waste of the sledges. If it gets to where we're burning books it definitely was."

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"Can I add it later, or does the implement's power depend mostly on what's going on in the first ceremony it's used for?"

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"It depends on what it is going in. There wouldn't be anything stopping you from sealing an elemental in your implement afterward, but there'd be little or no benefit compared to sealing the elemental in some other thing."

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"All right." He grimaces. "Doing your magic improperly under these circumstances is going to weaken us in it, probably permanently?"

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"That's more a feature of major rituals than of the circumstances, but yes." Unmentioned is that the ritual to make the ice safer is in fact scheduled to be used improperly. They alreadyknow about the permanent consequences.

"I can't think of much else we can do to prepare. We–or at least I, probably you too–should eat and sleep first."

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And they return to the tent. It's windy. It's freezing.

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They do have the sole good source of warmth, but the air one wouldn't do much about the wind even if they deployed it.

Amber eats, feeling vaguely guilty about the fact that she'll probably use up their rations faster than any Elda, and then heads for wherever people sleep on the rare occasions that they do.

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Also in tents, half-buried in the snow. Irissë points her to hers. "I share with my cousin. She won't bother you."

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"Thanks." She enters.

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It's empty at the moment. Warm enough - the snow is actually a bit of an insulator - and very very elaborately outfitted.

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Who decorates their snow-buried tents this well? Oh well, whether it's an Eldar thing or a royalty thing it's not the strangest thing to happen today.

And sleep.

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When she wakes up there's someone there, and some bread on a plate. "Lembas," the newcomer says. "And pleasure to meet you, I'm Artanis."

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"Amber. Pleased to meet you too. You're Irissë's cousin?"

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"Yes. On the sane side of the family tree. You dropped out of the sky."

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"I did. Still don't know how I got here; appearing in midair is less surprising than appearing in the first place."

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"Well. You picked quite the time and place for it, though I guess you can be glad you didn't crash on the other shore."

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"You mean because that's where the non-sane side of the family is? I didn't exactly pick the side, but maybe I would have."

She takes a bite of the bread. "This is surprisingly good. Lembas, you said it was?"

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"Yeah. That much will keep you all day. The Valar taught it to us."

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Magic bread, called lembas. Artanis even looks like– huh.

"There's something like that in fiction where I come from. Only fiction, though. Sounds useful, especially under the circumstances."

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"Yep. We will have about six months before we starve, even if we can't find anything out there."

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"Are you expecting to find enough to make up the difference? If it's anything like the ice continents back home that's not remotely a safe bet."

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"We are expecting to die by the thousands, honestly."

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"Irissë and Findekáno said. But they also said everyone involved knew the risks and made their own choice, and it's not as if the reasons weren't understandable."

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"We have, and we have very good reasons. I'm not angry with our leadership for taking this course, I'm angry that we were left without better ones."

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"The people who left you without better ones did expect you to turn back, from what I've heard, and wouldn't have done it if they knew how you defined better." No need to mention that it was Fëanáro who said it.

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"Oh, he just wants us dead and wants it to happen in a fashion his father would forgive him for. I am sure he had an explanation otherwise, but he's not stupid and he has known us for centuries and we were in any event very clear about our intent."

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"If this was a calculated attempt to kill you, it can't have been a very calculated one. It wouldn't effectively kill any particular person he wants dead, and it wouldn't kill everyone. He'd have to want to do as much damage as possible without caring about who or how angry the survivors are."

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"I didn't say he was good at thinking ahead."

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"That'd be less a case of not thinking ahead and more a case of not thinking at all. And you did say brilliant."

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"The Ice might be deadlier than we think, or the conditions that meet us on the other side might be."

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"And if he's counting on that then he's thinking much further ahead.

I'm not trying to defend the boat burning. Except to say that it doesn't sound like premeditated murder."

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"Yeah, that was Alqualondë. And his attempt on the King's life back in Valinor, I suppose, and who knows if there've been others."

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"Alqualondë was premeditated? I thought we were only mostly sure they even started the fight.

Though apparently dividing up murder into types is something the Enemy used as an accusation against humans, so I might be the only one here to care about that distinction."

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"They started the fight. They charged civilians in armor with weapons drawn, they might have expected surrender but they definitely started the fight."

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"Did you see that? Because that doesn't sound at all easily mistaken for an unprovoked attack by the civilians."

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"I grew up in Alqualondë, my friends and cousins died on that beach, and it is being mistaken for an unprovoked attack by the civilians only because my lord cousin Findekáno does not really want to admit to himself that he helped his cousins carry out a mass execution."

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That isn't a yes, but maybe try not cross-examining the recently bereaved on exactly how much of the mass slaughter she saw. "I'm sorry about your friends. 

Are you planning to try for revenge, or grit your teeth and ally against the more capitalized Enemy?"

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"I'm going to kill Curufinwë."

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"Before or after he helps save the world? He doesn't seem all that replaceable, and the Valar might be even more guilty. I assume you'd accept help from them if they weren't pointed the wrong direction."

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"He's no help with saving the world. He's smart, but plenty of people are, and he's incapable of working with others or sharing, and he wants me dead and I'm at least as smart as him and so may as well end things first. What are the Valar guilty of, except giving him too much latitude?"

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"Killing a lot more people, if that's how the Doom works and it turns out to apply to your group as well. Especially if the other version of the story is more than just Findekáno's wishful thinking. Not to mention announcing that everyone affected will die in vain when some of their goals are ones that the Valar really ought to share."

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"Killing murderers isn't the same thing as killing innocents. And Moringotto will fall, just not as a consequence of anything Fëanor does."

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"No, but killing people who happen to be descended from murderers is. And killing people who happen to cross the same ocean as murderers is. And killing people who honestly thought they were defending their family is. Any one of those might apply, since the Valar weren't even specific about which variety of guilt by association they were using. That's aside from the fact that it's backstabbing people fighting a common enemy.

How are you so sure you can beat Moringotto?"

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"It's not that I think we can, it's that I think eventually the Valar will. I'm not crossing to fight the war. I trust the Valar to handle it, and none of us stand the slightest chance anyway. I'm crossing because I want to live on the other side."

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"I can't fault your realism, I suppose.

Would that change if we did have a chance to win?"

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"I think our chances of winning are better without him. With him, there will be a civil war sooner or later, and some of his sons who know it's wrong and would do anything to avert it will nonetheless obey his orders in conducting it once it's started. And with him, we can't get the local populace involved in the war effort. If the war were winnable all the more reason for him to die immediately."

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"Potentially winnable by resources we have and they don't, also Fëanáro may hopefully have been convinced to delegate leadership" would be suspiciously specific.

"Trying to kill him sounds like a good way of starting a civil war. You realize this puts you at odds with everyone on both sides who wants to delay that."

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"Nolofinwë's not going to imprison me, I'm his niece and he knows I'm right. The other side will obviously kill me if they get the chance, and we'll see who's faster."

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"Civil war as soon as possible, then. That doesn't make it sound better." 

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"Killing him prevents the civil war. I flee to Elwë, Nolofinwë says that our grievance is now settled, Maitimo decides whether he wants to kill Findekáno or die at his hand, picks 'neither', and there's no war."

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"Or you get caught and the grievance doesn't get settled, or you don't get caught and Maitimo isn't the one making the decisions, or they know in advance that opinions like yours are common and they decide to take preemptive action.

I don't know the political situation. Arrived yesterday. But I arrived from a place full of humans, who apparently kill each other more than you do. And revenge murders tend not to work out."

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"They do know my opinion, I told Fëanáro to his face. And they won't catch me. If Maitimo's not running things I'll reconsider."

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"...if you tried something analogous on my world you would have no chance. Are assassinations just easier here?"

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"No one's ever done it before, I don't think my cousins will think to have all the right precautions in place."

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"You said Findekáno's is using wishful thinking to avoid blaming himself for Alqualondë. Can you tell me you aren't doing the same thing so you get to kill the person who deserves it?"

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"I will have very powerful allies across the sea. The King across the sea is the brother of the King of Alqualondë. I think my estimation of what I can do is right; if I'm wrong, it's only my own life I'm risking, because Curufinwë certainly won't start a war over his niece trying and failing to stab him, that's just be embarrassing to him. And I'm confident in my estimation of Maitimo, you can ask other people for confirmation of that."

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"Kings don't take well to assassination attempts. People who call themselves kings either. There nothing at all he might do short of a war, or is he just going to shrug and move on?"

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"I don't know what he'll do to me. I know he won't start a war with them, unless he's planning to already, in which case the way to stop him is to kill him."

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"Assuming he knows you were acting on your own, it's still pretty unlikely that there wouldn't be people imitating you. If he can, I don't know, expand borders into somewhere you were planning to use, or deny aid when you need it, the fact that there's an occasional murder attempt isn't likely to help. It's not just war or nothing unless he's very uncreative."

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"He is, when it comes to politics. And I won't try it if I'm not pretty sure I can succeed. But, yes, trying and failing would be a bad outcome, agreed. He cannot be in charge of a significant military force. He is a disaster in Noldorin form."

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"What would it take to convince you not to? Getting him to let someone else lead? Maybe we could take advantage of that moronic oath, offer an alliance or whatever else might help them get their Silmarils back in exchange for Maitimo taking over their army. There exist disasters that can be solved without murder."

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"I'd agree to that, yes. Findekáno will have a seizure."

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"He will?"

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"He -" You know what, actually, that'd be stooping pretty low. Ask him.

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"Oh, I thought you meant something political." Is it stooping low enough to be offensive to ask about?

He already knows about Fëanáro having hopefully delegated as much as possible including the army; if Maitimo is the obvious person to delegate to there should maybe have been a seizure.

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...yes, definitely, but you're the one trying to maneuver Maitimo into power, you should probably have full information.

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The oath thing was hypothetical; I wanted to check if you'd accept non-murder even if getting Maitimo in charge of their military sounds unlikely.

I'll ask Findekáno if it looks like there's a way to manage it worth trying.

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Have fun.

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Fun. Not exactly the goal, but I wouldn't object. See you.

She heads out of the tent.

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Hey. Sleep well?

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Yeah. Surprisingly well, actually, I'd hardly have even known it was an arctic wasteland.

You ready for the ritual?

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We are. Let's go.

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Great. Including Findekáno, You should use your royalty powers to requisition firewood. We know what we're up against; fire can help depending on how against.

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Royalty powers? he says, amused. How does governance work among Men? And yes, I already have.

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It's the collecting it with no questions asked that fewer people could pull off. Lord of a city, maybe, but that's only among practitioners. Regular government would have—osanwë equivalent of a shudder—paperwork. And they'd have to pay for it, of course, but you don't use money here. 

She activates the transportation, with a brief pause to figure out how not to soak the firewood with a flying machine made entirely of water.

 

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And they're off. Can this ritual also be of use in trying to protect territory from the Enemy during the war?

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Theoretically. Nowhere near this much territory, though; it'd take actual numbers.

Which would be this same dilemma all over again.

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A fortress, something like that.

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That would be maybe not completely unprecedented, but still way beyond the usual use. What we're trying today is unprecedented as far as I know; we're pretty much misusing it for a better reason.

May as well give more detail. She sends a summary of what the ritual is meant for, why it can help with this instead, and why it has to be Eldar doing it.

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Huh. Well, definitely worth it, though it's inconvenient that we're now halfway through the list of people I trust absolutely on an irrevocable power use thing. In your world what happens when someone loses theirs, are they just doomed?

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The ritual involves making a, not quite a promise, but a pretty strongly implied statement of intent. Losing it is bad karma, more than practitioners normally want to risk. I wouldn't call it doom, though. And anyone who does loses out on a major power source on top of the bad karma.

She's not going to be the first to say things out loud, even if they should be out of hearing by now.

 

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Okay. Let's land and build our fire.

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They land halfway between the near edge and the midpoint of the Ice. About fifty miles as the crow or crow-analogue flies.

The fire, one of the spare ice elementals to ensure they don't melt a hole underneath, a protective seal, a series of almost overlapping diagrams radiating outward and standing ready to have the last lines finished. Just so that wherever anything appears, it's probably standing in one. They do have some advantages.

(Part way through, Amber mentions that it has been an Earth day since she arrived. Digital watches: a pretty neat idea, if surprisingly easy to forget about.)

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"About half the length of our old ones, then. At a guess."

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"I guess there was no reason to expect it to be similar." And from their point of view, that means it sounds like humans need twice the food and sleep for half the life span.

"Anyway, who wants to do the first half of the Ice?"

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"I will."

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"OK, you've got the script, if you do it while singing for the volume increase you should be audible to the edge but hopefully not far enough past there that anyone overhears. Irissë, you can do a weather song for warmth and clear skies? I can join in if someone who doesn't know the song would help."

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"I don't think Men can sing precisely enough for magic. You could try."

And Findekáno starts.

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It's very much Findekáno's show, but there's no magical reason others can't talk. Or sing, as the case may be. Amber joins Irissë; this is a pretty good time for "not proven impossible" even if it's yet another embarrassment to her species.

It's just words, not osanwë, but enough Quenya is recognizable by now that the first few lines make sense. I hereby make a claim. Let this be my statement.

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"I claim this space and only this space. Let this be my challenge."

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The wind howls. But it's carrying his voice instead of drowning it out. Everything he says bears a sense of significance, more felt than heard.

He gets through the bit about how if anyone objects they can meet him here for a fair contest of mutual agreement, and for a moment nothing happens. The wind dies down, and no opposition materializes.

After that moment, nothing continues to happen.

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He joins the others in the song for good weather.

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Eventually nothing finishes happening.

The ground beneath them shudders and bulges upward, seeming to gain more ice out of nowhere. It obliterates half the preemptive diagrams exactly as easily as the unadorned ground. The bulge resolves into a shape, not humanoid and not even very clearly defined but at least distinguishable from its surroundings. It spreads horizontally and vertically, glacially slowly, staying away from the fire, until it takes up the entire field of vision toward the center of the Ice. The good news is, it's blocking some of the wind.

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The not-good news is he is not sure how they're supposed to oppose it.

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It starts introducing itself before bringing up anything about the challenge.

It doesn't use language. Just sense impressions. An enormous tower, topped by a brilliant sky-blue light. Back when the sky was blue. Itself, smaller than it is now, watching as the tower collapses and everything is plunged into darkness. Chaos from the collapse, blue flame pouring out and driving off most spirits, but by then it is already old and strong. It doesn't wither. The land settling into its current form, spirits returning or reappearing, thriving. Itself and the few similarly old elementals having uncontested dominion.

This last is represented in its almost-mind by reference to the claim Findekáno just made: ownership isn't a concept it's seen much of before, but the words of practitioners are a comprehensible fact of the universe just as much as the melting point of ice. This is especially true of common and powerful rituals like this one; right now it can handle a lot more than usual of what would look to a practitioner like abstraction. In particular it knows that it gets the first chance to name or exclude a possible part of the challenge or stakes.

Another impression: itself, lesser spirits, staying away from the uncomfortable warmth. Itself, as the oldest and largest and most capable of thought, stepping in first.

It proposes stakes. If the elemental wins, the young upstart practitioner continues with the claim, exactly as it is doing (even today, no possible stretch of memories and impressions can let the elemental manage pronouns), and surrenders the demesne to the elemental as soon as it earns it.

The ice mutters at the mouths of the sea. The elemental waits for Findekáno's answer. Despite the otherwise perfectly clear skies, it looks like it's snowing above the elemental's surface.

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"I can agree to surrender the demesne to you in three months' time, once it has sheltered my people."

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"In exchange for helping keep the other spirits away," Amber stammers to Findekáno. "Instead of as a forfeit if we lose."

Some of those lesser spirits the ice elemental showed them were well within the "run away from" category. 

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"All right. If you help us defend our claim, you can have the demesne in three months' time. I don't suppose the workings of the war we go to fight are of interest to you?"

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It starts either shrinking or retreating, hard to tell which. "I'm willing to wait for it" per se isn't in its vocabulary, but it doesn't say no to this. Impressions of demanding a lesser being move out of its way, satisfaction at getting its due. Not very flattering, as yeses go.

No response to the war question. It lacks a frame of reference for what a war even looks like, let alone this one in particular.

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You weren't expecting beings that powerful?

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I was expecting powerful. Too powerful to easily deal with, even, I was thinking we'd rely on having some control over what the challenges are. I wasn't expecting that powerful.

That tower it mentioned, was that one of the Trees?

It did sound more literal than that earlier, but it's either that or they literally used to light the world with foliage.

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Are elementals that powerful very uncommon in your world?

 

And the Globes, probably.

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Uncommon is one way to put it. I had to hunt to find anything powerful enough for flight, and I fly with two spirits that we call moderate. I wish I had two of anything on that level. Or one.

What are the Globes? Never mind, it's probably not important right now. She resumes singing to the weather.

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You can sing and osanwë. Unless it's too distracting? The Globes are how the Valar tried lighting the world before they tried the Trees.

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And it didn't work, apparently. Same reason, or a different one?

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Almost exactly the same. After a couple million years the Enemy knocked them over.

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Might be a good thing that ice spirit wasn't interested in the war. It did seem to come out ahead from that.

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It should know what Melkor is. I don't know how it'd feel about him. 

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If we told it Melkor's the one the war's against and it cared enough to have an opinion, I wouldn't want to bet one way or the other on what that opinion is. Maybe there'll be something else that size that we can enlist.

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I sort of figured Melkor made more enemies than friends. Bit of a jerk. Also had a history of aggressively pursuing the female Valar and Maiar, maybe if we get one of those we can broach the subject.

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A jerk as well as evil. Not even trying for classy villainhood.

I don't think Others are Maiar; non-practitioners can talk to those. But if we happen to run into one, may as well ask.

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If you're looking for classy villainhood I've heard his various lieutenants include some of the civil and conversational sort of murdering torturers.

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I wouldn't say looking. The lot of them sound like they need a good tearing apart from the biggest spirit we can spare, but he could at least be polite about his evil.

Sorry. I shouldn't be so facetious about all this. Melkor: responsible for an awful lot of deaths and tearing apart this family in particular. Yeah.

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It's okay, we all have a morbid sense of humor. To cope. One of the popular discussion topics in camp is in which order you'd kill the sons of Fëanor, if you got the chance. Doesn't mean anyone'd do it.

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Oh, right, Artanis said she's going to kill Fëanáro and also said she might not; remind me to ask you about that when you're not in the middle of a ritual.

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Is it likely to distract me? She's not going to do it. She'll ask Elwë, if Elwë is alive, and hopefully he'll have more sense. Fëanáro is also rather likely to get himself killed with no kinslaying required.

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It is likely to distract you, apparently.

She plans to ask for help after the fact, unless this was just hypothetical like you mentioned. Hard to picture her telling me without it being common knowledge enough for you to already know.

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She gave a speech about it. It's probably part of why Fëanáro decided to leave! But how were we going to stop her?

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From speaking? Not easily. Convincing her and whatever percentage she speaks for not to do it, that's separately hard.

Is Fëanáro likely to get himself killed before we get there given that we're likely getting there faster than expected?

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I'd say it's fifty-fifty.

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You know, when he said anyone was welcome who wasn't currently calling for his death I wasn't thinking it'd be a hard condition. At least that's a problem for after getting there.

No new challengers have appeared since the first one left.

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He was really angry about Artanis. He sighs. They've never really gotten along.

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Evidently.

She didn't make your list of people you trust with irrevocable magic power, did she? The one you're halfway through?

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No, he says rather firmly. 

 

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Good. Just on general anti-murder principle, you understand.

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On the general principle that loyalty and a modicum of political savvy were qualifying criteria.

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Multiple reasons, then.

 

Eventually: if there aren't any challengers, you can just declare victory. May as well insert a second statement in between. The spirits like threes.

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Is it better to address the thing where we're abandoning it, and try to spin that, or to just pretend we're not doing it?

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I haven't heard of anyone doing this before. Good question. My guess is not talking about it until after. That's probably worse karma, but probably more likely to work at all.

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Then what's a good second comment?

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Content isn't really the point, just that there will have been three chances to contradict you. "For the second time I say, if any would deny me this demesne let them approach and whatever." It's entirely theater.

Also we should formally say we're not challenging you. Too bad that one can't happen in threes.

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"For the second time I say, if any would deny me this demesne let them approach and make their challenge." And it could? Irissë at least has three titles, if that counts.

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Findekáno's voice does the dramatically ringing through the air thing again.

"No contest."

That could help if each title had a separate right to object, but she's only one practitioner. Doesn't matter much; there's not a lot that can go wrong with not challenging you anyway.

 

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"No contest."

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Nothing resumes happening. As expected.

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"For the third time I say, if any would deny me this demesne let them approach and make their challenge." 

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The song is keeping the sky clear, but the ground shakes and kicks up ice and snow. None of that happens in their immediate vicinity; their backup did its job well.

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Is that it? Are we done?

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You just need to finish the ritual. You've satisfied all comers, you can claim victory. Be dramatic about it.

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"This land is older than the Trees," he says, "older than the stars under which the Eldar first awakened, older than the Age we were born to and the Ages we've seen since. I have satisfied all challengers. I name it as my own. It will protect my people."

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The upper limit, as opposed to the much smaller practical limits, is that the territory has to be within reach of the practitioner's voice.

Eldar are completely unfair.

 

As soon as it's over Findekáno acquires a whateverth sense he's on now. It's unmistakably his place, this giant chunk of nowhere; he can feel what's present and what's occurring almost as well as a human can sense the condition of their own arm. What this sense has to say at the moment, other than "wow there's a lot of it," is that every time a notable Other steps in there's a feeling demanding a bit of his attention. It's easy enough to ignore, and his borders are wide enough that there's no other option, but ignoring it seems wrong. Not painful, closer to incorrect. But each time it happens is a reminder that he own this much space now, out to here.

"It worked?"

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"Sure feels like it. There are people walking over it. Your kind, not mine. Wow." He's smiling. 

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"Then we're halfway there.

It usually only makes you more powerful by a disappointing amount at first, if at all, but it should be up to normal in weeks at most."

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He nods. "Should I mark the boundaries or something?"

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"Aesthetics is the easiest change, it'll stand out as different soon even if you don't consciously do anything."

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"Cool. Should we do the other one today? Or should I stay here? Should I do anything about the people walking around in it?"

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"Theoretically yes, you're responsible for managing your demesne. If there are Others present who don't acknowledge it as your place, they don't even have to be people, it can gradually eat away at your claim. You can even lose it, on a scale of decades. I won't say the fact that it takes decades means you don't have anything to worry about."

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"No simple hack like I declare them to have permission to be here?"

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"If they agree that you granting permission means anything. Which it does, but the fact that it's agreed on is a big part of why. Any problem that does come up will be slow, though.

Like I said, I'm not going to say you've got nothing to worry about. Since the spirits can hear."

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"I understand you. I just want to do things right."

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"Then, yes, that would mean finding everyone who's here and introducing yourself as the practitioner whose demesne they're in. Most anything will understand that, even if it doesn't understand anything else. They'll either agree it's your demesne or they don't, and they know not agreeing is equivalent to starting a fight where everything is stacked in your favor."

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"If we can afford the cost to time, then, I'd like to fly around and say hello to everything that's walking on my territory."

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"This did go a lot faster than it could have.

You'll have to navigate; I won't be able to spot much of anything very easily."

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Elven eyesight makes finding them very straightforward, and in any event he knows where they are.

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None of the Others present can speak, so saying hello will be a bit one-sided, but they do understand what he's doing. He's a practitioner.

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And are they inclined to pick a fight?

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Nope. Even before he was a practitioner in his demesne, the most likely ones did get chased away by a much more superlative Other that (they'd assume, if they could assume) works for him.

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Great. He's in a much better mood after that. "Should we try to do Irissë's today as well?"

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"No reason not to!"

They've circumnavigated their way to the edge of Findekáno's demesne already, so it's only from the midpoint to the approximate three-quarters mark. "You've got the script?"

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"I do. No-longer-technically-unprecedented thing, here we go."

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Amber starts singing the probably-not-humanly-magical weather song.

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And she conducts the ritual.

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The first respondent, challenger not being quite the right word, is the same entity from the last ritual. It sends her its impression of keeping other elementals away in exchange for Findekáno's promise to surrender the demesne later, and then it just sits there expecting her to agree to the same deal.

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I suppose I probably should, but I'm trying to think if there's anything else.

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You mean instead of all but winning the demesne for you?

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Fine.

She agrees to the deal.

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It replies with a series of impressions of itself ordering around lesser nature spirits, and turns to go do that.

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He's a pretty chill guy, really.

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I'm not sure how much it distinguishes between us and all those other lesser beings. Oh well, my dignity can take it.

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In twenty thousand years I"ll come be like 'who's a silly little child now, big elemental, huh?"

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And it'd think that's still you, and it'd be so irrelevant by then that you'd have even less reason to care about its opinion.

 

 

The other elementals, presumably already used to anarchy that it runs, keep their distance.

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Ad she repeats the challenge for a second time.

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And it gets transmitted to potential recipients, with extra emphasis added. Irissë's claims are especially noticeable to Findekáno, as the owner of a nearby demesne.

 

"No contest."

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"No contest." This is so much fun.

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It does traditionally involve contests, but rigging the game so effectively it doesn't even happen is fantastic.

 

More singing, and the killing of time so the final repetition isn't right on top of this one.

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Is it bad form to run it too short?

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Kind of. The point is to give people three chances more than it is to say the sentence three times; doing it right away would be barely better than doing it twice. Once would be enough, since you'll be able to truthfully say you've met all the challenges, but appearances matter.

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Macalaure'd adore this. 

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Who?

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Cousin of mine. One of The Cousins, so he can't ever do it, but he loves the dramatic and does beautiful rhetoric and choreographs his every moment in a way that I feel like your spirits would enjoy. And he'd be delighted to have an audience.

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Most of us have to work at that. They'd love him, if it weren't for all the everything.

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All the everything is a good way to put it.

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Unfortunately. They could be fantastic allies if there were less everything.

I can't wait to show up and let them wonder how we managed it so well.

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I am really looking forward to that.

 

She makes the third challenge.

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"Hello."

The speaker presumably approached at some point, but is definitely present. Humanoid, long-haired and long-limbed, all straight lines and angles. Armed and armored, with equipment visibly inferior to what Irissë is familiar with and obviously not a matching set.

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"Hello." She should probably say more than that but what -

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What - 

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"You're an Elda. Aren't you." The newcomer's skin stays perfectly smooth regardless of rapidly changing facial expression while they spit out the word.

"I'm supposed to decide if I want you as a neighbor, but it doesn't have to be a hard choice."

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We make good neighbors. Except for to the Teleri, but I wasn't even involved in that-

No, she can't say that.

"I'm Irissë," she says, "it's not nice to meet you but it's fairly exciting, and in the interests of fair sport you should at least know that we have allies in defending this territory. If you're planning to challenge me for it."

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"I haven't had a use for a name in a long time.

I don't care about here; it's what comes after I'm wondering about. If you come much farther you might find you have more enemies than allies. Not that I mind if you're at each others' throats."

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"We are kind of expecting that. We are planning to fight until we all die, so the amount of death on our end is pretty fixed; if you're in favor of us taking lots of the other side down with us, you could be a bit more specific about what we should expect."

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"Orcs, of course. Past here it's their land."

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"Yeah. That's why we're trying to get over there. Are there - particular orcs you want dead? Or just all of them, in general?"

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An unsettlingly symmetrical shrug. "I like seeing them afraid. And I know better than anyone how much they fear Elves. Probably it's even worth it to let you over, so I don't plan to ask a penalty you can't pay."

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"Is afraid better than dead? Because we weren't really planning a campaign of terror, just some efficient mercy-executions, but I guess that's negotiable." Dubiously. 

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"Both are good. There are a lot of them. But I'm not settling for an offer to be slightly scarier.

For the contest, you don't have to stay in one place. First one to be here with the head of an orc?"

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"If I win," she says, "you advise us in where we can find our mutual enemy. If I lose, I have to stake out the boundary of my whole territory with the heads of orcs."

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"East boundary. You're planning on killing that many anyway, and no point in decorating the parts they won't see."

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"Deal."

 

That okay?

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That's a lot of orcs. Aren't they people?

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Yes, but they serve the Enemy and are better off dead anyway. 

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That sounds highly questionable. But if what I landed on last time I crossed was any indication there are going to be that many orc casualties anyway...

You'd have the world's most macabre demesne and that would normally influence what kind of magic you find easiest. Other than those, it sounds like what people here would consider reasonable stakes. But I don't know who or even what this guy is. There could be anything going on we don't know about.

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Yeah. But we can fly, right? So we can win the contest.

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Yeah, and it might seem like a safe proposal if he didn't know about that.

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All right, worst case I have a creepy demesne. I can live with that.

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"Just say when you're ready." The Other is fidgeting or gesturing or something, but there's no apparent purpose.

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"Uh, back home we'd shake hands, walk ten paces away, and then go, can we do that? It's more fun."

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"Yes but then I'd have to shake hands with you. I'll happily walk ten paces away."

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"I've shaken hands with people I cheerfully loathe, and will do so again on the other side. It means 'I can beat you fairly', not 'I think you're a good use of the essences that make you up'. But okay."

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He walks ten paces away.

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So does she.

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And her opponent starts lazily watching for when she's going to start moving.

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She draws her bow and fires it, far out of sight. "Let's go," she says to them.

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Water, elementals, practitioners. Less water than before; there isn't quite comfortable elbow room, but they can move fast.

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"We're probably going to have to go all the way to the continent to find orcs, I don't think there are any here."

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"What were you shooting?"

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"Well, if the universe runs on drama it could've put an orc there for me, but mostly I just wanted to tell if being a practitioner changed anything."

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"It could, but I doubt the spirits would think it makes a good story.

Changed anything?"

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"Strength or dexterity or concentration or senses-wise."

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"Did it?"

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"Nope."

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"Good. That'd be inconvenient."

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And a voice from behind, naturally inaudible to humans at any kind of distance, "You can turn around if you want to save some time. Got one."

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"There weren't any orcs in the vicinity," she says, annoyed. 

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"So we are heading to the continent, then?"

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"No, he says he already got one, but there weren't any nearby."

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"Might be lying. Some Others can, and I still don't know what we're dealing with. And if he's not lying there's no penalty for being late to admit he wins."

 

He is in fact holding a headlike object, both he and it facing their direction.

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"We're still going to fetch one," she says, "even if you're a spoilsport. See you soon."

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There is for one reason or another no response.

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They ride out to the edge of the continent.

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It's mostly unoccupied by non-orcs. And dark, but that part doesn't stand out.

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Finding and killing an orc is not hard.

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Hard isn't the problem. Beheading as a bargaining chip is pretty dark even by magic's standards. There is also a war on, but that just means it isn't out of place.


And flying back with the thing.

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She is pretty unbothered by this. She does a lot of hunting. 

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When they return, the headlike object is in fact a head. Clearly not a recent acquisition, and there are bite marks on it.

"Not in great condition, but then, it wasn't when the orc was alive either. I've been trying to be a good Elf where it counts."

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"I don't know what you mean," she says. "The general criteria for good Elfhood are, like, singing and liking beautiful things."

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"No. Well, I'm sure you do those too, but even orcs have that. Elfhood means that." He motions towards the heads.

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"I know like two hundred thousand Elves, and the vast majority of them have lived their whole lives, and will, without meeting any orcs."

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"The reverse is true of them. It's still one of their defining traits to hate you. Pathetic, really."

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"Oh. Uh, my defining traits are that I'm the best shot on the continent I left and plan to be the best one on the one I'm reaching, that I wear white even when it's impractical, and that I am of the King's house. I am good at killing orcs because I have a lot of goals that require it, I don't have anything against them."

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"I'm sure the fact that Elves have individual traits will make a lot of difference to them. They're all completely interchangeable for all purposes, of course.

If you still want to know where they are, it's usually everywhere. Higher concentrations the further you go, their fortress is about five hundred miles east and one north."

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"I didn't think they'd care. I thought you would, since you seem like you've never met us before and seemed to believe we all hate orcs or something."

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"Or something."

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"What is it?"

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"War's been going on for for a long time, that's one thing. Fighting over territory, at least there's a reason. Then more Elves turn up, and they don't just hold where they are, they slaughter their way through armies of orcs. Rather impressively, too. Three guesses what they do with the bodies, and the first two don't count. Oh, and they consider being an orc worse than being dead. And they enforce that, entirely separately from the fact that they're at war. Maybe you say it's not hatred, but it looks nice and symmetric to me."

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"...if we hated them and thought killing them a favor, why would we do it?"

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Shrug. "Maybe there are other things Elves care about other than whatever's worst for orcs. Singing or beauty or taking orc land. Or maybe no one actually thinks they're better dead than alive and it's convenient to say it because it lets them feel like good people.

But I can assume orcs and Elves will act horrible to each other, and I don't really have to care about what's on the inside of your heads even if I do end up being wrong."

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"Yeah. Fair. Alright. We'll decorate my territory, you'll be welcome to visit it."

 

Third call?

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"Well, glad I stopped by. And I consider my challenge answered." He leaves, walking on snow rather than making a sudden disappearance to match the entrance.

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That was three. You should be able to claim victory; it's been longer than Findekáno's took and that one worked.

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So she claims her demesne. It does work. She smiles broadly. "Orc-hunting?"

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"Now? I guess it does have to get done."

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"Not many wars where you're from, huh?"

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"Yes, lots. No, none at all, not one. Depends how broadly you mean where I'm from."

And flying continentward. Flying over a wide corridor of owned territory reaching from one end of the Ice to the other, though it's still visually indistinguishable even to people with superpowers.

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"I meant that you were personally familiar with."

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"Haven't been in one.

Actually, what we're doing right now might be illegal on my world even as part of a war."

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"Really? Why?"

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"My world has had a lot of wars. Somewhere along the line a bunch of treaties started listing things nations agreed to at least pretend not to do. Weapons we don't use, mistreating prisoners, unnecessary collateral damage. I don't know if marking your border with heads is considered a war crime or not, but it's definitely the kind of thing that convinces other countries yours is the bad guy."

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"I don't think we're at much risk of giving off that impression in this fight."

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"I mean, if Earth has treaties against this it's probably because it would get extra attention for looking gratuitously evil. Not that looking worse than the Enemy is an actual risk."

Wars on Earth very rarely involve breaking continents. If they did, there wouldn't be any treaties about it because there wouldn't be enough surviving countries.

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"We should've invented treaties against killing civilians and stealing their boats. It just didn't come up much. We'd never had a war before."

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"Yeah, I think having had a lot of wars was an important part of that."

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They spot some orcs, by Elven eyesight, not all that much farther on.

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I think I should land. We could kill them more safely from up here, but if we're lucky the Enemy doesn't know about the flight yet.

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Yeah, sounds good. Won't be that dangerous anyway. We have better vision and I'm almost certainly a better shot.

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Depending on number of orcs and how much they depend on heat vision, it should be some degree of easy to get down without being spotted. Especially with magic rendering them un-spotted when necessary.

 

You have better vision. I'd be surprised if I do.

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It's my demesne, I'll do the shooting. And she does. And the beheading, rather cleanly.

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This probably isn't an errand they can do in one trip, but it's inadvisable to lean hard on a demesne right away anyway. Time isn't a problem.

Irissë's busy being very good at killing things, and the orcs don't seem to be posing much of a threat depite their efforts. Findekáno, think you could be distracted for a minute?

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Yes.

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So, Artanis' condition for not killing Fëanáro is that he put Maitimo in charge of their army.

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Well.

 

 

 

That's at least an interestingly bad idea. Did she explain herself?

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I think the main point was to have Fëanáro be not doing it. Why interestingly bad? 

Apart from seizures, that is.

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Maitimo is a much more strategic thinker than his father. He wouldn't have lit the ships on fire, for instance, if he wanted us dead he'd have loaded them up and sabotaged them a hundred miles from shore. And then rescued a few people, heroically, who he thought would be useful once the people they followed had drowned.

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Oh.

And are your deaths the kind of thing he's likely to want, relative to whatever his father is doing?

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I used to think I had a good sense of his goals but then I realized at high cost that 'get Findekáno to trust me and share things with me that I can relay to my father' had been among them, and that therefore I couldn't rely on much of what he'd told me about the others.

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Was that because of the boats, or yet another round of betraying?

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Boats and events and conversations immediately surrounding boats. And Alqualondë though at the time I thought that was just a communication failure.

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Is Maitimo less bad than his father, at least? Or if not is there anyone who would be; Artanis just mentioned his name as the obvious person to replace Fëanáro.

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Yes, I think he is. I think he'd be much likelier to win us the war, at least. I could not call him my King.

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Apparently him being in charge—of their army, not their kingship, though maybe that always goes together here—would also give you a seizure. I assume it's the metaphorical kind.

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The ring was a gift from him. A promise to not do the thing that he ended up doing.

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At some level of abstraction, since nobody expected the specific thing enough to make promises about it?

Supposedly there's some reason you'd want him not in charge that I should ask about if it might actually happen even though asking would be extremely offensive. If he broke promises personally as well as politically that doesn't sound like why. Do you know what Artanis was referencing, and if so should I just stop talking.

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I don't want him in charge but I don't like any of the outcomes available to me. It might be worth it. He might be easier to work with. He also might play us all very gracefully and then twitch a finger and we all die of something that he couldn't possibly be blamed for. There's no strategically relevant information you don't have but Artanis will probably aggressively keep dropping hints until you figure it out, the likelihood of which I can't assess without knowing more about your society.

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I don't want to say any guesses because "is THIS the horribly offensive thing Findekáno did? How about THAT one, that seems plausible?" sounds really likely to blow up in somebody's face. If it's not relevant to anything important I can just act like there's too much cultural difference for the hints to mean anything even after I end up with more than guesses.


Where I'm from there isn't a very long list of things more offensive than stacking up the heads of your enemies to make a point. If someone outright said what the allegation is, I doubt I'd care much in comparison to whatever strategic crisis is going on at the time.

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I will have a talk with Artanis. There are no barriers to this approach beyond all the obvious ones.

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Good. It all just seems so...trivial, what with there being literally a war on.

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Well, the question at issue is whether we can conduct a war together.

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Well, you've said it doesn't affect the war and I guess most people don't know how much you have riding on not being wrong.

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Yeah.

 

Irissë is done headhunting.

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In the uncomfortably literal sense. A good thing to be done with. 

In that case more flight, and they never did specify a frequency of heads per unit length; maybe with orc vision it'll need fewer of them to count as marking the border.

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She's honestly enjoying this. What did she want to ask you about?

 

How I'll cope if we decide to settle the succession dispute by bending knee to Maitimo. Artanis apparently predicted I'd react badly, and stopped just shy of explaining exactly why.

 

How will you cope?

 

There's a war on. I'll win it.

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Depending on exactly how much of the edge Irissë claimed, a single batch might not be enough. But they've got time and it's not as if the orcs pose much threat. Finishing goes by quickly.

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And they fly back to their host with good news. She pats her brother's shoulder a little reassuringly.

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"I haven't given much thought to a cover story, since succeeding would be great regardless. If you just say the good news and ask people not to ask why, is anyone going to be too curious?"

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"Rabidly, but I don't think they'll hit on the truth."

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"The truth is completely bizarre, there's that. What I'm worrying about is that it'll be obvious I had something to do with it, and then it'll be easy enough to guess that my fake religion actually works. That's probably too close."

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"We met a Power of the Ice, somewhat well-inclined to us, who agreed to cooperate with us? Is that close enough to true?"

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"Can we say a Power? I thought that meant just the, well, the Powers. If that word isn't too specific then it's all true."

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"There's never been something that wasn't one of the Ainur that the word was suited to, I think it's a bit ambiguous." She shakes her head. "We'll go with that."

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"Perfect.

Do you think it could apply to us now? Your cousins probably think I'm one, and it's as true of you two as me."

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"Maybe we're the power equivalent of very minor Maiar."

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Shrug. "If they ask and I can say they're overstating it, that might be better than saying no. 'Course, there'll be a whole host of people who know better and it'd probably come out pretty soon anyway."

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"And the cousins have an annoying habit of being unimpressed by people who have the power to kill them ten times over. The Valar sent a herald to Fëanáro to tell him to turn back, and he stepped right up and gave the herald a lecture."

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"That sounds amazing to watch. Reckless, but still.

Can't say I wish I'd seen it though, or then might be possibly-doomed. Too many of those already."

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"Yeah, I'm glad this is your plan and that you showed up too late for possible Dooming."

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"Yeah.

 

It'll be a week or so before the Ice is ready, and we should probably test it in advance. How long would it take from the ice Power announcement until everyone's ready to go?"

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"As long as we ask of them. The Noldor are - pretty good at getting things done, if nothing else."

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"We'll still have food after crossing—we could offer some to your cousins and see if they take it—but I don't know how long we'd need to figure out a stable source. Getting there sooner might buy some time."

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"A week it is." She's grinning. "I can't wait to see their faces."

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"Me neither. Wish we could take credit for it, but even if we have to let them think we just got lucky."

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"Findekáno says you favor asking Fëanáro to abdicate in his son's favor, and then reconciling with Maitimo."

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"I told him he should delegate kinging while he does something he's better at, of which I've heard there are least one or two things, and he seemed to take it seriously. No idea what he's doing now, of course. And Artanis says that if Fëanáro's not running the army she wouldn't have to kill him.

On a world populated entirely by monarchists maybe this does amount to abdicating, but I hope it doesn't end up with who gets to wear the title being a sticking point."

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"'monarchists'? And the sticking point is who gives the orders."

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"Good, that's where it should be.

A lot of countries aren't monarchies, and even in those that are the person who technically reigns isn't necessarily giving the orders. Our Queen's official duties involve looking royal at important events, that was her face on the coin you used in the awakening ritual, but we elect the people who do the actual ruling."

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"Father'd win if it were put to a public vote. Before the burning of the ships Maitimo would have."

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"And if he knew everyone agreed he was in charge until the next election, he might then have not burned the ships. I don't know. I think you could really benefit from having already been a republic, but there's no way that's a priority right now."

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"And it sounds bad for the war effort to change who's running it more often than absolutely necessary."

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"Probably. Not as much help for settling succession disputes once they've started, either."

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"And everyone would have united behind Fëanor if he hadn't sworn that stupid Oath. So if we'd all chosen him and then he'd gone on and done that -"

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"There's that. That would be why we elect prime ministers and not dictators; nobody would have the power to swear that stupid Oath."

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"What's the distinction? And how would you stop them?"

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"It's a much more complicated system and there's no single person with that much authority. We couldn't stop people from swearing oaths any more than we can stop them from speaking, but if they did then the rest of the government would inform them that they don't get to declare there's exactly one priority and no one has to follow them no matter what their job title is."

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"Seems like it could have its advantages and, like you said, isn't a priority. Maitimo'll do a good job, if he doesn't actually want us dead and the Oath doesn't make it impossible."

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"Those aren't very comforting qualifiers.

Hey, we've got a week to kill, think we could hover over them occasionally and listen in without being spotted? We should at least check that the orc fortress is where that one Other said it was, maybe we could stop by on the way."

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She brightens. "Good idea."

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Speaking of being audible...

 

They touch down.

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They spread the word that they've met a power who agreed to cooperate with them, and that the Ice should now be much safer to cross, and that they're leaving in a week. Do you want to meet the King?

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Sure. I've never actually met a King, should I be intimidated or worried about etiquette or anything?

There are Lords, but if the Elves' King were at all like Conquest then everything would look very different.

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In Tirion there'd be elaborate procedures. We're heading into exile, now, unless you're intending to be rude he won't take offense at you not knowing how to act. You should do your hair up nicely.

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Right, hair matters here. I'll make sure.

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And once logistics are in motion they show her to a very elaborate snow-covered tent. "Your grace," Irissë says, "Amber, the Man of Earth. Amber, my father, Finwë Nolofinwë Noldaran."

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She does what almost definitely isn't a properly executed bow if there is such a thing. "Your grace."

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We're very impressed with your magic's uses, so far, and the only ones known to us are flying and making Ice passable. Thank you for arriving here, and aiding us. What are your goals from here?

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I want to get home, and I want to convince my magic system to start fixing its ethics, and I want the Enemy gone. It sounds like my kind of magic is the one advantage anyone has that he doesn't, and Findekáno tells me he'll have the leverage to work on my pet problem if there isn't a war on, so this mostly works out to helping against Moringotto and trying to think of something that'll stick.

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Have you thought of anything so far?

