After Cam's magic but still basically human boyfriend has fallen asleep and Cam finds he is not tired enough to do the same, Cam goes downstairs.
"Okay. I'm not great at teaching how to do thoughts private but you pick a - way of separating thoughts you want to share and thoughts you want to keep secret, like, imagining that your secret thoughts are in your bed snuggled up cozy, and your not secret ones are standing on the windowsill playing? Or your secret ones are all wrapped up and your shared ones are open. Or your secret ones are under the water and your shared ones are above like an island...I really am sorry. Everyone learns how to do it so if someone is sharing thinking things it is always because they meant to be."
Elves hear really well; Cam appears a note at him. Tiny Maitimo is over there upset because I freaked him out, he reads minds but in a weirdly polite way where if you metaphorically mark them private he doesn't hear them so he can't be the same kind as the previous Elves.
" - well, fantastic, then we just have to. Tell them not to do that. Maitimo, Melkor really shouldn't get paroled, it's really awful if he does, we should probably talk to some people from your world about that. Cam knows - another world like yours except the Elves do not read unchipped peoples' minds - and they paroled their Melkor and it was a really really terrible idea."
"Yeah, they can always send thoughts to each other but they usually can't send them to people like us who are different, or read ours. If no one's in reach of your door we can maybe send them an owl, I guess. Cam's not mad at you, it's really good you came through here and you did the right thing staying."
"You're really good at being what people need you to be and this is really good and it will let you accomplish a lot but there are a few respects in which it does not serve you and that is one of them so you're gonna stop. You didn't get it perfect. Even when you're big and unfairly smart because of future brain stuff you won't get it perfect. So, figure out what to do now and do that."
"I'm not saying you can't pull it off or that I wouldn't dearly prefer it. But if Tiny You can't get ahold of anyone to hold his door for him - we can't kidnap him to hold access to his world for however many more months, he's scared and little and - and we can't abandon his door without something better on tap either."
"Hi. My world has magic - different kind of magic than you're used to - and there's a spell called the Killing Curse. It kills people. We have no idea if it works on daeva. Complicating matters, it can only be cast for evil reasons - so, we can't just cast it on a consenting demon. I happen to know someone who is not a very good person and could be persuaded to try it, but - if you change your mind, there's a point at which it'd probably be too late, and it'd require being conscious for a while though I can use different magic on you in the meantime so you don't have to actually be doing anything."
"Hi! I'm going to go meet somebody to run some experiments on the interactions of magic and daeva invulnerability. It's probably safe, but I would like to have a plan to leave if he decides he is disinclined to let me without a lesson in summoning. The fastest way of doing a distress signal we could think of was to have someone on hand and snap the binding if there's any kind of trouble. Can you, like, safely-for-the-inhabitants turn the roof of a house to air?"
And he heads in.
There are footsteps. There's a squeaky gate. The microphone continues to work fine.
"Way. It really has been too long. You're all grown up."
"You said that last time, too."
"I was lying to you."
"Yes, you were."
"You always were a clever boy."
"That's how I remember it, too," Timothy says amiably.
"Who's your friend?"
"I suppose you wouldn't believe me if I claimed not to know his name."
"I suppose I wouldn't."
"You don't need to know it, though. I want you to kill him for me."
"Not all that grown up, then."
"Is that the mark of a man?"
"It's an important milestone."
"I'm saving it for marriage."
Laughter.
Timothy doesn't join in.
"It's the mark of a man to be willing to do his own work, at least."
"I apparently don't want him dead evilly enough. I did try. It was embarrassing, or would have been if there'd been surviving witnesses."
"- come on in and explain yourself."
"Gladly."
Shuffling and coughing and -
"He can't be damaged by conventional means. You can stun him, but he wakes up in forty seconds or so. You can deprive him of sleep but he doesn't get past mildly exhausted. You can starve him but he doesn't get very hungry. You can try to slit his throat, any kind of weapon, you'll get a shallow little cut.
The other Unforgivables work fine."
"Who is he?"
"Muggle. The ritual does not have a very good success rate, yet, but this one was a success. Coloration changes aren't a consequence of the ritual, they're an adverse reaction to trying eighty times the lethal dose of the Draught of Living Death."
"What happened to Azkaban?"
"It's on the Moon. Look with a good telescope."
"Why?"
"I said I'd give you a location, not an explanation."
"You didn't say you were asking for an Unforgivable."
"In the last few weeks I've cast dozens, and I've dismantled the prison you'd go to if you were ever convicted, and we both know you never would be. What, exactly, are you afraid of?"
"Imperio."
"I'm all grown up," says Timothy irritably. "You want things from me, you'll have to ask."
"I want to know how to do it."
"No. Try again."
"And if I said you aren't going to leave here without telling me how to do it."
And then a sharp crack, and a cry -
"That could've been your wand," Timothy observes mildly, "but I need you to kill someone for me. You wouldn't say something like that. It is unwise to threaten someone with capabilities you know you don't know."
"All right, then, I want a promise."
"You have someone here to cast -"
"No, no, no magic, just your promise as the man you're trying to grow into."
"I see."
"I want you to remember me as a valued ally to whom you are much indebted."
"I do, and I am."
"And when you take over the world, I do not want to die and I do not want to be imprisoned and I do not want to be deprived of my health, sanity, memories, or magic."
"Once I take over the world I will expect from all my subjects compliance with my laws. I will not hold against you anything you did before I took over the world, and if you break my rules I won't deprive you of anything more than what's necessary to ensure future law-abiding, how's that?"
Laughter. "I'll take it." Pause, a sort of thudding sound -
"I told you that wouldn't work."
"Yes, you did. I am entitled to attempt it myself. Shush." Another thudding sound. A crackling one. A swooshing one. And then - "Avada Kedavra."