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I could maybe destroy whatever body he's using. He shouldn't have defenses, so it's just a question of how indestructible it is and what it's made of. How much that would help, I have no idea.

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Quite a lot. How do you think you could achieve that?

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The best I have at the moment is effectively several tons of force that can be applied to liquid water in any size or shape. It worked on valaraukar by weaponizing their blood while they were using it, but it can also approximate a very sharp edge with a lot of force behind it and it can be redeployed quickly. If swords can eventually work....

I could hunt for larger-scale or different resources, but that's the most powerful equipment I have right now.

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That seems likely to be very dangerous to him, yes. What does hunting for resources entail, and how can we aid you in that?

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For me it'd mean finding somewhere with a lot of whatever elementals—nature spirits—I'm after. This would be a perfect place for anything with an ice theme, but I can't really picture killing a Power with weaponized ice. Catching them and binding them tightly enough that they take orders is entirely magical, I doubt most of you can aid with that but Irissë and Findekáno and any future practitioners may be able to.

The main problem you're in a position to help with, if it's solvable at all, is cover stories. Your army thinks I practice a strange religion, and the other army presumably thinks I'm a Maia. Once we're across, how much unofficial communication between them do you expect there to be?

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That depends very much on the conditions under which we meet. If Fëanor's being particularly reckless they might have defectors come join us. I don't think there'll be any in the other direction, for multiple reasons.

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I can imagine.

A single defector might be enough to catch the discrepancy, depending on what Fëanáro told to whom. Do you think he's likely to be enough more reckless than his people expected?

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I think he is being more reckless than his people expected. It is hard to evaluate how much. How many people saw you?

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A battlefield's worth? I didn't really count.

Maybe I get "found out" as a Maia pretending to be human, which I'd rather avoid, but it's not the worst that could happen.

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Maiar wouldn't practice a Mannish religion, though. Abandoning Eru is serving the Enemy, to them. Hmmm. We cannot turn away Feanorian defectors.

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Would it count as abandoning Eru if one used the word "religion" for eccentric things they do for inscrutable Maia reasons? I don't think I've said anything actually incompatible with serving Eru where everyone can hear.

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The eccentric things you do bear very very little resemblance to the eccentric things they do, and eating our food would be tremendously unreasonable behavior under the circumstances were you a Maia, but perhaps it could pass. It would be more of a problem were we to actually attempt a full reconciliation.

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Well, we have time to think of something. There won't be any defectors before we arrive, for certain.

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I do not expect so. How long do you expect the crossing to take, having scouted it and knowing how your magic can assist the process?

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My magic—more accurately Findekáno's and Irissë's, it had to be Eldar doing it—can make it cooperative. No one freezes, nothing collapses on or underneath anyone, but it's still hiking hundreds of miles. Maybe a few weeks.

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All right. I will consider ways to maintain your cover once we've reached them, but it does not seem our highest priority.

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It's not completely unrecoverable if your people figure things out. I'm more worried the Fëanorians might.

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That would indeed be a disaster. I assume there's no way they can accidentally acquire the attendant powers?

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No, definitely not. I just don't want to be vicariously liable for whatever they get up to. Theoretically Irissë, Findekáno, and any future practitioners have the same risk.

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But less of a track record of mass violence and dangerous oaths.

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I mean the Fëanorians could theoretically find out enough to snap through from watching them. Then they'd be on the hook for any future karma problems.

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Good to know. We should probably avoid any plans that'd require us to work closely with them, then.

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It is normally kept secret successfully, but if they're especially perceptive the risks are yours to weigh.

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Especially perceptive and an especial disaster to have learn about it. I've occasionally wondered if my nephew has a way to read private thoughts, he's that good at reading people. 

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If you mean that literally, I really hope he doesn't. He might have been one of the ones present when I talked to Fëanáro.

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I'm sure there's nothing supernatural about it, he's just very perceptive and has a lot of people talking to him.

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Then if there's no one to hear it from, he shouldn't be able to guess too much.

should maybe stay away from him even if people who aren't obviously mysterious don't have to.

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You and my children, he agrees.

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If they avoid him more than they otherwise would, that could give away more information than trying to act normally. 


A planet full of telepaths, fine, but of course there has to be a Sherlock Holmes too.

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They have sufficiently good reason to avoid him anyway; we trusted him and that worked out badly for us.

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If everyone involved would avoid him anyway, that's convenient for secrecy. Is he the only danger?

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Fëanáro wouldn't notice suspicious behavior if it ran at him naked, glowing, and shrieking. Unless it were shrieking in a language other than Quenya. 

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I will keep the multilingual shrieking in mind in case I ever need to convince him.

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That would also be strong evidence that you're a Man, though.

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It would, wouldn't it.

In that case this could all be a moot point because I wasn't thinking in Quenya when I was using osanwë.

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That is a little harder to notice, especially if there's a lot going on, though by now I expect he's looked back on the thought and realized it. Oh. Alright, we should assume they know you're a magic flying Man, at minimum. Is that enough to, ah, 'snap through'?

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Maybe not here. There are magic and powers that my kind of magic doesn't count. Maybe they'll think it's that and it'll be the same as if I passed it off as technology.

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That could be, yes. And no one knows anything about Men except that you're not supposed to be around yet.

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Oh, that's much better. I don't suppose I can count on people not knowing that Men can't fly?

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You can't count on my brother not noticing that anything biological and human shaped shouldn't be able to fly, but he might generate interesting alternative explanations.

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I suppose he doesn't even know about the flying, just about crossing the sea fast enough to carry messages. Plenty of false trails there.

At least until someone tells him how I arrived.

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I can make sure no one in our camp talks to them.

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Is that something you'd normally do? It sounds like giving up on what's already a diplomatic disaster, and I am still just one person.

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I have considered a number of approaches when we reach the other shore, everything from 'challenge my brother to a duel for the crown' - I think he'd accept - to 'move everyone across the continent and never contact them' - to 'pretend that was unfortunate how the Enemy lit the boats on fire, good thing we found a safe way across so quickly and no harm done'.

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The less they know the safer it is for me, but even in the worst case none of them are practitioners or involved with the practice. That limits the risk.

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And how exactly does this risk likeliest manifest?

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Bad luck not otherwise specified. It's not that everything that can go wrong will, unless the spirits really hate you, more that everything you do is against resistance and if it backfires will do so in a way that hurts you.
It's entirely possible to get around this by being careful, minimize what luck can do, but then the whole thing adds up. In extreme cases the universe just arranges your death. Less often by strings of coincidences than by sending something after you, but nothing's off the table.

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That inclines me to settle far away and ignore the other host.

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How many of them are there, and how likely are they to spread it around if they do figure it out? People who know nothing of any of this rarely score badly enough that they even notice; it would take a lot of people to add up to a problem.

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My brother should still after all their losses command nearly a hundred thousand people, and he'd probably try to come up with an exploit or a defense against you that'd involve telling lots of them, and he does really dangerous things. And if they were sufficiently desperate they might try to capture and interrogate someone who knew enough about it. That's very unlikely but a major disaster should it occur.

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Suddenly staying very far away no longer sounds like an overreaction.

Irissë or Findekáno and I can at least fly over and find somewhere accessible where they aren't.

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Good idea. Thank you.

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Any time.

We were also planning on verifying where the Enemy's fortress is and eavesdropping on the Fëanorians from the sky. You should probably get veto power on those; your war.

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I can't risk all three of you at once. You and Irissë can go.

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Makes sense. Hopefully we'll end up with nothing dramatically unexpected to report.

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That is my sincere desire indeed. Stars guide you, Amber.

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That is in hindsight an obvious expression for a world with bad astronomy and also oddly accurate.

And you, Your Grace.

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There aren't many people outside, and they don't stare. It's windy.

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Looks like most people have the right idea, being inside.

The ornate tent is the obvious one to be not outside in, maybe Irissë or Artanis is there.

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They both are. "Hello, Amber!"

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"Hi.

Anything new since...yesterday or this morning or however that works here?"

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"We're apparently leaving pretty soon. That's about it. Lots of preparation."

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"I guess there would be.

So is leaving, like, the dreaded thing that was going to happen eventually, or the goal everyone's been waiting for, or just a necessary step...?"

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"We're scared to lose people, but very very eager to be on the move, I think. We're eating supplies either way."

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"And then there's the other side. How much do we know about what we're up against, aside from the Enemy himself? I've heard of the orcs, some demons, and that's about it."

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"There are Maiar who serve Melkor. Don't know much about them, unfortunately."

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"And 'Maiar' could be a broad category, might as well be labeled 'Other.'

What are orcs, does anyone know?"

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"We think they're descended from Elves that have been bred with other things into - something more suited to the Enemy's tastes. And Elven bodies can take the shape our spirit feels is right, so if you raise Elf children in constant agony you'd get something like orcs. We think. No one knows for sure."

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"Oh. Oh.

That's horrible.

Please tell me there's some other guess that's nearly as likely."

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"Could be Men, though we don't know where he'd have gotten them from, we didn't even know there were Men in the world already until you dropped on us. The tortured bit is nearly certain - you can tell with osanwë."

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"What would the Enemy have been breeding them with? If there are other beings, maybe they could just be other beings."

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"...animals. Or automata of his own creation. There aren't other creatures like us."

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Almost definitely Elves, then. Not technically worse, given that they're already people, but.

"But if they're Elves, wouldn't one Elf and one orc be about evenly matched? And here you are vastly outnumbered and it's maybe hopeless but not for that reason."

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"We lived in Valinor. The Light of the Trees makes us stronger. We're probably two to three times stronger and faster than Elves in the Outer Lands? And they're stunted by the conditions he raises them in, and we have much better armor and weaponry."

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"Elves are immortal. Is there any chance that people here will be fighting their descendants?"

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"Yes. And we know that. You kill orcs as quickly as possible, it's the kindest thing, the Halls of Mandos are safe and they're not in pain and maybe someday they can be healed."

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"The Halls of Mandos run by the Valar who are demonstrably bad at determining who needs to be punished for what but aren't literally the Enemy. Those Halls of Mandos."

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"They all swear to serve Morgoth. All of them."

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"They tell you that, or is that based on why wouldn't he make them swear?"

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"I haven't met one, and that's what people say who did. We don't exactly have casual conversations with them."

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"It sounds like something they might be better off not confirming for their enemies. Not that I mind knowing."

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"Mandos can't fix any of them either, which is additional evidence in that direction."

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"Are oaths the Valar's only known limit? Only known limit that he could feasibly have taken advantage of."

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"They could also just all be committedly evil and therefore unsuited to rehabilitation. Doesn't seem likely."

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"Mandos fixes people means making them not evil?"

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"Yep. Only if you agree to it, of course, but he won't bring you back if you're evil. Fëanor once he dies is going to be dead forever, there's a prophecy to that effect."

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"Never having met the guy, that sounds a lot like a powerful being forcing people to serve their ends on pain of death. Or at least deadness.

Which you were just telling me is what the Enemy does, except in his case I'm guessing about the threats."

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"I mean, 'categorically reincarnate mass murderers' isn't the greatest of approaches either. But yeah. We don't like the Valar. Therefore we left."

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"It sounded like you agreed that what Mandos does is fix people.

Leaving is progressively sounding like a better and better idea, agreed, even if it doesn't do anything about the actual problem on this one."

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"Mandos does fix people. Is that an appropriate thing to strive for given how much power over them he has? I don't know. But they do come back fixed."

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"You mean he changes their morals in addition to fixing them, or as part of it? Because the second one is less a question of whether it's appropriate and more a question of how much of an unspeakable atrocity it is."

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"Maybe among Men. No one knows exactly how Mandos works, but 'unspeakable atrocity' is a rather strong wording for 'asks murderers if they'd like to stop being inclined to commit murder'."

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"If it's limited to murder that wouldn't be much of one at all. He's got nothing on the Enemy regardless, but that's a stupidly low bar.


Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing too much. I just have a hard time picturing someone who has the power to make everyone agree about what is good and evil, uses it, and stops at murder. They'd almost inevitably go further.
Do the Valar have a stated reason for only doing this while people are dead?"

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"Being reembodied is a privilege, not a right. You can't go around making people not evil but you can condition privileges on it."

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"A privilege. And being continuingly embodied is a right, presumably."

Irissë, remember how I said I wouldn't know how to make life? I don't know how to reembody existing people either but I bet it's easier.

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"You've got it."

 

That'd be interesting. - if you could reembody Finwë you'd solve the succession dispute.

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"Maybe I wasn't anthropomorphizing too much. Being the only one with a scarce resource and getting whatever concessions you want is exactly what a lot of humans would do."

I was thinking more of reembodying people before Mandos gets them. I guess as long as we're talking about things we have no idea how to do, reembodiment at a distance probably isn't strictly impossible.

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"You could certainly look at it that way."

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"That is the most charitable way I can think of to look at it, unless he actually does restrain himself to rehabilitating murderers and other unambiguous things."

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"We don't have enough information. Everyone who died in Valinor and desired to return to life was swiftly so returned; orcs haven't been; part of the Doom is that none of us will be, which I agree is unfair but I don't think is Mandos' general approach."

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"He doesn't publicize what he considers evil? That's...among Men it'd be obviously unjust, but maybe here it's incompetence. You don't get people to do what you want by not letting them know what that means."

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"I think there's a worry about gaming the system, treating it like a checklist rather than a very personal process."

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"That makes sense, depending on their priorities. Are they trying to make everyone into the kind of people who willingly conform or are they trying to reduce the amount of evil that happens?"

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"You'd have made yourself popular. I don't know. They don't think like us. They don't - it's not conformity they're going for, exactly, but I don't think they're trying to reduce the amount of evil that happens either."

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"Yeah, I'd be watching my words a lot more carefully around them."

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She sighs. "People like to blame it all on the Valar. They didn't make Fëanor forge a sword or pick it up, or burn the ships, but they definitely could have and should have stopped him. Instead it's up to us."

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"More than enough things that need stopping."

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"Yep."

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The next few days are short-notice preparation for leaving. Amber helps where she can, meaning less than almost all the Elves, until whenever is the next convenient time to disappear with Irissë. Scouting isn't time-sensitive on a scale of days.


And then, they're off.

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Can we fly over my demesne? I like my demesne.

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We'd have to be trying to avoid it.

The demesnes are visibly different from the surroundings, or would be by now if it weren't so dark. As it is the fact that they're less cold is the only visible change.

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That was brilliant. Thank you.

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I wasn't the one who did it.

It's a longer trip across than either of the other ones. One of the destinations is farther out, and another is currently hypothetical.

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The Feanorian camp is nestled into the foothills of a mountain range, on the shore of a lake. There's a wall and some buildings and Elves are swarming everywhere, expanding both.

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They're making progress fast. That's good, right?

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They're really really capable. It's good when it's pointed at the right problems.

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I was hoping it meant building defenses from scratch was easier than it sounds. But that explanation works too.

How close do you need to be to know if there's anything interesting to eavesdrop on?

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When you have a hundred thousand engineers organized by telepathy under Maitimo with Macalaurë to sing them along you can get a lot done fast. We won't be as fast, but we can do it too. The problem is that really important things will be discussed over osanwë and moderately important things in their palace and both of those should be hard to get close to.

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You can't just catch the moderately important things with super-senses?

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Can, but not from more than half a mile up. We build to muffle sound, for the obvious reasons.

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Half a mile...how low can we get before we're visible? If you get an outside view we can make the apparent temperature match the air, and it is still dark out.

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It's going to be dark out forever, you'd better get used to it. And I don't think we'll be visible at that height. Though worst-case is they see us and shoot us down and then we have some very awkward explaining to do.

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We'll know if they see us, I can watch for that while you're listening. Hopefully even they don't jump straight to arrows as soon as something looks odd.

Hovering over the biggest building and lowering, then?

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Yep. And she watches nervously while they do that. The Feanorians are not looking straight up.

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No connections suddenly solidify and point downward. It's a convenient method of detection, because from up here the Feanorians look like ants. Ants on a black background from across a four-lane highway.

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Well, they're not looking, they're listening. There is a discussion going on about how many people to take somewhere.

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They do also sound like ants.

Amber telepathically asks for updates as they happen.

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Enemy offered them a parley, she says after a minute. Terms are that they can have a Silmaril and a year to evacuate the continent of civilians, and then they don't bother him, it's the Valar he wants to war with. They are considering trying for the evacuation time and Silmaril, there are apparently a lot of civilians.

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 Does he not know about the oath?

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Not sure. I assume both sides will be trying to sell each other out, but a year to get civilians clear might be worth it anyway, and it doesn't cost the Enemy much...

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Other than the Silmaril. Once he doesn't turn that over, everyone knows the deal's off and can't pretend it isn't.

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It's possible the Enemy'd give them a Silmaril. Not likely, but if he found a way to trap them or make them dangerous, or if Ungoliant's still around and he thinks it'd get her attention...

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Do you know if the oath is going to make them negotiate even if there's a vanishingly small chance of it being a good idea?

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No. Oath is to kill whoever has the Silmaril. If whoever had the Silmaril did not, you know, deserve killing, they'd be highly motivated to negotiate so that they could cease being sworn to kill them, and if they started pushing too hard on that interpretation of the Oath then they could be manipulated by it, but as it stands, the Oath is 'murder the possessor of the Silmarils', not 'get them back'.

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So they're not magically compelled into any mistakes...and they're at least as informed as we are... maybe we'll all get lucky and they decide not to go for it.

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They are in fact fucking idiots, do keep that in mind.

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Noted.

The obvious way for him to turn on them is to just capture or kill the ambassador, but he's got to be aiming higher. Maybe he's got some other plot.

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I assume both parties swore to terms of parley. Even my cousins are probably not that stupid.

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How do you swear to terms without getting close enough that you need to already have them? Intermediaries swearing that their person swore?

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Probably? This hasn't really been necessary - and now that I think of it that could be fakable - 

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I guess they wouldn't have much reason to repeat how the message was delivered. But if it was something fakeable they have to know it was. How sure are you about them probably not being stupid enough to go in without a trustworthy oath?

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Betting anything on my cousins not being stupid is always a mistake.

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Well.

Maybe once we know when this parley is supposed to be it'll be late enough that our side arrives. Then there's at least more we can do.

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Nope. Three days.

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I don't suppose they've mentioned their really ironclad reason to trust the guy named the Enemy?

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They haven't mentioned any reasons, let alone ironclad ones.

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Maybe they have some. If not– convincing them not to go is probably the next best thing to impossible. Wish we knew what the trap was, we could maybe bail them out directly if it's a few surprise valaraukar but not much more than that.

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You could try convincing them it's a trap, but not without drawing a lot more of their attention to the fact you exist and are interesting. I could try convincing them it's a trap but that'd be - very unpredictable results. Bailing them out might be the way to go.

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And you being seen here is even more interesting than me.

Maybe the King will have some other idea, or even a really good reason to leave them to it.

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Reason to leave them to it would be if Feanor's leading it.

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Which they'll hopefully decide on any minute now.


I get that him being dead or gone would make things simpler, but if it turns out to be the kind of trap we can help with I don't like the idea of assassinating him by omission.

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I have mixed feelings about it, to put it mildly. 

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Yeah.

Or maybe the Enemy doesn't know about the oath and meant everything at face value, or at least isn't planning on double-crossing them until later. We can always hope.

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Ha.

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Or hey, maybe they'll out-think him and come out ahead on their own.

 

 

And waiting for the Feanorians to do their end of the thinking.

 

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The Feanorians do not conclude that this is a terrible fucking idea.

 

They are also not sending Fëanor. 

Maitimo we do need to rescue, she says, no ambiguity there. I do not want my cousins stupider.

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Do they at least expect this to be a probable trap?

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Yup. Just think they're smarter than the Enemy. I think. I kind of want to try talking to Maitimo but it is so not worth the risk.

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We're already crossing the Ice faster than they expect, and I don't think they know yet that we haven't already started. Maybe you could happen to have gone on ahead for some reason? Make contact officially.

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The Eldar are in fact too sexist to send me for that purpose. But we could try it.

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It would also mess with the plan about avoiding them, regardless of who gets sent.

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I am trying to think how Findekáno will react if I tell him I let Maitimo die.

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It's Maitimo instead of Fëanáro; there's much less of a dilemma about leaving him to possibly die. We're coming back.

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I mean, I'm not at all sure Findekáno'd react by being sad. But yeah.

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This definitely deserves cutting short the rest of the trip. Maybe Findekáno'll end up being there in three days.

If the Enemy's betrayal is scheduled early Maitimo's going to need all the help he can get.

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Let's head home.

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Have they mentioned where the parley is yet? If not we should hold out for that.

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They have but not in terms of directions from here, I think they're already working from maps of the area. We're going to have to follow them.

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And that'll be doable even if they leave early and we miss it. All right.

Flight back to the Ice.

 

 

"You said the Eldar wouldn't send you as an ambassador because they're sexist. Is that the extent of it, or should I be expecting other possible plans to have extra obstacles for no reason?"

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"Doesn't come up much except in formal political office."

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"And the person who makes contact with the Feanorians would have to be official, since we already know they're there, but at least there shouldn't be the same objection to us pulling off a rescue if we go with that plan instead."

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"Yeah. No one will object to us intervening in a fight, it's just that if I claimed my father sent me their reaction would be 'all three of your brothers are dead? and even then, really?"

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"It's a stupid constraint to have. But probably most human societies have had something analogous, so I can't blame this one on Eldar."

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"I know it's stupid. Fëanor knows it's stupid, he just decided to work around it by having seven boys."

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"Decided?"

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"He could have, like, fought the nonsense instead of buying into it."

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"No, I mean, decided to have sons? Humans can't normally do that."

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"Oh. We can. My parents had two boys, a girl, another boy. My aunt and uncle had three boys and then a girl. Get some heirs, then indulge the King with a granddaughter."

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"Sexism plus ability to pick sexes sounds vulnerable to, well, what Feanor did. Do large gender imbalances come with problems? They do among Men, but some of the reasons might interact weirdly with immortality."

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"People can't get married, I guess, but it's only really the royal family that has an incentive to skew for sons and actually I think once it became obvious Fëanor was going to do it this way everyone else skewed towards daughters. What sort of problems?"

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"If royalty has sons and commoners have daughters that's also a problem, it's nice and self-perpetuating with important people usually being men. We'll have to at least make sure practitioners reject it, or it might catch on.

Not being able to get married is more of an issue for mortals. In places with a lot more men than women, there are a lot of men who think they'll never find partners ever, and large numbers of unhappy people is apparently one way to get crime. I don't remember the details.
Most humans are only interested in the opposite gender, and that's in about the same proportion across both. So not all the unfortunate majority members can just look for other unfortunate majority members."

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"All Elves are only interested in the opposite gender. But people know it might take Ages to find the right person."

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"All Elves? That's not weirder than the superpowers, but still surprising."

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" I mean, some people do better at it than others. My cousin Tyelcormo was really bad at it but he's a Feanorian."

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"You all make yourselves only be attracted to the opposite gender? If it were Men saying it that would inevitably mean much worse things. Is there anyone who can't?

And why would being Feanorian make people worse at trying, that too."

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"I mean, being Feanorian involves giving less of a fuck about being a good person."

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"Oh, it's about being a good person.

You know, I'm used to right and wrong being defined and enforced by the universe itself. And I rejected it, because its definition hurts people.

I am very favorably inclined to the Feanorians on this one."

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"Tyelcormo was my best friend. The leaving us to die is doing a little damage to my opinion of him, but that never did."

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"It's just...if people are going to a lot of effort to change themselves and declaring people who don't or can't to be bad people, it should be for something actually bad. 

Unless using the approved vocabulary gets enforced too; then it all makes sense."

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"Nothing gets - enforced. Everything affects, or affected, your opportunities and your connections and your reputation, certainly including vocabulary. But there wasn't any enforcement."

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"Technically the spirits are affecting things indirectly too, almost always, and I'd still use the word.

But if it's just opportunities and reputation and being a good person, that's still relevantly similar. We shouldn't just pick a segment of the population and say change if you care about those things, for the same reason we wouldn't pick a segment and say change or else."

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"I don't know how much we'll stick by the old laws in the Outer Lands, really."

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"Hopefully we'll use all and only the ones with good reasons behind them. Traditions can be self-reinforcing, and that goes double if we slip up on who gets magic."

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"I hadn't thought about how the universe could end up enforcing stupid gender roles if we were thoughtless. It won't enforce marriage stuff, at least, we're not planning on marrying."

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"Why the difference? It sounded like that was as strong a tradition as any."

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"Elves don't marry in wartime, so none of your practitioners will be marrying until the war is over. Then I suppose we'll have to worry about it, but that's a long time off."

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"I mean, why would it not enforce that. It doesn't care much about who marries whom on earth either, but that's because it's a lot more gender-neutral than it could be. No marriage-specific reason as far as I know."

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"I expect it would enforce that if brought to its attention, but it won't be brought to the magic's attention if no practitioners marry."

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"No actions to follow, right. Words'll still count.

Any other prejudices we need to worry about selecting for?"

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"Hmm. Dunno what you consider a prejudice - we also don't marry first cousins or siblings or take lovers anywhere in the line of direct descent..."

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"One of the big ones is, if people are unfailingly loyal to their House that would be a bad thing. It went too far that way on Earth long ago."

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"...how does that fail?"

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"Individuals end up expendable. Sometimes people get literally bargained away. They don't have to go along with it, but once a tradition has been around enough to stick the universe takes sides.

Basically anything everyone agrees on, it can end up being almost universal."

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"Ugh. Okay, that's another reason to keep this away from the cousins, 'inspiring undying and rather creepy loyalty' is Maitimo's whole thing."

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"Not many families are set up to be as despotic as possible; it's not maximally creepy. There's just essentially no line where the spirits stop taking the head's side.

If you wind up in charge of a bloodline after the war you could always just say your children are their own individuals. If your cousins wouldn't do that then yeah. No magic for them."

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"I didn't know them as well as I thought and even as I thought I knew them, I'm not sure they see most people as individuals. There are lots of no-magic-for-them reasons, but this is definitely one of them.

 

You've seen how twitchy Findekáno gets about Maitimo. They were 'friends' for a very long time, which means Findekáno was a project of my cousin's, and he used the hell out of it right until it was more convenient to leave him to die."

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"That's the kind of thing that magic would already punish. It does disapprove of some of the right things."

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"Is the magic's opinion on the situation going to affect Findekáno's ring?"

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"If so, probably positively.
Findekáno has the karmic high ground over Maitimo; using that ring might count as forgiving a debt or nothing at all or even retaliation. Depends on what it means to Findekáno and most observers."

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"That is a thing I do not think he's decided."

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"He'll have to before doing the implement ritual. "I have complicated feelings about Maitimo" is probably not the best message to send."

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"Yeah. "a debt forgiven' might be the way to go."

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"If he decides he wants to forgive him for that."

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"You are underestimating Maitimo if it's surprising to you that my brother wants to forgive him."

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"I hadn't realized it was so certain."

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"I wish he wouldn't. But I bet he will."

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"Is seeing him negotiate with the Enemy likely to change that? That part might happen even if the betrayal's right away."

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"That wouldn't be nearly as unforgivable as the ships and the games that preceded them."

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"Back home you'd think twice about anyone if you saw them negotiating with the worst my world has to offer. For good reason. Not that the Enemy is analogous to a demon, exactly, but I guess I absorbed an assumption that this might apply."

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"I mean, it would bother people a lot if my cousins had any regard left to lose. But - I don't think it's regard that will make my brother eventually forgive Maitimo."

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"Should we be trying to keep them apart? I know your perception probably attributes more to Maitimo being good at manipulation than most, but at this point I'm wondering if whatever Maitimo's doing is closer to mind control."

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"It is, if not mechanically that, at least most usefully modeled that way, yes. If we don't keep that apart I expect to hear they've made amends. I am not sure whether I should be stopping that, either for Finno's own good or for the strategic good."

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"And this is the Feanorian who wouldn't make things easier if we fail to save him?"

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"Well, if you want them to be a bunch of unstrategic ruthless impulsive undyingly loyal lunatics, sure, we can let Maitimo die. I did not mean to leave you under the impression he's the good one, but he's the 'wants the Enemy dead and is good at his job' one."

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"Is there a good one?"

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"Nope.

 

Before the Oath, maybe. But now they're all damned together."

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"Damned and good aren't mutually exclusive. Who would have been the maybe?"

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"Telvo seems sweet whenever we've chatted. And principled, sort of. I might have tentatively trusted him."

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"The Oath doesn't seem like it'd get in the way of most things that aren't on the level of Silmarils. Not if he'd otherwise be trustworthy."

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"Maybe not. We could try to say hi next time, I at minimum am sure he wouldn't run to his father."

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"So it might be doable without politics? It's at least good that they aren't all interchangeable."


Meanwhile: running to Irissë's father with updates on the Feanorians.

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"Oh, not interchangeable at all. Maitimo's very likable and very competent and extraordinarily ruthless at need, Macalaurë is very deeply solipsistic but can perform 'diplomat' or 'cousin' or 'friendly stranger' as well as he can perform anything else, Tyelcormo is - deeply empathetic, for an objectively terrible person, and charming in a brash sort of way, Carnistir's aggressively misanthropic, Curufinwë is as loyal a clone of his father as he possibly can be, Pityo and Telvo stabilize each other and very much avoid attention and are frightening if cornered and have a tendency to accomplish things without appearing to have had any part in them. And Telvo is in addition to that a good person, which is a rare commodity among my cousins."

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"Interchangeable with respect to their goals, I meant. The oath and the murder and the ship-burning aren't things I'd expect of good people, so if there is one that's good news."

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"Well, he's still bound by the oath. But if we were to say hi he wouldn't run to his father, so that's something."

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"It is something. When you say he's a good person, do you mean you'd consider giving him magic if the Silmarils were returned and the Oath wasn't a factor, or just that he's safer to negotiate with?"

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"...still kind of a risk, because his family can pressure him. His twin can pressure him. But I'd at least consider it."

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"Well, if they've got the Silmarils the war's probably already over anyway. However that affects the decision."

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"When the war's over I am not optimistic about keeping magic secret from them. All of their people'd tell them, and some of their people will eventually learn."

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"And they won't before then only because we're aiming to be isolationist?"

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"Yep. And because while the oath's active their people might not tell them, there's at least a chance they could be convinced to stay quiet about it."

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"And then they'll be a setback to reforming magic. If them finding out is unavoidable, though, it's not like we'd want to delay winning the war. Doesn't change our priorities."

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"We can probably stay isolationist for a while after the war, I just have mixed feelings about doing so."

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"Them finding out probably isn't an unsolvable problem. I've got an idea or two for making it less of a disaster. But it's all risky and keeping it away from them as long as possible sounds the much better bet."

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They're nearly back. What ideas?

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If we tell them the rules magic enforces and the ones it should, and don't differentiate between them, they end up thinking they have to scrupulously follow things like people mattering more than family units and following an assigned role not being the most virtuous thing. Then all the practitioners here are still setting the traditions unanimously even without us having a monopoly.

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That's something. 

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And we might have to do it three days from now if the parley goes the wrong variety of wrong.

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You think they'll discover us that fast?

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Hope not. But if there's a rescue to be done, managing anything without being spotted sounds hard.

...do you have telescopes?

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No. What are those?

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A set of lenses, you look through it and it makes distant objects look closer. Could be useful for affecting things from far enough away that they definitely can't spot you.

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We have lenses, though we mostly use them to look at small things. I'll see if one can be disassembled to do that instead.

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I do have a telescope, not a very powerful one but it might not need to be. Maybe we could improvise with shaped blobs of water.

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Let's give it a go next time we're over there. And they descend and find Nolofinwë's tent.

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Is there a procedure for charging in with urgent news that we can't publicly admit we know?

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Telepathy is super convenient, he got to dismiss everyone else on whatever excuse he liked and we're now clear.

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Oh. Right.

She goes inside the tent.

Bad news, Your Grace. The Feanorians are sending Maitimo to parley with the Enemy. We've got three days to figure out what to do about it.

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What? Why? How are they even communicating terms - what did the Enemy offer them -

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A year to evacuate the civilians and a Silmaril. And apparently a peace treaty so he can prepare for fighting the Valar, but they can't take that and if he's offering evacuation he probably doesn't expect them to.

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This is very unwise. 

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Agreed. They're hoping the sudden but inevitable betrayal happens after they've gotten civilians out, and didn't mention what they're doing if the trap is just an ambush with overwhelming force.

Irissë and I plan to try to rescue them if it is. I don't know how much difference we could make.

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I don't think I know enough about your capabilities to evaluate that. Maitimo you also could probably talk down but there goes secrecy. 

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Would talking him individually down help? Sending him was a group decision, and we don't have more information than they do about the Enemy.

We can take valaraukar, but only one at a time and so far only with help. And there's no way of knowing what the other side would be sending.

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Will you be able to see what the other side's sending? You'll have a better angle than my nephew...

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The limiting factor there is safety. If we're close enough for me to see much we'd be hard to spot but maybe not impossible. Irissë or Findekáno might stand just as good a chance without me, to be honest.

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They can do the valarauka-pinning trick?

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No, but it wouldn't take three days to get my equipment working for them. It'd just trade off against things like collecting more firepower and eavesdropping more.

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Collecting more firepower might be a better use of that time, if you think it could be done.

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It probably is.

The question is whether to try talking them down or backing them up. They do already know I can get across somehow, if not how fast; if I turn up alone it'll tell them I listened in and not much more than that.

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Do you expect you'd be able to talk down Maitimo?

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I don't know him. Maybe. If I could say I'd listened at Angband and here's exactly how much of a trap he's walking into then I should hope so, but as it is I can't tell him much that he doesn't already know.

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The fact you are going to stick around interfering and have opinions about the situation is itself something he doesn't know. If he decides he'd rather have you impressed with his reasonableness than have the parley - and he might - that could do it.

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I hadn't thought of that. The stakes right now are a continent's worth of people; I guess they don't know my approval isn't that important. It does sound tenuous though; do you think it'd make the difference to Maitimo?

And would convincing Maitimo mean he convinces the rest of the Feanorians, but on second thought, duh.

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It sounds like my brother has yet to figured out how to stop valaraukar, and you have, so it's reasonable for them to think that your disposition towards them is important. I don't think Maitimo's making a mistake in calculating the stakes, I think he's just overconfident. I have no idea if it'd be enough to persuade him.

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If I do go talk to him, would he figure out that I'd take his side if he goes anyway? It might make him more likely to go through with it.

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Yes, he would. I don't think it's your aid in this specific fight that it'd make sense to prioritize.

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Do you think he's likely enough to listen that it's worth asking?

It would mean we can't trust future eavesdropping; the other plan could plausibly look like walking in on the ambush by coincidence.

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...in my estimation it is probably worth it. We weren't going to gain much from eavesdropping anyway, not beyond what we can get from noticing troop movements the minute they start, and they don't seem committed to bothering us, and I would not see Maitimo dead or worse if there's any way to improve our chances.

 

You'll like him.

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Irissë warned me.

I could do it now. Have as much time as possible to prepare if they don't call it off.

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Could they if they so desired stop you from taking off or from getting back here?

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They could make it hard to get away without them seeing me fly. I don't think they could actually stop me. If they try to watch I'll tell them they're being hostile and see if they stop.

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And if they don't?

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Maitimo would if you're right about him wanting to look reasonable.

If they don't, and the unnoticeability trick can't get me out, I might have to let them see me in the air. Fighting my way out would be strictly worse.

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I think so. Well, hopefully they will want to look reasonable. As reasonable as they can after everything they've already done.

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Wanting to look not actively hostile would be enough.

Oh, one other thing. The enchanted weapons people have mentioned, do those have to be swords? Something sharp and hollow that I can fill with water and push could stab monsters instead of pinning them.

Permalink Mark Unread

They definitely don't have to be swords, but they have to be created and we don't have a forge.

 

...my brother could have things ready for you in a few days, but that requires him knowing probably too much about your capabilities.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, if it's between waiting for a forge and describing that much detail I can do without. Maybe a third option will turn up.

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe. 

 

In principle it might be possible to enchant ice, it'd just be absurd to try ordinarily. I can set some people on it.

Permalink Mark Unread

And I can keep it frozen if enchantment doesn't do that normally.

If that works, would it take more than three days?

Permalink Mark Unread

No. Complicated things would take much longer but a good metalworker could simply enchant an ice arrowhead in two days, and I have a hundred good metalworkers.

Permalink Mark Unread

Great, if that works there's no need to tip off the Feanorians that water matters. This is the shape I'm thinking of–bullet-shaped, hollow, not quite completely open on the back end–I probably can't make ice structurally strong enough for it to be very sharp but all it really needs is to be not conceptually incapable of breaking skin.

Permalink Mark Unread

Sure. We can carve a hundred in that shape, have you preserve them so they don't melt while being enchanted, and have them in a few days if no one sleeps.

Permalink Mark Unread

That sounds like a lot of strain on people who could be doing other things. Like sleeping. Maybe if I don't get a favorable answer from Maitimo?

Permalink Mark Unread

Might be too late at that point. Enchanting is very involved. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Okay. If you need the ice preserved ahead of time I'll have to find some ice spirits first, but those aren't in short supply around here.

Permalink Mark Unread

Please find those right away, yes; if it starts melting during the enchantment process I think it might fail.

Permalink Mark Unread

All right, I'll be right back. Thank you for your help, Your Grace.

 

She exits the tent and starts heading toward the ice.
This could go faster with implausible vision. Findekáno, want to join me collecting more elementals? It's for the– well, if Irissë didn't fill you in yet I should just give you the full story.

Permalink Mark Unread

She said that I needed to make up my mind about what the ring should mean, and that they're negotiating with the Enemy. That it?

Permalink Mark Unread

Mostly. The ice spirits are for keeping chunks frozen while they're enchanted; it should make fighting easier.

The other thing is that the person walking into the probable trap to negotiate is Maitimo.

Permalink Mark Unread

If he thinks he can win over Melkor he is probably for once overestimating himself. 

 

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't know what anyone over there is thinking.

I'm going to try to convince him to call it off. Your father thinks the fact that I exist and have opinions might tip the balance, but you know Maitimo better. How would you convince him?

Permalink Mark Unread

I do not think I have ever in the two hundred Years of our acquaintance convinced Maitimo of anything except that he ought to manage me more closely.

Permalink Mark Unread

Seriously? Ever?

Permalink Mark Unread

The Feanorians are all of them very stubborn. And he generally had good judgment, it wouldn't have come up much.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, that's not much of a good sign.

Guess the enchanted ice arrows might not be a pointless backup then.

Permalink Mark Unread

He might well be persuaded that seeming reasonable to you is a higher priority than the parley. He also might have good reasons for the parley and convince you. Very convincing, Maitimo.

 

What exactly are we looking for out here?

Permalink Mark Unread

Ice spirits, preferably ones specifically about frozenness rather than cold or slipperiness or whatever.

A lot of them if it's one per arrowhead. What happens if you break something enchanted? Do you end up with two enchanted pieces, or one, or none? Or can different pieces of the same object be enchanted separately?

Permalink Mark Unread

None. That's why enchanting ice is a terrible idea and no one's ever done it. If you enchant metal sometimes if you did it well you can reforge the metal without breaking the enchantments. Can't do different pieces, has to be continuous.

Permalink Mark Unread

So does the permanent freeze thing.

I was hoping we could set up something with a continuous row of projectiles, so one elemental could keep them all solid, and then if each one is enchanted separately we could break them off one at a time. But if that'd ruin the enchantment we might be stuck just collecting dozens of spirits.

Permalink Mark Unread

I am not at the frontiers of the field - they're all on the other side - but I don't think that'd work, no.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh well. We can collect dozens of spirits, it'll just take time. You free?

Permalink Mark Unread

I am.

Permalink Mark Unread

They'll end up with ice vastly overrepresented in the arsenal. At least a couple elementals will inevitably be suited to setting the shape of the projectiles, and after that keeping ice frozen is a simple enough trick to get boring quickly.

 

If me showing up doesn't convince Maitimo to back down, are you going to want to be at the rescue?

Permalink Mark Unread

Will it be useful?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes. If we were spending prep time differently could have ended up redundant.
I mean, for practical purposes you and Irissë haven't really specialized yet. Do you want to personally be the one effecting the rescue? If it were someone important to me I wouldn't want to leave it to other people.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

 

Maitimo's not important to me.

Permalink Mark Unread

Blink.

You mean he isn't when you're not mind-controlled, she doesn't ask. The ring is a bit of a dead giveaway but saying so would imply he lied.

Oh. Well, the same goes for a personal enemy who needed rescuing, to be honest. Though that comes up less. You seemed more likely to have an opinion on who should go than Irissë.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'd like to go. I don't want to talk with him, so if that's part of the plan it should be you and Irisse for that part.

Permalink Mark Unread

It isn't. I'll be talking to him ahead of time, but alone because they don't know yet that anyone else can cross back and forth.

Permalink Mark Unread

In that case I'll go for the fight if there is one, no problem.

Permalink Mark Unread

Good to know.
Or maybe I shouldn't have asked yet; for all I know he can deduce that you'll be there just from talking with me.

Permalink Mark Unread

He knows me well enough you can assume that given any information about the constraints I'm under he'll know what I'll do. I don't think he'll deduce your general capabilities just from talking to you. Convince you to tell him, more likely.

Permalink Mark Unread

I would be very surprised if he pulled that off. Maybe if the cat was already out of the bag on magic.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'd be surprised too, but not very surprised.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, now I want to see what he'll say. I would be a lot more effective with their help, and knowing would help them propose plans against the Enemy involving me, but I already know both of those and don't expect to tell. I guess we'll find out.

Permalink Mark Unread

Don't trust him.

Permalink Mark Unread

There is vanishingly little risk of that.

Permalink Mark Unread

He returns to ice spirit capture in meditative silence.

Permalink Mark Unread

It takes less effort than time. Eventually they'll accumulate somewhere less than a hundred very frozen ice bullets.

Permalink Mark Unread

And they get to work on that while she heads off across the ocean again.

Permalink Mark Unread

Flying is, whatever else is happening at both endpoints, still fun. 


This time she knows roughly where the Feanorians are in advance. All the elementals can stay with her while she walks up making no effort to hide, but the giant bulk of water would be a bit obtrusive.

"Hello!" she calls out when someone inevitably spots her from an impossible distance.

Permalink Mark Unread

Declare yourself.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm Amber. I'm here to talk to Maitimo about– something that probably isn't classified but I don't know who I'm talking to.

If she changes direction to walk more directly toward the sentry, well, they can overestimate her vision.

Permalink Mark Unread

Your oath that you don't serve the Enemy?

Permalink Mark Unread

I swear on my name and my blood that I have never willingly or knowingly served the Enemy.

It comes through with the same weight and the same absence of thunderclap that some of the statements during the demesne rituals did, despite not being spoken aloud.

Permalink Mark Unread

...Thank you. I can take you to him.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you. 

She keeps walking in the general direction of the Feanorians and particular direction of the Feanorian.

Permalink Mark Unread

And she reaches the wall of their settlement. He's standing there. Red hair. 

"Oaths," he says, "have to be spoken aloud. What are you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. You probably can't trust that as an oath then, can you. Still true."

I'm human.

Which they probably already knew, and yet here's Maitimo acting as if they didn't.

Permalink Mark Unread

"So you can say it again," he says, "and spare me a headache. Someone might think you were trying to trick us or something."

Permalink Mark Unread

She repeats it, audibly this time.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Come on in. I'm Maitimo, but you know that, you asked for me. You are -?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm Amber. I met your father recently, carrying a message, but this time it's mostly from me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was present for that. Come inside, we have at least some enchantments on the walls and unless you're the type to be lulled into a false sense of security they are better than nothing." He gestures at a building.

Permalink Mark Unread

She comes in with him, looking at the walls on the way in.

Permalink Mark Unread

The building is lit, with glowing rocks, and has an astoundingly pretty tapestry on the facing wall. Maitimo pulls out two chairs. "Can I get you anything? Food, drink, rings of various minor forms of protection -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, but thank you for offering." Asking about what kinds of protection exist is tempting but too close to exchanging information on capabilities. She takes one of the chairs and is suitably distracted by the artwork.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Pretty, isn't it? My grandmother made them; she died when my father was very young. The Enemy torched most of them when he sacked our home. I think he was aiming deliberately; for an assassination of a King it seemed rather carefully designed for the attention of the King's son."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's been playing you all along? Your faction, I mean, not you personally. Or did he target other people similar ways?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"He was playing everybody. He told my father that his half-brother was planning to usurp the throne and have us exiled, he told my uncle that my father was unstable and paranoid. At the time neither thing was true, but a decade later both were."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's why I'm here, kind of. I think he still is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Obviously. At this point it's harder to do anything about it, though. I've mostly given up on a unified Noldorin command and am hoping for an arrangement by which both sides at least trust that giving the other strategically relevant information will not make them worse off. Do you want to help with that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can't commit to that in full generality, but would definitely want to help expand how much information both sides feel they can share safely.

Especially if you know a reason why" parleying with Melkor—is that secret, by the way? "isn't a suicidally bad idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think you are not evaluating 'large chance of suicide mission', 'small chance we can navigate this in a way that buys us a year and a hundred thousand lives' correctly. And no, it's not a secret, we try to give everyone full information before we send them off to take absurd risks."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He could just send overwhelming force to kill everyone without giving the time or the lives. If he doesn't, it's because there's something more complicated that he considers better. If all you know is that whatever betrayal he has planned is at least that bad, what positive outcome are you hoping for?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"He sends overwhelming force and we get a better sense of his capabilities which we desperately need to stand a chance in this war. He sends overwhelming force but does the pretense of a negotiation first and I get the ten minutes I'd require to understand whoever he has working for him and on what incentives and towards what ends that aren't his own. He sends overwhelming force and we turn out to be hard to overwhelm. He plays along a little longer because some purpose of his is served by a year's treaty, and we get everyone off the continent who we can. None of them likely, many of them worth dying for."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If he knows who he's up against well enough to destroy the tapestries, he should know better than to give you ten minutes. Surviving an ambush and finding out what he's got would be useful but you can start a fight on your own terms any time.

The last one is the case where all we'd know about his unknown purpose is that it's more effective than giving up nothing and killing you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why hasn't he just come here and killed us? How likely do you think it is that his abilities are in the band where he can't just storm this camp and slaughter us but can take us in a fight we're expecting?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Where is the meeting and who picked it? I'd think it's pretty likely he can win this fight."

Permalink Mark Unread

Hundred miles north of here, and we named the location. I also think it pretty likely, depending how you're using the term. I don't think they're at more of an advantage there than if they attacked here.

Permalink Mark Unread

"If they attacked here you'd presumably have more numbers. Or if not, they could wait until they know your army is split and then attack here. And this is still the obvious betrayals that we know are options."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot of the things I think you consider non-obvious betrayals are scenarios where he does let us evacuate the continent. That saves a lot of lives, and he doesn't really mind it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's offering a year and a Silmaril, presumably he's not going to give you the Silmaril, there won't even be much of a pretense of a treaty."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"You're human?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And if you had the command here you'd ignore him entirely and prepare for them to come here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'd ignore this offer.

Evacuate the continent anyway and hope he doesn't interfere, maybe, since that's exactly what you'd be doing if you get a favorable result."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can't really be done without a Silmaril. Not unless I want to spend all of my time bringing people around three at a time, and I'm unpersuaded that's the best use of it, though I'll try just in case it goes faster than expected."

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, so the Silmarils aren't just jewels with an oath about them. Might have to ask on the other side of the ice about how they'd enable evacuation.

"So in the version of this where you get the year to evacuate because it helps him somehow, are you expecting that he'll also give up a Silmaril?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Keep in mind I have never met him, he was smart enough to avoid that. I think he'll give us the Silmaril and then attack the evacuees to try to get it back, at a guess." And here we find ourselves at something genuinely classified. Want to help me figure out a way I can share it, or shall I skip it?

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't see how I'd be much help without already knowing what it is. Maybe unless you can tell me the constraints on why it's classified?

"I think I missed a step in your guess there. Why is the Silmaril with the evacuees instead of with you, and why would he prefer this to just not giving it up?"

Permalink Mark Unread

 Stop talking aloud. The Silmaril could be used to establish a perfectly impenetrable kingdom on the south continent to relocate people to, without which we'll have a hard time convincing them to trust us and uproot themselves. Before we got to 'perfectly impenetrable', he could interfere. He doesn't know how to use them and he doesn't know how much we know about how to use them. I think he might be willing to temporarily let one out of his hands, if he's sufficiently sure of recovering it, for more information on that, assuming he knows enough to -correctly - guess that we couldn't take him on with it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, wow. That would be a good outcome.

What do you think are the odds he knows it wouldn't endanger him but not that it can't irrevocably inconvenience him some other way, and doesn't think of the latter? This does rely on him not knowing the Silmaril is that necessary to the evacuation, in which case he'd be planning to take it back from an army instead of refugees. Which sounds harder and correspondingly less likely that he'd be sure enough of recovering it.

He'd also have to value knowledge of what you'd do with a tool you wouldn't otherwise have really highly.

Permalink Mark Unread

You have good strategic sensibilities. I don't think it's very likely. Likely enough to stake twenty lives on, maybe. I think he values knowledge of how to use the SIlmarils very highly and knowledge of how we'd use them is the closest he is going to get.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you. That means a lot, from a person who's actually in command.

Twenty lives, one of them yours. In the much more likely case where you don't walk out alive and with a Silmaril, what's to stop him making the same offer to the survivors? The fact that they know it's a trick?

Permalink Mark Unread

We aren't stupid. We might be able to try this once, might in fact if he's taking the right chances come out ahead on it. We won't try it again. And if he makes the offer to my cousins they'll refuse.

Permalink Mark Unread

If he expects you to show up, he knows he can offer this once. Which means he's using his metaphorical get into jail free card, and you're gambling on it being a trap that you'd rather be in than out of. And the good ending only even happens if he voluntarily hands over powerful magic to see what you'll do with it.

Say you do have the math worked out right and it's worth sending people on a suicide mission. Why you? I talked with your cousins before coming here, and they consider it a much more urgent problem since you're the one going. Not that you're the only indispensable person, but you're the most relevantly indispensable for politics reasons.

Permalink Mark Unread

I am actually unsure what you mean by that. 

Permalink Mark Unread

'I do not want my cousins to be stupider,' one of them said. If you don't come back then that interferes with plans like getting to where sharing information doesn't hurt, however you were planning on pulling that off, that being just the one plan you've mentioned.

Your cousins might be overestimating politics here since they're the ones it affects, but you see how that has more riding on it. How much of a setback do you think it would be if you died?

Permalink Mark Unread

My estimation is honestly that there'd be better prospects for cooperation if I died, they're probably intractable angry with me. I could fix it if we talked but I'm guessing they won't let me talk. And you're aiding them and you have mysterious shareable capabilities which if they are trusting you this much I bet you shared, and I couldn't effectively run a unified command without knowing what my right hand is doing. No. We should probably just give Nolofinwe the kingship except I'm not optimistic he'd use us any better than I currently feel I could use them. Anyway, if I die violently Findekáno would demonstrate his deeply admirable capacity for finding the real enemy and get things sorted. I wouldn't risk my life lightly but I don't think it's of unique political value.

Permalink Mark Unread

...that ran the gamut from unsettlingly well informed to probably wrong to possibly a lie to really unsettlingly well informed. If he somehow guessed magic is shareable, there goes the chance of passing it off as just a normal human thing. Does he already know too much?


They think you're irreplaceable. Which seems like the kind of thing that would be self-fulfilling. If your father or someone else not you is in command, that makes them more likely to just avoid your side as much as they can.

I'd be against the parley plan regardless of who's going. But it being you does raise the stakes.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm going to take your advice on this, mostly to get information on the interesting and suddenly relevant question of whether the Doom has attached to you and decisions stemming from you. We'll stay home. The other things I wanted to discuss with you were information sharing and how to get my cousins across the Ice safely, which of those should we start with?

Permalink Mark Unread

I hadn't even realized this might be a Doom thing.

When I talked about the Doom with your cousins, it was mostly about how "follow" is ambiguous. It shouldn't apply to me and might not apply to them, so non-Doomed people shouldn't be in short supply once they get here.

Let's say information sharing, to start with. I don't think your stated goal is very achievable but that doesn't mean we can't get closer to it.

Permalink Mark Unread

I have very good sources of information in their host, so I am willing to have quite a unilateral agreement. We'll communicate anything of strategic relevance to them. They are asked to send my spies home nicely, if they find them. Does that seem like a better basis to work from?

Permalink Mark Unread

I should probably say, I don't represent them. Can't agree to things on their behalf. That deal sounds to me like it'd be favorable, but that shouldn't actually be worth that much here.

Permalink Mark Unread

And I suppose they wouldn't send Findekáno. They sent someone, though, your senses are not good enough to have eavesdropped because if they were, you would have reacted to the noises I've had several people make outside during this conversation. 

Permalink Mark Unread

My senses aren't, no. Is there any version of this where Maitimo guesses that it's totally possible to be in human-hearing range without being seen and assumes that happened? Would that be any better? Probably not.

Why wouldn't they send Findekáno?

Permalink Mark Unread

I am not going to press the point but plans that depend on keeping secrets from me only work if someone wholly informed whose judgement I trust swears that our prospects against the Enemy are better if I don't know the secret. So, if you're not just playing games with the subterfuge, tell me what I need to avoid finding out.

You know why they wouldn't send Findekáno.

Permalink Mark Unread

You mean because of the, the insulting allegations Artanis likes to hint at, because I did decide to just act like there's enough cultural difference I have no idea what it's about so no one notices I don't seem to care, and it would be fair to call that playing games with a subterfuge–

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean because if we came to terms his own people wouldn't trust them, they have an impression of my capabilities that's wholly inconsistent with what I've actually achieved and think I can hijack him or something. He used to trust me and he still knows me to be capable and thinks my goals are good, there's no magic at work there. What's Artanis implying?

Permalink Mark Unread

That is much better than Maitimo knowing about the other reason Findekáno and Irissë are avoiding him.

Nothing strategically important, more like just embarrassing. She's probably gone around implying it at you at some point; I don't think it's a new thing.


How does telling you what you need to not find out work when it would alert you to the shape or existence of the secret?

Permalink Mark Unread

He is watching her intently. 

 

 

Existence of the secret is obvious; you have capabilities humans don't. You go out of your way to avoid observably using them but don't mind doing things that could not have been done without them; thus it'd be informative even to see you do it, over and beyond the information that you can do it, thus it's probably shareable and your reaction confirmed that. I have a broad sense of what the capabilities entail and will eventually have a much narrower one.  It's magic. It's not typical of or specific to humans. You have senses I don't that can probably also be acquired. Is that enough information that you can decide what additional information I should avoid seeking out?

Permalink Mark Unread

Anything at all in that direction until I've had a chance to panic? Actually at this point it's probably more important that you not spread it to anyone else, you're definitely over the edge on knowing enough for it to count and telling someone would endanger both of us primarily you and also them, and I knew talking to you was risky–

Permalink Mark Unread

It's a threshold thing. What's the threshold?

Permalink Mark Unread

Just a minute, not done panicking.



Okay, so there are sequential thresholds, or past the first it's gradual, but you've definitely hit the important one. Knowing that it's magic, basically, and being unable to fool yourself into buying any other explanation. Normally there's a strong weirdness censor, where if there's any other explanation people will go with that one. I was relying on the fact that non-magic Powers exist and what counts as magic might be fuzzier, plus the fact that no one needs to know what humans can't do, to be a lot freer with magic than normal. But either the thing stopping people from taking the idea of my kind of magic seriously doesn't apply here or you're just that observant, and when I was deciding whether to come here I'm not sure which would have scared me more.

 

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, there is something to make other explanations more compelling even when systemically looking through my hypotheses they seem less likely, and to make likely ones fail to come to mind? That was very annoying, I had to formalize my reasoning to an absurd degree to stop systematically making mistakes. Comes across as hostile, for the record.

Permalink Mark Unread

I actually agree. It's not me doing it, by the way, there'd be the same effect if you tried dropping hints any less clear than just saying it. Which, don't.

Now that you know, you're theoretically in danger. Probably wouldn't be much back home, and less here, but if you run across any of the monsters that go with my kind of magic you're less protected. The bigger problem is that there's a set of pretty arbitrary rules—I should tell you what they are—where if you break them too egregiously the universe hands you a run of bad luck. And me, because one of the stupider rules is that I'm now magically responsible for everything you do.

So I hope you haven't been relaying the existence of magic to anyone else, or the problem could get exponentially worse.

Permalink Mark Unread

Everyone has been trying to puzzle you out but I can tell them 'infohazard, drop it', they trust me. You're accountable for my behavior in what sense?

Permalink Mark Unread

We call it karma.

The universe has opinions on how people should act. Most people don't have to worry about this; it almost never touches them. Practitioners–people with my kind of magic–constantly do. You're closer to the normal people end.

Go against what it wants and you rack up bad karma, which gets redeemed in the form of random events happening to go against you when it counts. Or if you accumulate a lot of it, something jumps out of nowhere and kills you in whatever way is least convenient. I'm accountable for you in the sense that if you manage to get a karma score, good or bad but almost always bad, a percentage of it gets passed on to me. I am trying, apparently unsuccessfully, not to be responsible for too many people.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'll fight this war honorably if I can but I am first and foremost concerned with winning it. I don't know what kind of karma that will leave me. I'm sorry my actions affect you. You're lucky my father hasn't pieced it together. As far as I know. He's smarter than me, might not need as much information.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm more or less expecting to end up with my karma tanked for the same reason. Already started that way, but that doesn't make doing more of it any less dangerous.


One of the other reasons to monopolize magic and related secrets is that I don't know how karma interacts with Doom and it might be suicidal to try to find out.

Permalink Mark Unread

Fair enough. I can keep your secrets. If there's no additional danger to it, can you describe your capabilities? My lies will be better if I know what I'm covering for.

Permalink Mark Unread

Probably. Additional danger should be pretty minor. Describing capabilities is a bit more of a decision than I'd want to make on the spot after being found out, can I get back to you on that one?

Also, lies are one of the main things that earns bad karma. Not a problem since you're not a practitioner, but if you have to lie a lot you should stay away from the spirits' attention.

Permalink Mark Unread

I can aggressively mislead if your spirits find that less objectionable. What gets their attention? Is osanwe less dangerous? Does it matter that I have a reputation as dishonest independent of whatever I did to earn it?

Permalink Mark Unread

Humans don't have osanwë, but in general medium doesn't matter. With the exception that spoken word has more gravity than any other way of saying things. A lie over osanwë shouldn't be any less a lie than a written one. Misleading is not a lie.

You get their attention usually by being a practitioner or an Other–that being a catchall term for the nonhumans that interact with the magic system–or by getting unlucky. There aren't any common ways for that to happen but there are very few absolutes with magic and I can't say never.

An unearned reputation shouldn't hurt you. Not directly. If you were a practitioner and it came up while you were present, the spirits might expect you to announce that you're innocent and take silence as an implicit admission. It'd give your accuser the karmic high ground if you don't, so things go more right for them and wrong for you in the current plot.

Permalink Mark Unread

If I give you information the Nolofinwean host cannot have will you promise not to share it with them.

Permalink Mark Unread

If I would otherwise not know it, then making that promise shouldn't hurt.
Is that absolute, like if there's some unpredictable emergency more important than your stated reason for secrecy where acting on the secret could save the day do I have to pretend not to know it? Or if someone guesses as soon as I walk into a room with them while knowing it, I assume that doesn't count as sharing?

I don''t want to give a promise lightly; those are binding.

Permalink Mark Unread

This is circumstance-driven. I did not burn the ships. I promised Findekáno we were coming back for him and I meant it and Father announced his intent on the other shore and I tried to stop him and I failed. You might have noticed I have a surprising amount of freedom of action for having just publicly disobeyed my King on something that important. My father and I have an understanding. Part of that understanding is that leveraging my defiance of him for political advantage with the Nolofinweans would be unacceptable. But if I cannot contradict them when they call me a liar, the universe will take it to be true?

Permalink Mark Unread

Kind of. If a practitioner makes a show of asking you and you don't say no, the spirits would read that as you being in the wrong. It wouldn't mean that you having burned the ships becomes "true." If you said afterward that you never did it, no number of missed chances to deny it would make that register as a lie. It could work against you in the short term, like for whatever the practitioner is doing or or about to do right then. Keeping silent wouldn't affect your long-term karma balance or anything even if you were a practitioner.

Permalink Mark Unread

Hmm. All right. That does not seem sufficient incentive to set the record straight, given what it would cost me.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, if it's as you've described I wouldn't either.


You suggested helping them across the Ice, earlier. Is that even possible from here?

Permalink Mark Unread

Two different avenues. The way to get my father to be helpful on something like that is to present it as an engineering problem, incidentally. One is that Macalaure's been composing a song for better local control of the elements, have they shown you how those work? My brother is better at them. His will do a lot more. But I'm not sure if humans can even learn our music and anyway the reason Macalaure's better than anyone else is that he has much better musical precision and his songs accordingly require more of it so even if you can learn the typical magic song that we teach children you may not be able to learn this one. 

The second avenue is magic artifacts. In making those we're constrained by time - the process is very slow - and by materials, we have little metal and little fuel for forges here. Since you first arrived my father has been working on developing a reproducible design for rings for protection from the elements. It'll take even him a month and then we could set twenty thousand people to producing twenty thousand of them, though I want to be clear that the cost to us of twenty thousand person-months of magic work is extraordinary and that we'd be doing this so they don't war with us not because it's really a sensible set of strategic priorities. 

To know whether to work on the second plan I need to know the carrying capacity of your unreasonably fast transit and when they're planning to cross and whether they'd even be willing to delay six weeks.

Permalink Mark Unread

When I tried joining in some of the weather songs I didn't notice much difference. I did sound pretty pathetic even compared to singers who aren't Macalaure, so it could have been ineffective because humans can't do it or because I didn't sing well enough or it did and I just didn't compare closely enough.

When they're planning to cross, I don't think that's secret but the King has a habit of running through more possible plans than I'd think of. Me telling you might disrupt something I don't know about. Don't start spending twenty thousand person-months of magic on artifacts.

I'd have made sure to be better informed on this stuff if I were here as their ambassador instead of just trying to convince you to stay out of the trap.

Permalink Mark Unread

Fair. You can bring someone who can learn from Macalaure, if you don't expect you'll be able to get anywhere. I appreciate you trying to convince me to stay out of the trap but if you weren't trying to exploit your comparative non-Doomedness and didn't have any information I don't I am confused as to how you were so confident I was making the wrong call.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's not because I'm personally not doomed, just– my world literally has a mechanism for ensuring that what can go wrong will. Even if the plan is a good one on average, if thirty possible Maitimos die and one singlehandedly wins the war, the last one can just not happen. Math stops applying.

Permalink Mark Unread

I see. That's annoying and I appreciate your coming over to communicate it. We're - not going to avoid thinking in terms of large numbers, with a war like this that'd be very deeply unwise, but we'll take care to adjust for it. 

 

You can communicate to my cousins my regards in any form you think they'd actually appreciate the sentiment, which might be 'not at all'. I have a letter for Findekano if you unconditionally-promise not to read it or try to learn its contents or make known to anyone but him that you have it.

Permalink Mark Unread

I promise. I'm guessing you won't want that one out loud. 

Before I leave, I should tell you the rules the spirits expect. They barely apply to you, but it can start to add up over just a few decades.

Permalink Mark Unread

Our strategic plan for the war has it ending in four hundred years. Do go on. He produces a letter. 

Permalink Mark Unread

She accepts the letter without looking closely at any external details.

If these seem arbitrary and disconnected, they do to me too.

Lying you know about. You can also gain karma from keeping promises or succeeding at tasks you've announced you'll attempt. This is almost never worth trying; it only works if there's a good chance of failing.

Attacking an enemy without warning is frowned upon, but if you believe you're fairly retaliating for something they did, that's encouraged. This has the obvious effect with promoting feuds. You can get karma from acting an assigned role. That works even if it's self-assigned. Think of it as an implicit promise. It is possible to inherit karma, usually but not necessarily going to the oldest child when someone dies. Oldest child regardless of gender; magic is very gender-neutral nearly all of the time. Discriminating between them would be seen as weird, and they spirits prefer statuses quo. 
It is very important, especially if Men ever turn up and start becoming practitioners, that you not just think of individuals as interchangeable "latest scion of the house of whatever." That happened on my world, and now the basic unit of practitioner society is the bloodline or equivalent.

If you have a visitor, you offer food and drink because if you don't they might starve before they reach the next house. Almost never true, by the way, but it was when the rule caught on—and if you're a guest you don't abuse that or you might be killing the next person. That offer is also a truce of sorts. Even if the visitor is an enemy who you'd stab in the back and have the spirits side with you, you don't betray hospitality.

People are responsible for their own actions, Spirits are usually not very willing to accept coercion as a defense, but in extreme enough cases it's someone else's action done by your handMost possible actions don't have specific rules about that situation in particular—doing something is good is if it helps or harms people by those people's own lights. Not very clearly defined, but it probably can't be. It's worth having all practitioners run that in the back of their mind all the time.
People matter, and everything else in the universe is useful scenery.

Permalink Mark Unread

Could be worse. Not - not good, but for something non-sentient trying to do morality...

 

Now that you trust me a little more do you want anything to eat or drink or deflect arrows?

Permalink Mark Unread

The deflecting arrows I should probably accept. Getting killed by a stray shot would be anticlimactic. I don't know how limited the deflectors are, would it mean taking one away from someone who faces arrows more often than I do?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes, but someone probably less catastrophic to lose. None of us can do whatever you did with that valarauka and I take it you're not teaching. He opens his drawers again, shuffles, pulls out a ring - won't help you at close enough range. 

Permalink Mark Unread

The limitation on that is closer to equipment than information, but you're substantially right.

She accepts the ring and slides it on.

Thank you. I'll try to make sure that me being a bit safer works out to be worth someone else being a lot less so.

Permalink Mark Unread

I know you will or I wouldn't have offered. If you have the means to keep a forge hot - we're stuck using singing and charcoal at the moment, there are no readily available dense fuel sources - there'd be more rings for everyone. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I might be able to help a bit, make it reliably take less charcoal or something if I'm lucky, but forge temperatures are way beyond me for the near future.

Permalink Mark Unread

Fair enough. We were not expecting magical assistance in any flavor, and if that's non-trivial for you then whatever you do to valaraukar is a more urgent project. 

Permalink Mark Unread

The limiting factor in both cases is the thing analogous to equipment. The weapon is going to be hard to get more of.

 

Do you keep your forges running continuously? And are they the hottest fires in the area?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes and yes by a long shot. 

Permalink Mark Unread

They're probably the best available place to look for "materials" for heat magic. Can I see them?

Permalink Mark Unread

I have not had time to come up with a sufficiently good explanation that everyone will drop their things and leave, if you can't have eyewitnesses. You can certainly take a look.  He stands. 

Permalink Mark Unread

She follows him.

Looking will be worth a lot.

If it's powered by singing, privacy might be impossible. I don't know yet if the magic would need it to be actively heated or just to have recently been hot.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's wood-fired, with singing just helping to mean we use slightly less absurd quantities of wood. I don't know how much you know about metalworking, but know the difference between the temperature water freezes at and boils at? You need that difference, nine times over, to get metal-forging temperature. We're going to cut down all the local forests. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Trees aren't all that renewable, and I definitely don't see local forests lasting four hundred years. Do you know what you're doing next?

Permalink Mark Unread

Coal, once we can find it, if the Outer Lands have it. If they don't we're going to have to stop depending on metal, songs alone can't get anywhere close. 

Permalink Mark Unread

How do you even have forests here? Where I'm from trees are completely dependent on the sun (Suns: they're this thing) and they'd just all be dead by now.

Permalink Mark Unread

Personal intervention of Yavanna. She's going to be angry at us but probably not angrier than she already is. The Doom was a disaster but at least it also meant the Valar washed their hands of us. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Divine intervention with questionable priorities. Fantastic.

Well, hopefully I can get the forges working better with less deforestation.

Permalink Mark Unread

Trust me, we'd be delighted; we hate doing things that are destructive and unsustainable, and this is also an absurd amount of work. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm hoping to do something analogous to increase food production. Do you grow crops at all, or are you still living on mostly orcs?

Permalink Mark Unread

We can grow things, but not in a remotely scaleable manner. We have greenhouses, and we can fill them with hundreds of lampstones each of which is about ten weeks of engineering effort, and then about a quarter of our crops seem willing to very halfheartedly grow. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe I could do something with that. Though it doesn't sound like the best conditions to try it for the first time.

Permalink Mark Unread

Probably not. Unless you can fetch us a Silmaril - and I assume my cousins have explained the manifest reasons not to do that - conditions can't be expected to get any better, though. 

Permalink Mark Unread

True.

How much of a priority is food compared to forges or firepower?

Permalink Mark Unread

That depends on when and in what kind of condition we can expect them to come across the Ice.

Permalink Mark Unread

Not a priority until they get here, then?

I'm also much more confident I can do anything about fire than food.

Permalink Mark Unread

Growing food takes time. If they're leaving soon then it's a priority now. But let's start with fire. He gestures at the building ahead of them. It has a handful of wary guards, who stand aside as they approach. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Fire is basic. What I can do depends mostly on what happens to be in there, not on what I can figure out how to do.

They go into the building. It's the first time in what seems like forever that anything has been actually hot. To the sense Maitimo figured out he doesn't have, the forges have a lot more variety than the Ice did. There, it was more or less nothing but unoccupied space and physical matter, with almost no spirits other than elementals. Objects here have ownership, history, purposes, countless themes that would take different specialists to even recognize. But it's the elemental makeup that's useful here, and there is no shortage of fire. Many of the smaller elementals, the pigeons or rats of the magic world, flee when noticed. It might be possible to notice clouds of sparks or smoke appearing in places Amber looks at. Others, especially the larger ones, are entrenched enough to stay put.

Okay, there is definitely enough to work with here. More than I hoped, even.

Permalink Mark Unread

Lovely. Do you need me to ask people to leave? I can't do it without attracting suspicion but I can certainly do it. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I really don't need more suspicion. The bigger problem is that people would have to notice a nearly fuelless forge anyway.
Could we pass it off as a song that's not repeatable for some reason?

Permalink Mark Unread

The explanation of you that I'm leaning towards is that you can make song effects permanent, which would be terrifying and have tremendous implications and also any new capabilities you manifest can be explained away as my cousins composing something new. Unless you think that crosses the knowledge thresholds. So - a song of my cousins' that you won't teach us - that's common, people don't always teach their songs and my cousins have cause for anger with us - but have agreed to put in place on our forges. You can have a purported agenda there or it can be assumed I smiled winningly, whatever suits you. I can tell it without any lies, that was among the hypotheses I considered when trying to figure you out. 

Permalink Mark Unread

That explanation should be safe. Could you get away with it being a thing Men in general can do?

The Nolofinweans wouldn't easily believe that, since if it were true their camp would be warmer. So if the armies talk to each other they'd notice it's inconsistent.
Long-lasting song effects wouldn't explain any direct combat, but I can just try not to be seen fighting.

Speaking of which, do you think you could make me a few of these, enchanted so they can hurt a valarauka? She thinks of the bullet shape. Right now I can't kill one unless someone has already punctured it from inside sword range. The Nolofinweans are working on a clever approximation, but without forges it's not even sharp and they can't make anything that'd survive hitting the target whether it worked or not.

Permalink Mark Unread

The armies are going to talk to each other enough for that to be a problem. Maybe you can do it, but not as often as you want? Maybe I can tell my people that our knowledge of your capabilities is a secret from them. I don't know if Nolofinwe has any spies here but perhaps he'd be good enough to help me manage secrecy on this, I can promise not to otherwise exploit the knowledge. Or I can find them. And yes, we can make those. 

Permalink Mark Unread

So, I came here and you convinced me to help without telling Nolofinwe about it? I do think the real Nolofinwe would help, but I'm not sure what the spies would think is going on.

Permalink Mark Unread

There are at least some benefits to a reputation for convincingness that far exceeds my actual capabilities. People are willing enough to treat 'then Maitimo convinced them'  as an explanation. 

Permalink Mark Unread

You don't think you could have convinced me?

Anyway, that explanation sounds like it'd work to deflect suspicion if I do it now. We didn't want there to be witnesses to how I can make songs last longer.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Your attention," he says mildly, though they already have it. "This is Amber, the first of the race of Men. The Enemy told us much of the capacities of Men but there are things he didn't tell us. He did not say, for example, that Men have the capacity to make the benefits of musical magic permanent. This explains many of the questions that have rather enchanted us for the last week, and I commend everyone who was thinking in that direction. Macalaure's coming to help and we're going to make the forges run hotter with less fuel; we need the space to ourselves. Please leave."

Permalink Mark Unread

(Amber manages not to laugh at "first of the race of Men.")

I'll need maybe a couple gallons of water, but there's no rare materials involved. And how soundproof is it in here?

Permalink Mark Unread

It's not, but Macalaure can sing louder than whatever you're doing. 

Permalink Mark Unread

That works.

I could do it entirely with symbols, but it'll go better if I speak. I found out how good your hearing is when the Nolofinweans overheard me trying something. Passing it off as a weird human religion wouldn't help here, not since people will know it does things.

Permalink Mark Unread

My brother's on his way. Was that statement sufficiently not-lying for the spirits' purposes, by the way? 

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't know if it explains any questions you've had for the last week. Everything else would count as true.

Permalink Mark Unread

It does; it would for example allow you to travel fast enough to come here and back. 

The door opens and someone else steps in. His eyebrows are raised. I told you my objections to that explanation, Maitimo.

You did, Maitimo says peaceably. Will you please trust me and drop this and sing something plausibly useful for heat? Loudly? 

Permalink Mark Unread

While not watching? I don't know how much Maitimo told you, but there's an information hazard.

Permalink Mark Unread

He mentioned. He turns around and looks at the wall. And starts to sing.

He has a stunningly beautiful voice. 

Permalink Mark Unread

You're amazing. I know you probably get that a lot, but.

A pellet of liquid water floats out of Amber's pocket. The elemental inside moves into larger volumes of borrowed water, which strings itself out and starts weaving symbols centered on the fires. The diagrams get tighter, evaporating quickly when they get too close until more heat elementals get acquired and made to keep them cool. Most of the fire elementals here don't need to be very tightly bound; they're doing more of exactly what they're best at, not being forced to obey a practitioner's every will.

This repeats a few times. But it doesn't need to repeat exactly once per elemental, and the forges need heat not smoke or flame or all the other varieties of fire spirit. Some of the more powerful ones can get sealed into objects for later without being too obvious about it.


Amber doesn't say much out loud; Macalaure would hear even if no one else does, and Maitimo doesn't know the details of what she's doing. But identifying a place to heat and a target temperature doesn't give anything away.

Permalink Mark Unread

Maitimo watches her placidly. Macalaure keeps singing to the door. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I think that's everything useful. Macalaure, thank you for helping with the cover story.

Permalink Mark Unread

Sure. Are you planning to use this to hurt us? Could you, if you wanted to?

Permalink Mark Unread

No and yes.

If it helps, you do have leverage over me and Maitimo has more. It's not as if the situation is entirely one-sided.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't want the power to hurt you. I want our cousins unaware you can, ideally, but it may be too late for that. 

Permalink Mark Unread

They definitely know I can.
They also know I won't use this against you on their say-so alone, and that I'd support worse allies than you when our common Enemy is capitalized.

Permalink Mark Unread

And they presumably have whatever leverage against you Maitimo does, only moreso. 

Take care.

Permalink Mark Unread

I will. Hasn't been enough so far, but I will. Thank you.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you. That'll be tremendously useful. It sounds like there are very good reasons not to tell my father about you but I can also guarantee you there are obvious-to-him avenues to leverage your capabilities which no one else will think of. I'd appreciate it if you'd think about whether there's a way to make it safe. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I doubt it. There are a lot of reasons and some are more indelible than others. But I definitely don't refuse to think about it.

Permalink Mark Unread

If you die, the danger of sharing your capabilities with people falls entirely on me?

Permalink Mark Unread

The karma problem, yes.

Permalink Mark Unread

My father is a very good and astonishingly capable person. The danger is the karma thing. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes. One of the ways to reap good karma is to announce that you'll do some difficult thing and then succeed; is it true that he'd be hard to warn off this? Because that risk is sort of set up to be not worth it.

Permalink Mark Unread

He'll decide not to be a practitioner. I wouldn't be one even if you told me how, it's obviously something where I'd be better off having ten people under me who I trust doing that while I make decisions with less regard for karma. He would be a bad practitioner but a valuable person to be informed about what's going on.

Permalink Mark Unread

That lowers the stakes, at least.

Permalink Mark Unread

We've already rather pledged ourselves to a path incompatible with your magic. 

Permalink Mark Unread

That pledge is two or three of the reasons I was wary of letting even this much slip, to be honest.

Permalink Mark Unread

I am not a reckless person; I am one who sometimes thinks my soul a reasonable thing to stake in trades. I'm not going to put my people in danger.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't have much choice other than to trust you with this, but I have been trying to trust as few people as possible.

Don't try to stake your karma along with your soul, if a chance comes up. Even if I'm already dead it's just a bad idea. When it comes back to bite you it will affect more than just you.

Permalink Mark Unread

You have made that clear and I will take it very seriously. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Good.

And, assuming you didn't already tell people my secret and just ask them to hide it from me, thanks for not telling people.

Permalink Mark Unread

Assuming you're trying to win the war, I want you to succeed. You are welcome to any aid we can give you. 

Permalink Mark Unread

That was roughly my logic as well.

 


Practitioners can't lie, so this is kind of assumed on my world, but would it be against some rule to ask for an oath that you haven't lied to me? If so your cousins will be able to confirm it, so you won't have to worry about me making inferences from silence.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's an extreme thing to ask but not against rules. I haven't been watching my words closely enough this whole conversation to unhesitatingly give you an oath - I'm not in the habit, our universe doesn't punish lies - but you can name specific things and I can swear to those. I won't swear to the truth on the boats without a promise you won't share it except under circumstances where you think you'd have my permission if you could ask it. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I will not willingly tell anyone, or try to orchestrate anyone finding out, that you wanted the boats sent back for the other host and spoke honestly against burning them and did not participate in the burning, unless my best estimate at the time is that you would agree. If I reasonably can ask at the time, I'll confirm my guess first.

Aside from the thing about the boats...you haven't told anyone what you know of my real abilities and anyone except Macalaure that the cover story is false. You are not currently planning to in the near future. You would not want to become a practitioner and you believe your father wouldn't either... You've mostly given up on getting everyone under the same leader but are trying to ensure that sharing information doesn't hurt the side that shares. You offer to tell them anything strategically relevant that arises, and ask that if they find your spies they send them home peacefully. And you don't plan to parley with Melkor.

I don't like being extreme about it, but it's a standard enough expectation back home that I do think I should ask.

Permalink Mark Unread

And I have a reputation. I don't think you're being rude, under the circumstances. All of those I'll swear to except that I bet my father would want to become a practitioner, he'd just certainly decide not to do it. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Swearing to certainty about future events would be a bad idea if it were my kind of oath. I don't know how yours handles hyperbole. That you expect he'd turn it down should be strong enough.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, it'd be a good idea in the sense that he'd do what I said he'd do rather than have me forsworn. It'd be a bad idea if I couldn't count on him to do that. Expectation's much safer. All right. I didn't burn the boats. I tried to prevent it. I haven't told anyone of your abilities and haven't told anyone but Macalaure that the cover story is false, though I told a number of people 'infohazard, stop' from which they could infer the falsity of the cover story. I am not planning to tell anyone the truth and will only tell people the cover story's false if I trust them to leave it at 'infohazard, stop.' I don't intend to become a practitioner. I don't expect my father would, if he had the information I have, decide to become a practitioner. I am not optimistic about a united Noldorin command. I want arrangements such that we can share strategically relevant information. I intend to tell them anything strategically relevant that arises, and ask them if they find my spies to send them home peaceably. I don't plan to parlay with Melkor.

"I swear that everything I've said since you last spoke over osanwe is true as far as I know."

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you.

And...yeah, that sure was two conflicting excuses. How many people do you think will notice?

Permalink Mark Unread

There are six people to who I said 'infohazard, stop.' I trust most of them to leave it at that and will go talk to the others. 

Permalink Mark Unread

It still being just you so far makes this much better than it could have been.

Can I assume you won't have me followed on the way out? It's for the obvious reason.

Permalink Mark Unread

We want the Enemy dead, we are not trying to be your enemies here. I won't have you followed. I swear that what I most recently said is true. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Good. I could avoid it—didn't know coming in whether you'd be friendly—but asking anyway seemed like the prudent thing.

Permalink Mark Unread

And you underestimated us, coming in. So yes, telling me to keep your secrets works better than trying to keep them from me. Good skill and safe travels.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes, that too.

 

On the way out she continuously checks for any suddenly established connections, but no one sees her when they shouldn't. Back into the air and to Nolofinwe it is.

Permalink Mark Unread

Were you able to talk him down?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes. Not me being convincing, I don't think– his stated reason was that he wanted to see what effect taking advice from a non-Doomed person would have. I think the trip qualifies as a success. A very qualified success.

He guessed about the magic.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm sorry. It was definitely a risk. Is he going to tell people? He still can't become a practitioner, right?

Permalink Mark Unread

He hasn't and doesn't plan to, as of right before I left. A few other people have enough information to be a problem if they disregard him saying it's an infohazard.

Maitimo can't become a practitioner without instructions for the ritual. He made a point of misleading people with true statements by magic's standards, I thought he was angling for being a practitioner eventually but he did swear he didn't intend to become one. Maybe he decided on that intention just so he could.

Permalink Mark Unread

That'd be in character. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah.

He gave me a letter for you, after I promised not to read it or inform anyone else it exists. I thought about not promising, but that'd just mean he finds out you didn't want to talk to him sooner.

Permalink Mark Unread

Do you want to light it on fire or do you want to give it to me so I can light it on fire. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Decided you're not forgiving him for all this, then?

Permalink Mark Unread

I am going to forgive him but he is not going to maneuver me into it. 

Permalink Mark Unread

That sounds more like a reason to not read the letter yet than to burn it. 

I do have fire spirits, by the way. Turns out a permanently running fire at above nine hundred degrees is a pretty good place to get those. Should help for your ring, or possibly the burning.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, I should have thought of that. Excellent. How's Maitimo, aside from 'very likable'?

Permalink Mark Unread

We didn't talk personal lives much, but he seems to be doing as well as could possibly be expected with his side of the everything. Also terrifyingly good at ferreting out information, but that one you knew.

Permalink Mark Unread

They're all brilliant. If they were less amoral and reckless they'd be amazing. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I believe it. He was running rings around me the whole time, or at least I think he was.

Permalink Mark Unread

At least you noticed. I didn't, until it was rather too late. If he swore not to share, though, that's something. And he's not going off to get himself killed. That's good. 

 

Strategically.

Permalink Mark Unread

That was the main goal, yeah.

 

I'll be talking to him again soon, probably, unless some undeniable reason not to comes up.
Which means he'll know you didn't reply to his letter, who knows what he'll extrapolate from that.

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean. I think he has an excellent idea of what I think of him. We're going to need to forgive them all eventually for the sake of the war but I think I can avoid jumping whenever he snaps his fingers. You are welcome to tell him I burned the letter.

Permalink Mark Unread

He also knows you're a practitioner, I'm almost sure. Not Irissë though. You definitely should be warned about that one.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

 

Thanks.

If his father hadn't handled everything so badly Maitimo was obviously going to be the next King of the Noldor, everyone knew it. He'd have been scary good.

Permalink Mark Unread

Or a scary good practitioner, on my world, or just scary.



I should update the King on all this; part of it is an offer of diplomacy.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'll tell him to shoo people away for us. What's the offer of diplomacy?

Permalink Mark Unread

They tell us anything strategically relevant—he intends to do that anyway; his goal is for sharing information to at least not make people worse off—and he requests that we send their spies back if we find them. They have spies, apparently.

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I knew he had spies but did not really expect their unswerving loyalty to survive being abandoned here with us to die. That's - that's honestly just bizarre, as a request or statement of intent or whatever it is supposed to be. We are not amoral and reckless, we're not going to execute people, so what concession does he want? Or is it just a way of communicating 'I'm playing so many levels above you that you should not even bother'?

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It sounds suspiciously reasonable to you too? I assumed it meant spying was really severely disapproved of, there've been human societies that would execute them.
Maybe he doesn't still have spies and is just distracting whatever espionage systems you have. And shouldn't tell me about because I'll be in a room with Maitimo at some point.

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I mean, it's considered very rude and would make people disapprove of him if they didn't have better reasons. Elves don't have any crimes for which we'd execute people, I suppose we can reconsider that in the Outer Lands where we can't just ask the Valar to find a solution that makes it impossible for them to harm others, but that isn't where I'd first have diverted the attention of a more retributive justice system.

I will avoid telling you things I don't want my cousin to know.

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Yeah, I just wasn't expecting sending them back to be as trivial as it sounded.

Can't just look at people and see who's got connections running off toward the Feanorians, unfortunately. That's practically everyone.

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We can see that kind of thing?

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Yes? It varies by individual, but shouldn't be that much. 
If there's currents of whatever the microscopic spirits look like to you, and they seem to be going in consistent paths to and from people, that's probably this. A specialist might be able to tell more, like how strong of a relationship or what kind, but we don't have one of those handy.

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Oh, I was worried you could sense strength or kind. Existence is all right. I can see currents. 

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Yeah, it's only the same thing you cut off in the unnoticeability trick.

Potentially a useful specialty. A really good enchanter might plausibly be able to redirect orcs' oaths.

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I shall consider specializing in it. 

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We don't have any way to get that good, of course. Knowledge is a currency, I wasn't rich, all that.

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You can't make up for it with time?

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Theoretically. Techniques have to have been developed somehow, and that one doesn't sound like an especially dangerous field for just trying things.

Normally there isn't all that much innovation. It's less effort to get an existing hard-to-get book.

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But we have all the time in the world and no books, so we'll have to see where we can get.  How common are practitioners good enough to see and manipulate relationship kinds, oaths, things like that?

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No relevant books. We should get mine transcribed off that device at some point just in case.

Oaths would be hard, if they literally can't not serve him and he's there being all undeniably himself. Maybe impossible. It is heard of but very rare for an enchanter to be able to steal someone's familiar, which is the best analogy I can think of.

 

I don't think there are many practitioners who can change other peoples' relationships. Affect strength of the connection, maybe. And of course being really good at the disappearing trick.

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I just can't think why Maitimo'd tell us he had spies except as a power play or to waste our time. And yet.  

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Maybe he doesn't know if they're still loyal, and this is a way to find out who we think is sympathetic to his side so he can do...something, once he has actual spies? I doubt trying to figure it out is going to be very productive.

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Probably not. King's ready to speak to you.

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All right. Here's hoping Maitimo knowing things isn't a political disaster on top of the magical one.


And she heads tentward to fill in the King. The ring can come off; there aren't arrows to deflect here and it might be recognizable as Feanorian.

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How'd it go? he asks, though he's presumably already informed of that. 

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For a success, pretty badly.

He did agree to make the weapon I asked you about, so we shouldn't need a hundred copies made of ice. That's something.

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I hope he appreciates that we could really just have let him get himself killed. What was his justification for going to the parley anyway?

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They were hoping the Enemy would give them a Silmaril to see what they could do with it, and then find out he couldn't take it back. They thought it was a good enough outcome to be worth staking lives on despite the odds.

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...and what can they do with the Silmarils? They're really pretty, they'd let you grow crops...

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That's apparently classified. Enough to convince me he was right about the parley having positive results on average.
I'd definitely tell you if it mattered strategically, but now that they're staying put with the Enemy I'm not sure it does.

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Why's he not going, if he convinced you the parley had positive results on average?

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If the Doom means anything, it means averages stop applying.

And on his part it was an experiment to see what happens if he takes advice from known non-Doomed people. If he's inclined to try for a larger sample size I'd want him to think I can be fully informed, hence the not telling you about the Silmarils. Sorry.

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I am not delighted that Maitimo has you keeping secrets for them this fast, but I applaud you successfully talking him down and understand that he'll know what you said. And then he guessed that your magic isn't something like our world's?

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Neither am I. How secret is the departure time, by the way? I told him I should err on the side of not saying before I check. He probably suspects anyway.

He had already guessed about the magic, but meeting me confirmed it was different and shareable. The cover story on that side is that Men can make songs permanent, which meant I could improve their forges, which meant I had a chance to catch some fire elementals. There've been a couple times when those would have come in really useful recently.

...also I could probably destroy their forges now, if it comes up.

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The departure time isn't importantly secret but I'm disinclined to tell them, they hardly need to know. 

 

I can imagine circumstances under which that'd be useful but they'd be pretty extreme. How are their forges now improved?

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Fire elementals—they had a lot of them—outputting heat instead of just sitting there. Very basic, barely more complicated than the unmelting ice. It means they'll burn hotter with less fuel. Could have concentrated it in a single fuelless forge but that wouldn't have fit with the cover story.

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Oh, useful. What's Maitimo's ostensible reason for wanting to know our departure date? Familial concern?

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His father has been working on rings for warmth; if we were leaving in a month or later they could start producing those.

I didn't say when even though I admitted to knowing it, and I did say not to drop everything else to churn out those rings. It wouldn't surprise me if he guessed that we're leaving extremely soon.

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Do you think he was telling the truth about their willingness to drop everything to churn out rings?

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What he said was that it was ridiculously extreme, he gave an estimate of how much work it'd be but I forget the number, but they'd do it if it were that or an extra war. He wasn't seriously considering it.

This is only his stated reason for wanting to know the timing.

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I do not think he'd try ambushing us on the other side even if you weren't with us. Unless Macalaure has a sleep song. 

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Maitimo did say he's been working on an improved weather song, but who knows what Macalaure has.

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That's not an easy contingency to plan around in any event. We'll presume that he's pretending to be friendly because he wants us to think he's friendly, and will keep wanting that, at least. 

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That sounds like a safe bet.

How out of character would it sound for Fëanáro to turn down magic? Maitimo says his father would certainly decide against if I offered it, though I talked him down to "probably" before he swore.

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He might. Mostly because of the 'laws enforced by the universe' thing, he loathes that kind of thing. If Maitimo got the choice of how to present it, I am sure he could present it such that his father rejected it. 

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...now that you mention it I don't think we specified who was doing the offering.

I did try to give Maitimo a filtered view of the rules. If he does tell other people they'll hopefully end up perpetuating a partly improved version. Downplayed the inheritance thing, specified that magic is gender neutral, and said "should" about some things that aren't rules yet but should be. Shouldn't help anything unless he spreads it around, or hurt even then.

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Which he didn't currently intend to do, but he's flexible with his intending. He sighs. Thank you. Do you still think we should settle as far from them as possible and avoid communicating with them?

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I don't think this changes much from my end. It's still roughly the same amount of a problem if the factions compare notes on what I've been seen doing. Would you have wanted to stay away if you'd known earlier that they'd at least pretend to be friendly?

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The factions won't compare notes if Maitimo doesn't want them to. Fëanáro's people are fanatically loyal which has the disadvantage they'll all obey orders to commit war crimes but the advantage they'll keep secrets on his orders unquestioningly. 

I am worried that the Enemy could try to provoke our camps to unfriendliness.

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His way of preventing it is to say I can make songs permanent, but act like they're not supposed to know it. It holds water, but possibly not long-term. And might contribute to the unfriendliness if everyone there thinks I'm betraying everyone here.

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So opposite ends of the continent may still be best.

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Yeah. We'll still have to find somewhere.

If we're hiding the departure time from Maitimo, we should bring someone who can use song magic. He offered us Macalaure's new weather song, and there's no way we wouldn't take that if the problem weren't already solved.

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Findarato can go but then he'd have to be informed more about your capabilities. 

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Between informing another person and letting Maitimo know that it's only Findekáno and Irissë, I think the second is less of a problem. He'd guess eventually anyway.

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I'm rubbish at music, Irisse says, particularly if it's something of Macalaure's. 

I am curious how Maitimo would react if I told him I swore never to speak to him again, Findekano says, and thinking maybe I should swear not to speak to him at least for the trip. But I could do it.

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That sounds extreme.

If we're halfway through your list of people you'd trust with magic, is there anyone on the other half that we'd probably awaken eventually? Informing someone at all is the risk, doing it earlier is less of one.

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Turukano and Elenwe, the King says, or my sister.

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Whoever of those can best learn and teach a song, then?

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Elenwe'll tell Turukano and vice versa - marriage makes it nearly impossible to keep secrets. It'll be Lalwen, I suppose.

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All right. Best wait until they've had time to forge the replacement for the ice bullets before leaving, minimize visits to their camp.

am a bit concerned about the implications for future magic if every practitioner is royalty. I know family members come to mind as trustworthy people, but even so.

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Yes, I know. Once things have stabilized a bit I'll be able to recommend you more people - it's not just trustworthiness but also latitude for inexplicable actions and vanishing frequently.

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That does make sense.

 

The other thing about talking to Maitimo, is he wants his father informed on what it is I really do. Something about there inevitably being clever uses no one else would think of. And that would involve being responsible for whatever Fëanáro does next, which, no, but I am considering telling Maitimo.

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In the expectation he'll tell his father, which keeps your karma clear and gives Fëanáro some incentive to be careful?

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No, after ensuring he won't. Telling Fëanáro would be more risk for Maitimo than me, but it still sounds like an excellent way of making there be more bad karma total. That, and if the person whose family swore the Oath for him ever awakens it'd have to be a setback for fixing magic's ethics.

Maitimo says he wants it for planning reasons, which does make sense.

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Everything Maitimo says makes sense. We used to have a saying that you could pave the whole road from Ilmarin to Utumno with good intentions.

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The main downside has already happened, and revealing what I could do with fire looks like it worked out well for both sides. Short of actually being his enemy I think him knowing is better than not.

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If you can get him to swear not to share it, yes, all right.

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I think that's everything from him...anything he ought to know? That he doesn't need to expect a nearby camp, maybe.

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That limiting intelligence sharing with respect to you is probably good, and probably going to be hard without his cooperation? I could not let any Feanorian defectors in but if I let any in at all some will be spies.

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He is—seems—on board with the secrecy already, and does have the same thing I do riding on it. His spies, they won't tell just anyone Men can mess with song duration. No huge hole in the secrecy from that end. They themselves might see too much, eventually.

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All right. There's a war on, I think that might be the best we can do with respect to unhelpful annoyingly competent allies.

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It's better than the opposite problem, at least.

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I hold them in as much regard as one can hold people who leave you to die and, notice, haven't even tried conveying apologies. And I don't think their - tendency to be themselves - makes them a net negative in the war. Unless the Enemy thinks of handing some city of poor fools a Silmaril, in which case Eru help us all.

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Eru or practitioners. Whichever.

Are there any cities foolish enough to fight a war over it, against people who can't stop? 

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I don't know anything about the political structures of the Outer Lands. Lots of people might. The Silmarils are very tempting.

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Even people who aren't from the Outer Lands didn't know what the Silmarils could do. Why are they that tempting?

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There's no light in the world, and they can light an arbitrary area around them by as much as you'd like. And they're indestructible and beautiful and blessed by the gods.

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Arbitrary area, I can see that being worth a war. For someone sufficiently shortsighted.

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My brother once wanted to hang them in the sky. If he could figure out how, he could light the whole world.

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Figure it out how? Building things that can put satellites in orbit is hard, very hard, but it's not conceptually tricky. Just have to be moving fast enough.

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In orbit?

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I guess there's no reason you should know about that. Or Fëanáro, for that matter.

So, down is measured toward the center of the earth. If you're far enough and fast enough, you go laterally and let gravity change your direction. If you do the math right you can end up going in a circle and stay that way almost indefinitely.

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The center of Valinor? The center of Endore? Wouldn't people near the edges kind of slide, then?

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Edges?

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Of the world?

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It's a sphere. Is yours somehow not a sphere.

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How would it be a sphere? Wouldn't you notice the ground bending down?

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No, because down means toward the center. If the world were a cube or something it'd pull the edges down until it stopped being a cube or something.

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The world's flat. Down is just down.

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People assumed ours was flat for a while, but with your eyesight you'd be less likely to mess that one up. If it's flat what happens at the edges? If you even have gravity the way my world does this should be impossible.

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The Valar advised us not to try it, it's dangerous. Fëanáro and his wife went a couple times, I think.

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More dangerous than just the fact that you can fall off and die? There should be weird gravity things going on, but those would be pulling you away from the edge.

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I think the terrain's hazardous and if you fell or got stuck there's no one to hear and come help.

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If that's it, maybe you don't have the same physics we do. Somehow.

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You should explain orbital mechanics to Elenwe, she'll soak it up. She helped invent calculus, you know.

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Invent? That's amazing.

In my world the inventor was the same person who did the theory of gravity. They do go really well together.

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In Valinor two people simultaneously invented the concept and I think feuded for a century over who could claim the title, but the feud was very fruitful in terms of expansions of the concept. Both of them were inspired by our Elenwe, though; she came up with adequality, which is a way of finding tangent lines to curves, and which they both separately used in their proofs of the fundamental theorem of calculus. And we've exhausted my knowledge of the subject. You should certainly speak to her.

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I certainly should.

The important subjects already having been exhausted, she exits the tent.

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Do you want to tell my aunt about magic, or should I?

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Hm. Probably I should, just because there's less time for any karma problems to add up than if you do it. Absent that I'd probably say you.

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Okay. He sends a location and a face. 

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Location, face, 

Hello?

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Hey! Lalwen says. The King said I should expect you. Come on in; what do you need?

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I'm here to dispense some exposition, actually. The King said you were a relatively safe person to tell a potentially dangerous secret to. Is that the kind of thing you'd generally want to opt out of?

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My life is the King's, and I trust his judgment. Dangerous to know, or likely to incline me to do dangerous things?

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Where I'm from it would be dangerous to know. I haven't seen much of the kind of thing there's a danger from here. Mostly it's dangerous to tell people or cause them to find out, and there are also some fairly arbitrary behavior rules that you can ignore if you want to but not quite costlessly.

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Have you told people? Have they regretted knowing?

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Only since arriving, and no. The King is one of them; so are Findekáno and Irissë.

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Please go ahead.

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And exposition. The karma part isn't the distorted version Maitimo got, but she may insert some commentary on how if everyone's life belongs to their King this is not the best tradition for magic to pick up on. Everything else is a relatively neutral recap.

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I see what you mean. That's another reason not to hand it out across the ocean, if you hadn't enough of those already. 

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Yeah. Didn't tell Maitimo that part, since I think he might arrange for people to find out from me instead of him—or from you, if you come to learn the song we're pretending to need—and if it does spread I want him to be honestly telling them the more individualist version. Hopefully it won't come up.

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Maitimo would want his people doing it and they'd want it to be people who are fanatically devoted to him, which many people in fact are. So. Yeah, let's avoid that.

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It'll be a few days, or non-days, but are you up for walking into the Feanorian camp to be the designated singer?

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Certainly. I don't bear my brother more than the warranted amount of enmity and they seem to be pretending everything's fine. So why not?

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Excellent.

If you want to become a practitioner, doing it before or after visiting might matter. There's more magic to see there than here, but you might want to lie to them at some point.

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What about?

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No idea, it's just an option that might be more useful open.

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All right. In that case I'm content to wait until afterwards. 

Good of Macalaure. Not composing a song for people he left to die, that's entirely typical of him, but sharing it with them is unusual.

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Is it? Maitimo did say it isn't unusual not to, but I don't really have reliable information on how people treat songs here.

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Singing them for others is common; singing someone else's song is slightly odd; distributing your song for use by others towards a specific end is usually highly formalized and very weird. 

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Weird in a way where they're going beyond the call of what duty would normally be? It was probably composed for the specific end.

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That's even weirder. Kind but out of character.

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Wait, how long does it take to compose a song? And is it partially useful part way through? What Maitimo said is that Macalaure has been composing a song, but they didn't know we were crossing the Ice until recently.

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Takes years, isn't usually useful partway through.

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How long for Macalaure?

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Not years, but not weeks either, not if he wants it to be better than everyone else's and we already have some weather songs.

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I forget how long it was going to be before you could leave, absent the magic. Months? Maybe they thought it'd be done by then, and showing up to learn it this early would be a giveaway.

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Or Maitimo wanted you to believe they were exerting themselves to prevent our deaths and so implied they'd composed a song just for us when in reality he's had it in the works for a while for some other reason. We were going to leave in a few months once we had the practice climbing.

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If there's a lot of call for protection from elements, I guess. Or he doesn't know how soon it'd be needed and it isn't ready... I could have just asked.

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Maitimo's distracting to be around, she says in a reassuring tone.

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Yeah, not really looking forward to being around him again after the last time.

Might keep the secret better not to bring you there, until a reasonable song-composing time at least, if there is that much time.

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The walk across the Ice isn't going to be quick. I do expect that if we showed up in a few days they'd infer our immediate departure, though they might have already. 

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It wouldn't surprise me. I do think they know there's some kind of magic helping, or I'd have asked more about rings for warmth. But they might not, so not days.

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All right. Well, I'll go over when necessary. Thank you. This will all aid us in the war tremendously.

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It should make it theoretically possible to win, if it wasn't already, but no idea how. Step one is get there, I guess.

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That's proved a challenging enough step. Good lord. Findekano told you about Alqualonde?

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I got his version and Artanis'. Didn't ask Maitimo because I don't even know if anything he could say would give information.

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She laughs. Probably not, though I'm curious whether he'd pretend innocence or regret. 

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Regret, I'd guess, just from the number of witnesses. Also because it's more likely to be genuine so more credible to fake if he has to.

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On the one hand, yes. On the other, Feanorians.

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There is that.

 

Thanks for agreeing to collect the song, and let me know if you decide not to delay the awakening.

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I will! Thank you for helping us, and good luck.

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You're very welcome.

 

 

What else has to happen at some point.

Findekáno?

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Yeah?

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If you've settled on what your implement is going to be about, not having a spirit of fire isn't the problem anymore.

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I am using the ring. The meaning I want to associate with it is a betrayal laid aside so a greater evil could be faced together. I don't know what kinds of nuances of meaning one puts into these things but 'laid aside' rather than 'forgiven' or certainly 'forgotten', and ideally as a sort of persistent character thing it'd be 'I will not let grievances override the potential to accomplish goals we share' not 'I will continually work with people who sell me out'. 

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They aren't usually that specific—they can be, mine is—but that just means people might not catch the whole thing at a glance.

Is it likely to keep the same symbolism if Maitimo in particular dies, or if you do eventually forgive him? It is a permanent statement, more so for you than most.

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All of them left us to die, it's not about him specifically. And I am not very worried I will forgive him.

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And if they collectively apologize and make amends while it's still not too late, laying aside the betrayal will still be a thing you did even if not a thing you're doing.

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I was going to say 'have you met them' but I guess now you have. Maitimo, though, who'd at least do that if he benefitted. Most of the others wouldn't even then.

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Macalaure is acting out of character to help us, but that could easily be Maitimo having him do it.

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I think that's likely. And Maitimo'll control the camp well enough to steer you away from everyone who'd spit in your face.

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For having the bad taste not to join their side instead, or something more specific? I've barely insulted them at all where they could hear.

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A lot of them hate Men, the Enemy made you sound bad and my more arrogant cousins lapped it up. And for working with us, and for offending them which is easy to do...

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Oh, if it's just racism that makes sense. It's weird, that just seems so tiny compared to everything else.

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You would think. Sort of disappointing. General casual amorality is one thing, but they seem like they should be above petty dislike of people for their species.

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Well, maybe if one of them shows it I'll be all disappointed instead of offended. Can't imagine they'd be encouraged by that.

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Worth a try. Though Maitimo's not going to let you near anyone he doesn't want you meeting.

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Yeah, I don't expect it to come up.

Anyway, magic? The other major advantage over them, aside of course from ethics. We'll just have to get out of hearing range.

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Let's go.

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It's a trivial flight to Findekáno's demesne, which seems like as fitting of a place as any that's far enough.

"We should make your ring a magic one before making it your implement. Do you have a preference for what aspect of fire it should be? Heat's in short supply, but the appearance of the flame or the destructive potential or even the effect on air. There were a lot of minor elementals in those forges."

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"Do they vary in anything other than type? Are they complex enough to have personalities? And destructive potential sounds useful."

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"They'll vary in power too, but the symbolism's at least as important. These ones definitely aren't people."

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"Destructive potential, then."

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Amber reaches into a pocket and comes out with some small wooden discs—"Pretty decent material for holding a lot of types, at least temporarily"—in various states of burnedness, and selects the most charred one.

"The difference between this and what I usually use them for is that it's expending the elemental to give your ring thematically appropriate properties. So it being nowhere near sentient is pretty important."

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"I hope people don't use sentient others for magic item creation but now I am worried that that's a thing."

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"It's a thing. It's possible to use humans for magic item creation. Usually weapons."

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"How does that work, or should you not tell me?"

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"I don't think it would do any harm.

When someone dies, especially violently, they sometimes leave a ghost. It's not them, just an echo. An echo shaped like them and made entirely of being-bludgeoned-to-death-ness, or however it was they died. Using ghosts is one thing, but the kind of person who wants to use that to make magic items tends to want to make custom ghosts.

And at high levels they can somehow do the same for better items without actually killing the victims, which is possibly worse. I don't know of anyone who does that, but it was once a thing."

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"The Enemy sounds like he'd be a very good practitioner. Let's ensure that does not happen."

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"Well, he wouldn't have any way of learning to do things, or even knowing what people have done before. But, yeah. He doesn't need more power."

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"Those all sound like ideas he'd come up with independently. All right. Implement ritual?"

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"Regular magic item ritual, first. You want to do it or should I? It's mechanically the same as what you've done before, except simplified a bit since the elemental doesn't have to come out afterward."

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"In that case I will do it; I could probably use the practice."

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Setting the burned disc in a circle next to the ring, she releases the spirit. There isn't much to burn out here, so it starts in on the disc. The flames are much larger than should be justifiable; it looks like a campfire perched on a coin. Occasionally some tongues of flame intersect forming shapes reminiscent of claws or scales.

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And he can bind it to the ring.

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"I guess there's nothing around to test its ability to burn things on. Maybe ice?"

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"Should we have brought something?" He sets it down on ice.

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"Probably. But if it melts ice when you want it to it'll burn things when you want it to, and once it's your implement it'll do whatever it already does better."

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"And I'll be wearing it? Can it burn things at range?"

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"I'd be guessing. Just based on how big the elemental was, probably yes if it's close range but you don't need to literally touch things with the hand it's on."

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"Thank you. And how does the implement ritual go?"

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This one she looks up.

The implement ritual is much more straightforward than the demesne one. Like the demesne one, "implement" is an atomic concept and it doesn't take much to get the spirits' attention. Theatrics are still helpful, and stage dressing wouldn't hurt if it were more available.

The object goes inside a magic circle (diagram provided), and the practitioner starts talking. Describes their history with the object, what it means to them, what they plan to use it for, and generally why their implement is this instead of some other thing. There's effectively no set script, only a few set phrases. This is my badge and this is my tool come up at the beginning and end, and the practitioner has to declare their name and state that the implement doesn't belong to anyone else. Mostly it's freeform and subjective. What gets said during the ritual can affect whether a more symbolic implement ends up being seen as what it's made of or as what it's a symbol of.

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"Uh. There are things about the history here that I shouldn't say aloud, but that seem plausibly relevant. Are witnesses important? If so, can you promise not to share this if you don't think I'd agree, and particularly not while you don't know what reactions you'd get?"

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"Witnesses are optional. I can be out of hearing easily enough."

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"Then please do that."

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She does. Walking, not flying. Loose snow solidifies where she steps, and ice provides more traction than it should. Moving is much less inconvenient than it was the last time she set foot on the Ice.

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Great. It means he can speak freely. 

"The Noldor make each other their engagement rings. My brother made his wife hers, and she made him his, though she's not a Noldo and made it clumsily. They exchange them before the wedding, traditionally. This was a risk. Making it, taking it,, wearing it, claiming it now as the most important thing to me. It was a good risk, a risk about telling the universe it was wrong. I would like practitioners on Arda to do a lot of telling the universe it was wrong, and expecting it to someday get better."

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It sure is a good thing there's no one listening. Imagine what the twenty-first century Canadians might think. Fortunately he's alone.

 

In the absence of light, the shadows flicker. The spirits are very insistent that this needs to be ominous and important-looking enough.

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He is not going to ask twenty-first century Canadians what they think, that'd be really pointlessly dangerous! The rest of the speech is what they'd previously discussed about betrayals and collaboration.

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Eventually the universe's considerately provided background winds down. The ring looks exactly like it did before, or is sparkling brighter with magic, depending on which senses it's looked at with. In the latter case, trails of the microscopic ambient spirits are flowing between it and Findekáno.

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He goes to find her. "Hey. Done, I think. You can see what it's about, at a glance?"

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"Not at a glance—it's can be recognized, that's just more of an enchantment thing—but the spirits can."

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"Great. If that's all, we can head in."

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From the air, the demesnes look visibly different from the surrounding area. Warmer and more stable, to a normal eye, and more magical to a practitioner's.

Getting back is as trivial as leaving, it'll take approximately no time.

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They can report the good news that the Ice will be passable to the King. He keeps looking fondly at his ring. Preparations to depart continue.

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Preparations may involve another expedition, looking around for a Feanorianless place to settle and verifying that Angband is where it's supposed to be.

After a few days, Should we try to fly over where the parley isn't? To make sure they actually will stay out, and to see what the Enemy considers an ambush's worth of force.

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Oh, good idea.

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I only know approximately where it'll be. Could ask Maitimo, but that would involve asking Maitimo.

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And you can't do that from here. They're a couple hundred miles from the Feanorian settlement. I could, but.

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Yeah. But.

What I know is that it's a hundred miles north of them, but they picked the place so I assume it isn't one hundred exactly. Think you could spot people from the air if it's that imprecise?

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If they sent significant force, yes. If they sent, like, a single powerful Maia, or if they have good enough intelligence to realize it was called off, no.

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I guess we could get close enough that I could ask. As much as I'd prefer not talking to him until there's a result and I can say 'you'd be dead now.'

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He shudders slightly. Do you think it'll be productive to tell him that? 

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Probably? If his stated reason is his real one, he speculated he might have been Doomed to lose here and listening to me might have helped avoid it.

And if he knows we're looking then I'd kind of have to tell him what we saw, but there isn't a whole lot of reason to hide anything we know about the Enemy anyway.

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Fair enough.

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It's a couple hundred miles detour, but their new maps could use the double check anyway.


When they're almost directly above the Feanorians, descending to slightly higher the minimum unnoticeable distance, 

Maitimo?

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Amber! All well?

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All well.

Quick question, does the Enemy know you're not going to the parley? I was going to see who showed up from his side. Which I'm confident is safe unless they're even more perceptive than Elves by a lot.

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If he has spies in our camp he will know by now that I'm not riding out. I am reasonably certain he does not have spies in our camp.

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Good.

Where should I be looking? My vision can't catch everything that could be summarized as a hundred miles north.

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He sends a mental map of the area. Do be careful.

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I will. Do you know if he does have anything with better senses than you?

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If there are straightforward biological forms with better senses than us I'd expect the Enemy to have people who can use them. There might not be.

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I'm not even sure straightforward biological forms can have senses as good as yours, but I'll leave margin of error. Thanks.

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I shall hope to hear back from you in a few hours. 

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The hundred-mile trip takes longer than usual, for caution's sake.

But the place is right, the time is right, and even if they do get spotted there shouldn't be much of anything that can reach them here.

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Looks like valaraukar. A couple dozen of them.

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Can there be more hidden ones? If so you should look for patters of spirits like the ones around the valaraukar. He's probably not hiding from senses he doesn't know exist.

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I don't think there's more of them. Something else with weird patterns of spirits around it, yes. ...you should ask to meet Huan.

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Who's Huan?

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My cousin's pet dog. He's a Maia. It's a long story. I am curious if that's maybe the other thing down there.

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If the patterns are much more complicated than connections between the people and other ones pointing off toward Angband, I'm not sure what it could be. Which does suggest some kind of Maia, here.

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He bounces the mental image to her. It's technically possible to borrow senses with osanwe, you can actually just try looking through my eyes...

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Does that work in general, or only if you're actively letting me, because that'd be a major secrecy hazard.

 

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Senses are private thoughts by default. It's still a problem because, well, my darling cousin if he does not trust his spies can just ask that they let him look through their eyes. But it can't happen accidentally.

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OK, good. Trying it now.

The world jumps a few feet to the side. ...wow, that's disorienting.

 

It's definitely a person, with that many connections floating around. But it's like them being there is affecting everything else. Nearby spirits going out of their way to interact with the ones around them. Or something like that.

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I am very glad no one's down there planning to parley with it. 

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Especially since whoever it is is invisible. So we've got one nasty surprise everyone saw coming, one presumably nastier one we didn't, and no Silmaril.

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Yep. Want to go be smug at my cousins?

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If it's by telepathy they might be curious about why I'm not coming in person, since they know I have to do that at some point anyway. I'm assuming you don't want to show your face there?

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Maitimo'd know right away that I'm a practitioner, but he almost certainly already does. I don't particularly mind it but I don't know if it's wise.

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He does. And the cover story wouldn't be blown, either; I don't know how permanent songs would let me get here but if it works on one person it could work on two.

I just meant I thought you wanted not to talk to them.

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I don't want to talk to Maitimo; the rest of them are fine.

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All right.

Remember they think we don't know they know Men can mess with songs. So they shouldn't ask how we got here, but if they do it's classified.

 

And they start heading south.

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The Feanorian camp is full of activity.

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Is this a bad time?

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Not unless you are planning to cause me a lot of trouble; are you? We have the metal things you asked for made.

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I am not planning that, no. There's just more going on than there was last time we talked and you didn't seem likely to be one of the less busy people.

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I have more rings of minor magic than you and can coordinate logistics simultaneously with a conversation. We're just preparing in case the Enemy attacks here.

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All right, we're on our way in.

In meaning down, of course. They land technically in visual range but without happening to be looked at, and can then just walk toward the door.

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He goes out to meet them. He does not betray any surprise at seeing them, but his eyes linger on Findekano and several of the guards tense. 

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Whose benefit is he even acting for?

"Hello."

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"It's good to see you both. It should have occurred to me you'd need to borrow some eyes for surveying, Amber. Did you see anything interesting at the sight of the parley?"

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"A couple dozen valaraukar and no Silmaril." And one Maia, unknown capabilities, but that one was only detectable by the extra sense. "It looks like the trap was just the obvious kind."

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"Disappointing. Although I suppose I can rejoice not to have a creative Enemy. I have the casts you requested -" he takes them from someone walking up. "I hope they aid you against our common foe."

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"At least it means we can be even more sure in advance that offers from him that sound too good to be true are."

She accepts the casts. "Thank you. Hopefully these aren't about to be tested at any moment."

Also, I thought about it after leaving and am willing to tell you my actual capabilities since you already know about magic, but only if you don't spread it further. Would you be willing to swear not to except where you think I'd agree?

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"Would you both like to come in? We're short on food but will share what we have, and I'm more confident of the privacy of our words inside the walls."

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"I'll come in, yes." She looks over at Findekáno.

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"My cousins' reputation for hospitality is in sore need of some opportunities to show some," Findekano says to Amber. 

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They have one?

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I mean, in Valinor if you wandered onto their grounds you could expect to be intimidated right back off them, that is in fact a reputation, is it not?

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Ah. That kind of reputation.

She follows the reputedly hospitable Feanorian into his territory.

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And he finds the same building where they spoke last time. This time it has three chairs. He gestures, sits. A Maia? How could you tell?

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She takes one.

That's speculation. It looked different in a way that doesn't match anything I recognize but would guess is associated with powerful beings. From what I've heard there isn't much in the local taxonomy it could be other than orcs or some kind of Maia.

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Nothing else we know of, but we were not expecting you. I can ask Tyelcormo to send Huan over here.

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The valaraukar did not have the same thing going on, so if it's a Maia thing it's not all Maiar.

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Might have sent someone powerful. Thauron's probably out here somewhere.

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Thauron being an unusually important minion?

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Piecing together what we think was going on while the Enemy was pretending to be friendly in Valinor, yes. Lieutenant of the Enemy's, very capable and very powerful. The locals know him by a different name but I think it's the same person. 

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A capable lieutenant might make less sense here than someone in the 'BRUTE STRENGTH' genre. Any plan that wouldn't be spoiled as soon as you see thirty fire monsters probably doesn't need the personal presence of one of his right hand men.

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I don't know what he has beyond Balrogs for brute strength. Perhaps he came personally.

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Whoever it was was hidden. Is Moringotto the type to stay invisible even after the target knows it's an ambush so he can jump out dramatically later, because if so that's hilarious.

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It wouldn't be wildly out of character. "Sadistic toddler who can hold himself in check long enough to be subtle" is more or less my model of him.

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A sadistic toddler with phenomenal cosmic power. Fantastic.

If it was him, or a high-ranking lieutenant, would that imply he might actually have been prepared to negotiate? The valaraukar could do the murdering on their own.

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He might be uncertain of our capabilities after your display a week ago, might have been uncertain that the valaraukar would be enough. Or he was interested in negotiating. It doesn't mean much that he didn't bring the Silmaril, both sides could have sworn to a deal. 

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My ego would like to think it's the first one. Though that would have been an overestimate—well, maybe not anymore.

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I am no matter what could have transpired today far more indebted to you for aiding my allies in safe passage across the ice than I could possibly be for my own life. But thank you for my life as well. We would not have gone had we anticipated the Enemy'd send that.

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Both of those are things that had more than enough reasons for being done.

Oh, on the subject of the Ice, how long is it likely to be before Macalaure has the song for better control of elements? I didn't realize earlier it was such a long process, or for that matter that sharing songs isn't usually done.

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Recent events rather make a mockery of trying to stick with what's ordinarily done. Macalaure will have the song before you leave.

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The King did say he'd rather I not tell you when his people are leaving. Do you mean Macalaure'll be done before the earliest time the departure reasonably could be, or did you get more detailed information from somewhere?

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You're leaving in a few days. It'll be ready by then.

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What.

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I usually don't do this quite as much because I know very well it's obnoxious and disconcerting, but I also usually have more time to work with. The song'll be ready.

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Not that, I mean, I knew he was supposed to be the best but I thought composing takes years normally. 

Well, not just that.

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He's taking absurd safety shortcuts in the drafting process by having Huan help him, so if the song is unexpectedly lethal it'll minorly inconvenience Huan instead of costing us something. It's been unexpectedly lethal two or three times now; there's a reason people take years to compose.

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Oh. Minorly but enough that composers don't normally ask Maiar for help?

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In Valinor it was also socially unacceptable to take shortcuts at things. Artistically contemptlble, you know. We had all the time in the world. 

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The rare and precious commodity of inconvenience.

It is lower priority, because of a bit of information I was up until now planning on withholding so you didn't figure out we were leaving in days, so if he were endangering himself or Huan it might be unnecessary.

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I'll let them know that. 

 

You said you were willing to share more about your capabilities if I swore not to share it. I think that would be useful. I am not going to be able to effectively trade off our risks against yours if I'm guessing blindly on yours. Even if I'm very good blind.

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You'd be willing to swear not to spread knowledge of my capabilities except when you think I'd approve?

Um, I mostly don't object to telling allies in general, as long as they aren't a security risk for some other reason, as long as they already know about magic and you don't arrange for them to figure that out so you can tell them this.

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Good to know, thank you.

If I swear not to share knowledge of your capabilities unless I think you'd approve and someone manages to figure out a way to bring that in conflict with the Silmaril oath then I just collapse in unbearable psychological torment. I can avoid this by thinking you don't approve of that happening to me but it's a bit of a risk to take. 

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How would those even conflict? The Enemy gives some idiots a Silmaril and they keep it, and there is no way to get it back without informing people because...because I'm defending them from you? There are multiple reasons that wouldn't actually be a conflict, but maybe there's something along those lines.

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I cannot think of a way they'd conflict and am pretty sure it'd be fine, and can always frame it carefully enough it's fine, but I want to give it some thought and make sure there's not anything non-obvious coming to mind. 

 

 

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If anything like that did come up, whether I would want you to be able to tell people would depend on whether I'd want you painfully incapacitated. Which I'd like to say is never even if we're enemies, but if the Silmaril oath is forcing you to do things then it might depend on what happens if you tell or if you don't.

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Yes, exactly. So it's not done lightly.Swearing never to tell would be safe: pure negative oaths don't cause psychological torment, they just stop you. Swearing to tell only if I think I'd have your approval - not as much. 

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Would it have the same problem to say only then or if there's no other way to obey the Silmaril oath? I don't really mind giving up the use of torture as a weapon in a situation that probably won't even come up.

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And is less likely to if it couldn't be leveraged to torture me. That obviates the problem entirely. "I swear to share information about your capabilities only if I think you'd approve or there's no other way to obey the other oath I've made. I promise not to bring about conditions where keeping that oath obliges me to share your capabilities as a way of circumventing this; I swear it's my sincere expectation that this situation will never arise."

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Sorry about asking for that. Even if it was called for under the circumstances. And sounding so casual about torturing you, for that matter.

Okay, so the main thing about magic is that the world is– not made of spirits, but at least full of them. In general those are like air molecules, only important in the aggregate, but some are big enough to matter as individuals. I work with relatively simple nature spirits. There are others that are more like animals or people or abstract concepts than natural forces. If I look closely at a wall I can see spirits representing what it's made of, what it's for, what if anything it means to people...of course, I barely recognize any of these. Your forges had a lot of fire elementals as a side effect of burning so long and so hot, so I got everything that looked important captured at least enough to make them output extra heat.The most important elementals I have are a pair of water ones. I use them for applying force without needing anything to push against. Either one could hold up a sphere of water as wide as you are tall. Primarily I use this for flight, and the casts you made are for applying it to valaraukar.

One of the other things spirits do is flow back and forth between people or people and things. You have a connection to basically everyone, plus one running off in a direction that I assume means Silmarils. Watching for a connection that suddenly gets more solid, and breaking it if it does, is how I was confident I could spy on the Enemy safely.

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He outright smiles at 'you have a connection to basically everyone'. There's a lot at stake, you're not going to hurt my feelings. Thank you. Breaking it? What does breaking the connection between two people do?

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It basically means 'you are not thinking about me right this minute.' I'm sure it can be done permanently and comprehensively but I wouldn't know how to do that if I wanted to.

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That I would take as hostile. 

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I think anyone would.

The one I can do is also more hostile than I'd like. I haven't used it against you or your people, but have relied on being able to do it.

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We'll continue not trying to follow you. We're also happy to do other things to provide good conditions for spirit capturing. Was there anything else?

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The Ice is being handled with a repurposed major ritual. A practitioner can claim a place and it becomes theirs. One of the limits is that it can't claim more than your voice can reach, so we used a combination of an amplifying song and the fact that Elves have impossibly good hearing to try for a corridor all the way across. The explanation the host got is that we met a friendly ice Power and that's why the path is warmer and less treacherous. I don't expect anything that large-scale to be repeatable for a couple of reasons, usually it's the size of a room or maybe a house.

And there are more than zero Others around. That's the term for magical people and animals, usually monsters. That's where the danger to you is, by the way; they're more likely to come after you than a randomly chosen uninformed person. So far we've only met one sentient one here, it hated both orcs and Elves and was pretty easy to direct. I don't know how to summon more or force them to follow orders, but if more turn up it is an ability of practitioners to make deals with them.

One thing I've considered doing is looking for any ghosts of orcs—ghosts aren't sentient; they're more like an experience of dying violently, caught on repeat—and using them to make magic weapons. There are a lot of orcs that got killed, there could be a lot of ghosts. But I don't like the idea and it probably wouldn't work except against Elves. Maybe Maiar, almost certainly not orcs.

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The Ice is being handled with a repurposed major ritual. A practitioner can claim a place and it becomes theirs. One of the limits is that it can't claim more than your voice can reach, so we used a combination of an amplifying song and the fact that Elves have impossibly good hearing to try for a corridor all the way across. The explanation the host got is that we met a friendly ice Power and that's why the path is warmer and less treacherous. I don't expect anything that large-scale to be repeatable for a couple of reasons, usually it's the size of a room or maybe a house.

And there are more than zero Others around. That's the term for magical people and animals, usually monsters. That's where the danger to you is, by the way; they're more likely to come after you than a randomly chosen uninformed person. So far we've only met one sentient one here, it hated both orcs and Elves and was pretty easy to direct. I don't know how to summon more or force them to follow orders, but if more turn up it is an ability of practitioners to make deals with them.

One thing I've considered doing is looking for any ghosts of orcs—ghosts aren't sentient; they're more like an experience of dying violently, caught on repeat—and using them to make magic weapons. There are a lot of orcs that got killed, there could be a lot of ghosts. But I don't like the idea and it probably wouldn't work except against Elves. Maybe Maiar, almost certainly not orcs.

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Maybe the Enemy. Orcs are said to hate the Enemy. And we had a lot of people die violently, here, in the fight that met us when we first reached that shore, would that work?

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It might. It'd be, it'd be like seeing them die all over again, maybe feeling what it was like for them to die, and then if it worked there'd be an object that could recall that death to help repeat things that happened. Everything would have to relate back to what they were thinking or feeling or doing at the time.

It's not the nicest kind of magic.

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Everyone here is risking more than their life for this cause.

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I'm not saying I won't do it.

I'd need a list of names, preferably with information on how they died, and personal descriptions wouldn't hurt. I don't know how possible privacy is, but if anyone asks it fits well with the other cover story about me having a weird human religion. And I'd need things to store the ghosts in. Weapons of the kind that killed them are the obvious, they'd just be better at killing people, but it doesn't have to be that. I could maybe do things like a twig where whoever breaks it gets a stab wound.

Of course there's no way to know who left a ghost and who didn't. Most deaths don't, even most violent ones.

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I can give you names and personal descriptions and information; right now?

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Now? Okay. I should do it as close as possible to where a lot of people died. I think it might have to be somewhere that hasn't been built on since then, not sure. That would give up soundproofing but I can do it in English so no one understands.


Findekáno, would you want to join? You don't have the same excuse about a weird religion that I do, but it might work better if they were people you knew. And be uglier for the same reason.

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I would, I think, he says to Amber. He's been sitting there entirely silently. You should ask my cousin if he can write the names and stories down for you, we'll have a hard time remembering them all.

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Nod. (The silence is less weird since they're all telepathic. There could be any number of conversations going on that don't include Maitimo.)

If there are a lot of them—and there'd have to be, since I don't know the success rate beyond 'pretty low'—we'll need it in writing. Or something to write with might be better in my case, since I'm still slow at your alphabet.

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He hands her a pen and starts speaking. He knows all the names and deaths and details, because of course he does. 

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Of course he does.

Subsequently, so do Amber and Findekáno. Or at least enough that it adds up to "a lot." Probably can't realistically be "all."

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I can show you the place, it's just outside the walls.

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How audible is it, should I be assuming everyone hears?

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I can ask Macalaure to throw an imprompt concert but I've asked a lot of him lately.

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We could wait. How often do you fight?

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Hopefully not again. We won. It was twelve days of nonstop fighting, and before we'd even had time to build defenses or homes, and it was awful and pointless and unsatisfying but at the end of it as far as we can tell eight hundred thousand orcs were dead and we had the run of the continent. We're helping the locals as much as we can, now. There might be some of them you should get in touch with.

Permalink Mark Unread

Eight hundred thousand in twelve days.

If it's not urgent on a scale of however often concerts happen, we can just coincide with the next planned one.
Who are the locals, and what are you thinking I could do?

Permalink Mark Unread

The Mithrim tribes are mostly nomadic and were in desperate straits when we arrived; some of them have tentatively expressed interest in our protection, and people will die if my cousin or people acting on his behalf contact them and give enough hint the Noldor are at odds that they stop trusting us. Farther south there are walled cities, competently governed. We broke the siege - we seem to be the only people on this continent with cavalry, I am trying really hard to figure out how to give you some once you cross - and are on good terms, but they were days from losing several cities and they're hungry. 

There's also apparently a well-protected kingdom somewhere east of here, so well protected no one knows where.

I expect they'd be interested in your magic and less inclined than us to leverage it in ways that will rack up a tremendous karma score good or bad.

Permalink Mark Unread

The Noldor are in fact at odds. We could just not mention anything about why. Probably a good idea for the others too.

The only one of those who want something I could give are the hidden one. But if it's that hidden I'm skeptical of how accurate your expectation can be.

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean, location is harder to get from people than anecdotes about the leadership. The King of the hidden kingdom is paranoid, aggressively xenophobic, but well-intentioned and with a tendency to be talked down from his initial judgments which are frequently rash and unwise. Capable politically and adored by his people, though. His wife is a Maia.

Permalink Mark Unread

And from that you get that they'd want magic and play it safe if they got it?

Permalink Mark Unread

Everyone would want magic, and all of the things I'd call errors of judgment on his part are errors in the direction of conservativism: for example, he closed his kingdom's borders first thing in the war, kicked out prisoners of Angband after one snapped and killed some people -

- actually, that's going to be a problem for you and my cousins. Prisoners of Angband apparently come back whole, or as whole as one could hope, and starving and desperate, and then as soon as they're not supervised they murder everyone in sight. Does your magic demand that you extend them hospitality?

Permalink Mark Unread

There's no requirement to invite everyone in, just that you'll be hospitable if you do.

Permalink Mark Unread

I advise you not to. My father and brother are working on a solution but it won't be an immediate one.

Permalink Mark Unread

A solution to whatever the Enemy does?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes. We don't know if it's mindcontrol or if he gets oaths from them but either way.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't know any way I can help with that, but good luck to both of them. Curing oaths sounds near impossible.

Permalink Mark Unread

Can't be done and might not be beneficial; I rather like having the capacity to quickly establish trust. Depending what the oaths are there might be a way to make people under them not dangerous. I'll convey your hopes for the project; I think your skepticism's already shared by everyone working on it.

Permalink Mark Unread

That was something else I meant to ask about. From what you said last time I was here you're the one running the camp, and apparently your father's working on conventionally impossible tasks. Is that any kind of a formal arrangement or a temporary equilibrium?

Permalink Mark Unread

Informal, and how temporary depends a lot on my cousins, them being one of the primary points where my father and I are at odds.

Permalink Mark Unread

Meaning it depends on how much they come to his attention, or is there some specific thing that upsets it? If it's the second one they should probably know what it is.

Permalink Mark Unread

I am less confident than you that they'd prefer to have me running things.

 

That's a lie, Findekano says to her. 

Permalink Mark Unread

It's saying so little that it being true wouldn't mean anything, she says back.


Well, if they do want that, is there anything they'd be likely to do that would risk it changing? Presumably you prefer to have you running things.

Permalink Mark Unread

And you prefer me running things?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes.

Findekáno, what happens if we–I–just tell him about Artanis? He'd have no shortage of incentives not to tell Fëanáro.

Permalink Mark Unread

She was saying that stuff to my uncle's face, it's part of why he left us. Or do you think she's actually serious?

Permalink Mark Unread

I thought so. Negotiating down to not if Maitimo's running the army doesn't seem like the kind of thing someone would do if they were posturing.
But of the two of us I'm more likely to be wrong.

Permalink Mark Unread

I think it's much likelier than not that she'd stop at some point short of going through with it. But I am not certain enough of that to be thrilled. I suppose it might be safer to tell him, if you think there's anything he can do.

Permalink Mark Unread

Like telling us how to avoid his father taking the reins?

 


Yes, because you know how Artanis threatened your father? She got bargained down to saying she wouldn't do it if you're in charge. I believed her.

Permalink Mark Unread

Good of her, he says wryly. I didn't expect the abandonment to make her less murderously inclined.

I cannot guarantee to my cousins the safety of anyone who makes an attempt on my father's life.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, she's well informed of that, but my point is that you see why I'd rather you be as solidly in power as possible.

Permalink Mark Unread

Telling him that my cousins would rather have me in power, or that you would, would be very counterproductive, then. You can tell him that he seems to have delegated reasonably well, or that I seem competent enough at logistical details. If my cousins are hoping he'll pass on the crown - he won't, at least not to me, for the foreseeable future, and I am very restrained in the degree to which I could intervene for them if they do anything stupid.

If Artanis wants me in power badly enough she is welcome to try something and then I will execute her and then my father will probably trust me. 

Permalink Mark Unread

That sounds like it would be a bad message to pass on to someone who already thinks she's being self-sacrificial out of necessity.

The title isn't the important thing. It's possible to have arbitrary amounts of authority without being king. But the more you are, or at least appear to be, running the show, the less likely stupidity is. Assuming I'm not just taking Artanis too seriously in the first place, of course.

Permalink Mark Unread

This doesn't add up. His father's the least trusting person I've ever met but the ships would have done it, and they were on pretty good terms even before that. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe his father's even less trusting than that?

I did hope the magic words comparative advantage might have helped more than this.

Permalink Mark Unread

How many war crimes can one man demand from his children before he decides they are in fact reliable about doing whatever he says?

Permalink Mark Unread

Depending on the man, no upper limit.

And executing an assassin isn't a war crime on Earth, so they might only be up to two by those standards. No, wait, going to a truce while planning to break it is. Never mind.

Permalink Mark Unread

Point is, if he hasn't earned his father's trust by now he is not going to, ever.

Permalink Mark Unread

And he of all people should know that. 

The oath not to tell doesn't extend to preventing people from finding out. And then– but– 

He does have an incentive for us to underestimate how much his father trusts him. Then we end up more willing to tread lightly and follow his suggestions on how not to get his father's attention. Maybe that's part of it?

Permalink Mark Unread

That was the guess that came to mind. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Bit transparent, though, if that was it.

 

...so did you mean to say being ruthless on your father's orders is the kind of thing that earns his trust, right after saying he trusts you less, relative to your brothers? Because there's a certain distinguishing featureI tried to cover for it.

Permalink Mark Unread

I think if he figures out he'll also figure out that he can't go tell his side of the sea, and I have leverage if he does that. 

I am actually a bit surprised he agreed to come.

Permalink Mark Unread

It seems the issue wasn't geographical location.

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I was expecting that one to take a long time to set right when I can't even tell him the truth, but I wasn't expecting him to have much chance to glare at me in the meantime. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, fair point.

Permalink Mark Unread

At least not with witnesses. Without witnesses 'not speaking' would be something he could work with. 

I think my father'll get out of his grief and paranoia eventually and when he does the current balance of power will be more stable.

Permalink Mark Unread

In the meantime, how do we avoid prodding him to be a more active ruler? He can't very well miss the host walking across from the Ice.

Unfortunately.

Permalink Mark Unread

Settle far away from us, don't send people over, convey messages yourself or with someone characterizable as neutral in this mess?

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm not exactly neutral in the mess myself, that's important for karma reasons, but since everyone else has long histories with each other I can see how the perception would be different enough.

Are more neutral people likely to be common?

Permalink Mark Unread

The locals, maybe. What do you mean that not being neutral is important for karma reasons? Or just that accurately representing your allegiances is?

Permalink Mark Unread

I never told the Enemy I'm opposing him. And it wouldn't be worth letting him know I exist. He hasn't done anything against me in particular, which means if I'm otherwise neutral I'd be attacking unprovoked. Taking an existing side should be less bad.

Permalink Mark Unread

Your magic system has really silly priorities. But all right. Are there penalties within it for not following up on a grievance?

Permalink Mark Unread

It has very silly priorities.

No penalties for inaction in general. There can be exceptions, like maybe if the spirits think you owe it to someone else to retaliate against anyone that hurts both of you. Usually you'd just be passing up what it thinks is the right to hurt someone.

Permalink Mark Unread

Fantastic. Well, no one here was under the impression you were neutral even before you showed up with one of Nolofinwe's sons but I think visits from you'll provoke my father less than visits from them. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Right. Lack of history.

Has he been plotting uses for permanent songs recently? That would be a bit of a waste.

Permalink Mark Unread

He was one of the people who got the 'stop, infohazard' explanation to which I ended up having to add the 'there are rules enforced on everyone who knows them' explanation and observe he could get the abilities without being constrained by the rules if he just permitted people who didn't need full freedom of action as badly as he does to be the ones exposed to the infohazard. People have brought me lots of uses for permanent songs, some of which might actually be things you can do - you mentioned crops might be workable?

Permalink Mark Unread

It's doable. Plant growth is a feature of nature as much as rain or lightning. But I haven't done it before and definitely don't have any harvest elementals handy. Your greenhouses probably can't attract them as much as your forges did fire.

Permalink Mark Unread

Doubt it. Are there things we can do to attract them more effectively?

Permalink Mark Unread

Not if you're already trying for as much as you can grow. I might be able to, if I leave something else there to basically waste power and be magic. Spirits tend to go where other ones already are.

Permalink Mark Unread

I would appreciate it tremendously.

Permalink Mark Unread

Just show me where they are.

Permalink Mark Unread

My pleasure. We should discuss anything else we want discussed, though, because after you walk around camp being very disruptive I'll want to go report to the King right away.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't think there was much else. 

The planned reason for stopping by was directions.

Time of Macalaure's next sufficiently distracting concert?

Permalink Mark Unread

Elenya. 

Permalink Mark Unread

All right.

No guarantees on how many ghosts there even are, or that have already faded, or any potential snag I don't know about, but hopefully we'll have some idea then.

Permalink Mark Unread

If you could leave some of the enhanced weapons here if it does work, I would appreciate it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Of course.

I guess Elenya might not be the best time to bring someone to learn the song for control of the elements, since the time was picked for Macalaure being busy. That did get less important anyway now that there's more than one type of magic contributing.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm very relieved to hear it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Greenhouses can have increased amounts of ambient magic. One nontrivially replaceable fire spirit so the cheap-as-dirt ice ones don't freeze everything, with all of them running power through nothing in particular. With luck something relevant might turn up.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thanks for stopping by. As before you can send as much in the way of our regards as they'll tolerate.

Permalink Mark Unread

You're welcome. Until Elenya, then.

Permalink Mark Unread

See you then. 

 

And privately, Findekano -

Findekano sighs. How to phrase it so it's not a lie - Amber, can you tell Maitimo that I said to tell him I swore never to speak to him again? 

Permalink Mark Unread

Permanently? It might be more believable to say just for today; he's the poorly thought-out oath guy here.

Permalink Mark Unread

He knows you can't lie and must have guessed by now I can't lie so if you say that I said to tell him that I think it'll take him long enough to work out that it could still be a lie that I'll get the satisfaction of seeing his face first.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, so you're not aiming to have him believe it?

Permalink Mark Unread

He knows me too well.

Permalink Mark Unread

That's fine, then.

 

Findekáno doesn't want to talk to you. He says to tell you he swore he never would.

Permalink Mark Unread

His expression is suitably interesting. He looks like he's been punched, and then his face goes very still in a mouth-ajar expression of utter agony, and then goes coldly neutral. And then he raises an eyebrow and says he can ask you to tell me the sky is blue if he wants, can't he?

Permalink Mark Unread

The rules are a bit fuzzy. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a practitioner who couldn't say the sky is blue if they tried hard and believed in themselves.

Permalink Mark Unread

See you Elenya.

Permalink Mark Unread

See you then.

 

Maitimo did apparently ensure that his people don't try to watch them leave; getting into the air takes barely any stealth at all.

Permalink Mark Unread

That was interesting.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah. On several counts.

Permalink Mark Unread

What are you thinking of?

Permalink Mark Unread

Right now, partly the fact that I might actually have just run out of things I was trying to hide from him. Partly that they collectively expected the Enemy to send some amount of force other than "enough." And mostly that last bit. I know you said he wasn't important to you, but the converse is obviously not true.

Permalink Mark Unread

They're overconfident. If they won back the whole continent in twelve days it probably fuelled their overconfidence.

 

Maitimo wouldn't ever have spoken to me again if everything had gone as he wanted. I don't think he's as good an actor as that but maybe he is. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe.

Permalink Mark Unread

You don't think so.

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(No.)

I was wondering whether to tell you I'm rapidly running out of plausible deniability on the horribly trivial but culturally insulting accusation thing.

Permalink Mark Unread

I take it it's less so, where you're from.

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By far.
Not even the universe objects, for once, or practitioners would pretend they cared out of self-preservation, but it's just not an insult.

Permalink Mark Unread

This universe disagrees with you. Eru does. Valar do.

Permalink Mark Unread

And everyone acts like they agree out of self preservation and habit, or they do agree because they just trust higher beings?

Permalink Mark Unread

A mix, I think, but if I wouldn't get arrested it's only because my father has the good sense to have noticed that I'm actually indispensable and hard to keep in prison and obviously it's so much worse because it's Maitimo.

So much of my thinking recently has been based on the assumption that he never cared about me and just saw some very convenient strings to pull and if that's not true then I can't fathom why he burned the ships.

Permalink Mark Unread

He was going to march into near-certain death because the math worked out. If whatever possessed them to burn the ships sounded like a good idea otherwise, I could imagine him thinking ruining two more lives wouldn't tip the scales.

Permalink Mark Unread

He is an idiot with no self-preservation instincts and now he doesn't have anyone to talk him down from it anymore. 

Permalink Mark Unread

The boats being burned did turn out pretty badly for him on that front.

I hope he doesn't get himself killed.

Permalink Mark Unread

I hope he doesn't kill other innocent people because the leverage with his father is more important, don't you know...I hate Feanaro for ordering his children to do these things almost as much as I hate him for the crimes themselves.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm with you there. Though I'd object just as much to whatever stops them from getting an order and saying no.

Permalink Mark Unread

Maitimo once explained it to me - and I have no idea how much I can trust him - but what he said was he can't stop his father, there's no precedent for taking power out of the hands of an unworthy king, and if he can't prevent something he'd rather be the author of it, try to do it with as little harm as possible, and not sacrifice all his leverage to keep his father in line for the sake of keeping his hands clean.

But there has to be a point, with that logic, at which you say 'okay, keeping my father in line by obeying him isn't working, what about disobeying him'.

Permalink Mark Unread

This is the kind of problem that gets solved by not giving kings unlimited power. But if everyone here is either king or not king, I can see how keeping them in line would be hard.

Permalink Mark Unread

In Valinor kings didn't have unlimited power. But in the Outer Lands the only check on the powers of a King is what his people will obey and his people trust him too much.

Permalink Mark Unread

Did they just not notice him swearing that oath? Why would they trust him?


Unswerving loyalty is one of the major things wrong with both worlds, it seems.

Permalink Mark Unread

You could ask Maitimo, I'm sure he'd have a really convincing answer for you. Might not be true, would be convincing.

He spins the ring in his hands. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Huh. It might even be safe for me to talk to him, now that he's already figured out all the politics or strategy things we were trying to hide.

I still doubt asking that would help much.

Permalink Mark Unread

Me too. There isn't a good reason, so he'd just parrot you whatever bad reason made you think most sympathetically of him and be most confident of his future not-as-stupid decisions.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah.

At least most of the worst decisions were things he went along with, instead of causing; with Fëanáro having as few political ideas as possible they should be less stupid.

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Yeah.

Trying to save my cousins from themselves is a dangerous trap to get into.

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The one you were in, until the ships.

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For the last several decades. 

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I'm still hoping we can figure out a way to win the war, and they will then be sufficiently saved. Though that might be underestimating their capacity to need saving.

Permalink Mark Unread

Probably. But I don't have to do it anymore. I certainly don't have to do it just because Maitimo still wants me to.

Permalink Mark Unread

Definitely not. Note that winning the war and handing them their stupid oath objects doesn't need any involvement with them past 'you're welcome.'

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah.

 

And then he'll make that face, again, if it hits him that I actually mean it.

Permalink Mark Unread

And at that point, if political advantage isn't why he's confessing his innocence,

That's a hard sentence to speculate on the end of.

Permalink Mark Unread

Anyway. We learned a lot more than that.

Permalink Mark Unread

As did Maitimo. What did you have in mind?

Permalink Mark Unread

His line with us is going to be 'I wish I had the latitude with my father'.

Permalink Mark Unread

In which case emphasizing how little he has isn't just to get us to tread lightly like I thought, it'd also be setting up for saying no to things.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes. And it'll be hard to tell if he legitimately doesn't have the latitude or if he's just not inclined to use it or doesn't want us to have whatever it is.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, we'll know to translate it to "no, reasons unknown" and if your father has spies maybe you can check whether it correlates with how much latitude Maitimo actually has that day.

Permalink Mark Unread

If he has spies he hasn't told me about them. 

Wisely, I guess. 

Permalink Mark Unread

In retrospect.

Or it might make more sense for you to just avoid Maitimo, then this particular problem doesn't come up.

Permalink Mark Unread

He reads you pretty well too. I'm not sure we have anyone short of my father himself who can actually keep secrets from him. Though I'm obviously a particularly open book.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, apparently he could find out any secret that gets put in a room with him, it just happens. I mean since you didn't just get sort-of requested as unofficial ambassador you can just not be in the room where it happens.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm actually guessing they have a way to see across the ocean which they're covering for as Maitimo's ridiculous deductive powers. Makes more sense.

Permalink Mark Unread

I briefly wondered if they had some other source of information, but not for long. No way across. How plausible is seeing that far?

Humans have technology for that, and magic could probably do it.

Permalink Mark Unread

My uncle can do a lot with lenses, and he stole our lenscrafting equipment when he crossed and burned the boats. Or they figured out a way to use the palantiri. I wouldn't have guessed it's possible, but they hid some secret capabilities of the Silmarils, maybe they also hid some secret capabilities of the palantirs.

Permalink Mark Unread

What are the non-secret capabilities?

Permalink Mark Unread

Instantaneous communication, one palantir to another. There are nine. 

Permalink Mark Unread

All the same size? 'We hid the tenth in Nolofinwe's crown' could get them the same effect.

Permalink Mark Unread

Not all the same size, none a size you could hide. That I know of. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean, if any of them are close and they're inclined to use them that way then it would be the smallest that they wouldn't mention. I have no idea how implausible this is relative to them just being able to receive without a transmitter.

Permalink Mark Unread

Or having given one to someone on our side of the sea who's still loyal to them. Or having the ability to enchant other things into transmitters: they give you anything since you first visited them?

Permalink Mark Unread

Good point, I didn't think of that. I might be bugged now in addition to being an open book. There's the weapons, but that was just today.


Wait. No. There's this ring. Supposed to be protection from arrows. I haven't been wearing it publicly in case people recognize it as theirs, but maybe it doesn't need to be worn.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

Might be protection from arrows. Might be a transmitter. Might be both.

 

My fucking cousins.

He doesn't even get anything strategic out of it half the time, you know, he just gets off on having power over people.

Permalink Mark Unread

This being the guy we do want in charge? I mean, comparatively.

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If you have a better suggestion I am all ears. 

Permalink Mark Unread

None at all, especially since it's apparently him or his father.
But I'm seeing why you'd want nothing to do with him, ever.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't want nothing to do with him. I want to want nothing to do with him. ...you should see him sometime when he has reason to turn on the charm.

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I can imagine. Well, probably could. Mostly I'm stopping at "just short of mind control."

Permalink Mark Unread

Well. Ice to cross and a war to win, then we'll worry about whether the de-facto ruler of half the Noldor toys with people for personal amusement enough it outweighs the manifest benefits to having him in power.

Permalink Mark Unread

Ice to cross, right. And a load of distinctly bad news for the King first.

Permalink Mark Unread

I told him we're coming in.

Permalink Mark Unread

Long-distance telepathy sounds so convenient. I've got maybe one kind of passing information at range, and osanwë might be strictly better.

Permalink Mark Unread

Maitimo used it in Tirion to give off this terrifying impression of omnipotence. You'd be negotiating something with him and he'd say 'I'll ask someone to bring us the records,' and as he finished the sentence someone'd walk through the door and say 'Prince Nelyafinwe, the records you asked for'.

Permalink Mark Unread

That would be terrifyingly omnipotent-seeming on Earth, where people aren't telepathic. I would have guessed they'd come to expect it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, unless he had people staged outside the doors with everything he might need, he was anticipating that the conversation'd turn that way long enough in advance to order the relevant material fetched, and by the time anyone got around to demanding it he could snap his fingers for it. No one else ever pulled that off.

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Oh, okay. I am suitably impressed.

Did he just have a lot of false positives where he doesn't tell the fetcher to come in the door, because that would undermine it. A little.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't know. He must have had some occasionally.Never talked about how he did it. A fondness for bragging is not one of his shortcomings. I suppose I should have asked back when I might have been able to get it out of him.

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Oh well. It's not too much of a priority.

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It's not.

Still think he wasn't faking that face?

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Yeah.

I'm sorry. It'd be easier if you could just say it was all a plot from the beginning, but.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

Well, this way means I have more leverage with him.

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Yeah, there's that. I don't like the idea of using it as leverage, but it is admittedly very much what he'd do.

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I think he'd be pleased with me if I tried, actually. Or at least amused with me.

Sigh.

Permalink Mark Unread

Sigh indeed.


They're almost there, they can land and try to inconspicuously not have just fallen out of the sky and find Nolofinwe.

Permalink Mark Unread

Hello again. Who would have attended the ambush?

Permalink Mark Unread

A few dozen valaraukar and an unidentified Maia. Or conceivably Vala. The unidentified one could do invisibility, and that's just about all we know.

Permalink Mark Unread

Was my nephew suitably grateful for his life?

Permalink Mark Unread

He seemed it, so I don't know.


The King can have a summary of the meeting with Maitimo. Cartography results she'll leave for Findekáno; he's the one who has ever seen the places.

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The King independently arrives at the guess that the Feanorians have a way of seeing across the sea and that Maitimo's claimed to have spies last time and implicitly claimed ridiculous deduction powers this time to cover for a technological solution. Cartography results suggest they could march right up to Angband's gates, if they wanted to.  

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If. We need somewhere both worth settling and defensible.

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Farther south of the Feanorians might be the way to go for that, assuming they are trusted not to poison the waters at their source. The King just sighs when this is raised.

Permalink Mark Unread

Magic can help with that, eventually, probably. It'd just take a long time to collect enough spirits and set them to purifying water for a hundred thousand people.

Feanorians would still have to be trusted not to poison the waters yet.

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I don't think they will, he says. If they do, I think that's the point where we do in fact just kill them.

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We'd have to.

Are we talking about the Feanorians, or some Feanorians, because if it's the second one then just anybody could start a war.

Permalink Mark Unread

And if it's the former than Maitimo swears someone to secrecy, has them do it, kills them for it with all apologies to us. I'm not sure the right balance to strike. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Could ask him to swear. He's not going to not swear not to murder us all.

But of course he might not be calling the shots forever.

Permalink Mark Unread

You think he's accurately reporting how much leverage he has with his father, or downplaying it so he can apologize later that he doesn't have the latitude to do things he doesn't want to do.

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm not at all sure. Based on what I've reported here my guess is downplaying, but he could have any number of plots I don't know about.


An oath would at least mean we don't have to distinguish between 'Maitimo did it' and 'some random dissident did it' even if it doesn't rule out orders from someone else.

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I think it's worth asking, if only to make it clear that if anything happens we'll want oaths from everyone in their camp who could conceivably be responsible. Am I right in thinking we wouldn't have to march up and fight them, at this point, we could just kill my brother and nephews from the air?

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Only with either a clear shot. Maybe with a lot of collateral damage instead, depending on how clear it isn't.

Maitimo knows about the flight now, so he knows to consider himself under siege the minute he starts a war.

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He shakes his head. 

I don't think they'll do it, and anywhere else means no mountains between us and the Enemy. Let's tentatively plan for the valley here.

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That puts us near some of the nomadic tribes Maitimo mentioned. I suspect he was exaggerating about the importance of the Noldor looking unified, but if we're in the valley it'll have to come up.

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Alqualonde would indeed be a disaster to come out, but I'm not sure the Enemy won't accordingly see to it that it does.

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Alqualonde, and the fact that we're worrying about them poisoning our water supply.

Though we're going to be conspicuously not the closest of allies; I don't know what he's realistically hoping for on the appearance of unity

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People are going to be curious how we got this bad. The truth will make them not trust the Feanorians. Which maybe they shouldn't. But they also will probably trust us less. Elven civil relations really rarely deteriorate this far.

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And saying that it was partly because of influence from the Enemy isn't likely to make anyone more sympathetic.

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It will scare them further.

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So they'll distrust us and there isn't much we can do about it. I'm a bit confused why Maitimo would think keeping up appearances would help, given that.

 

Permalink Mark Unread

Are you equally confused if you replace 'why Maitimo would think' with 'why Maitimo would claim'?

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Yes, it's not like he'd expect us not to know Alqualondë won't stay secret.

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Maybe he wants a softened version of it which everyone can stick to?

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Then he'd probably have suggested one. Oh well.


What about the hidden kingdom? Running into them is a lot less inevitable, so planning first contact isn't exactly pressing, but we might be able to find them.

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I'm trying to think who'd have the strength and organization to hide a kingdom. Visiting them would be good, though we should assume the Feanorians are somehow getting any information we do and that complicates the benefits of learning more.

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Especially if we try blaming the Feanorians for everything and it works. Then everyone there could either accuse us of spying if we don't tell them about the leak and they find out anyway, or just refuse to tell us anything even if we're up front about it.

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Indeed. We could pretend that we think the leak is just "Maitimo has a gift for reading people", it is not obvious to me how we'd be caught out on that...

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Case in point, I'm not a hundred percent sure it isn't just that.

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That seems the wisest approach, then. We can even describe him for them so we can't be accused of withholding information that would make them not want to trust us.

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The reason I bring it up is, they're probably growing things if anyone is. Somehow. Anyone short of the Enemy.

We might be able to do the same thing I did at the Feanorians' forges.

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That would be tremendously valuable. Yes, let's try to find them.

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Maitimo suggested giving them magic. Probably because the more we spread it around the more likely some of it reaches him. I'd rather not take his advice, but if they have usable plant spirits and it comes to an explanation of what we're doing in exchange for permission to do it....

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Once we have a better sense of their character and priorities we'll be able to make a more informed assessment.

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Yeah. Once we know more than...more than nothing, considering the source.

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He would probably not tell any lies easily demonstrated to be so, Nolofinwe says drily.

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Oh, he didn't. If the king turns out to be otherwise than xenophobic but well intentioned, well, the secondhand anecdotes must have been wrong.

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Nolofinwe shakes his head. It's not a take on the king's character that serves any end of Maitimo's I can think of, but I agree that we should form our own assessment.

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It's the "conservative" part that helps Maitimo if true. But we probably don't need to worry about that kingdom at all until there isn't a visit to the Feanorians on the calendar. Just so they don't immediately find out too much everything.

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I agree. How's the Ice, looking passable?

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Very. Well, relatively speaking.

Walking across it still sounds hard, but more because walking a few hundred miles of anything is hard and not because this particular hundred miles is trying to kill anyone.

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We can definitely manage some walking.

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And we'll have Macalaure's song, too. I'm liking our chances a lot better now.

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As am I. Thank you. Have a restful few days until we leave.

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I'll certainly try.

 

And that sounded like a dismissal, so she takes it as one.

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The camp is still busy. Findekáno departs with her, though he's still speaking with his father. Anything else that ought to be done before we go?

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I don't think so, not on this end. Picking up the song from the Feanorians and trying for ghosts?

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I should not go. But yeah.

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Agreed. I can do it myself, or Irissë can come or we can ask if Lalwen wants to awaken early, we're for once not low on practitioners. 

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Think it was a mistake to go this time? I am not sure if he got the timeline for departure off me.

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I'm not sure how he could have gotten it from either of us. Not a mistake, just that you clearly at least want to want to stay away from there. And this time that's easier.

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Thanks.

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What with one thing and another, three days passed.

(A relatively uneventful trip or two across to the Feanorians, so Lalwen can pick up Macalaure's new control of elements song and Amber and Irissë can talk to ghosts. (There are a few ghosts to be talked to. All of them died while fighting for a thing, against an enemy, and are fairly easy to persuade. Their few lines of mechanized script point exactly where they're wanted. The fact that success is easy doesn't make doing it any easier.) Failing to acquire many plant growth spirits, only netting small fish that would ordinarily be thrown back in.

Being conspicuously not conspicuously absent when not busy being conspiciously absent. Helping with the preparation or just talking with people socially.)

What with one thing and another, three days passed.

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And the host starts their way across the ice. Macalaure's song is powerful. A bit uneven - it creates some patches of unpleasant heat, some of cold-  but powerful.

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The Ice mutters at the mouths of the sea. It's an unusually friendly-sounding mutter, for a collection of grinding noises from ice floe collisions.

 

The unpleasantly temperatured patches smooth themselves over, faster than convection should normally act. Comfort is one of the early things to change in a practitioner's demesne. Followed by convenience. Paths are surer and navigation easier. Even the wind is reliably at their backs.

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They're going to attempt the crossing in a week. 

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That is faster than a human non-hiker could normally manage hundreds plural of miles. There are enough avenues of cheating available that it shouldn't matter; it's not like anyone has a clear idea of how fast Amber should or shouldn't be able to cover ground.

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Nor are they paying much attention; it's still a demanding hike, if not really treacherous.

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As long as everyone's distracted...

Do you know any reason to wait on trying to find the other kingdom? she asks the King.

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No scheduled interactions with my brother soon?

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No, I finally managed to leave their camp without something being an obviously good idea to come right back. Wonder if Maitimo was doing that on purpose.

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He probably was, while he still had things he wanted to learn from you. 

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In which case if he's stopped it might confirm that there is some other source of information.

Anyway, the expedition. Is it likely people would notice a missing Man and a missing royal? There's no telling how long it'd take to find the destination, if it works in one trip at all.

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I am afraid any of us would in fact be missed, on this trip.

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Well, it's not like we're throwing away our shot if we wait a week.

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No. As Elves count time even our cousins only just arrived.

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I meant more that as far as we know next week isn't any better or worse than this week. But that too.

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They cross the ice. They do it safely. There are accidents, but they aren't fatal. It is a brutal and exhausting hike but that's all it is. 

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Unfortunately the Feanorians knew they were coming, so they don't get to see the reaction to a host of surprise Elves marching past them out of nowhere.

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The Feanorians pull their scouts back and work on their settlement. There are some osanwe conversations but none of those are witnessed. 

Amber, Maitimo says, we have people who want to join family in your host. I told them I'd ask what kind of reception they could expect.

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If anyone would rather be in this host than that one they won't be turned away. I can't promise no one will hold the burning against them more than they should, but that's more because it's a large group than because everyone uniformly has a grudge against everyone in your camp. Can I assume the family members want them here as well?

 

And they'll be suspected of being spies, obviously. She notifies the King that Maitimo asked.

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Hmmm. We are also at the moment worse-equipped than they are to feed people. I agree that we shouldn't turn them away, but on principle, not because it seems wise to take them in.

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You did say we wouldn't be turning away defectors, is what I was thinking, this shouldn't be worse than that.

Hopefully we'll be better positioned by the time the supplies run low.

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I agree that we should not turn them away. I am considering whether there are oaths it'd be appropriate to ask of them.

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You do take oaths more seriously than practitioners take statements, so appropriateness might vary. How were the hosts divided in the first place, back when you and presumably most of them thought you'd be coming over together?

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It was Feanáro's people who'd stolen the boats, so they were steering them. It was Maitimo who decided who went on, he worked closely with my son on it and he promised he was trying to minimize political drama and ensure the initial landing had everything needed to defend themselves and hold a position while the boats came back.

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Oh. I was hoping it'd be more or less random, at least approximately enough that anyone on one side could easily have been on the other. But this is about as far from that as possible, so you might have to err on the side of more oaths rather than less.

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Nope, he selected his host for loyalty. Probably even more carefully than I realized he was doing at the time.

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I hope that doesn't mean you make them swear to accept you as King. Loyalty oaths are... well, they shouldn't be.

In a situation like this, practitioners might ask for a statement they're here in good faith, that the claimed reasons for wanting to be here are the primary ones, and what their others are. A statement that they aren't planning to act on behalf of Maitimo or anyone else from that faction, but we wouldn't object if they continue liking the Feanorians better. A statement that they expect to be willing to repeat the same things later. And a promise not to poison the water or equivalent, of course. 

No idea if that sounds extreme or lenient with oaths substituted for inability to lie.

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In Valinor it'd be unacceptable. Here I think it'd be warranted. Loyalty oaths are dangerous and can be incredibly so, we definitely wouldn't employ that.

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I think I have an idea how dangerous they can be. It'd also be ethically sketchy on top of that.

 

When they come, do you think your host will just let them integrate? It's not like any individual coming here could have saved the ships and didn't, but if they were picked for something that looks a lot like being part of a crowd that is in the aggregate OK with it....

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I think it depends a lot on what they do and say, honestly. I can keep people on alert to prevent any violence.

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So definitely an issue they'll be facing, even without violence, and it'll be easier for them if they make sure to every once in a while excoriate people they presumably like for some reason?

Probably unavoidable, but they should be warned in advance.

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That seems reasonable enough. 

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So that gets rephrased more conservatively and sent on to Maitimo.

Any guesses on why he's going through me? He claimed to want me as go-between for appearance of neutrality, or at least for the lack of centuries of sidedness, but that doesn't apply when you're right here in osanwë range.

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Probably because there's a bit of a taboo on just talking directly to people at long range without invitation - there'd have to be, since there's no way to block it and I'd have a hundred people in my head at any time. It could also be that he gets more out of your responses than he'd get from mine.

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And I'm less likely to mind about the taboo, but if it were just that he could have asked me to ask you. It's probably the second thing.

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You must find it baffling that so many people trust and adore and respect him.

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Not at all. He is very good at making what he wants be the obviously best thing to get what the other person wants, so he gets to costlessly be a reasonable person and reliable ally. Usually. And lots of people have ulterior motives. The adoration bit's weirder.

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Has anyone demonstrated to you the use of osanwe to share memories?

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No. Is it the same as sharing senses?

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Same idea, requires more effort on the part of the sender to make sure the memory is chronological and closer-than-typical-of-memories to complete.

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That makes sense.
Is that a suggestion about sending a memory of Maitimo earning adoration?

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If you think being forewarned or better informed will help you in any way, yes.

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I wouldn't expect it to matter that much as compared to just saying it, but it can't hurt. If it's not too much more effort, go ahead.

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And she's standing in a spectacular, breathtaking ballroom somewhere. Light is streaming in through all the walls so the place seems to glow. There are people dancing; there are tables, with people sitting down to eat; there are children darting between everyone's feet.

And there's Maitimo, holding one such child, who he's just snatched out from underfoot of a particularly fast dance. He looks younger, bright-eyed, guileless; he radiates sincerity. He looks straight at her and beams at her and swings the child up into his arms and walks over, a bit unsteadily, settling the child more comfortably in his arms as he does. "Uncle!" he says to her. "I was hoping you'd come; I have been pressed against the wall, declining dances and quaking in terror, all evening. Someone is assuredly going to ask me what I think of your lovely granddaughter and I shall be unable to cover for the fact I haven't met her yet."

And the scene changes -

Maitimo sitting outside a spectacular fountain, explaining chemistry to small children, the granddaughter in question perched on his knee - 

Maitimo in his office in the palace, speaking earnestly to some slightly-terrified woman who'd come in unsure how the family'd manage without her daughter who'd just scored well enough on examinations to get a prestigious apprenticeship - "she can live at my aunt's," he says, "there's a spare room, and I know someone who's been itching to leave the city and would be endlessly grateful for a chance to work at your home..."

Maitimo bringing three trays of food by - "you mentioned to me once that these were your favorites, and for the sake of the country I am going to insist you'll well-nourished while you hammer out this tax plan -"

 

three hundred Years of that, Nolofinwe concludes resignedly.

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Well, as ways to get everyone's loyalty go, that's one of the better ones.

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Isn't it? It's just such a waste - he didn't need to commit any crimes to have a loyal united Noldor at his back, all he had to do was not swear the damned oath...

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Mostly united. Except for one.

And now here we are.

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I would have helped him remove his father from power if he'd asked. There might have been a way to pull it off.

He sighs.

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And if there aren't further messages from Maitimo or the people he was talking on behalf of, they can continue leading the train past the Feanorians.

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Those people will wait until the new host is settled; some talk with their families, but no one talks with Amber. They reach the location they had in mind. It has local inhabitants. The King sends people to talk with them; there's a language barrier, but the tentative agreement is that no one's going to stop them from settling but no one's thrilled by it either. 

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Are they less than thrilled because they already have more neighbors than they like, or because they see it as them getting kicked off their land?

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The latter.

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Of course.

International relations is probably not the area where kings are most likely to listen to non-politicians from unrelated worlds. So when there's a chance to talk to Nolofinwe, Amber leans on the magic angle. She describes how the practitioner side of Toronto is ruled by an incarnation of Conquest, an Other running on the concept of "your stuff is my stuff now." This is a state nobody's very happy with. Canada isn't a very conquest-heavy place; Conquest is in large part powered by the fact that the continent was originally acquired from the natives under less than fair bargaining positions. They might be risking analogous effects here, a few centuries down the line.

And of course the fact that nobody's trying to stop them means very little when the Noldor are more powerful and apparently backed up by other, even better armed Noldor. If there's no equaly good unoccupied space, is there at least some form of rent or sale that the current owners would want?

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Protection from the Enemy? They obviously intend to hold these lands against the Enemy. They're happy to hand out precious gemstones, if the locals like those.

 

Some of the locals like precious gemstones. 

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As currencies go, that one makes sense. (The thoroughness of Valinor's lack of scarcity not having come up, it doesn't sound like precious gemstones are no harder to find across the ocean than glass beads.) Ideally everyone involved in the trade would think they came off better than before. If no feasible quantity of shiny rocks achieves that, maybe some magical services conditional on secrecy? Permanently burning torches are pretty easy in small numbers.

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Sure, they can buy off some locals with permanently burning torches. Does anyone want to inquire what the Feanorians are doing about this? Would that be wise?

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The Feanorians were in an amount of hurry to get here that sacrificed ethics in much worse ways than just occupying people's land. They might not be the best example.

Besides, they had to start by warring for every inch. Protection would have meant more then.

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Oh, no one's planning to copy them, just curious if they're offering compensation and what form it's taking.

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And if they don't have any copiable ideas, this host gets to look more reasonable by comparison to a low bar.

Well, this is probably as good a time as any to let people know Maitimo requested Amber as messenger; it can have happened while the factions were in sight and osanwe range of each other.

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People are amused. Eyebrows are raised. She is warned in earnest about Maitimo's intentions and dishonesty and told that he is probably trying to flatter her.

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She can honestly say that in addition to the stated reason, he probably thinks she'll leak more unintended information than other candidates might. (And that this is plausibly true, so watch where you're pointing those state secrets, anyone who happens to know any.)

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No one shares any state secrets.

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If anyone had, the parenthetical would have become obviously false.


Walking out of line of sight takes longer now that everyone isn't inside all the time for warmth, but flying over the mountain range toward the Feanorians is as easy as it ever was. With some time killed to approximate how long it would take an Elf on foot to trace the way they came from.

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The Feanorian camp has expanded; there are more greenhouses, now, and the walls stretch farther, and there are new fortresses built into the foothills.

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In less than two weeks. Wow.

Once within range of Maitimo, Can I ask a couple questions?

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For sure! Are they settling in okay? Want to come see if the greenhouses attracted anything?

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Might as well give that one more time, it didn't look very encouraging after the first few days.

First question was, should I be asking things in person instead? Apparently osanwe at range is impolite for reasons that should apply to you as much as anyone, and I only just found out about that.

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It makes my life more complicated in exchange for giving you a lot more flexibility and risking secrecy less, it's probably worth it. If you'd rather I can introduce you to someone who you can interrupt from range and who can then come fetch me out of meetings when you want to talk.

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That probably depends on how much more complicated. Bringing someone else in might be an issue if it's ever about something magic and urgent at a time when there's a conspicuous absence of urgent politics going on.

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I have suitably discreet people. You can assume you're always interrupting a few conversations but that I'll ignore you if you're interrupting urgent ones.

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OK, good. I'll plan to take you up on the offer of an introduction next time I'm there in person.

The main question was about the fact that the land we're settling is already occupied. Was yours, and if so did you end up paying anyone to let you use it?

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Yes, it was. Some of the local communities are now allied with us and others have joined our host and pledged themselves to our King, and we're arranging for stronger ties with the allied ones and the others.

Much of the land we took back from orcs.

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I figured there wouldn't be anyone to negotiate with for that part.

Are the allies and the people who joined an exhaustive list, or is there anyone less happy about it? The Mithrim are wishing we weren't here. We're bribing them with jewels and things but it still cuts a little too close to saying there's space next to the lake and why don't you just move back there.

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Allies, people who joined us, people who are too nervous to talk to us, and people who have demands we'll be able to deliver on but not yet.  No one's yet wished we weren't here, we saved their lives and we have shiny magic items for them. That'll change once Alqualonde gets out but we're hoping to delay that as much as we can. 

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Yeah, I gather safety is a much less valuable commodity than it was a few months ago. Good job on that.

The nervous ones are the other group I'm worried about. Since they don't know about Alqualonde, we're backing everything up with implied threats of force from you whether we want to or not. Makes it that much harder to be sure we aren't cheating them.

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I think you've got that the other way around. Elves using violence to get their way is currently unthinkable. They're worried we're arrogant and will be rude and they'll be second-class citizens, they might be worried we're a trick of the Enemy, they are not worried that if they annoy us we'll drag them into camp and get oaths at swordpoint, because Elves don't do that. Accidentally coercing all the neighbors will be more of a risk once Alqualonde's known.

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All of those except the trick of the Enemy part are a lot less bad than they could be. 

Are they second-class citizens? I'm sure they aren't by law, but it doesn't take a formal identification to get the results.

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They're all illiterate and there's a language barrier. We're trying but it's not going to happen overnight. Dare I ask what horrors human history suggests they ought to be fearing? I promise you won't give me any ideas.

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Violence is the big one; better-armed colonizers who want land tend to get it on better terms than otherwise. The site of city I'm from didn't involve any actual forced evictions but did have a lot of questionable agreements. One of the disputes was about whether the land was rented or sold; that debt got paid a few years ago after more than two centuries. The worst-case result is literally forcing people to march out of the good farmland, and not caring how many die on the way.

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Well, we're not doing that and they don't know to be afraid of it.

We showed up planning to offer our aid as allies to local leadership, but we didn't get here in time for that.

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There just...wasn't any leadership left?

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Not here. In the Falas, down south, we were able to do that as we intended. Here, all dead.

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Oh.

That does make it more understandable that people would voluntarily join you. For a regrettable reason.

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Trust me, had it been remotely in our power to get here sooner we'd have done it.

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That I believe. Not for the most flattering of reasons, but still. I guess I can report back that even when people who disliked you when you arrived it wasn't because they thought you were taking their territory. That one's the problem we have; it might take more bribery or at the very least more proof of not being terrible neighbors.

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Or your locals might in fact be internally organized enough to regard themselves as a political unit with territory, which was no longer true up here. 

Want a copy of our phrasebooks and guide to the local language?

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Yes, definitely.

I'm not entirely sure why the language problem would slow down communications, since everyone's telepathic, but it does, so definitely.

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We can't swear over osanwe.

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That could do it. Should I land and pick up the book?

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By all means.

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So a moment later she walks up to the gates.

I guess now that I am here I may as well accept the introduction you mentioned, and check on the greenhouses.

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He meets her at the gates. He's attired like the locals. Thank you. Phrasebooks, and journal articles on the linguistic evolution of Thindarin - that's the local language - and Quenya from a common ancestor. I glared at everyone who thought that was a good use of their time but I can't exactly ban science. How're you doing?

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Very well. The trip across the Ice was much less bad than I expected. I don't think the best trained and equipped humans could ever do that distance in a week on foot, and there weren't any deaths or even serious injuries. It's really gratifying to have been able to get people out of a mess like that. You're entitled to feel the same, probably, for getting Macalaure's help with the song. And for having not put them there in the first place, can go unmentioned.

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I am gladdened beyond words, and not merely because there's marginally less of a crime to our names. I'll pass on to Macalaure that his aid made a difference. You'll take some of the harvest spirits back to them, if there are any?

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Yes, they might need it even more. Not out of supplies yet, but production hasn't gotten started.

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Thank you. 

They reach the greenhouses; he holds the door for her. Glances down at her hands. Confident about arrows?

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Oh.

I took it off originally because I didn't know if someone might recognize it as Feanorian work. Couldn't admit to having been here. It's in reach in case there are arrows with a few seconds' warning.

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I suppose that suffices if you can sense if someone sees you.

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That's only when I'm looking. If it weren't for the fact that I'm not being shot at at any given time, it might work out differently.

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I will try to restrain myself to worrying for people who'd want me worrying for them. Just - we cleared the continent of orcs in a position to be an active military force, clearing a mountain is a nightmare and hasn't been done, and they do have some very good shots.

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Noted. I doubt I'd be the first target very often if they do attack the settlement, and I don't have much reason not to wear it when away from there. She slips it on.

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Anything promising?

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Not really. It's getting some spirits all right, but nothing big and nothing relevant. Right now these greenhouses are a better place for farming warmth and light than food.

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Yeah. Oh well.

 

Orcs are edible, if our cousins need to know.

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They know.

I'm hoping growing food will have worked before it comes to that. Are you still relying on orcs, or is one quarter of the plants here enough?

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We're still relying on orcs, we have a growing population on top of the supply problem. 

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Oh, from the immigration. What were they eating before you arrived?


There had been some mention of food aid to the Feanorians, but that was never officially ruled on. Better not volunteer it now.

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They mostly weren't. Things were pretty dire. There are also some fungi here that local stomachs apparently handle better than ours, we got sick trying them.

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A separate food supply sounds like another hard-to-avoid way of encouraging second-class citizenship, if they're still using those.

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Trust me, it's crossed my mind. I'm working on some military and logistic appointments there are locals suited to, that should help, and Father's suggested we marry them, which - maybe, if it were done carefully -

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If you mean allowing or encouraging intermarriage, and trusting there'll be more than zero people who want to, that's historically a pretty successful way of merging groups. Eventually. There've been cases when it was banned for the opposite reason.

Might not work as well on immortal time scales.

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Yes, that's what I mean - encouraging it in particular by practicing it, if we can find girls we like. I'll tell him your universe provides weak evidence in favor. 

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A lot of the reason it works for humans is because the children are from both demographics. If no one here is planning on having children at all for the foreseeable future, weak is right.

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I'll share that too.

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Hopefully some solution better than political marriages presents itself. It sounds like bartering people even if they can at least stand each other.

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It was common by Cuivienen. Romantic love was a Valinor invention. But - yeah. 'if we happen to find a girl we like' is rather load-bearing in my case and I still do not like the idea.

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Letting it be known that the royal family is considering it might do some of the work whether or not it ends up happening.

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And we can act all appropriately delighted and give extravagant presents to anyone who manages to make it work out without pressuring anyone particularly. 

They have walked through nearly all the greenhouses.

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They could maybe get a few token elementals, but nothing that would noticeably help. It's almost more a question of whether they want to be able to say they made progress than of actually making progress.

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It's all right. We weren't expecting to get anywhere on food in the space of a few weeks. Someday we'll have the Silmarils back, I expect your spirits will be drawn to those like moths. Need anything else while you're here?

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I don't. You said it might be easier on you if I ask someone else if you're botherable?

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It would, do you want an introduction?

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Sure, why not.

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So he waves over a stunningly pretty young woman. Indil, Amber wanted someone she can speak to at range who can then come and get me if needed. Amber, now you have one. If the two of you happen to make fast friends the Nolofinwean camp itself should be in osanwe range, but even if you don't you'll be able to reach me swiftly enough this way.

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Stunningly pretty doesn't really narrow things down, around here.

Hi, Indil. I'm Amber, pleased to meet you.

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Hi! I'm so glad everyone made it across the ice safely, you're amazing. I work on one of the construction crews here first shift and guard towers second shift, and the first one's menial work and the second one boring, so the odds you'd ever interrupt me in the middle of something actually interesting are minimal and you shouldn't hesitate to bother me even with minor stuff. I might put it in the crown prince Nelyafinwe's daily memos instead of taking it straight to him if it's sufficiently minor, though.

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Good to know. He did say he'd pick someone for being discreet, so it's not like I'd have to avoid mentioning the subjects of most of the stuff, but don't be too surprised if some of it is just a guess at urgency level? I'm not entirely sure why I'd be a first choice for unofficial ambassador, but may as well take it seriously.

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Less bad blood, probably? The divisions between the hosts crystallized around eight Years ago and it's just gotten worse since. We're all just guessing at how to do priorities while attempting some combination of a war and an emigration to a lightless continent, it's not as if you're surrounded by people with superior experience there. 

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Judging by how fast this place is growing, your priorities are getting something right. You're doing much better than I would have guessed possible.

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The King's a genius and so are all of the princes. And none of them sleep, it's - it's overwhelming sometimes, but it inspires the best in us. 

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Best as in putting in impossible amounts of work? You mentioned double shifts, I don't know what that comes out to.

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It means we spend about ten times as much time working as not working.

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...I was expecting impossible by human standards but not that impossible. Overwhelming is one thing, can Elves physically handle that?

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The prince Canafinwe's got a song for skipping sleep. It hits you really fucking hard if you do it too many times in a row but this is  - barely - enough rest that we can take it. Not indefinitely, but for another few months. I trust the prince Nelyafinwe not to break us; he cares about us. 

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I'm sure he's trying not to. He might not have any way of knowing what happens to the first person when, let alone who.

 

I'll probably just have to put this all down to species differences. 

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I mean, if no one has a breakdown then we're probably optimizing too strongly for that, wouldn't we be? There's a lot to be done. The King's job is to use us well, not nicely. But no one's had a breakdown yet. What'd happen to humans?

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I'm pretty sure the answer is they can't. Continuously doing nothing but work, on things they don't want to be doing but too important to mess up on, they'd start making mistakes and having accidents and eventually just stop being able to force themselves. Or start sabotaging things or something, there are a lot of different ways things can go wrong.

Or they could unexpectedly die, but I think that takes years.

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You can swear yourself to it if you're having trouble with motivation. I haven't needed to yet, building walls isn't that awful and guard duty's practically restful. 

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That's an awful and clever solution both.

There's unwillingness and then there's actual inability; how much effect do oaths have on the second thing? I kind of doubt it'd get that bad in a month, but obviously haven't tried.

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Oaths can't help with that, but we're not at that point. If someone swears to do something and still cannot make themself do it I expect the prince Canafinwe'll come over and sing them through the rest of the shift and then that'll be the King's cue to give us all a day off. 

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Extreme, but working conditions are nowhere near the biggest problem here.

And I don't know what an emergency schedule looks like in human militaries, so I can't even make a precise analogy.

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I very deeply regret burning the ships and am tremendously glad they're all safe, but - with the whole host we wouldn't be able to pull that off. We work these hours because we trust our King absolutely and as long as the Enemy lives we are happy to be instruments of his war effort. But I don't think we could work these hours with the other host right there, not taking orders from the King and not working anything like we do. Strategically speaking we were better off with them safely back in Valinor.

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I meant the Enemy, but that too.

Does the same thing apply with the other host out of Valinor but not right here?

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It helps. I do sort of expect they'll back off the pace of work so that people don't defect, and that will mean that we are less prepared against the Enemy, but that's prince Nelyafinwe's headache, I just build where I'm told. And if they didn't want to remain in Valinor they had the right to depart, even if it makes the war harder.

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Having more allies against a common Enemy really shouldn't be a net negative. If nothing else there are two hosts. But yeah, it could slow down either or both.

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Twice as many people but plausibly less than half the pace. Most Elves would hear 'we swear oaths to make it through double shifts and sing to skip sleeping' and start muttering about a war crimes trial. What they're asking of us is unprecedented. 

But it's working. The continent is safe, we've got a livable city here for all our people and all the locals who want to join us.

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Do you know if you're typical, in thinking it's worth it? This is not considered a war crime where I'm from, but you did mention defectors so it sounds like there's some difference of opinion on the tradeoffs.

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I'm sure the prince Nelyafinwe has percentages, less sure he'd share them. There have been, what, two dozen defectors? And that mostly because they had people in the other camp. There are a hundred thousand of us. I think I am pretty typical. 

 

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And I'm very impressed with the securing the continent part. Hard to imagine that not being worth it, since it was possible at all.

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Yeah. No question. We saved a lot of lives. But unless some way of getting food wants to present itself, the challenges here are just getting started. The Enemy doesn't think we can hold what we've taken.

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How do you know what he thinks? The food's going to be a problem, but that doesn't give extra information about his opinion.

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Hasn't done anything since the parley. He could at a minimum kill a lot of people, if he just sent the force he took to that here.

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Expecting us to fall apart of our own accord for lack of supplies is one possibility. My first speculation would be that there's some hidden cost, enough to make him think twice before deploying that.

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That's also possible. I wish we knew more.

 

We tried interrogating orcs. It didn't go very productively.

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Because they refused to talk, or what happened?

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They loathed us, you'd think we'd personally murdered their families, which I guess maybe we did. They refused to talk. 

 

King permitted people to try making them, and that got lots of stuff, even verified true, but none of it useful.

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If they've sworn not to tell anything useful, that might be intended to make sure nobody tries making them.

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Yeah, we've all done the same for something of the same reason. It's proof at least that he does have some way of forcing orcs en masse to swear to things.

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Of getting them to, at least; force would be optional. I hope none of you were forced when you did the same.

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Of course not. The camp doesn't even formally have discipline, no one's forced to do anything.

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So the fact of the oaths doesn't necessarily mean force. For what little that's worth.

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I doubt Melkor won the trust of the orcs through hundreds of Years of tireless work on their behalf. But yeah.

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Yeah.

Your oaths, the productivity ones, are those swearing to do the thing or swearing that specific problems like lack of motivation won't be what stops you? I could see it working either way, but the second one is a lot easier to defend against a shocked stare if that comes up.

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With the other host? I mean, they have more comprehensive reasons to consider us awful. People actually mostly swear to find the work interesting and energizing - you can use oaths to modify emotions - but if you said "I swear I'm going to do this tirelessly all shift' you wouldn't get more than a raised eyebrow, it's definitely not frowned upon the way it would be under less extreme circumstances.

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I didn't realize it could do mind control that effectively. Harmless use in this case, but that's. Scary. 

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Hmm? Yeah. You can swear to trust people, you can swear to adopt their ends as your own - no one would, but you could.

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I can imagine. And of course whoever's using the person that way would be the kind of person who uses people that way....

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...if you want to go run and ask the prince I don't think he'll take offense, I can imagine what the other host must say about us...

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Oh, I was thinking something else, not really important here. 

You mean ask if he's had anyone swear that? He could just say no and would have every reason to. And it genuinely isn't something I'd expect of him anyway.

Partly because he wouldn't have to, but that counts.

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He could swear no. What were you thinking?

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A...person, that definitely shouldn't be able to exploit that feature of oaths. No one who's going to get the chance.


The prince could swear, right. Still, even if he wouldn't take offense, I get the sense that people in general might. Better not get in the habit of asking for the easy verification on every question.

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People in general definitely will, it's significantly worse than being asked to swear you don't molest your children or something, coercing mind-controlling oaths...

It'd be hard to exploit that feature of oaths. People know better than to give them. 

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Good.
I see why people take oaths so much more seriously than just being unbreakable would deserve.

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Oh, yeah. They tell us as kids, 'imagine someone says to you 'something really awful just happened, I want to explain, but I need you to swear you'll trust me for ten minutes, just trust me long enough to explain, and imagine you swear that. And then, now that you are under an oath that makes you trust them, they say 'someone's about to come around the corner and when they do I need you to swear to do what I say' and you do that and someone comes around the corner and they say 'swear me eternal servitude' - that's it. 

Oaths are incredibly dangerous. 

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And just swearing that specific things are true doesn't have that problem, but culturally overreacting toward safety is a really good idea.

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Exactly. No associated risk at all, but the taboo is there for good reason. 

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Yeah. But when there's a huge margin of error, setting part of it aside in an emergency makes sense too. I might try and sell the Nolofinweans on the mood-altering oaths, even if they don't use it much at all.

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They use mood-altering songs, which isn't morally much different. One wouldn't think. 

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Less duration, and harder to escalate? Still just a difference of degree.

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Yeah. And it's wise for them to swear not to swear anything under torture. They should get that one.

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Definitely. Maybe I should too, Men don't have your oath thing but the Enemy might not know that....

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Yeah. ...prince Nelyafinwe said you had your own kind of oath thing but I should keep that in confidence?

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He told you that? Yes, please keep that under wraps.
The version humans have is also scary but works differently. What it boils down to is I can't lie and promises are binding, but swearing to mental states wouldn't be self-fulfilling.

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That sounds a lot more sensible. Less useful for working long shifts, but safer.

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The down side is it's less of a literal incapacity and more that it's thoroughly enforced. An oath doesn't directly reduce your available options, it's a promise between people with the world itself as witness. Incapacity would be safer. So people who swear—humans who swear—tend not to do it with absolutes.

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That makes sense. Is there anything I can get you here before you head out?

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I don't think so. It was nice to meet you, I'll see if I can do something about alleviating the boredom once in a while.

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Oh, don't worry on our behalf, we knew what we were signing up for. See you!

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And she's back off toward the Nolofinweans. All told it was much faster than a non-magic human could have managed, but hopefully the delays added up enough to not be suspicious by Elf standards.

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No one seems suspicious when she arrives. What're they up to?

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No useful experience on the intended question. When they arrived there were fewer people to negotiate with, because of the orcs, and there was no one who wished they hadn't arrived, also because of the orcs. At least that's what Maitimo said.

Is that the right name for him, by the way? His people seem to be using titles and names with more syllables, I only figured out who was who from context.

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Of course they would. 

Elves get a name each from their mother and father when they're born, and they choose which one to go by usually when young adults. Maitimo is my cousin's mothername; his fathername is Nelyafinwe. In general you use the one people choose. However, in political contexts, you use the name on the side you inherited the title from - so, for example, my aunt uses her mothername Lalwen most of the time but in any context in which she's operating as a daughter of Finwe she'd use her fathername, Irime. 

So technically in any context in which my cousin's acting as his father's heir, it should be Nelyafinwë. But, ah - 'Nelyafinwë' means 'third Finwë' - that is, there was FinwëFëanáro, my father and his siblings, and then Fëanáro named his firstborn 'Third Finwë'. His name is a claim that my family's not legitimately of the royal house. So we don't use it. Everyone in our host will call him 'Curufinwë's firstborn' if they're not on familiar enough terms to use Maitimo.

The prince thing's just a status cue. People don't use titles when discussing their equals, so if you don't bother with them you're saying you regard yourself as of the same rank, and since you're the only Man no one can really contest that.

 

Maitimo likes protocol and all the associated games, not that he'd admit it - he used to actually blush if I'd use titles with him - so his people will tend to be meticulous about it.

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That makes sense.

Not using his title is one thing, even if it's just because there aren't other humans around. But does this mean I've been going around announcing that I'm on familiar terms with, well, everyone?

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If you've been saying to people 'Findekáno says...' then you're claiming that we know each other well and that you're the equivalent rank among Men, yes. I don't really mind.

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Thanks.
Of course, practically anyone else might, but if so no one's said anything so far.

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I expect you'll get raised eyebrows if you drop titles and then explain that your world doesn't have a monarchy in the first place, but I don't expect it to be exactly problematic.

 

No luck on harvest spirits?

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None. Not enough growing to attract the right kind of Other, probably.

 

They're even worse off for food than we are, at the moment. They're relying on orcs as a food supply.

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That's odd. They had as much in the way of supplies as we did, and didn't have to cross a wasteland.

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I thought the same. Would have expected more, even, since if Maitimo handpicked who was on the boats he probably had a lot of influence on what cargo.

Maybe they ran through it faster. They are working themselves impossibly hard. Or they do have supplies and are just being conservative with rationing, or they lied.

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Or, charitably, they're sharing. If they're on friendly terms with the locals. 

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Pretty sure that one isn't happening. Maybe they shared, past tense, but now even the locals who join them are relying partly on plants the newcomers can't eat.

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And they're working impossibly hard? And locals are still joining them? My cousin must be really exerting himself. Or Macalaure has a mind-control song. 

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They had some join, I don't think many.

Some mind control is actually happening, but it's voluntary and if they have a more sinister kind then naturally no one mentioned it.

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Oh?

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Oaths. They swear—I think it happens often, but it's not systematized or anything—that they'll find their job interesting and energizing. Intensely creepy but also kind of a good idea.

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Eru.

Well, I suppose my cousins have already staked their souls on this war, nothing left to put on the table. You're really not supposed to use oaths like that.

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Yes, a large margin of error around anything genuinely dangerous is a very good idea. 

But this in particular isn't genuinely dangerous even if it does fit under the rule normally.

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If they're swearing to be highly motivated to build walls, no. If they're swearing to be highly motivated to follow orders...

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Only the first version as far as I know. They haven't lost track of why it's dangerous.

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Well, I'm in no position to stop them.

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You'd want to? If they're doing it safely—which I don't trust they always are, but of the ones who do—what's the harm?

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Blurs the lines. Swearing to be very attentive to your shift, fine, Swearing to do it exceptionally well - I'm not certain what happens if your orders then are changed partway through the shift, or if they are attacked...

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I'd think that comes under swearing safely.

Doing it routinely, if it's not identical every time, might increase the risk of an unsafe oath at some point. But that's not true of all possible ways to do this.

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Fair enough. I'll grant it can be done safely. In a host that size it won't always be done safely.

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Yeah. It varies. They could have standardized it on a form like "I swear to be attentive for the length of a shift," but they didn't.

One oath they did all take was not to swear anything because of torture. In case of capture by the Enemy. I'm sure you'll agree with the reasoning on that one.

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Yes, that's probably wise. I will raise it with the King. 

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Probably add not giving information, too, not just oaths. Also maybe it should be no oaths under coercion instead of torture. That way it can include orders.

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We'll discuss wording. The problem with swearing not to give oaths under coercion is - well, imagine that the Enemy manages to orchestrate something that looks like a hostile attack on them by us, and they come over here with weapons drawn and say 'swear you didn't do this or bring it about'...

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Good point. There is probably a way around that but I can see how complicating it might not be worth it.

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The ideal would be not to give information or oaths to the Enemy, and not to give oaths under coercion unless they're time-limited to a year or less, and not to give oaths while under the influence of a mind-altering one.

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Why a year? Coerced oaths can do damage in a year.

Also that phrasing raises the possibility of them showing up with swords asking for an oath and people here saying no, can't swear, come back in three hours when the attentiveness oath wears off. Even if that's unlikely to come up for multiple reasons.

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You are the only reason I am inclined to call it unlikely they'd show up here with swords asking for oaths.  And a year because 'coerced' is broad enough it might cover even necessary things but there's no excuse for not finding a non-coerced way of managing things eventually - could say 'only coerced oath as to the truth of claims', so it can still be used to verify non-involvement in any kind of trouble... we should really sit down and negotiate this with them, so both sides know what they can expect from the other, but I can't see that being a civil negotiating table and anyway, once people sit down to talk Maitimo's won.

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If you settle on a wording you can just tell them what to expect.

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I think we'll do that. Anything else of interest from the visit?

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I think that's everything.

I was really hoping for something more useful on the diplomacy, but can't be helped.

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Maitimo's very helpful when he wants to be. I suppose he does have a lot on his mind.

Maybe it's time to talk to the hidden kingdom.

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Agreed. Either for a covert look at whatever they're using for food production or at least for regular diplomacy.

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So how best to go about finding them?

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Depends on how it's hidden. Maybe there's nothing we can do. Hopefully some combination of an aerial view and a sense they don't know about will work. If not, we could try and figure out some kind of divination magic. Eventually.

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Let's try from the air first. You want to take someone with good eyesight and go have a look?

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Yes, definitely.
It'd have to be you or Irissë or Lalwen, for the best chance at seeing through whatever it is.

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I can't be spared right now, but you're welcome to grab either of them.

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And does either of them want to come look for an extremely isolationist and xenophobic country that hopefully won't mind too much if strangers breach their secrecy?

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Sounds guaranteed to be a great idea. Happy to, though. And we only have Maitimo's word on the isolationist and xenophobic, right?

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For all of this. Though I did get the impression he'd exaggerate toward speaking well of them rather than badly.

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Why would he want us to trust them?

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He suggested we give them magic. He doesn't have anywhere near enough information to know if that's a good idea, but my speculation is he wants us to think it is because it increases the chance of someone from his camp finding out eventually.

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Makes sense. Gosh, if the stakes were lower watching you spar with him would be kind of fun. 

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You can say that, but I keep losing!

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Are you sure? He figured out magic, but isn't going to try to do it, and he gave us a song for the Ice and has apologized profusely for the whole thing, sincerely or no.

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Huh. And he did not in fact sound very credible when saying we should awaken people in the hidden kingdom, and he did decide not to walk into the Enemy's trap...

But he's good enough at ferreting out secrets that I'm a security leak just by virtue of being likely to talk to him in the future. Maybe keeping score is too simplistic.

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We are, like, supposedly allies or something. 

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In the enemy of our enemy sense, at least.

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Maitimo'd slit all our throats to buy him a second's strategic advantage but I don't think he'd do it otherwise. That's something.

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A bit damning with faint praise, but definitely better than the alternative.

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I will even grant him that he might feel briefly sad about it.

She stares out at the forest. Nothing.

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They only have a general direction from Maitimo. It could be too undetectable, or they could just be in the wrong place.

If they're as isolationist as it sounded, there probably won't be conveniently visible connections between them and everyone else. Maybe look for anything that looks brighter, like there are more spirits there? Depending on how they pulled this off in the first place, the fact that they don't know to hide Others might help.

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She tries scanning systemically.

She can notice that her scanning is not going systemically.

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Anything stand out?

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Yeah, if I try to, like, look at each bit of forest, I find my eyes on places they've seen before, I am pretty sure there's something I'm not looking at - and it's giving me a headache - 

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That has to be a clue, but it's nothing anyone else couldn't do if they could fly.

If you try to look at a specific part of the forest that you have seen before, do you still get the headache?

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Nope. There's forest. Denser in spirits that the forest around it - I think - okay, headache if I try to notice that...

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Okay, we should be able to do this by elimination.

She points in a direction, chosen arbitrarily. Do you get the headache if you try to look there?

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Nope.

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Great, it's not that way.

How about there? A slightly different angle. Trivially repeatable, though it might get boring after a few iterations.

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They find it before they even get too bored.

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This seems too easy. Are they that confident the Enemy will never have anything that can fly, or are they just expecting he won't know there's anything to look for?

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Might be mostly meant to protect against orcs? I'm not sure why the Enemy doesn't do more coming out and smashing things in general, I don't know why people aren't prepared against that.

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My money's still on there being some cost we don't know about. We're probably not lucky enough for it to be a weakness we'd notice if he did much smashing.

Maybe the queen here will know something.

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If she's a Maia, bet she will. They know a lot, they just tend to be bad at explaining, and if she spends lots of time around Elves she'll have to be better than average.

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Well, here goes finding out.

They land just outside the boundary and try not to look threatening while walking headacheward.

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And someone pops out of the trees and lands on the ground. They are not armed. The dozen people that have arrived in the trees around them, though, and that would be invisible if Amber and Irisse could not see the connection-lines, are probably armed. 

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Probably. Well, the visible person has got to be the one to talk to.

You want to do the talking, or should I? We don't know how much they'd care about formality, and only one of us is from the relevant royal family.

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Yeah, yeah, good idea. 

 

Hello, she says, I am Irisse Nolofiniel, granddaughter of Finwe; my people are newly arrived here, and heard word of yours. 

 

Hello, says the stranger. The Valar did not tell us to anticipate your arrival.

 

The Valar are grieving the destruction of Valinor and were very distracted. They told us we had their leave to depart. 

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That's definitely a way to put it, yes.

Are you in communication with the Valar?

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They speak sometimes to the Queen. You are not of the Eldar.

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No. My name is Amber, called the first of Men in Arda.

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Cautious nods.

Why are you here?

 

We have come to stop the Enemy, Irisse says. We would like to be an ally to your people in that.

The King and Queen are King and Queen of all Beleriand. Will you acknowledge them as such?

She pauses. I imagine that meeting them and hearing more of their achievements and their rule will inspire the respect we would require to make such a commitment.

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If they're rulers of the whole thing, what's Melkor, an inconvenient rebellion? That would maybe be a bad idea to think out loud.

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How many do you number?

A hundred thousand, Irisse says, and as many allied.

Where are you settling?

At the vale where the Sirion turns south.

There are people there already.

We are trying to get along with them.

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We're here to oppose the Enemy, that gives common ground with a lot of people.

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We were not told to anticipate your coming, says the guard, again, suspiciously.

 

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When we left for this continent we had yet to hear of your presence. Until recently not even we anticipated our coming.

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The King and Queen desire to know your aims here. 

 

We want to stop the Enemy, Irisse says. We are an ally to any foe of his. 

Will you swear to do no violence in Doriath for the duration of your visit here?

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Would you accept a promise of no violence as long as no one does violence against us? I trust this would have exactly the same effect.

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Word it so you cannot get around it by attacking each other, please.

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Of course. "I swear to do no violence to anyone in Doriath for the duration of this visit, except in response to violence against us from someone other than ourselves."

An unnecessary qualifier since one of them would have to attack the other first, but adding it doesn't hurt.

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She echoes it.

And their interlocutor turns around and stalks off into the forest.

 

...I think we're invited in?

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Sounded like.

Any visible reaction from the invisible people if they start stalking too?

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The invisible people follow.

 

Doriath is a lush forest, far too tropical for the local climate, lit by a pervasive golden glow. There are songbirds perched in the trees. The branches meet above to firmly screen out the sky. 

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Light! Actual light! And marginally less thermodynamically improbable trees. Once her eyes adjust to tree- and songbird-seeing capability, it's easily the prettiest sight in a long time.

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It's a long walk. There are pretty valleys, pretty ridges, pretty bubbling brooks, a lake - no people, except the ones following them - and then they emerge in a spacious clearing - the trees still meet overhead, but much higher overhead, so they give the impression of a sky - and there is a bridge across the river and the entrance to a spectacular palace.

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Gardens bright with sinuous rills, forests ancient as the hills, enfolded subtle spots of greenery. Yup, this place is confirmed pretty.

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They are guided into the palace. It's underground, but high-ceilinged, and mostly glowy silver instead of gold. The ground is carpeted with flowers; the pillars are styled in the shape of trees. And now there are people, thousands of them, staring at the two of them with fascination.

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Well. They are multiple degrees of unprecedented.

Why do you think there weren't any people until just now, they're just in the palace all the time or the palace happens to be the closest place anyone lives to the border?

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Or they were told to stay clear of us? Or the border's some kind of militarized zone?

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Yeah, too many possibilities. Could ask but it seems impolite if the answer is that they were scared of us.

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It's a spacious cave palace-city. The throne room is the side of a stadium; the ceiling convincingly imitates a starry sky. 

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Much more impressive than the hurriedly-built structures the Noldor are using. Anyone occupying the throne?

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Two thrones, both occupied. The King looks radiant and the Queen looks frankly inhuman. To the practitioner sight she looks even odder than that.

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She seems to fade into everything around her, as if tied to every speck and splinter of the forest. Instead of straight lines she almost shimmers, with no tension or rigidity to the connections. She and everything around her glow with something just as fundamental as light.

The king looks okay too.

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Hello, she says. Welcome to Doriath.

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Thank you, your Majesty. The word fits a lot better here than it does for most monarchs. I hope our having come to Beleriand and to Doriath will be beneficial to both our people.

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That is our hope as well. Perhaps you can shed some light on how it came to pass in the first place.

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From what I understand, returning across the sea had been a point of debate for some time. When the Enemy darkened Valinor and came here, two hosts of the Eldar followed after. Irissë saw firsthand.

 

They'll probably find out about Alqualonde eventually. We could tell them up front, put the blame where it belongs, avoid sounding defensive...but the Queen might just assume that whatever the Valar did must have been deserved.

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And Findekáno took part, we can't play the innocent host very convincingly. 

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Mistaken host, though, easily. Especially since it has the benefit of being true, as Findekáno himself told it.

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And I'm not totally sure we could get away with an omission that big - they seem suspicious already -

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I was hoping to read that as just generic suspicion of everybody. But we can't get away with it forever, so it's a question of how likely they are to just throw us out right away compared against what happens if they find out later from not us.

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If that's Elwe then they're pretty likely to just throw us out immediately.

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Oh. Of course the unidentified king might also be the person with an unidentified kingdom.

If it is, would that make him untrustworthy from our point of view or would it just mean he hates us? We might be able to outright bargain magic in exchange for the magical supplies we need, if it came to that.

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Hates us, probably not untrustworthy. Do you think that's worth it? We can also try to elide it a bit longer...

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Eliding it is safer if it's him, absolutely. And we can definitely delay until we find out if he's named Elwe.

Delaying for very long is just long-term worse either way, so I'd think saying it early is worth it if he's not the guy who'd instantly class us as evil.

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Agreed.

 

And to Melian and the King who might or might not be Elwe, the first host departed Valinor in boats, but they were caught unawares on the other shore and were not able to send back the ships. Because they'd lit them on fire.

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The second host crossed an ice bridge on foot. I don't know how far your maps extend, we may be able to help fill them in, but the Helcaraxe is an...inadvisable way to get across.

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I am familiar with it, the Queen says. That shows courage but not wisdom.

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Yes. It shows courage and urgency, but neither wisdom nor folly.
The first host has said they were just in time to prevent cities from being overrun and save many lives. The second had as little time.

Also there were angry gods on the side they were leaving.

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They indeed arrived in a timely manner. The kingdoms less well-protected than ours were desperately pressed, and we'd lost many lives in efforts to protect them.

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And it would be strange if they were willing to take risks to fight in a war but not to get to it.

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What risks do you plan to take in the war? What risks are you asking of the local populations you've joined or supplanted?

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The host came over thinking the war was unwinnable by force of arms. The expectation was to eventually die fighting to buy time. Risk may have been to optimistic a word.

We haven't asked anything of the local populations, except that they let us settle part of their land. Some individuals did join a Noldor army.

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...that's an interesting thing to decide to do. I hope the Valar will intercede before it becomes necessary.

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We are all hoping for that.
Your border guard seemed to expect that they would have told you we were coming; could you if you chose contact them and request aid?

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I have done so. They are very distracted and gave no answer, though they communicated enough with me that I could infer the Noldor did not seek or obtain their blessing.

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That's true. They think on a time scale as much faster than Valar as it is slower than Men, and did not wait for a blessing.

Fëanáro and Ñolofinwë of the Noldor could fairly be called more rash than...I'm sorry, I haven't actually heard either of your Majesties' names.

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Melian, she says gravely, in Incarnate tongues.

Elu Thingol, says the King.

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Thank you.

Our host acted differently from what you would have, but nothing that wasn't motivated by trying to stop the dying.

 


'Elu' sounds kind of like 'Elwe.' Does the unfamiliar last name mean we're safe? Or we could just ask, but then we 
really look bad for not telling him right away.

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Could've picked up a title. I think we may have to ask, it'd be a natural question even if we hadn't murdered his family...

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Not murder. I'm likely to stay insistent on that one, even though it's based on law that definitely doesn't apply here.

 

The question might make more sense coming from you. I don't have a non-charged reason to know who's who.

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Elu Thingol? We still sing of you, over the sea.

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He smiles. And I still remember Finwe fondly. He did not come?

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The Enemy killed him.

 

And to Amber, yup, that's Elwe.

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Of course.

 

I'm sorry to have to be the ones to tell you. There is...more than enough ground to consider opposing him to be urgent.

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We need not be persuaded on that front. Who rules the Noldor, then?

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His sons Ñolofinwë and Fëanáro.

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He nods. And it is on their behalf that you sought us out?

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Nolofinwe's, to be more specific (and also more correct), but yes.

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Extend to him our greetings, and our joy to meet any enemy of the Enemy, and our leave to settle in any uninhabited parts of the continent.

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I would be happy to. He'll be pleased to have had favorable communications with the existing kingdom.

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And we are pleased to once again control the whole continent, the orcs having been driven back to Angband. Was that your work?

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In part. It was mostly the Feanorian army; they did get here first.

If Doriath is less besieged now, do you plan to move against the Enemy?

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There is no plausible avenue to success. The Valar are not even possible to kill.

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Is it equally impossible to weaken him and cut him off from his ability to affect the world? We don't need him dead, exactly. If he ends up as a spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows and can't manage to do anything then I'd call that a win.

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An admirable goal. Not one I would expect to be achievable by Elves with swords. Even lots of them. Even valiant ones.

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Everyone involved knows the difficulty. Or the impossibility, depending on who you ask.


If Doriath chooses not to march to war, there may be more ways to oppose the Enemy.

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Yes. We can at least keep this land and our people safe from him.

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I'm glad to know that whatever happens tomorrow there will be someone resisting him.

Today, you can help the Noldor keep the Enemy far from here. If you decide to send food, or weapons, or even songs, it could strengthen their position. You can push back the day when, if the Valar have not intervened, orcs hold Beleriand and Doriath stands alone.

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We would be happy to teach them anything we do not expect to be turned against us when they are captured by the Enemy, which with their recklessness they will be. 

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Understandable. They have started uniformly taking oaths not to reveal anything strategically important. It's an extreme step, but with good reason. Will that change what you expect to have turned against you?

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I am more concerned that weapons we give them and songs we teach them will be levelled against our borders; oaths do not make it harder for an orc to take up a sword.

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Good point.

Even so, assuming every sword falls into the Enemy's hands, it's more benefit to the Noldor now than to the orcs later. If they get defeated and everything Angband can send comes here instead, them having more captured weapons would be bad but almost certainly not so bad as to make the purchased time not worth it.
Or, the Noldor will fight with Elven weapons either way. If Doriath doesn't send them, they will forge their own and
those ones may be captured eventually. The difference is that if their swords come from Doriath, they can leave their forges and instead build their walls that much higher.

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We are not the ones who learned at the knee of the Valar. We do not have forges; we trade for swords with the Dwarves, and the newcomers have leave to do this as well.

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Dwarves?

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The distaste comes through clearly over osanwe, along with a mental image. They know the working of stone and metal.

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Another non-Enemy people, one we didn't know of. That almost has to be better than their absence.

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The Dwarves are a great asset to anyone interested in trading with them, he says a little grudgingly.

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I'm sure the Noldor will find a way to make use of the option. 

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You can meet the ones in Menegroth if you like and if you've learned the local language. Dwarves don't have osanwe.

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No osanwe, as distinct from whatever variety of no osanwe humans have? Huh.

It would be irresponsible of us to say no to that.

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Then we will tell them to expect you. 

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Thank you, your majesty. Do you know if they're inclined to work against the Enemy?

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As far as I can tell they are not altruistically inclined at all and have some self-interest in his destruction and regard the whole thing as a collective action problem.

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That's actually pretty encouraging, if it means they think there are things they could usefully do.

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You are welcome to discuss it with them. They're a very odd people.

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It would be stranger still if everyone were similar enough to seem normal.

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Go with our hopes for future cooperation, Amber first of Men.

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She does. For a realistic definition of "future."


Well, that went about as well as could be expected.

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Powerful, not awful, pretty useless. Maitimo's information was pretty good for him not having known Dwarves existed.

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They did at least agree to send non-weaponizable supplies.

But yeah, I'd say Maitimo was uncannily well informed except that it's par for the course with him. Even if he had a way of spying on us, surely he doesn't have one of spying here?

 



(She feels the ring in her pocket. Off her finger as soon as it was clear that the invisible people weren't about to shoot, and currently wrapped in a sphere of liquid water rushing with tiny but quick currents to provide random noise. Just in case.)

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It's not literally impossible that he can actually read peoples' private thoughts or something, but I'm guessing the palantiri have lots of capabilities my cousins didn't mention. 

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If it were that–and if they could reach through the headache field, I guess–he could easily claim to have heard there were Dwarves the same way he heard about the isolationism. Wouldn't have given anything away. I think he really didn't know. So if it's the palantiri at least Elwe won't have to worry he's being constantly spied on.

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Assuming he didn't have some reason not to mention Dwarves, of course.

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Right. I can't imagine what that would be, but maybe something screamingly obvious will appear when we meet them.

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Yeah. I'm used to guessing Maitimo's aims from whatever results, but there's enough in play I don't think that really works anymore.

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Which in a way, is great! It means there's more going on than whatever Maitimo wants, and it's in principle possible to compete with him. Low bar, but still.


For now, Dwarves?

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Dwarves! And dunno, 'whatever Maitimo wants' was clearly 'an empire in which he wields absolute power' but it'd probably be much nicer than the current situation. 

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Yeah, having it be 'Maitimo and the Enemy, with competing plots' is strictly worse.

...I just realized, the local language probably didn't mean local on a scale of planets. Do you speak any Thindarin?

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No. We've been here, like, three weeks.

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Yeah, me neither. There's the phrase books from the Feanorians, but Findekáno has those.

I guess that means we're filtering everything through someone from Doriath.

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Yeah. Should have thought about that. I'd say it's a shame we don't have the cousins along, but, um, no.

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Yeah, no. Let's just leave it at bad luck that the telepathy isn't perfect, no need to regret that one.

 

 

So, anyone want to volunteer? Judging by how interesting they apparently were earlier they might not even need to ask the king to recommend someone.

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Everyone's lip curls slightly at 'Dwarves' but they get a volunteer easily enough.

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Everyone? Hooray for difference of opinion, or not.

Dwarves!

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It's completely dark. The Elves are fine; Amber's not.

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Do you think it would be impolite to come back with torches?

Probably not a question the Elves of Doriath have had to wonder about, but if everything's extremely flammable then it might be known anyway.

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I don't think they'd mind - can you not have someone see for you? -

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Yes. Yes I can do that.

Humans don't naturally have osanwe, I lost track of what all it can do.

 

Irissë, mind if I borrow your eyes?

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Nah, go ahead. She tosses her the thread in case that makes it easier.

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Walking in third-person view is more disorienting than just looking. Which is fine, worst case it slows them down a bit.

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I can hold your hand or carry you or something. 

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It probably would be faster to be carried, what with humans already being slower.

I'll take the hand. She moves her hand toward the hand that looks like it's attached to her.

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And they find Dwarves. Dwarves have slightly higher body temperature than Elves and a lot of hair.

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Hello! We are emissaries from a king of Elves, newly arrived in Beleriand. We're hoping to make friendly contact with the peoples already here.

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Their interlocutor translates, and then translates back, more Elves! Exactly what the continent needed.

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What, really?

If you're being sarcastic it's getting lost in the medium. Sorry about the not sharing a language, we weren't expecting to find anyone who didn't have osanwe.

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Dwarves are immune to all forms of mind-affecting magic.

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That sounds like a valuable resistance to have. Even if it means not being able to use the telepathy.

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The Enemy meddles with Elves' heads. Can't do that to Dwarves.

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Him too.

Glad to hear there are people safe from him. Well, safer.

We're here to oppose him, so it's always good to find more people who call him enemy.

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He has no friends among Dwarves.

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The rulers of Doriath seemed to think that opposing him was a collective action problem for you, rather than a lack of capability. If that's accurate, our arrival might help resolve it.

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Oh? How so?

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If the problem was getting enough people to march off and fight, that's easy. We are. Instead of equipping and supplying an army and sending some of your population to the war, you can do just the first part. It's much more symmetrical with respect to Dwarves.

I'm sure our king would prefer direct support to indirect. But if the earlier default was neither then us being here at least means you have more options for how to oppose the Enemy.

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What are you offering in exchange for equipment and supplies?

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How much is confining the Enemy's troops to Angband worth to you?

You know we'll be working toward that goal anyway. Hardly going to threaten not to. But the more our capabilities increase the more safety you buy.

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You're Elves, no offense. I have a hard time thinking you'll be much use.

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We collectively are Elves. I'm not.

The orcs were driven back to their fortress in what was it, a week? Then our second army got here.


No offense taken.

 

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It's possible that you're a more capable variant of Elf. If so, one assumes you'd have something to trade.

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More capable or not, I'm sure you're right. Or will be. At present we're occupied with trying to settle and fortify, and we mostly only have what we brought with us.

Surely you don't think aiding us would have no effect on the Enemy. Consider it a form of insurance. You'd be getting an unusually high improvement in safety for a given investment, since at the moment there's still a risk that we might get driven out and everything goes back to the previous normal.

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Still stuck with a collective action problem, since I'm not personally in a position to equip an Elf army and you're not offering selective protection.

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I don't think our presence changes that one. I was hoping it was just the other problem.

For more direct trade, maybe magic songs? It's possible that we have different ones from the Elves here and the composers would be willing to sell.

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Might work. I'll communicate to everyone that you've arrived and what your aims are, at least.

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It might.

We'd probably also be interested in engineering. If your people can design better walls than ours, paying individual architects is probably easier than paying for an army's worth of anything.

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We built this cave system for the Elves.

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And it's beautiful.

Not being an architect myself, I don't know if caverns measureless to man implies you can also do walls and towers girdling round.

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Caves are easier and more defensible. Why are the Elves set on being aboveground?

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That's a good question, actually. Why are we set on being aboveground?

For humans light would be a problem. But Elves can, sunless, see.

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It's a lot less work if there doesn't happen to be a handy natural cave system. We can do belowground if they're offering.

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I don't think it was an offer, just saying it'd be easier and presumably cheaper to find people for that.

 


How to get this through a telepathic relay who probably doesn't have the word....

Do you have a designated thing to exchange in different quantities for arbitrary goods and services?

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Yes, of course. Elves don't, because they're idiots. You do?

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I have the concept. Told it to some of the Elf royalty, but didn't push as hard as I might for them to adopt it. Even if they know they won't get a very advanced economy without it, they might just have different priorities.

What medium do you use?

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Gold, typically.

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The metal itself?

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No, everyone's got different coins, but they're backed by it.

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I was hoping you'd say yes. Could have made a mint.

What kinds of things do you trade for right now?

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Food, mostly. Pearls from Cirdan's people. Access to mines in Elven lands.

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Why pearls?

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There are no Dwarven locations on or near a sea and there's a market for them?

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I mean, why is there a market? If it's because they're pretty, the Elves are very good at pretty.

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We and Elves have different tastes in pretty.

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Understandable. Both look impressive to me; maybe humans are just easily satisfied on that front.

I'll be shocked if there's nothing to trade, even with most of our focus on the war. Irissë, think there's anything we've got? Or can produce starting from zero.

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Do you guys trade in information? We could share stuff we learned in Valinor, chemistry and metallurgy...

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I might be able to add to that. Physics, and what's your technology level like?

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Our forges burn hotter and our weapons are better than those of the Enemy.

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To Irissë, I can probably remember enough Earth technology to speed things along by a lot. At least in general terms. If we manage to reverse engineer better weapons, would it be a problem to depend on the Dwarves for the supply? I don't think Doriath knowing about it would.

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My first impression is that they'd be reliable about delivering on orders. Better than counting on my cousins, at least.

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I guess. It'd be enabling them to steamroll over other kingdoms if they want to, which seems really unlikely but it's not a casual risk to take.

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Tech gap's that big?

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I don't want to underestimate Elves because clearing the continent is really impressive. But if we were up against an actual military from my world, we'd fall apart like butter around a hot knife.

 

What we can reconstruct from stuff I happen to remember is nowhere near that. I'd still bet on it.

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Okay. There's also the complication that my cousins will take tech and run with it, and probably be faster than us at improving on whatever knowledge is out there.

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True. But we know their motives, and as much as they suck if they became omnipotent now it'd be an improvement.

I'd be more worried about the Enemy copying things. He's in a better position to benefit from this than we are.

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...that too. Hadn't even occurred to me, he can't be particularly inventive or orcs wouldn't have swords ten thousand years after he decided to have orcs. But he could improve on what you've got, maybe.

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Maybe no weapons, and nothing we use from where he can see it. That leaves...more than nothing.

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But maybe not stuff to immediately hand the Dwarves.

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Can't hand them examples, but there's stuff to immediately tell them about.

 

Do you have patent laws here, or do we sell blueprints once and let the buyer get as much use as they can before people start copying?

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We have intellectual property laws! You can sell things under conditions for how they can be taught, you can sell ideas and get a share of the proceeds for a decade...

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Oh good, the translator managed to make sense of the osanwe summary.

 

Perfect.

I think the original use for the thing I have in mind was keeping mines from flooding, but it's better known for moving heavy loads when you need that repeated a lot. Is either of those a problem you have?

Permalink Mark Unread

Both.

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How do we go about finding someone to sell the idea to? It's a bit far to handle the whole thing directly.

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You'd normally go to Tumunzahar, that's where our city is. This is more of a trading post.

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We could use an intermediary from here, if we have to, and let them find someone there.

Or going to Tumunzahar directly might work, if it's closer to our kingdom than Doriath is. Where is it?

Permalink Mark Unread

A few hundred miles due east of here.

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The wrong direction. I guess we can see if anyone here wants to go be the inventor.

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You have a very interested audience, certainly. 

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And much less competition than we could get in a population center, but that's probably worth it for the time.

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Everyone who goes to Menegroth is at least selected for tremendous tolerance of other peoples' ways of thinking and explaining, and for something of an adventurous streak. Living among Elves is neither fun nor entirely safe.

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...safe?

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They used to kill us for sport, you know. They have - sort of - apologized. Said that because we don't have osanwe they figured we weren't people. And if you want to blame your problems on a Dwarf, or not pay one...

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That's terrible. You're still willing to work with people who negligently killed your family or friends or even anyone at all?

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It was that or let them all die, they can't make their own weapons. 

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Going out of your way to help them isn't less laudable, even knowing the killings were a mistake.

If weapons weren't a concern, if they were going to be safe no matter what, would you still want to be here?

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...pays pretty well, since no one wants to do it. But probably not.

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This and Alqualondë are implausibly symmetric. What are the odds someone probably other than us could convince Elwe not to abandon people to the Enemy because of negligent homicide?

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I'd suggest Elwe's niece and nephews, but, well, you met Artanis.

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I was thinking someone from Doriath, if anyone stands out as trustworthy before Elwe finds out some other way.

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I can't scan a crowd and point out people as trustworthy, and we're not inviting the guy who can. Maybe if we hang out here for a while.

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Or end up coming back here. There's no hard limit on when he finds out.

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Wouldn't count on having too long. But yeah.

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Yeah. Or even once getting their help isn't an emergency....

Anyway.

 



We're worried about the Enemy copying whatever we do. Are there any known cases of him getting technical knowledge from Dwarves?

Permalink Mark Unread

Sure, we used to trade with orcs, back before he came back.

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But not by force or observation when you didn't want him to?

Also, you do try to keep information from him, right?

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Now? Of course. He's a bad neighbor. As far as I know he hasn't learned anything by spying, but I'm not sure how I'd know. 

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Good. This isn't the most important invention since the wheel but potentially since the forge. It'd be awkward if it fell into the wrong hands.

I'm guessing there isn't a standing list of people interested in handling this kind of thing. There a procedure for picking people?

 

Permalink Mark Unread

I can make it known you're offering and people can bid?

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Would that work without being less vague about what I'm offering?

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You'll earn more if you're more specific, but it should do.

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Good. We can worry about getting as much as possible out of it with the next one; it'd be unfortunate if I accidentally said enough that someone figured it out.

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Fair enough. I'll go make all of this known.

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Thank you.

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What's the secret idea?

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Steam. I'm almost sure I can come up with at least one design for an engine powered by burning things. Might not sound like much, but it was a big deal when it got started on my world.

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Cool.

 

...you might be able to trade Fëanáro and company tech for concessions, too, if that ever seems like a good idea.

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I didn't even think of it until you mentioned offering information just now. Now...aside from the risk of the Enemy finding out, them being more powerful would be a good thing.

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I trust them more than I trust Dwarves to be careful about letting things slip to the Enemy. Not that I don't trust Dwarves, just I know my cousins and incompetence isn't high up on the list of their abundant flaws.

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Steam power in particular can be pretty obvious, especially when you're using it for transportation, but yeah. If they have the resources to use the information, I think we want them to have it.

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At a guess, they'll use it better and faster than you expected. Fëanáro's good at engineering. Terrible at leadership, but.

 

And we've still got magic up our sleeve if they decide to commit or end up oath-forced into more atrocities.

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Magic that Maitimo knows about.

Still, unless there's some downside to giving them blueprints that I'm missing, we could use the boost. Too bad the agricultural machines probably won't help here.

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I can't think of an obvious downside. It's not obvious to me that even if they could they'd storm our camp and force loyalty oaths at advanced-weaponpoint. they don't want our help that badly.

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They think we're slowing them down, but not nearly enough to be worth doing that.

Plus it's not just them having improved tech or not. You're probably right about getting concessions.

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How are we slowing them down, exactly?

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Supposedly, us being here means defecting is a salient option so they have to tone down the culturally objectionable oaths. Usual caveats apply; for all I know it's actually just that they're wasting resources watching us.

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Nah, I find it very realistic that we are acting as some kind of bound on how authoritarian Maitimo can be and how hard he can work his people. Surprised they'd admit to that being a consideration, though.

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I was being what probably sounded like extremely open-minded about the oaths, maybe that's part of it.

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Clever of you. I probably would have freaked out, it's - not dangerous in itself but the mindset that got Fëanáro swearing to kill whoever withholds a Silmaril....

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I wasn't faking. The taboo exists for incredibly good reasons, but we know what those reasons are and can tell when they don't apply.

 

The mindset thing I didn't think of. But it doesn't seem like the same mindset? It's more like "can't get through the day without my coffee" than...whatever that was.

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I think both mindsets are 'if the best avenue to my goals involves invoking incredibly powerful dangerous forces I will just thoughtlessly do that', but okay.

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That part yes. At least, I don't trust they aren't ever doing it thoughtlessly. If it's the powerful dangerous forces that are the problem, just today we've invoked magic, Maiar, and capitalism.

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Any of those do mind-control?

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Well, capitalism has advertising.
Maiar maybe can?

And. Yes. 

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Okay, point taken.

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I just hope when someone slips up it's not badly.

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I don't think Maitimo'd leverage the most catastrophic ways to screw up, I can definitely see him taking advantage of medium-catastrophic ones.

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It's not as dangerous as it possibly could be.

Wonder if all the different local groups have the same background assumptions about oaths as you do. Yours make sense, but they're not the only set that could make sense.

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Good question. Hard to ask without scaring people badly, though.

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I can imagine. Worst-case it'd be like asking practitioners 'have you considered that demon summoning might be the right tool for the job once in a while,' —and suddenly it makes a lot more sense why everyone reacts like they do to using oaths instead of coffee.

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That's a really taboo thing in your world?

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Yup. Pretty much the most powerful magic there is, guaranteed to always be worse on net than not doing it but not necessarily worse for you, and while there may be cases where demons are the best answer you really don't want people approaching every question wondering if this is the one.

So, not the best impression to make.

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That sounds similar to how people think about oaths, except there's no guarantee - worse on net by whose standards, the universes'?

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As usual.

In this case the difference matters less than it might, because the demons are intelligent and can prioritize putting collateral damage where it hurts people.

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Intelligent and, like, universally evil in the Melkor sense where they just like causing suffering?

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Causing destruction, focused on destruction of people for what I'm sure seem to them like good reasons.

I think they come in types and prefer different kinds of destroying things, but it's really not my area. Or anyone's except for the occasional person to stay very far away from.

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Don't tell the cousins.

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It won't come up. I don't know much more about diabolism than that it exists, and that it's the absolute most dangerous thing to try to reinvent.

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Understood. Well, maybe we can tell some people that we're considering swearing not to share information with the Enemy, if they freak out at that it'll at least be informative and they'll have to calm down after a bit.

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People here know that one and didn't, at least that I could see. And they were the ones who asked us for the oath about not serving the Enemy. One data point.

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Yeah. I'd expect them to be less cautious than we were in Valinor, in Valinor it was one of the only really bad ways to hurt yourself...

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And it didn't get less bad but it is trading off against other possible injuries. Doriath seems relatively safe though.

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Yeah, true. Maybe the people in actual danger wouldn't even blink.

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Your cousins probably know this one. They're the ones with the oaths, and some of those people joined them.

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Right, we could ask. And they learned the local language immediately, probably so they could swear to things...

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Maitimo did mention that as the reason why anyone would bother. But that'd work even if it's normal truthfulness oaths.

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Yeah, the taboo is mostly just on mind-altering or priority-altering ones.

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Or maybe somewhere it's oaths about future action, or... actually, what happens if you swear something's true but you turn out to be wrong or just don't know?

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Depends on phrasing, but it's not like with your magic, in general there's an implicit 'to the best of my abilities' on all of our kind of oaths.

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I'm assuming you can't swear you don't know whether the sky's blue on the grounds that it could have changed recently. Does it commit you to your best probability estimate, or whatever's least misleading for the purposes of whoever you're talking to, or some other thing?

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Not 'least misleading' but 'using words in the same spirit they'll be understood', I think. People do not exactly experiment with it. You could swear you don't know for sure whether the sky's blue.

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The failure mode is just that you can't swear, right? Not that you wind up forsworn? If so then someone has probably tested it.

The use I'm picturing is like, swearing you came alone and do not expect your allies followed you, when you specifically told them to roll dice and give themselves a forty percent chance.

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I am pretty sure you could get away with that.

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And I don't know how likely you could go before you do start expecting it, but anyone doing this has probably checked. So I guess we can't necessarily trust oaths about expectation.

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Has anyone made you any?

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No. Well, yes but nothing where they could have set this up. It's just the kind of thing practitioners might say.

The trick with the dice would count as a lie for us, maybe not a dramatic-thunderclap forswearing but false enough to cost, so people don't do it on Earth.

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I'll keep in mind not to get too clever.

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I'm sure wording it slightly differently could be safe, but yeah. Multiple sets of rules to navigate, what fun.

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I have had a hard time with the not lying once or twice. Just because now there are so many secrets to keep.

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There'll probably be more, but at least it'll be a more stable number eventually.

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Aren't you the optimist.

 

The Dwarves have bids to learn about Amber's technology.

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They probably can't prioritize short-term money much; not enough credibility to get good offers there. Anyone stand out as obviously likelier to be successful with the invention, or is it just a case of picking whoever offers the best percentage?

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Given the necessity of a translator and the dark and the species difference it's really hard to pick up who might be successful. Percentages are probably the way to go.

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Well, if someone here had invented the toaster and handled it so well that now toast is what sliced bread is going to be the greatest thing since.... Oh well.
What kind of percentages were on offer?


Amber borrows paper and reconstructs some steam engine designs. They're very outdated ones simplistic enough that they turn up in diagrams of How Steam Engines Work, but that should at least mean that they are how steam engines work. One has the cylinder and crankshaft setup and the other pulls liquids vertically with no interior parts more complex than a ball valve. Descriptions of some potential uses for turning fire into work come free, for obvious reasons.

She'll check for the buyer's benefit that the translator doesn't plan to try to use the verbal part of the description for anything, but now is not the time to test how Doriath feels about oaths.

Permalink Mark Unread

They can get like thirty-five, thirty-eight percent. 

 

The translator has no interest in engineering and says impatiently that only Dwarves and apparently Men do that kind of thing.

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Who needs patent law when you have cultural stereotypes!

Eventually she runs out of half-remembered steam engine related information. It's not as weird as "crash-landed on a new world and new civilization, quick what's the gestational period of an elephant," but still. Not the kind of thing that comes up often.

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The Dwarf is grateful and tells her this was a good use of time. And leaves, so as not to use any more of it.

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So they will eventually have a lot of money in the Dwarves' city, with any luck.

Back in the present, they really should find an excuse to see where Doriath grows its food.

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That's easy; their translator will happily take them. The gardens are the pride and joy of Doriath, and it's easy to see why; a room larger than several football stadiums, terraced and full of trees and bushes, all of them implausibly lush and healthy and growing fruits and nuts Irisse remembers only from the personal gardens of the Valar.


Oh, yeah, there are harvest spirits.

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This is so cheating. Perfect.

Doing the relevant magic shouldn't be hard, doing it discreetly might be. They can always come back later; the gardens are interesting enough in their own right that it shouldn't be suspicious. In the meantime boggling at the impossibility is both the normal response and probably expected.

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Indeed, the locals are flattered, and show them all the tastiest foods.

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Best place on the continent? Probably.

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Certainly the most impressive. Irisse looks vaguely wistful. 

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It's entirely possible that it's second for impressiveness. But its competition is on the maps and labeled NOPE, which hardly counts.


Is this what the rest of your world used to be like?

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Yeah. It sounds snobbish but - Valinor was even prettier. 

 

Elves kind of need it. It's like not realizing you'd been holding your breath.

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Humans don't have that. That must be why our cities are a lot uglier, but I don't think I'd trade.

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I mean, we're coping. We can probably do fifty years of ugly, at need, and by then we'll have built ourselves something pretty. Not like this, you need a Maia for this, but enough. Maybe in the meantime we can get everyone a chance to come here. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I think we'd run out of time before everyone got a chance.
But they said they'd send food, and we can't bring an especially meaningful amount with just us—we can offer to send a caravan instead of asking anyone to leave Doriath, and then prioritize people who need to see this the most.

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Probably worth it, yeah. 

 

This is among the reasons everyone wants the Silmarils, they make everything around them the prettiest thing you've ever seen.

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And good for them, but they also make kingdoms impenetrable.


That'd be stupendously valuable even on Earth. If beauty is mandatory here, I can see why they're so capitalized.

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If only my uncle had stuck to jewelry instead of going in for magic swords and armor.

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...would that have prevented all this, because otherwise I'm very glad magic weapons and armor exist.

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Would have prevented Alqualonde, and the Doom, and he might not have had the impetus for the oath. I guess we would still have eventually needed them.

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Maybe we should figure out what tech would benefit the most from being enchanted. I'd be surprised if the only thing your cousins' magic can improve is ability to non-reciprocally stick sharp objects into people.

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It's not just their magic, we have perfectly capable metalsmiths. Fëanáro's a genius and most people with a real gift and the ambition studied under him and got themselves a spot on the boats, but we can certainly do it too. You can do, basically, anything you can describe carefully enough, but the level of description is crazy careful.

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Theirs because, since there probably isn't any existing enchantment to make railroads or whatever less loud and obvious to the Enemy, they'd be the ones inventing it.

Anything? If it's about what can be described, that sounds like the limit would just be simplicity.

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Yeah but you'd be astonished at what kinds of things are complicated.

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Probably. Is it complicated to make objects spin in circles?

If they can do that against resistance, it could be a lot more useful than it sounds.

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Continuous motion's complicated, but not hopelessly so - it'd more be important to do exactly right, rather than hard to specify in the first place...

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I'll bring it up when I let them pick my brain about technology. Maybe it'll turn out to be a good use of magic and machinery resources.

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Yeah. There's probably a clever way to do it. Motion's hard, anything that changes over time is, but if you were clever about it...

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How about making things not change when they otherwise would? I bet there's some mileage to get out of that.

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That'd be easier. Easiest is ambient area-effects, if that helps, like 'glow' or 'be very lightweight'.

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And then it...produces a set amount of light, or does it keep the area at a set level of brightness?

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Produces a set amount of light, doing the latter'd require sensing things about the world and sensing things about the world is one of the things that turns out to be absurdly hard.

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Nod. 

If it can produce heat, to water-boiling temperatures, we might be talking about fuelless engines. Especially if it can also cool things down.

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Oh, yeah, heat's pretty easy.

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But not so easy that the forges don't run on fire?

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It'd melt itself.

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I guess if there are limits on what it can be put on.

And now I really hope electric charge turns out to be as simple as light or weight.

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Can't answer that for you but someone who does that kind of work could probably tell you without even designing an item.

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We'll see. If not that, there'll be something else. Hopefully something that'll help in a sword-based war.

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What are melee weapons like back home?

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I don't know of anything deadlier than your swords, for that. It sort of stopped being a concern once the most effective weapons were ranged.

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Guess that makes sense.  Makes the forcing-oaths-at-magicweapon-point scenario less likely, too!

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If that's an actual risk, I could ask for an oath about giving us at least half of whatever Earth weapons they make. Maitimo was serious about wanting to make sure sharing strategically relevant information never hurts.

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You can ask, yeah. What makes you think he was serious? That was the same sentence in which he claimed to have spies that we now think was actually a claim made to cover for some other method of spying they've got.

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He swore. I'm not saying I'm sure he's serious about wanting it now.

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Huh, okay. 

 

Anything else to do here, beyond find a time to come back and discreetly snare some of these guys?

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No. Just looking like we're enjoying it and, separately, actually doing that.

Hopefully diplomatic visits to Elf kingdoms aren't traditionally too short for a chance to come up, but really how likely is that.

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They are shown to lovely guest rooms, and shown how to trace their steps back here by the flowers on the floor. They are offered spectacular dresses and quite a lot of wine.

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When in Rome, dress spectacularly Romanly.

But judging by the one-sidedness of the physical differences so far, it might turn out to be a really bad idea to drink wine in Elf quantities. (Hopefully that doesn't sound like an excuse to impolitely refuse most of the offer.)

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She'll drink for both of them! They don't seem to find Amber terribly impolite. Drunk she is slightly more giggling and significantly more inclined to share violent revenge fantasies aimed at Tyelcormo, though only with Amber.

 

And then there's a concert and it's lovely.

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Well, they're Elves. It might be an exaggeration but not an unfair one to say there has yet to be a song that doesn't put Earth music to shame.

And it's also long, and well attended. After there have been people filtering in and out,

You up to using the distraction?

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Yeah, let's go.

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They head up to the nearly empty gardens and find a secluded enough location to perform their miracles of rare device.

I've never used plant growth elementals before, but I'm pretty sure they're the ones that look like this. Or, since we couldn't throw a brick without hitting one here, we could throw a brick.

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We are going to have so much food!

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And then we won't have any ongoing emergencies at all! We can figure out solving the Enemy!



There's no shortage of unmelting ice; they did manufacture far more of that than got turned into arrowheads before the Feanorians superseded it.
And this trip has a use for the extra; ice and freezing are as good an opposite as any for plants germinating and bearing fruit. So whenever they spot one of what they're looking for they can weave a circle round it thrice and get it thoroughly captured.

 

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And after a while, wait, stop, Melian's coming.

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What, how can you tell it's her? 

Amber looks, and there's no telltale channel pointing to anyone at all, Melian or otherwise. Just the usual high concentration of ambient spirits and connection to the forest that links them to their trails of flowers.

And then Melian walks into visual range and looks right at them and it's the tie between them and Doriath that flares brighter.

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Heard her. Don't know how - 

 

- oh. 

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Explain what you are doing.

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Um.

We were admiring your gardens, and hoping to imitate them when we return.

How much did she see? The levitating shards of ice? Maybe there would have been some detectable change to the trees? Did Melian just find out they aren't merely what they look like.

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This food supplies hundreds of thousands of people. I require a complete answer.

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Can we pass this off as magic your cousins invented? If reacting to surroundings isn't totally impossible, maybe it's a way to copy things? We do still have the universe on our side for this, assuming the weirdness censor even works on Maiar.

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Yeah, possibly? Probably?

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I don't have a better idea...

 

We can swear that if this fed hundreds of thousands before it will still feed them after. If that's not enough, the complete answer was supposed to be confidential. Will you agree to keep what we tell you a secret?

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I would like you to swear that you did nothing to alter any of the food, and that none who eat here would be harmed. Supposed to be confidential in what sense?

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"I swear that we did not alter the food," she speaks and sends, "and that no one would be harmed by eating here because of us."

It's confidential because it bears on a capability that few know exists. You in particular might be as safe to tell about new enchantments as anyone, with no risk of the Enemy capturing you, but telling people isn't just up to our judgment.

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Whose judgment is relevant here? Are these powers the Valar granted you?

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Unlike Irissë, I never met the Valar. They granted this only in the sense that they are responsible for causing or allowing everything in Arda.

The ones who excel at the innovations in song and enchantment are Fëanáro and his followers, but we answer to Nolofinwe.

Permalink Mark Unread

And you do - whatever it is that you were doing - on his orders? He ordered you to do it secretly?

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He didn't order secrecy, but we did promise.

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Then it would be wise not to do it when guests of my people.

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The secrecy is, less important than the success. If we give you more of an explanation, or show you, will you refrain from telling others?

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That is not a commitment I can make without more information.

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Not to tell anyone you don't have to, then.
We aren't affecting your gardens, so I'm confident that will be no one, and that if you think someone does need to know you won't tell anyone indiscreet.

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I will certainly make the commitment that if there are reasons for secrecy I will take them very close to heart.

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We have precious few capabilities the Enemy doesn't know about. The more people know, the more likely he is to find out through interrogation or spies. Your realm is safe enough that those apply less than they might elsewhere, but if not for that it would be more of a risk even to tell you.

Deep breath.

The Noldor are skilled at creating enchanted objects. Especially the Feanorians. I have a ring that deflects arrows, for instance.
We can, under some circumstances, copy attributes of environments and duplicate them elsewhere. In much the same way that we imitated heat from the first host's forges to help the second cross the Helcaraxe without freezing, we can use these pieces of ice to duplicate the fertile ground
 of your gardens and, when we return, encourage the plants in our greenhouses to grow.

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And this ability is not known to the Enemy already?

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It's not. Not unless his information sources are much better than we know.

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How is that so, if he resided with them in Valinor?

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They didn't invent it in Valinor.

It's a recent addition, and we hope to come up with more abilities he doesn't know about.

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Doriath is entirely safe from the Enemy and I particularly am. If you are going to copy elements of my domain for the benefit of strangers, there is no safety interest served in keeping this from me.

Permalink Mark Unread

Having seen your domain, I expect you're right.
But the Enemy is enough of a threat that it is more likely for people to seem safe than to be so, and at any rate we had not seen your realm when deciding secrecy would be first choice.

Permalink Mark Unread

You had seen enough to make a better informed choice before copying, though.

Permalink Mark Unread

To be honest, Your Majesty, I'm not sure we had. Doriath is hidden and secret but we found it, and of course we haven't seen your more forcible methods of defending it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, you have afforded yourself the opportunity to become familiar with them, at least until we decide whether we are comfortable with the Noldor having copies of our gardens.

Permalink Mark Unread

Completely non-fake surprise.

What would be the objection? It is the productivity being imitated, not the artistic merit.

Permalink Mark Unread

You didn't ask our leave, you concealed much of their capabilities and could be concealing much more, it could fall into Enemy hands, the Enemy could have a means to use it to disrupt the safety of Doriath, there could be possibilities that do not immediately rise to mind because I have been given incomplete information both about your host and about this magic....

Permalink Mark Unread

If it fell into Enemy hands it would be the same kind of catastrophe as anything else falling into Enemy hands, but could not lead back to Doriath. It would be like seeing that the people crossing the Ice weren't freezing and trying to learn anything about whichever fires they had drawn from.

Failing to ask your leave is entirely true. On that front, I apologize for giving offense.

Permalink Mark Unread

I am not confident you are sufficiently informed about the capabilities of the Valar to confidently make such claims.

Permalink Mark Unread

She kind of has a point. We do know about a particular capability they don't have, but can't admit that without mentioning magic.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah. On the other hand I think we've just been arrested;  are we going to need to reveal magic anyway to leave?

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe. Rising to probably if we want to leave with more elementals than we've already got and definitely if we want to do that without being enemies.

Permalink Mark Unread

We can ask for some time to think. She's a Maia, she can't mind that.

Permalink Mark Unread

Now if we don't say something that looks like a bigger secret, we look even more evasive.

 

Asking anyway.

Permalink Mark Unread

I would like your commitment that you will not do this again until we've discussed matters further, and not use power collected in Doriath until the nature of it has been better communicated.

Permalink Mark Unread

Agreed.

 

We can still cut losses and run with what we've got, if we have to, we'd just have to come up with a safe partial answer to communicate first. If we do end up telling her...well, at least that keeps the spirit of the deal as well as the letter.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah.

 

They are escorted back to their guest rooms. A few minutes after that, the guest rooms stop having a door.

Permalink Mark Unread

You were right about the arrest.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, that won't last longer than a week, so I'm not too bothered. By that specifically. Ugh. It should have occurred to me - in Valinor the Valar'd notice if you did this, we just don't usually have Maiar with such a big domain...

Permalink Mark Unread

Wait, how would they notice? Are you saying they can see spirits in their domains? If so then any Maia with a domain could know magic is a thing. And any Vala.

Permalink Mark Unread

No, not that, but at will they can see what we're up to...

Permalink Mark Unread

Good. Could be worse.

 

What I was thinking is, Maitimo did turn out to be right about them always erring on the side of being conservative.

Permalink Mark Unread

We should be sure to compliment him on his excellent people-skills-at-several-degrees-of-remove. Ugh. Is imprisonment one of those things where Elves have better endurance than humans because if so we should communicate with them soon...

Permalink Mark Unread

Huh? No, it's the same as being in the room and able to leave, except without being able to leave. It could get really boring in a week but not dangerous.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, good.

Permalink Mark Unread

Plus we'd have decided on something before then anyway.


I think if we do explain magic, Melian will pay attention to the karma thing and not spread it. What I'm curious about is, what happens if we
give her magic.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, good question. I don't think she'd do anything dramatic with it - I'm almost optimistic she'd just make Doriath more - Doriath....

Permalink Mark Unread

I honestly think she might be able to make Doriath impregnable against the Enemy and everything he has to throw at it.

Maybe that'll earn us some good will.

Permalink Mark Unread

And it would be, you know, good in its own right.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yep.

She could also make it actually hidden if they decide to keep us out. Still worth it. 

The other problem is we can't count on her not telling the Valar.

Permalink Mark Unread

...point. Uh, the Valar might do really weird stuff...

Permalink Mark Unread

Weird how?

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If they could expect the universe into working differently, they're really - well, they're a lot more powerful than Melian and you saw her - and they have strong expectations about right and wrong, really strong, though at least theirs are better than the existing ones...

Permalink Mark Unread

So, technically an improvement. Even if it turns out to foreclose actually fixing things.

Would the Valar want magic if they knew about it? I'd rather they not know, but if they do it doesn't actively hurt anything.

Permalink Mark Unread

They'd want to regulate it. No idea if they'd want that to involve practicing it. Probably varies by Vala, they might get Eru's input.

Permalink Mark Unread

So if we tell Melian they eventually do something completely unpredictable, regardless of whether she awakens. Probably slowly, though.

Permalink Mark Unread

It'll definitely be Years, probably longer than that.

Permalink Mark Unread

I think we might have to. It's almost either that or we escape.

Besides, this way we might get to see what happens if a powerful Maia who the world is already in the habit of listening to becomes a practitioner. Potentially important information.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, good point. Also how were you expecting we escape, making them not notice we're here doesn't help with the door...

Permalink Mark Unread

Hadn't thought it through, but they don't know what we've got. I'd be surprised if everything we could think of is blocked. In the extreme case we, um, put the door back.

 


We could describe making Doriath invulnerable as requiring them to compromise on the isolation. It's true enough that it's there to exaggerate. Do you think that'd change her mind about wanting it?

Permalink Mark Unread

I tentatively expect so? Maiar are so hard to predict...

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah. I was hoping we'd get an impenetrable Doriath and them still interacting with us.

Permalink Mark Unread

And we might. ...breaking out definitely destroys the possibility of them interacting with us...

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah. Bit of a last resort, that one.

 

One last catch. Your father mentioned that married couples don't or can't keep secrets from each other. I don't think Elwe has a way to use the knowledge against us?

Permalink Mark Unread

Other than becoming a practitioner and being a stupid one. That'd fall on Melian, which - might hurt Doriath? Also, dunno if the married couples-can't-keep-secrets problem applies to a Maia married to an Elf...

Permalink Mark Unread

So there's a couple layers of protection even if there were something he wanted to try.

"Your Majesty, we have the explanation you asked for, and something to offer you."


No idea if she's listening.

Permalink Mark Unread

The door decides to go back to existing a little while later. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Looks like an invitation.

Who's on the other side?

Permalink Mark Unread

The King and Queen, together. They don't have guards, but it's rather obvious Melian would hardly need them.

Permalink Mark Unread

Your Majesties.

Permalink Mark Unread

Your explanation.

Permalink Mark Unread

It is long and implausible, but you will understand why we were evasive. I am wiling to periodically swear I haven't lied to you if necessary.

She tells Melian the side effects if she decides to pass it on to Elwe and Elwe the fact that informing people is dangerous. And, as politely phrased as possible, that she only promised one explanation.
Alongside the (distorted) set of karma rules, she offers to make Melian a practitioner if she wants it. She describes the demesne ritual as giving near-total influence over a location and making it unassailable.

Permalink Mark Unread

In a respect different from what we already have here?

Permalink Mark Unread

In a surprisingly similar sense, actually. 

The traditional description, though it's probably an exaggeration, is "one step below a god." And you're
already you.
You could expect everything you do affecting Doriath to be easier, and more successful, and to accumulate good luck from managing it the way you currently do. I suspect that if Doriath were your demesne and the Enemy himself came to your borders, you could turn him away. Or let him enter, fight, and win.

If nothing else, you could easily make it so he can't locate you by having someone fly overhead.

Permalink Mark Unread

Please explain how this is done.

Permalink Mark Unread

The using a demesne, or the finding Doriath?

Permalink Mark Unread

Using a demesne.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's supposed to be very intuitive, almost as simple moving your own body except with less feedback and more gradual. Whatever you most often want your demesne to be, either consciously or not, it shifts. It has an easier time with minor contradictions than what you currently have seems to; it would make perfect sense for the sky to be visible from below but not the ground from above. Whatever you currently spend attention to maintain you could have happen automatically.

In and around the area, you can expect the spirits to side with you in any conflict where you have a side, and to obey your requests or orders. If you use the practice for anything it will be safer and more powerful than usual, but even if you don't the universe will cooperate with your actions. Usually I'd say it can allow reshaping the setting at will, but that you already have. 

Yep, there's still a door behind them.

Some powerful practitoners, which would definitely include you, can reenter their demesne from a distance should they choose to leave it. That one will have more to "how" than just telling it to happen, but it varies by individual.

Permalink Mark Unread

I would like to learn this art.

Permalink Mark Unread

One more warning that doesn't apply to most people.

When a practitioner isolates their demesne, it can fall between the cracks and fade from the world with them inside it. You will probably have very good karma, and will not be actively dragged down, but this is not a good risk to take. Especially with a kingdom's worth of people here. To avoid it you should make sure that you and your demesne stay connected to people and places outside it.

I can think of three ways to do this. One is to periodically leave and visit other places personally. I suspect you'd be unwilling to do that. A second is to claim only part of Doriath as your demesne, making sure that much of your population is in the part not claimed. Or you can maintain ties to other kingdoms by sending and receiving representatives, engaging in trade and diplomacy, and setting up channels of distance communication.

Permalink Mark Unread

Over what sort of time scale is that a risk? Is falling out of the world harmful to the people involved, would I notice if the process began?

Permalink Mark Unread

Extremely harmful. The Abyss is a mostly literal place, with a claim on all things lost and forgotten. It would grind you down and destroy you, and this is not something you want to risk. The site that used to be the demesne would be a savage place, holy and enchanted, but only saturated with power and no direction.

 

Before any of that, you'd notice that you seem to be getting weaker. Weaker as a practitioner; I don't see how it could affect the power you have already. It would happen if the spirits stop flowing between the inside of your demesne and the outside, which you'll also be able to see directly. If that starts to decrease, it would be tempting to improve your demesne to fix it but that would not address the problem. It's about maintaining ties to the outside.

As for the time scale, it can happen in Years. Years as measured in the world outside; you'll be able to alter the flow of time if you like at the cost of counterintuitive, unpredictable jumps for people who exit.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you. We can give some people an assignment of regular travel to outside for as long as the continent remains safe, at least. After that we can still have regular communication with anyone but the Enemy. If the Enemy conquers the continent, though, I am not sure how we'd meaningfully maintain connections of the kind that you say is required...

Permalink Mark Unread

It is entirely possible for connections with an enemy to count. If he's besieging you and his lieutenants are plotting things to try against you, the world won't be able to forget Doriath is here. You would probably have to actively take the fight to them occasionally, so it doesn't turn into routine and unthinking stalemate.


If you'd like to become a practitioner, we have most of what's needed for the awakening ritual.

Permalink Mark Unread

I would learn more of it, or have you swear that's all I need to know.

Permalink Mark Unread

I've said all you need to know to do it safely. Learning more would increase your capabilities with it, and would mostly be limited by what I know. I'd be happy to tell you what I can either before or after you awaken.

"I swear I haven't lied to you," she adds, since I guess before now you couldn't trust that practitioners can't lie.

Permalink Mark Unread

What is involved in acquiring this magic?

Permalink Mark Unread

You sit in a circle surrounded by other circles containing a certain set of random objects. You aren't supposed to be wearing anything, so it's often done privately, but more importantly I don't know how that interacts with you not being technically an incarnate. Some of the random objects are food offerings; those disappear. Others move in front of you and you say what they make you think of, then you make a personal statement and the pledge of truthfulness. It's about letting the spirits know who you are, and then from then on they start paying attention to you.


A lot of the ritual is in a dead language. I have a translation into mine, and if you like I can send it over osanwe ahead of time as well as during.

Permalink Mark Unread

I could do it while not in incarnate form, depending what's important about being unclothed.

Permalink Mark Unread

I think it's about— not having any barriers between you and the world you're joining. Pretty much everything involved is symbolism one way or another. 

That and the fact that the entire ritual works by tradition, but aside from the concept of dead languages the fact that she's from a different world has yet to be relevant.

Permalink Mark Unread

I will do it without incarnate form, then, I think. 

Permalink Mark Unread

All right. We have some of the materials, but you'll need a rose, food and alcohol of any kind, a dagger... she ends the list with "and preferably soundproofing."

Permalink Mark Unread

I will have someone bring them.

Permalink Mark Unread

In the meantime, ritual translation? The dual columns of English and who knows what would be doubly useless, but if Melian's signing onto the practice on the advice of imperfectly trustworthy people she might want to check that the text matches the summary.

Permalink Mark Unread

Please do tell it now.

Permalink Mark Unread

It is pretty much as described. A few references without referents, talking about the ways things are done, but those she can clarify refer to the karma rules.

Permalink Mark Unread

And she concentrates intently and then says smoothly, not from her body, which has stopped moving, all right. I will conduct the ritual here. Elu -

 

He moves towards where the voice is coming from.

Permalink Mark Unread

Um, nearby is fine if you've told him about the practice, but you shouldn't have two people in the circle....

Permalink Mark Unread

But I need to have the thing that is important to me with me, yes?

Permalink Mark Unread

She stifles a laugh and then realizes that no, this is the opposite of funny.

I don't think there's a rule saying the personal, object, can't be a person. Never heard of it being done.

But it shouldn't have any unfortunate implications for this purpose at least, so In one of the six circles in the middle ring.

Permalink Mark Unread

This is arranged.

Permalink Mark Unread

And as she starts receiving syllables to repeat, everything not in the diagrams fades into unimportance. The components start shifting position and some of them appear one at a time in front of the space where Melian's body isn't. At each of those points the script stops while Melian says anywhere from a word to a paragraph about what she associates with the object. (Elwe is the last of these.) It ends with the bit that translates as a pledge that yep, no lies from here on out.

Afterward, the world looks the same as before but with another dimension overlaid on top of it. The other practitioners and their magic items stand out, but Melian is in Doriath and the rest of everything doesn't become less visible for it.

Permalink Mark Unread

This is fascinating. Thank you. And the ritual to make Doriath safer?

Permalink Mark Unread

That one's a lot more freeform and simpler.
Can you speak with one voice from each corner of where you want your demesne to be? An incarnate who wanted to claim a large area would have to be really loud, but you might be able to skip that.

Permalink Mark Unread

I can do that. Now?

Permalink Mark Unread

It can be. The challengers—you won't get any from in here since that's already yours, but there might be something nearby... if the trees and things outside your realm had opinions about you holding Doriath would they be favorable ones?

Permalink Mark Unread

The spiders and the Valley of Dreadful Death might object.

Permalink Mark Unread

Valley of—okay.

So if there are any Others there intelligent enough to respond they might show up and contest your claim. But you get input on what the contest is, even if they get first pick of a detail, so it can just be something that lets you toss them out and declare victory.

Permalink Mark Unread

Very well.

Could I have my demesne be all of Doriath except Menegroth, and then have Elu or my daughter claim Menegroth? To avoid the problem with becoming lost to the world?

Permalink Mark Unread

That might help. Or it might not; there'd be no more links to the outside than if both were yours. Both could just fade as a unit.


The main problem is that I don't 
think anyone else could claim Menegroth. Doriath is your place in a very complete sense, and that's also how demesnes work, so you'd have to first give up all personal claim on the part you set aside.

Permalink Mark Unread

Hmmm. No, that wouldn't work.

Permalink Mark Unread

I thought it might not.

The limit on how far it can extend, aside from what you can take and what you can hold, since neither of those will pose a problem for you, is whether your voice reaches the edges. Do you have whatever you need set up so you can speak from everywhere on the border?

Permalink Mark Unread

What does it mean to you to speak in my own voice?

Permalink Mark Unread

Just that it's you speaking, not someone else claiming it in your name or a reproduction of what you sound like. If you don't have a fixed thing that your voice sounds like, the spirits know and that's not a problem.

If you can't do words simultaneously in different places, it would also work cheat at how well sound carries or just be really loud.

Permalink Mark Unread

I can create the sound of my voice in four locations;  I would be present in all four to the same degree I am present everywhere in Doriath.

Permalink Mark Unread

It hasn't exactly been tested, but that should work perfectly. 


I should emphasize, the challenges I mentioned? Stakes can get high. Too high. Anything from bragging rights to mortal combat. You might have a lot of Others challenging you, and it's hard to say which ones or how many you'd be able to keep away entirely.

Permalink Mark Unread

I will not cede an inch of Doriath or endanger anyone in it, but I am otherwise willing to make compromises.

Permalink Mark Unread

You do have a lot of leeway. If they insist on something you're unwilling to pay, you can propose a contest where kicking them out of Doriath counts as a win. If the challenger picks something where you're at a disadvantage one on one, you can suggest allowing help from both side's allies. You'll find it much harder than usual to keep beings from getting to you in the first place, but there are other dimensions to make up for it.

Permalink Mark Unread

In your assessment, claiming Doriath as my demesne makes it safer.

Permalink Mark Unread

Once it succeeds, no question. The ritual for claiming it is riskier, and it's meant to be claiming buildings at most.

I do think it is worth the risk by far, but only because you're already powerful enough to get away with it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Perhaps I will consider it awhile. At the moment the risk seems needless.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's not pressing. I can give you more information on the practice and the ritual; other than that, any other time is no better or worse.

Permalink Mark Unread

In that case I will wait until I expect Doriath to have need of additional defenses. At the moment the land is safe.

Permalink Mark Unread

Very well. If it's threatened by the Enemy it won't necessarily be too late; only practitioners and Others can respond to the claim anyway.

Permalink Mark Unread

And I foresee many Years of peace. Thank you for your explanation. You should before you go learn songs composed here, and teach them to all your people, to keep Doriath connected with the world.

Permalink Mark Unread

Songs are a good idea. Writings might be better suited, if your culture is recorded in literature and history as well as music.

Permalink Mark Unread

Writing?

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh right. The Noldor invented that.

A system of symbols that represent words. Better for this purpose because there can be songs with no identifiable source more easily than books with no author, so writing does more to solidify ties.

It's also much better for a lot of practical uses! You can send information without a messenger having to be the one to say it, you can guarantee that the words you remember are the ones you composed, and it's easier to copy. I should definitely teach some people while I'm here, and it will probably catch on quickly.

Permalink Mark Unread

If you like, she says skeptically.

Permalink Mark Unread

You'd be surprised how useful it can be.

Permalink Mark Unread

For the purposes of Men, maybe. But you are welcome to teach it.

Permalink Mark Unread

I will.




Now that you know that the real reason for keeping the secret applies even to the most trusted, may we bring more of the spirits from your kingdom to our greenhouses?

Permalink Mark Unread

Will Doriath suffer for their absence here?

Permalink Mark Unread

No. When not being used, they're an indicator of how well your gardens are growing, not the cause.

Permalink Mark Unread

Then by all means, with your oath that the strength they grant the Noldor will not be levied against my people.

Permalink Mark Unread

I swear. This is going to be a fun one to explain to Nolofinwe, let alone Maitimo. I ask it as aid against the Enemy, and I swear the Noldor will use nothing we derive from these against the people of Doriath.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you.

 

And they can resume collecting elementals, with much less care paid to stealth this time. If the Queen would like to learn the relevant magic she can, but in Doriath she could probably just direct the result to happen.

Permalink Mark Unread

She can. She observes them, but doesn't ask questions, particularly. There are more concerts and pleasantries.

Permalink Mark Unread

And introduction of writing, that one's important. (Did the Dwarves have writing? The Dwarves have to have had writing.)

Permalink Mark Unread

The Dwarves totally had writing. The Elves still think it's kind of a waste of time, but some try. 

 

Melian and Thingol have a daughter, who looks appropriately like a demigod and is very pleased to meet them.

Permalink Mark Unread

(She also looks like a demigod, no less appropriately. If Doriath needed any more powerful practitioners... fortunately they don't.)

 

Pleased to meet you too, Luthien. 
Your kingdom is fantastic, by the way, easily the best place on the continent.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you! Before the Enemy it was - well, it wasn't like this everywhere, but it was a little like this. Peaceful, and beautiful, and plentiful, and happy. 

Permalink Mark Unread

I wish I could have seen it. Now there's, well. Interference.

Permalink Mark Unread

The Enemy will be defeated and the peace restored.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Even most of the Noldor aren't that sure. I think we can do it, though.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, I don't know that the Noldor can do it, but it'll happen eventually.

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, you meant the Valar.

We wouldn't turn down the help, but aren't counting on it. They operate on a bit too different of a time scale.

Permalink Mark Unread

So does the Enemy, though.

Permalink Mark Unread

That makes a lot of sense from Doriath's point of view. From ours, we'll probably already know our result one way or the other by the time the Valar step in.

Permalink Mark Unread

You could come here if things get bad.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thanks.
Well, not me personally; I'm mortal and he 
is on a Vala's time scale, but thanks.

Permalink Mark Unread

Mortal?

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh. I had thought humans were common knowledge, just not the fact that there were any yet.
We don't live forever.

Permalink Mark Unread

What happens?

Permalink Mark Unread

We age. There's no single answer to what happens, but eventually things start going physically wrong in minor ways and eventually they start adding up and eventually it's something we can't live without. It's not fast; takes what seems to us like a lifetime.

Permalink Mark Unread

And how long is that?

Permalink Mark Unread

I'm not sure what calendar you use here. At most about ten Years by the Noldor one.

Permalink Mark Unread

My mom might be able to do something. 

Permalink Mark Unread

She could do that? That sounded so simple.

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't know for sure, but possibly. More likely that she could if you lived in Doriath.

Permalink Mark Unread

Nod. Right now the Noldor need all the help they can get. Maybe if it starts to matter before anything decisive happens either way.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, fair.

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean, I'd absolutely not turn down checking if she can do it. But it's not the sort of thing humans tend to expect.

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean, if it's Eru's will, that's all right. We'll be sad but we won't try to keep you here longer than is meant to be. Does seem sad, though.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah.
There's no, categorical rule against long-lived humans, that I know of. It just happens not to come up usually.

Permalink Mark Unread

Then we should ask my mother.

Permalink Mark Unread

Definitely.

Permalink Mark Unread

Is it lonely? Being the only human?

Permalink Mark Unread

Kind of. Less than it could be. Elves are a lot more like humans than I'd have any right to expect of another species.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yes, you're much more of a person than the Dwarves.

Permalink Mark Unread

More of a person?

Permalink Mark Unread

I mean, your goals make sense and you react more the way Elves do to things and you have thoughts....

Permalink Mark Unread

The thoughts thing sounded like it was just two different kinds of not having osanwe, where they're actively immune. I can see where it would be bizarre if you're used to everyone having it.

Dwarves seem even more like humans than Elves do. I could explain their goals if you want.

Permalink Mark Unread

Could you? I tried making friends but they seemed to think that the point of everything was gold...

Permalink Mark Unread

That part I can explain. I didn't recognize much else about Dwarf culture, but I know the gold.

 

Say there's something you need, let's say it's a wheelbarrow, and I'm offering one. But I can't just give it away because I don't have many to give out, or it was hard to make and I can't replace it easily, or something.

We could just trade. Chances are you have something I'd want if we sat down and worked it out. If I'd rather have your holocaust cloak than my wheelbarrow, and you'd rather have the wheelbarrow than the holocaust cloak, we swap and we're both better off. But we'd have to negotiate what, and it might get complicated.
Or maybe I don't need a holocaust cloak, but someone 
else does and they have the frog dust I wanted... that gets even more complicated.

So everyone agrees to use gold as an arbitrary Thing Everyone Wants. You pay me some amount of gold for the wheelbarrow, and no one has to find anything to barter.

Everything being about gold isn't about gold. It's just that enough gold can be exchanged for practically anything.

Permalink Mark Unread

Useful, sure, but a terribly complicated way to run a society, and sort of soulless...

Permalink Mark Unread

Soulless is a plus, sometimes. Especially if there are a lot of Dwarves. Money means you can make deals with strangers, and if there are a lot of people it might not be possible to stop being strangers first every time you want to try something new.


It's also possible to have a currency and 
not base an entire society around it, of course.The Dwarves who came to the trading post did seem kind of obsessed; maybe their city is different. Or maybe Dwarves are just like that.

Permalink Mark Unread

I think Dwarves are just like that. They don't even really have a government. 

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None at all? I guess that could explain why they're bad at collective action problems.

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They have, like, a council, but it's not allowed to do things like go to war.

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What does it do, could it finance one?

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Maybe? It was not a very productive conversation, we just had very different assumptions. It - he? - was horrified that Mother and Father can do whatever they think is best for the kingdom.

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I had pretty much the same reaction when I found out the Noldor had kings.
Up until they explained that everyone there had volunteered to fight the Enemy; it makes sense for generals in a war to have more authority over their soldiers than governments do over everyone. If your kings can do whatever they think best, what happens if you get a bad one?

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Why would people choose a bad person to be King?

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They think they're choosing a good one, or they are choosing a good one but people change, or the king is ethical but unskilled and got installed by a very convincing person who wanted a puppet....

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Those would be good outcomes but I don't think they've ever happened. People choose good kings and Elves don't change much if they're already pretty old when they start.

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Any method is going to have occasional mistakes. If you don't change leadership much at all then maybe "don't get unlucky" is a viable strategy.

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Why would we change it?

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The king, may he live forever, might not live forever? Much less of a big deal for Elves, that one. Or if there's a kingdom where the best person to run it isn't currently running it, it might be useful to have a procedure for finding out who.

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They could go start their own kingdom and see if people follow them.

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Huh. That could make a lot more sense when kingdoms and people are on the same time scale. A new monarchy of mortals would have succession problems when the founder dies.

What if the existing powers don't want to let them leave?

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A good King wouldn't have objections to his people starting a new realm. Depending on the situation he might not promise to let them come back.

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When there isn't a good King is exactly when having some solution is most important.

I don't know enough to say I'd prefer the Dwarves' setup, but monarchy is a scary thing.

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Really doesn't seem that way to me, but I understand why it'd scare you.

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It's the absoluteness, mostly.

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You do have to trust that your King would never give an order that's wrong.

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And never is a powerful word. Even among Elves, when you at least know who the king is.



...I've been thinking of you as an Elf all this time. Is that off?

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Half-right!

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Oh. So, you actually are the only one then.

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Yeah. It was hard on Mother, they don't want to do it again.

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Is it lonely?

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I have all of Menegroth! I feel stifled sometimes, but definitely never lonely.

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Oh, good.

Is it going to be less stifling now that the outside continent's safer?

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There's still no way my parents would ever let me out of Doriath. But it means visitors!

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Visitors, yes. And probably more than just us, too.

They won't let you out ever? That does sound stifling.

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I would be a ridiculously tempting target for the Enemy.

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Yeah, true. But it's your risk to take if you want to.

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Not really. They're the ones who'd die trying to retrieve me or, if the Enemy figured out a way to use me, when I turned on them...

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That sounds like not wanting to. For a depressingly good reason.

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I don't mind it. Doriath's a nice place to be stuck, if you're going to be stuck.

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If. It's a very nice place, but. If.

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Other people are out there dying.

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I'm sorry you're stuck.

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I'm excited to get to meet more people.

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There won't be any shortage of people who want to come here.

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If they're all willing to swear to be safe they're all welcome.

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That's great news to be able to bring back.

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That the lands outside Doriath are better defended is great news you brought here.

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Always glad to help with that one.

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I hope the Noldor are planning to win their war and then move on?

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I don't really know what they're planning next. I've been, intentionally not thinking of much other than the problem. And the ones who think we can win are planning on a schedule I won't be here for, that too.

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I suppose that makes sense.

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Why are you hoping they'll move on? Since they're outside here either way, and not even all that close.

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Beleriand was all ruled from Menegroth, and all populated, when the Enemy came. When he's defeated people are going to want to go back to their homes, and the fact the Enemy briefly claimed the lands doesn't make them up for grabs, and I don't get the sense the Noldor will want to become citizens of this kingdom, and if they want to found their own they should move on to somewhere unclaimed and unpopulated, not just recently depopulated by the Enemy.

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I don't know if they know how much of it was populated when. I do know they weren't attached to any specific land coming in. Whether that changes might depend on how long we're talking about.

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So, better to tell them up front, probably.

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Oh, definitely. Might not affect how long it takes before the answer changes to "no this is our home now," but still. Are there unclaimed lands worth claiming? It'd go over better if it doesn't look like they're getting pushed to the middle of nowhere.

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I think east of the mountains there are whole forests and valleys and plains with no one there. Or, Dwarves in their underground cities, but they won't care what Elves are doing aboveground.

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These Elves might not stay above ground, actually.

But I'll tell them the mountains are the boundary, and hopefully the Enemy's gone before multiple groups have put down roots in the same place.

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Thank you!

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Concerts and pleasantries continue, of course. Elves.

Eventually they reach a reasonable stopping point and, after a brief check in case Melian can confer immortality, head back to the Noldor.

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Not casually, she says with a frown. If you remained in my domain I could suspend the processes that I expect bring about the result you describe. But I would want you close by in case this had unintended effects, and I in any event would need to be doing it continually.

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I don't think I can be spared at the moment, and it's not a threat yet anyway. Thank you for checking.

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You are very welcome. Go with my blessing, and Eru's.

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They go with one of those two things.

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Well. Could have gone worse. What are you going to report to the Feanorians?

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That the queen's a practitioner and how did he know to recommend that.

That the king is Elu so we can very likely expect Doriath to stop being an ally eventually but they might stay in contact for magic reasons. Might ask them about sending a palantir, though I did make sure not to mention those in Doriath in case the answer's no.

That we're going to start producing more food soon, but we're not using the elementals on their greenhouses—that one I'll want to run by the King first; maybe there's an oath-based solution. I swore we wouldn't use anything we get from these against Doriath and we can't guarantee the Feanorians
won't.

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Yeah. Can't see how they would, with Melian a practitioner now, but still.

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If I have to say it wasn't used to hurt them but not for lack of trying, that's way too close.

I'm not happy about the Feanorians being dependent on us for food, but getting reliable oaths when only Maitimo knows they exist might be a hard problem.

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I'm happy about the Feanorians being dependent on us for food, to be honest.

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Better than the reverse, for sure. But it's like with the steam engines. Less weakness on our side in general would be good.

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Yeah. But we can get them to trade us the output of their steam-engine-based development for food or something, maybe.

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Maybe this would go better if Maitimo were a practitioner. After the ice, the fires, and now the steam, the spirits would think they owe us so much by now.

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Maybe he realized that when he disclaimed any interest. I also imagine he stayed awake a few nights trying to figure out a way to get you to join them, and he's done nothing in that direction at all. Which suggests there isn't one, which is very reassuring.

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You do also have the advantages of not having started a massacre or burned the boats.

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Oh, it's not that I was expecting you to forget that those were important things for which side you'd want to be attached to, it's just - lots of people are in fact seduceable away from their own long-term goals by a whole lot less talent than Maitimo's got at it. And he hasn't even tried, which means his initial impression was 'nope, can't pull it off', which is a Feanorian sort of compliment.

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When you put it like that, it's actually really strange. He barely tried convincing me the second host is just going to slow his down and I should work with the supergeniuses even if they're them, and that one might even have worked under some conceivable set of facts.
Maybe he's more glad of the multiple armies than he let on.

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Yeah, that's weird. If he was glad of the multiple armies he could have, you know, not burned the boats and had multiple armies on friendly terms. Or not lied to us all about the burning the boats and had us, if equally pissed, less inclined to consider his word worth the parchment it's written on.

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This one can't just be about me; having an ethical army doesn't hurt but he knows I'm wishing for help from the
Valar and that I blame them even more than his side.

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You could ask him his reasoning but it's not like the answer would be information.

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And it'd make him more likely to actually try.

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I mean, at this point it'd be very personally hurtful if you switched sides but we wouldn't die on the ice.

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I'm not considering it, haven't and don't especially want to, plus it'd mean he's expending effort on helping one host at the expense of the other.

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I sort of figure he's doing that to exactly the degree that suits him anyway.

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Probably. I can at least not encourage more of it by asking why he hadn't tried to poach me.

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Fair enough.

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I wonder what they'll make of the Dwarves. Could be anything from "sounds useful, later" to "society powered entirely by money? Let's go invent all the everything and buy an army."

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Yeah. Carnistir'd be excited, he likes economics, but he's also super racist so I don't know if he'd pounce on Dwarves or not. Maybe with one of his brothers to keep him in check.

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Whatever they do is hardly likely to hurt, this time.

How do you even have economics if you don't use money? It'd be missing all the math.

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It's considered one of those useless theoretical fields, like abstract math or molecular chemistry.

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I don't know much economics myself, but I'm pretty sure it wound up being world-changingly important on Earth. Like abstract math and molecular chemistry. I bet the same applies to the Dwarves' economy. Carnistir better be able to swallow the racism.

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Feanorians are rarely moved by such trivial considerations as morality but they're quite good at responding to incentives.

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And "hey, you know your pet theory, surprise! someone based a society around it" is a pretty good incentive.

Unless he disagrees with them about economics, which would just be funny.

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Please have this conversation, I really want to hear about it.

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I'd probably be going through Maitimo, and Feanorians in general don't—at least recently didn't—know about Earth. The bit about the Dwarves doesn't have that problem.

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Fair enough. Where are you claiming to them your tech came from, then?

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Maybe nowhere, like the language I was speaking the first time around.

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Well, it's not like there's not a lot they're just blatantly pretending didn't happen.

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Getting it to Fëanáro without him being curious would be harder than Feanorians in general, too. But it does have to explicitly come from me, can't say it was the Dwarves, because they might go to Tumunzahar.

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Oh, Feanáro's going to interrogate you if he gets half a chance and it'll be really hard to keep up the masquerade. Just refuse to talk to him. Seriously.

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That sounds so inefficient. It's too bad you're probably right.

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Oh, it's a stupid waste of the brightest mind of the Noldor that it was assigned to our most reckless asshole, no question. 

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Worst-case it's just handing Maitimo some blueprints to pass on, but there's got to be some way to safely do more communication than that.

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You could ask Maitimo for suggestions, if you trust him to share your goals that far.

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Not on this.
I'm more worried he'd engineer me letting something slip in front of people, so suddenly he can safely tell them more....

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Fair point.

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I might trust an idea he suggested. Just not easily.

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The united Noldor would have been quite the force to reckon with.

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If only.


The flight back is boring and uneventful, but that just means they're still the only ones in the sky. Good news for Doriath. They'll eventually arrive back to install the agricultural upgrade and report to the King.

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I expect Doriath's offer of shelter for civilians if things go wrong will expire when they hear of Alqualonde. 

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Very likely.

I was hoping the Queen would do the demesne ritual on the spot, then she'd have a motive to stay in contact with us even after and maybe that would extend to protecting civilians, but I couldn't think of any sense where it's urgent.

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The Maiar do not tend to make grave decisions quickly. Perhaps in a few Years, if Alqualonde does not become known for that long.

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Then it's no longer true that there's no reason for the second delegation not to volunteer it.

Doriath might learn about Alqualondë from the Valar, or the Enemy if he knows. I guess it could happen in the right order.

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Or from some members of this host who think we are permitting my brother and his followers to get away with too much.

 

 

Melian with the strength to contest the Enemy is a great good, regardless.

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I'm almost more concerned about the Valar having found out about magic. She's not in regular contact with them, but she told Elwe after very little consideration and that probably generalizes.

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She could hardly have kept it from him. But yes, it is plausible that she'll inform them. What effects will that have? Will the laws associated with magic change more rapidly than anticipated if the Valar take part?

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Depends what they do. She can describe how to awaken, and if any of them do they'll end up with a lot more influence toward what's considered normal.

I gave Melian an even more selectively emphasized version of the laws than Maitimo, and more unrelated statements slipped in like that people shouldn't be universally obeyed solely because they have job titles labeling them as authority. Er, no offense intended.

So maybe the Valar decide to go along with that and it actively helps, or they're at least deterred by it and it doesn't hurt. But if they guess that it's malleable, and try, the spirits will listen.

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They are certainly likely to continue feeling strongly about various features of Eru's will that your system does not currently seem to care about.

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And different objections from mine, too.

If they grumble but accept it as coming with magic, that's barely different from leaping at the chance. It's if they decide to make it work differently that they might change things.

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Their values are not precisely my own but seem much better along every possible dimension than the existing ones, so there's that.

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Not every dimension. Not allowing people to leave Valinor comes to mind as something you'd be likely to agree with.

I guess I would technically have succeeded if they end up turning their will into natural law, but it's still not the success I was hoping for. In any case it's a problem for after we've handled the Enemy.

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I am hoping that was ill-consideration on their end, not policy. But yes. It is good to know there is a place of beauty and safety in Beleriand.

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It is.

Irissë and I thought future groups could be whoever would benefit most from being there, but they might have to also be selected for not mentioning Alqualondë.

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There are only a few people I'd accuse of disobeying an order on that. Maybe we can send families, hope they're permitted to stay even when the truth comes out.

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Hopefully. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing that might work.

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Thank you, Amber.

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A few things I should ask you about. Can the Feanorians be relied on to build and use new technology discreetly? A lot of what I could tell them would benefit the Enemy more than us if he got a chance to copy it, I'm hoping the best answer isn't just to keep it secret.

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I am not sure. They'd take the necessity seriously, but they haven't shown much in the way of good judgment recently.

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And if they eventually decide that whatever they have just has to be enough, and it isn't...

I could make the offer conditional on giving you a veto for anything conspicuous? Might even motivate them to go do their inventing in the Dwarves' city.
Kind of doubt they'd go for that.

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I expect their reaction to an offer conditional on giving me a veto will be 'haven't you realized by now that we'll learn it anyway'?

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They very well might not.

But I don't want them to not have anything I could help reconstruct, not if there's a safe way they can.

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Really? Nothing?

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Not nothing, they could probably get the steam engine just from the name. Maybe internal combustion, or who knows what else. But I doubt they'd be able to make electricity based solely on the fact that there's something I'm not saying.

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And their unknown means of spying on us. But what I meant was that it surprises me that there's nothing you know you wouldn't prefer to have in their hands.

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Oh. I meant I'd prefer to avoid the result where I don't tell them anything at all, not that there aren't things I wouldn't trust them with.

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That makes more sense.

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This question's kind of a long shot, but have you or other non-Feanorians ever used a palantir? Without one of them there?

If those are their means of spying, maybe they'd be reluctant to turn it over. Suggesting that they send Doriath one might be a somewhat useful test.

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I have used them, yes. There is no immediately apparent mechanism to use them other than for communication, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

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And there are non-spying reasons not to send one, too. Like more communication meaning more risk of someone slipping up about Alqualonde.

Maybe it doesn't give that much information.

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Are you planning to get in touch with their host again soon?

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Both to describe them some machinery to whatever extent I can do that without giving Fëanáro a chance to get too curious, and to tell Maitimo why I'm not doing the same thing for their greenhouses as their forges.

They should also hear about the Dwarves; I'm mostly sure they didn't know there were any in Doriath.

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Fair enough. You could write them a letter, if you don't want to give away more than that.

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I'd rather not talk about magic in a letter. That'd rule out the elementals and the fact that Melian is a practitioner. Which, I can't think of a reason Maitimo shouldn't know....

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He nods. If you think it's wiser to visit them you obviously may. A safe way of giving them technology does not come to mind.

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Maybe not in general. I could aim for things that would be harder to reverse-engineer if the Enemy sees them in action, or that would benefit us more than him regardless.

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Those both seem like wise goals.

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Hopefully even achievable ones.



Now that the food problem is taken care of, probably, are we going to start exporting? Since we're already not the ones reduced to eating orcs.

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I suppose that is one avenue to being looked upon more favorably by the locals. We can send south, ask about the populations there as well.

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The locals, and the Feanorians. Either just because they're currently starving and we might be able to do something about that or because they'll have things to trade.

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I am fairly certain that they'd rather starve than ask us for help, but you are welcome to offer. My brother is a little prideful.

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It's starving the rest of their people that's the problem. But if they turn it down, they turn it down.

And predictably more defectors wouldn't be bad.

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Indeed. I don't have much sense of whether my brother cares about doing right by his people. It would surprise me, but he has surprised me before.

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I'll ask Maitimo. He certainly cares about looking like he cares.

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That I will grant you. How quickly do you expect we'll have food to trade?

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Shorter than however long the plants in your greenhouses normally take, but I can't say what fraction.

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All right. Was there anything else?

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No, I think you know everything.

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Thank you, Amber.

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And the Feanorians.

She goes through Indil; no need to interrupt Maitimo directly and a lot of the recent trip actually is general-Feanorian-public safe.

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Hey! What's up?

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Just got back from the hidden kingdom. The good news is Doriath is very safe and they're at the moment glad we're here, the less good news is we can't expect backup in any form that might put their people at risk.

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Well. A safe place for civilians is something. The people we talk to are mostly unimpressed with the King, are they being fair?

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If it's just unimpressedness and not active disapproval then probably. The Queen seems responsible for more good and bad.


The king is also Elwe.

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Oh, lovely. Do you know if Nolofinwe's planning to tell them - or did you already -

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No! It probably can't stay secret forever, though.

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Yeah. Ugh. If it can wait fifty years they'll all be reembodied, that's something.

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We're hoping to send the families to visit while they're still friendly, and maybe they'll accept at least the children even after they know. Might be a little hopelessly optimistic.

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You don't get the impression they'd hold them hostage, though?

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No, they'd have to be a lot more actively evil for that. They'll just shut their borders. And it's not like they want us doing anything differently from what we already are; there's not even much to hold anyone hostage for.

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Some kind of justice for Alqualondë? I'll take your word on it, anyway. We can send kids if prince Nelyafinwe thinks it'll help.

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He did have an implausibly good estimate of what they were like ahead of time. 

I'm not sure how likely this is to help, but it's better odds than not doing it.

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He will think of everything relevant and do it if necessary, she says, the osanwe conveying the conviction and admiration almost more strongly than the words. And some approaches to doing it might be better than others.

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All approaches are long shots. Hopefully at least one's good enough.

At least there's no outcome worse than if they weren't here. And in the meantime they're willing to send any supplies that don't risk being used against them. 

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Oh, that's kind. Brithombar said that when they were besieged Thingol offered no help at all. I guess now that the continent's safe everyone can be more generous.

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Might be that. I don't know if they're supplying Brithombar or not now. This might just be because we're providing the defense.

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We can't accept  their things, not unless they'll swear not to steal a Silmaril.

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Why not? It's not likely they'll have a chance to steal one, and that would be a tricky oath to ask for without giving away that the Silmarils aren't just something the Enemy stole.

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Well. We could. But then, if they do steal a Silmaril, it's over for all of us, and that's quite the incentive for the Enemy to arrange for them to get one...

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Yeah. Or at least really bad all around.

But that's not more true if they've sent you things before then? I know they'll accept oaths not to use what they send against them, if nothing else you could just drop it all when you find out they have a Silmaril.

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I think we could do that. Depending on a common understanding of 'benefit'. You usually do not have more than one future-action-binding oath, just as a matter of safety, but we're throwing out a lot of rules and it's not like the Silmaril oath contains a 'using all resources at our disposal' clause or anything...

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But of course this still doesn't do anything to stop the Enemy from arranging the problem if he wants to...

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Do they seem stupid enough to, if handed an instrument of division by the Enemy, go 'oh, shiny!'?

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Not if it was helpfully labeled as that. But if it just appeared and you told them about the Oath, they might hang onto it and trust the queen to keep the borders closed. She's a pretty powerful Maia. It could work.

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If it were impossible that'd actually be a good outcome. Note how the oath isn't forcing the King to run and bang his head against the walls of Angband. We'd have to work on the problem, but we could work on it from here, no hostilities until we have the strength to kill a Vala.

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But you'd still be at war, more or less at the request of the Enemy...

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Once we have the strength to kill a Vala, we kill him, ask them to reconsider.

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I think they'd reconsider. Probably.

The Oath doesn't make you go after the least difficult Silmaril, then?

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No. If one were trivially accessible then yes, but otherwise no.

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Then what does he even gain from handing one to them? I guess it'd matter if there's some weapon that can definitely defeat Doriath but probably not Angband.

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And he'd be taking a very big gamble, because if they do hand it back to us, that's it, we've won the war.

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It's that certain?

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I am probably privy to barely more information than you. But I trust the King, and if the King thinks it'd be worth a war to get one of those things, he's right.

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That means a bit less if, when the war on the horizon needed fighting anyway, he committed in advance to every war. No need to say so.


Worth a war doesn't necessarily mean it'd end the existing one. It did sound really useful when I asked the prince about it earlier.

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They could definitely kill a Vala in principle. It wouldn't be as easy as getting our hands on one.

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And that is itself not very easy. Well. Getting secure here should be a good step.

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Yep. And recruiting, which has been going well, and buying the King time to furiously invent, which he is doing. The Silmarils only took him a Year and a half.

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Really? Wow. Does that mean we can expect more Silmarils, or something else about as capable, that soon?

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No, because he's been spending a lot of his time on necessary but less force-multiplier-y projects like portable means of distilling water and better enchanted swords and armor - we just trimmed the instruction set for a good enchanted armor, now it only takes a hundred fifty days to make... And the Enemy burned down his library and destroyed all his notes. But in a hundred years, probably.

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A hundred Years. Still much better than not, but...

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We should have had hidden copies of everything in the libraries. It's so hard to reconstruct it all from memory - so much of it was test results from tests we no longer have the infrastructure to conduct -

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Not his worst crime, but it can go on the list.

How's the reconstruction going here? It looks like you've made another impressive round of progress while I was gone.

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The walls'll stand if he comes again, now we've just got to figure out what doesn't decay in these environmental conditions and accordingly what we should be using for houses and so forth, make everything sufficiently pretty...

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Finding things that don't decay might not be worth it, might have to settle for repairing or replacing houses every several Years.
That one's a bit of a human perspective on it, though.

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People won't feel at home in houses they have to replace every few Years. We're running trials of all kinds of preservation techniques, though. We'll figure it out.

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That and the beauty requirement are constraints humans wouldn't have, all I can say is good skill.

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Thanks. Want to talk with prince Nelyafinwe?

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Yes, I should fill him in on Doriath.

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And a minute later, hello, Amber! How are you doing? You made it out to Doriath?

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There and back again. They're friendly, for now, mostly because of all the not being overrun by orcs.

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Our pleasure on the not being overrun with orcs! How's the King, is it Elwe?

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It's Elwe.

I don't think they'll do anything worse than shut the borders and refuse to talk to us, once they find out, and if it takes long enough even that can get– mitigated.

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Do you think so? How?

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Magic.

Melian caught us catching harvest elementals, it was either explain the whole thing or find a way to break out by force. We did end up giving her magic like you suggested.

She'll probably do the demesne ritual eventually. The same one we used to cross the Ice, except she'll cover an unprecedented area using it the way it's supposed to be. One of the downsides is that if a practitioner never leaves their demesne it risks ceasing to exist with them in it, and the way to avoid that is make sure there are a lot of relationships between people on the inside and outside. Or Others or even things, but mostly people. Cutting us off would put Doriath at risk.

The King hopes they'll at least take in families as refugees even after they find out, and having people from our hosts in Doriath would play into this really neatly.

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And if they do cut us off, how do we protect them from that? Can one-sided relationships do it?

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Theoretically...
What matters is that they're doing things and affecting the outside world. The spirits can't just forget they exist, because otherwise how did all this stuff happen or why did this person say that. And if Melian decides to cut Doriath off from the rest of the world, she could cut it off really effectively to where no information gets out at all.

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At least she knows that's disastrous for everyone in it, and is not by reputation reckless?

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I'm not worried about her doing it. And even if she does expel all of us, we're not the only source of outside connections.

I didn't mention this there because I don't know if it's a reasonable request or not. But if you send a palantir it'd mean a zero-risk way of talking to people on the outside, specifically, Noldor, and might encourage her to do the ritual sooner.

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...this touches again on something confidential even from my cousins, can I rely on your discretion?

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If it's the same terms as last time, where I'll act as if I don't know it to keep the secret but don't have to actively convince them of anything.

 

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Yep. So we don't know the extent of the Enemy's mind control but the upper bound is 'here we are, not slaves' and the lower bound is extensive ability to manipulate the experiences and perceptions of people in his power. The Valar deny having abilities like those, which if they're not lying just means it'd be against their natures to use them in that Vala-way where against their nature is in fact prohibitive.

 

The palantiri work by putting the interlocutors in the same place for magical purposes - for osanwe particularly. Giving one to Doriath is in a very significant sense putting everyone who uses one in Doriath. I don't know how that interacts with Melian's new abilities as a practitioner.

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It shouldn't, she hasn't done much of the practice aside from basic telling spirits to do things—shamanism to be polite—and doesn't have any avenue to learn anything like mind control. I don't see it being much more dangerous than sending it to her last week would be.

Do you expect it'd count as the same place for magical purposes when it's an unrelated kind of magic?

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I don't know. I had a lot of hesitations about any stone-holder being essentially in Doriath even when it was only the ordinary power she exerts over the place. Now, it sounds like if she drags it out of existence, she plausibly takes them with...

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Theoretically, but not very plausibly. Dragging bystanders down mostly happens when there's loads of bad karma as well as insufficient connections; that's the weight that does the metaphorical dragging. And Melian's going to have pretty great karma. The other possibility is to snap the connection with them. They forget everything but the general idea that there was a kingdom like everyone else, but they'll be safe. That's a lot more likely if they're mostly attached to people on the outside. It's Doriath's inhabitants that'd be at risk, possibly including the younger refugees eventually.

It's still very unlikely this happens at all; they could get by with just the Enemy and his forces if they had to.

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In that case I'll ask the King about it, and advise that we send one.

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Good to hear.

Why is the colocation thing secret? The danger would almost never come up outside this very specific situation...

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Has some other implications which are apparently obvious to people cleverer than I.

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(Notably absent: "and not to me or which have not been explained to me.")

Okay. Um, other things I needed to talk about were that I'm not splitting the elementals we collected like we did the ghosts; I had to promise they wouldn't be used against Doriath and I can't actually guarantee that because of your oath.

Also there are Dwarves, who are great, and there's some technology I should describe to the inventors here.

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We can set aside a greenhouse for the local refugee population, with a rule against any of the Noldor using it? Though that might still not work because I think if events did put us at odds with Doriath they'd side with us, they don't like Doriath much.

Technology sounds incredibly valuable. Do you have time to sit down and do that now? This is Dwarven technology? Do we need to go to Doriath to meet Dwarves?

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We can export food, as long as any Silmaril situation isn't too sudden you can just not use what we send you when you march.

The limiting factor on technology is that a lot of the best things are externally obvious and the Enemy would get even more use out of copying it than we would from having it. Also that I'd rather not be in a room with your father if it's avoidable. For discretion reasons, not personal ones.

There are Dwarves in Doriath, but those are the ones who were willing to take the job. They have. Good reason to dislike the Elves there.

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Oh?

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Mass homicide.

Dwarves don't have osanwe, they're also immune to it, the Elves thought they were funny-looking animals, they hunted them. Maybe it was reasonable with the knowledge they had, I don't know what it's like to rely on a sense that suddenly stops identifying who's a person, but. They hunted them.

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He sends an emotion: speechless strangled horror.

Eru.

 

Don't think it's a remotely reasonable mistake, but I guess we until recently were never hungry - it speaks very well of the Dwarves that they live in Menegroth anyway - ugh. Okay.

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Most Dwarves don't. It's a high-paying job because no one wants to do it, plus they say they don't want to leave the people who killed their families or friends or compatriots to the Enemy by not selling weapons. You know, kind of like we're expecting Elwe to do to us later.

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Plus I imagine it's better for them if there's some nice organized place with an army out distracting the Enemy. Do your objections to being in the same place as my father extend to someone bouncing him the conversation so he can ask questions no one's thought of, do they extend to him listening through the ears of someone present...

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It's about information, not geography. He seems likely to get much further with less to go on, especially once I get talking about technology, and I don't necessarily trust him not to hold off on building the visible-but-useful things that the Enemy shouldn't know about. I did consider just sending descriptions and diagrams of discreet options, but I was going to be here anyway.

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We are not going to let the Enemy get his hands on things he shouldn't know about. If you're confident you can identify everything that can be done discreetly then it amounts to the same, I suppose.

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Mostly the same. The risk tolerance difference is pretty likely to matter, which is why all the not mentioning some of the most potentially powerful but obvious things.

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That suggests these technologies can be considered more discretely than I'd expect - in general, advances have lots of implications for apparently unrelated fields - it's really a shame my cousins don't have a competent engineering team, that'd be the ideal way to do it...

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Most of the implications would be for other things likely to be discrete or hard to reverse engineer. I can't picture it leading to the really tempting risks.

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All right. Who would you like to talk with?

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Maybe Curufinwe? Anyone who fits the criteria of being capable of filling in a lot of gaps since I only know a few designs in enough detail, while not being Fëanáro himself.

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I'll ask him to come on over. How far out are you?

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Far out?

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When can we expect you?

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I'll be the rest of the way over in a medium-sized lump of minutes.

...clocks. Clocks are definitely going on the list.

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Then I won't ask him to abandon the greenhouses quite yet. Mind if I sit in? I don't know which end of a chisel to hold but the engineers all imagine their supplies appear magically on their doorstep and their labor is perpetually hanging around waiting to be in demand.

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Not at all.

The other thing you should know, the Dwarves' society is as far as I can tell powered entirely by economics. Not useless at all.

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Oooh. We'll have to send emissaries.

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Definitely. And don't make the mistake Doriath did, where it looks like they only care about gold and are less persons for it.

The emissaries will also find out about some copiable and very conspicuous technology I sold. Just don't have people start making it here or deploying it against the Enemy.

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There are a lot of really good reasons to have currency and we're not going to conclude that the things people want from us are the things they want, period. No worries. And I was assuming you wouldn't share anything anywhere that you really don't want us to know? I do in fact have a pretty competent intelligence division.

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Steam in particular I'm not hiding from you. Pretty confident you'd agree about it being obvious and copiable before it becomes very useful.

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Let us know if you're planning a trip out to the major Dwarven population centers; them we could send a palantir. 

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I'll make sure to tell you if it turns out to be before you've sent people.

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Thanks. How are my cousins doing?

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About as well as we could expect, if slower without the oaths. Getting settled in. They've got actual borders already, I think they'd count as a country now.

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I'm very glad.

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Did you ever standardize on safe phrasings for the oaths, by the way? If it goes too long with people swearing whatever they think they need, someone's going to say the wrong thing eventually. May as well minimize the risk.

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We did, yes. We've also backed off the pace a little now that a lot of the required work is intellectual and harder to do stressed and sleep-deprived.

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Good. On both counts.


Over the not-currently-measurable minutes she approaches Feanorian territory and walks the last stretch.

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And is escorted into a workshop. Amber, Maitimo says, my brother Curufinwë.

I am told not to be curious where you learned this, he says, and I find not being curious hard, so you should distract me by going ahead.

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Nod. Pleased to meet you, Curufinwë.

Electricity! Light bulbs! Something that is probably much too vague to actually be a radio transmitter because really, who knows that one! Steam power with an explanation of the secrecy thing, and no mention of guns. Lenses, since that came up as a thing Elves don't have on hand and it might not be because they don't have a use for them! She runs through whatever comes to mind as explicable from a world full of black boxes.

(And clocks.)

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He asks a lot of questions. How people with this technology copy books, how people with this technology do mining, how people with this technology do refining, how about agriculture...

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Some of the questions have clear answers, more of them get generalities or an "I have no idea," the agriculture one she has to dance around the fact that there's usually a sun involved...

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Weaponry we can't use unless we can disguise it as something we already have, but we should probably be prepared for the Enemy to have it - how does this society fight wars -

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If you mean what kinds of things do the weapons do, specialized versions can kill people given only a straight line to point it at them. If you mean how do they work, the Enemy is much less likely to get it if I don't spread that around than if I do. And he'd get more use out of it than we would.

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He looks at Maitimo for a few minutes, who is looking neutrally back.

All right.

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And back to exposition.

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Eventually they have enough to go off and questions don't seem the best use of time. They'll try to build a building large enough to have electricity inside without being viewable from any distance; everything else he can try at a smaller scale in the workshop. Thank you. We'll let you know once we've built on this.

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Good l– good skill.

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A distracted nod. Maitimo smiles and holds the door open for Amber. That'll keep us busy for months.

 

Its origins will also be hard to explain.

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Yeah. I was hoping to pass it off as sourceless, like how I as first human showed up with a language and everything so why shouldn't I know random uses of physics. But that wouldn't have flown even before getting into things that only make sense with a civilization behind them.

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The Enemy had at his side when he darkened Valinor a monster from beyond the Void. 

You can fly.

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He had a what.

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No one mentioned that? He sends a mental impression, though it's not really an image because no one really properly saw it -

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I mostly just heard 'killed the Trees.'

Um. OK. How do we know it's from beyond anything in particular?

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We don't. Our legends say she descended from the darkness that surrounds Arda, the Void, made of nothing. 

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That would be terrifying if true. Who started the legends?

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All of the lore of the building of Utumno, which is the time period when first she is said to have arrived, was preserved in song, can't really speak to authorship. The Valar corrected us on lots of things but not on that one; maybe because we were right, maybe because we don't know.

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And if they didn't correct you because they don't know, there's a pretty good chance they didn't know because it—she?— is an Other.

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I thought they didn't tend to be obvious to non-practitioners?

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They don't. Problem is, I could imagine that cloud of...anti-light...being a way to stay nonobvious. Maybe I'm just being paranoid; the Enemy would have had to meet her somehow.


Does anyone know why he needed her, or why she needed him?

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Supposedly she drinks light. He offered her - I'm not sure, an opening to get into Valinor, a distraction while she ate the Trees - and he promised to give her the spoils of sacking Formenos, too. It is very unlikely that we're mistaken enough about what happened that they never met, or coordinated inadvertently, or anything in that vein - I think -

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So they had some kind of an explicit deal, that at least suggests she's not an Other.

Do we know anything about what he thinks she is?

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No idea. Non-practitioners having deals with Others is impossible?

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It can happen, there aren't a lot of absolutes in magic, it just usually doesn't. And there could be whole categories of exceptions I don't know about. The most common deal case is some kind of a trick, where the human predictably goes beyond the terms of the deal and gets an entertainingly ironic punishment. This sounds like an honest mutual benefit for the both of them.

And if she's what I'm thinking she sounded like, I've never heard of one of them negotiating with non-practitioners.

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Well, he is a Vala. And they did fight, after sacking Valinor, the whole north's scarred with it and the locals told us all about it.

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Scarred how? I might have to go see what the north looks like. This could be an even bigger deal than something that can fight the Enemy would have to be.

Unless he killed her. That'd be nice.

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What do you think she might be?

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A demon.

They're among the most powerful Others there are, and they're malevolent. A lot of them have a darkness theme, they're supposed to be very old, and if there are any monsters beyond the Void the larger demons are decent candidates.

They destroy things, and what they destroy can be replaced but not regained. There are very few absolutes. That's one of them. 

I don't know if this is true of your world, but ours is on a time limit. Nothing is perfectly efficient, in a few billion or trillion years the universe runs out of usable energy. Demons are the magical side of that. If free, they eradicate. Eventually, and we're talking far enough in the future that it doesn't matter for practical purposes, everything's gone. This is widely believed to be inevitable.

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That does sound a lot like what we know of Ungoliant. The Valar were under the impression that breaking the Silmarils would fix the Trees, though....

 

Arda's on a time limit for a different reason; it's fated eventually to be replaced by a perfected version. Don't think we have what you have.

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And the Valar are probably right? I'd like to say that proves she's not a demon. But it might depend on the mechanics of how the Trees worked and what she did to kill them. If a demon cuts me with the irrevocable thing, it isn't going to heal. But that doesn't mean the blood won't clot before I bleed out, or that it can't be replaced afterward. And if I did lose too much blood, it wouldn't stop a really good transfusion from saving me.

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They're killable? You said Moringotho might have done it -

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They're probably killable. Few absolutes. I've never heard of it being done.

A spectacularly successful practitioner a thousand years ago got most of them sealed and locked up, somewhere. Now they only really get to earth when someone summons one, which happens more often than never because they're powerful and capable of dealing. The anti-demon strategy is pretty much to find diabolists and make them stop.

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And if she got here on her own, she'd have no particular reason to bargain with Melkor?

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She would, if she wanted to destroy the Trees and couldn't do it on her own. It's just that bargaining with non-practitioners doesn't occur to most Others and demons don't seem likely to be exceptions.

If she's a non-demon Other I'll be really relieved.

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You haven't seen a Vala, right? Have any practitioners? They might strike an Other as worth bargaining with.

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It's not a question of worthy. Noticeable might be closer. Others don't typically sense the world the way we do. An ice elemental might see cold, and the terrain causing one shape of the ice formations rather than another, and so on, and then "thing the practitioner says" gets arbitrarily tacked on to the end there. He wouldn't have that.

Though it would fit with the weird distortions around Melian and the invisible Maia or Vala at the trap. Spirits are paying some attention at least...

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If it's a demon what do we do about it?

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There are defenses. I don't know them.

The rules of thumb should still apply. If an Other has a theme with a direct opposite, it's probably physically vulnerable to that. Light sounds like a good bet. If it's really powerful that won't do more than inconvenience it, it did manage to get to the Trees after all, but it's something. And this symbol, she sketches out the Seal of Solomon, comes from the guy who neutralized a lot of them a hundred Years ago. Now it's more general-purpose protection from a lot of Others including most demons. Standing in this diagram charged with something, usually blood, can get you from dead to cornered.

Mostly what we do if it's a demon is hope we don't have to face it. Where was it last seen?

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Valley of Dreadful Death. North of where Doriath's vaguely supposed to be.

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That's potentially in the demesne ritual's hailing range of Doriath. Melian mentioned it when I asked where there might be Others coming from...

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So making Doriath a demesne might require a fight with a demon?

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It might require giving Ungoliant a chance to challenge Melian. If Ungoliant is an other and if she's in range. It wouldn't have to be a fight, but if it's a demon there are no good options.

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Melkor betrayed her and they had that fight, can she be convinced to get him back for it?

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No idea.

If she's not a demon then the demesne challenge is a weak negotiating position to start from, since the stakes if you win are "the challenger goes away." If she is...making deals with demons is the worst karma, and for very good reasons.

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I'll take your word for it. Can the bad karma affect the Enemy? Of course, he probably has bad enough karma anyway...

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Good point. Yeah, using demons would absolutely be a way for non-practitioners to get karma problems if it ever came up.

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Is betraying a demon better or worse than keeping a deal with them?

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For a practitioner worse. You'd be forsworn and then it or anything else would be allowed to eat you. For a non-practitioner who somehow landed in a deal, probably better. It's the sending it off to do things that's the problem, and that would have already happened, but non-enforced lies are on a way smaller scale than anything involving demons.

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Enemy's not retroactively forsworn if he happens to figure out magic, right? And the karma for past deeds doesn't get even worse? 

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Both true. And he probably isn't going to negotiate with Ungoliant again.

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Very much doubt it. 

 

If Doriath's currently receptive to a diplomatic envoy, do they want us to just walk around in the woods until they decide whether to extend an invitation, or what?

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I think they've already decided they will. So just until they've verified that no one involved works for the Enemy. I'll tell you where the borders are but I doubt it's possible to simply walk into Doriath without Melian actively allowing it.

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That's what our intelligence had suggested also. So we'll just send some even-tempered people who can swear to things and will appreciate being in a proper Elven kingdom again - he sighs longingly - well, appreciate it unusually much... and hope they're merely kicked out when the truth comes out.

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They won't be executed or anything. Though they might still be kicked out even if Doriath happens to be under attack right then.

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And to be fair to Doriath it's not as if they'd have particularly appealing other options. We'd kick people out if we found good reason to think it wasn't safe to have them around.

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I might buy that if I had never heard of either variety of binding promise.

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Ex-prisoners of the Enemy won't swear not to harm anyone save in self-defense.

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We don't have the same limitation.

Do they ever say why not?

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They don't usually say but I'm starting to get a picture. - slight infohazard, you want it?

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I'll take it.

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The Enemy has pretty impressive capacity for time-dilation within his domain, and can also do hallucinations which are vividly detailed and don't have many or any tells - and he can tamper with memories, so if you do notice something's up he can correct that. Everyone released from Angband has hallucinated dozens of times that they were released from Angband, sometimes to years of peace and safety back at home, only to wake up one day back in Angband. They don't think they're out. 

And since the Enemy does this sometimes having in fact erased even the memory they were captured in the first place, they don't think anyone can reasonably be in the position of 'confident they're not in Angband'. 

And Angband is sufficiently bad that most people who've survived it will tell you that, in fact, there's no goal at all that could possibly make the risk of capture worth it, that if people understood what they were facing they'd commit suicide en masse. 

If they don't ask us to kill them it's just because this hallucination is momentarily less bad than what they'll wake up to if they prematurely end it with their death. 

 

 

And swearing to things under those conditions would be very silly.

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That's minor?

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You've got the magic that enforces arbitrary laws on, and removes its protection from, anyone who knows it exists.

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Barely true, but good point.

Do the hallucinations ever involve the Halls of Mandos, do they at least know they're free once they die?

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I'm not sure. Most ex-prisoners of Angband aren't reembodied but that could be for many reasons other than not really believing it. We did have a discussion of whether we should kill people whose preference if they believed this was reality would be to die.

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I was thinking Ungoliant might be able to kill people permanently if she's a demon. But if she's a demon that would be all kinds of bad idea, even if it was what they wanted.

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I don't know if that'd be what they wanted. A lot of them, probably, but they're also talking to someone they think is the Enemy, there are incentives there not to reveal your actual preferences...

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So we couldn't be sure, even on top of everything else.

Mind control...

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Different kind than the kind your magic can do.

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It's relevantly similar. In that neither should exist.

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We are going to figure out how to kill him. We are going to have weapons that reduce Angband to dust.

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Thanks for the certainty. I always stop at "it's winnable."

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If I'm wrong I'll be in no position to suffer from having spoken falsely anyway.

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Neither would I, what with the time scales you're planning on. It's just a good habit that gets really annoying sometimes.

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I've noticed that. It's not my primary reason for not considering becoming a practitioner but it's definitely a consideration.

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Yeah.

I should warn Melian about Ungoliant soon, so there's no risk of her starting without knowing. How long do you think it'll be before there's a decision about the palantir?

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Next time my father surfaces, it's not worth interrupting him over. So within a week.

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And she's on a Maia's time scale, so that's practically immediate.

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It'd stun me if she decided to conduct the demesne ritual in less than a year. I'm actually a little surprised she became a practitioner at once but I suppose she needed to determine whether you were telling the truth before you left. 

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I guess. Seems a bit extreme if that was why.

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Yes. Though she's not taking any risks, is she? I doubt she could lie anyway, benevolent Maiar generally can't.

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At all? Weird. I'll keep it in mind in case I ever need some inconclusive evidence on that.

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The Valar and Maiar have this thing where - their goals and beliefs and actions are all the same, they can't weigh tradeoffs and they can't do something they don't want to be doing or don't endorse doing - it's very hard to explain because it is very alien to the Eldar. So if it's not in a Maia's nature to lie then they wouldn't, and there's a sense in which they couldn't.

Permalink Mark Unread

And this tracks benevolence because, well I guess there's no reason it wouldn't.

Permalink Mark Unread

The clusters are loosely 'as benevolent as a fundamentally alien entity gets', which is not exceptionally so, 'completely orthogonal to Elven values', and 'evil'. The benevolent cluster mostly cannot kill innocent people for any reason, including as a mercy or to save more lives or something, will at least nominally seek consent to mind-control you but often does it without realizing it, and will not threaten people or respond comprehensibly to threats. The orthogonal cluster mostly spend their time singing to one specific individual tree or making sure there are no purple corals in a coral reef or something, though Huan'll help us out if we ask because we're Tyelcormo's pack, sort of. The evil ones seem to know exactly what hurts incarnates most and desire to do that, and also want to overthrow the Valar and Eru.

Permalink Mark Unread

So only the evil ones are well-informed? That goes beyond bizarre and into scary. I'd say it implies someone went and converted them, but if their goals and actions are the same then it might mean the clusters started with that criterion...

I think Melian is closer to the orthogonal cluster, just with a much broader focus. Her people matter because they're part of her domain. At least I was spinning everything as "...and then that helps us which means Doriath gets safer."

Permalink Mark Unread

The evil ones spent more time interacting with us. It might be that at first they were just as bad at it, but they found us first - Melkor was convincingly not-evil for a hundred Years in Tirion while subtly manipulating the Noldor into the current mess...

Permalink Mark Unread

A hundred Years. Are you rounding up or down?

Permalink Mark Unread

Technically it was ninety-seven before the Darkening happened.

Permalink Mark Unread

Good.

I was worrying, what if Ungoliant is a demon who pays attention to him and so are all the others, and the only reason Suleiman was so successful was because Melkor wasn't being openly evil—

Good to know this isn't as terrifying as it possibly could be. Timelines wouldn't match up.

Permalink Mark Unread

Suleiman is the person who bound most of the demons?

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah. He'd go for the biggest baddest ones he could get, force them to submit, and send them after the next ones. At least that's what went down in history. If it's true it was stupidly dangerous, but he could have been just that good.

Permalink Mark Unread

Is it possible Ungoliant is one he missed? If she was in our world, not yours...

Permalink Mark Unread

I don't think anyone says he got all of them. And even the ones he did seal are still dangerous, especially if they've ever been summoned. If she's not a demon it's not because of him.

Permalink Mark Unread

Before Melkor lived in Tirion he was in prison, so if anything I'd have expected anything he was affecting to get harder about a thousand years ago.

Permalink Mark Unread

And he was imprisoned up through a bit after Suleiman's time. So the Enemy is not responsible for a significant fraction of the worst things that have ever happened to a world he isn't on.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yep. He was imprisoned for, hmm, the ten thousand years before that? Approximately?

Permalink Mark Unread

Recorded history doesn't go back that far; might as well have been forever as far as humans would be able to check.

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All right. Well, I am glad things could possibly be worse. I'll talk with people about the possibility we need to fight Ungoliant in addition to Morgoth.

Permalink Mark Unread

You probably don't. Not more than anyone else, if she hasn't been going out of her way to attack people before. I'll warn the other practitioners; if she does come by here they'll stand out to her.

Permalink Mark Unread

Okay. I have a lot of experimental notes for my cousins - what grows here, though I suppose that's less urgent if you've got magic for it now, construction and decay related experiments, things in that vein...

Permalink Mark Unread

You might be able to skip some of the construction experiments by hiring Dwarves. They think we're strange for building above ground, but they've been building outside Valinor for a while and might know how the experiments turn out.

Permalink Mark Unread

How do they circulate air, or do they have absurd quantities of plants, or do they not need to at all - I suppose we should just ask them, shouldn't we. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Probably. I didn't notice them not breathing; they've probably got some kind of a solution.

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Envoy is collecting the supplies to head over there. There's a scouting team coming through the pass in a few minutes which can confirm the area's remained clear of orcs, and then I'll have them on their way. Care to stay for dinner, by the way? It felt impolite to ask back when you were trying to keep things from me.

Permalink Mark Unread

No, thank you. I should start on–

(there's something urgent enough, probably)

–seeing if I can set something up for water purification. I heard that was one of the current problems?

Permalink Mark Unread

There's a solution in the engineering notes for our cousins, though if magic's more convenient we'd be happy to do it that way.

Permalink Mark Unread

It's convenient. I just don't know how scalable it'll be. "One person, large margin of error, indefinitely" isn't nearly enough.

Permalink Mark Unread

Then they'll probably prefer the solution in our notes, portable, scales easily enough. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, you had one completed. I'd be happy to spread it around.

Permalink Mark Unread

Thank you. Convey our best wishes.

Permalink Mark Unread

Of course.

And thank you for the notes, those can only help.

Permalink Mark Unread

I certainly hope so. Good skill.