"Fascinating," says Timothy neutrally.
"Avada Kedavra. Avada Kedavra."
"Thank you."
"How is it done -"
"Maybe later."
"You're miscalculating, because you're a child. A world where people were safe like this would have fewer problems - people take drastic measures because they fear for their lives -"
"I don't want you to die. I don't want anything to die. I might tell you the ritual later, though it hasn't gotten any safer in the last five minutes. I am not going to tell you now."
"All right, all right. Stay for tea?"
"I don't think so."
Timothy leaves. He dismisses the demon.
"So," he says, "London?"
They summon a fairy and ask for a ride out to somewhere near Jupiter. They are on their way to Jupiter when he gets the note.
That they'd disable summoning in their world and in mine - I guess we need disambiguating names, now - is a risk. No convenient way to check if summoning works in mindreading Arda at all in 1225 or thereabouts, you'd have to go over to Endorë and track down the Dwarves. Easy enough to check if it works in my world but it'd require sending a message to Endorë and then having the door open until someone dies. Vengeance-wise I don't actually think they'd kill you but they might Doom you, ask [a list of names] if they can figure out what if anything the Doom actually did.
"Did the Doom not come up? The Valar were pissed off about the ship theft massacre, they cursed all the fleeing Noldor and all who followed them, I went and pointed out that this was very irresponsible if it could extend to other worlds, they narrowed it to a hereditary thing...?"
And the designated Elves come in to the bar. "The obvious way to check, I think, is to try to pull the data off a bunch of chips of doomed and non-doomed people, see if there's a difference -"
"Minds're big, you wouldn't be able to tell by looking, but you could probably run a machine learning algorithm on it -"
"With a couple hundred thousand people as samples -"
"Yeah, it won't run overnight -"
"- if you could get the same people, before and after the Doom, that's a simpler inference problem -"
Timothy looks very confused.
"I'm a demon, my name is Cam, the door appropriates the locations of doors in other dimensions uncontrollably at random but given the presence of someone from the correct dimension in the bar can be maintained indefinitely. There are a lot of dimensions but we've been concerning ourselves with a handful so far."
"I'm a different species but I'm your son. The Bar can notice when people are alternate universe versions of people and also we are acquainted with another Arda with an adult Nelyafinwë Maitimo who is an alternate universe version of me and also this guy is very much what I remember being like when I was four. - You can meet the my-universe version of yourself in a bit, I sent him a message but time runs strangely within the interdimensional bar."
"I assume your world is different in some ways since in this one Elves can't read minds except of each other and specific other species, so other things might be different too, but Quenya's pretty similar far as I can tell and so on... Uh, the bar over there is sapient and has all publications ever and is good at recommending books if you narrow it down well enough."
" - I guess you're not even ahead of us, yet - Cam, when do they get electricity - wow, my alt's life must have been fascinating - uh, those are computers, my father will tell you the things you need to know to make sense of computers from a not-yet-at-electricity standpoint -"
"I think I'd rather just use conversation privacy spells, if you don't mind? It's less weird.
Um.
The Valar need to not parole Melkor. In the other Arda they parole him and he goes back to Endorë and starts a war and kills and tortures hundreds of millions of people."
"No, it's more complicated than that. The - alternate universe version of you - Melkor offered them a deal. He would - stop hurting people - and he was hurting so many people - he would swear never to do any of it again - does your kind of Elf have the oaths thing -"
"He swore very thoroughly to stop, forever. If we would destroy Valinor.
There was - a way to resurrect the Elves who'd die. So. Your alt decided it was worth it. And it worked. The war was over, Melkor can never do evil again. But the rest of the Valar and all of the Maiar who lived in Valinor are dead."
"I am not going to let things not be okay. You're - look, when you have as many people as there are in that picture of the city, you have to delegate some things, you can't be personally responsible for everything. I think you should delegate this particular thing."
"There are lots and lots of worlds out there and lots of people who would be our people if we knew them and all of them need your help and there is only so much of you. Your Valinor's safe. It'll be safe forever. I promise. - want to help me interview demons who want to adopt children from 1802 orphanages?"
"- my world is not as nice as Valinor and some kids had both their parents die and they don't have anyone to take care of them, and there's another world that doesn't have kids at all but some of the people in it might want to be parents - Cam did we get any mail while Hell wasn't going at a crawl -"
There are lots of people by the lake. They know his name and he doesn't know theirs; it is a little upsetting.
He kind of wants his parents to hug him for a long time but he doesn't tell anyone this because they would judge his parents for being neglectful and the way to avoid that is to make it seem like what his parents are doing is exactly what he wants.
He doesn't even know what his parents are doing.
He asks someone to teach him to read.
A while later some more people walk out by the lake and he doesn't know them so he goes over. He chants the letters in his head while he goes so he won't forget them and make the person who was teaching him feel as if it was wasted time.
"Don't cry," he says automatically. "Maybe you can imagine a million just from the rice but I'm trying and it's not working. I don't know if there are a million opinions on dogs, some of them might be repeats. ...it'd be better if I could know the real people -"
"Amriac, who has never met a small child in her entire life and understands them only as a sort of fictitious creature, met tiny you, and it just happened to come up in conversation that, oh, Cam killed fifty-five million people, and he didn't know what a million was and 'a thousand thousand' didn't cut it so she made a heap of rice and he was trying to go through all of the rice one a time imagining backstories for everybody before Michael kidnapped him for a broomstick ride."
"I know you weren't short of - things like that. But. Can't really accumulate too many.
If the Valar insist on talking to you about it, will you at least - explain all of the precautions you took and all of the alternatives you considered and - defend yourself -"
"Yeah. Our alts helped, Michael. My alt helped and he grew up there and he knew them and I think he really would rather have handed himself over to Morgoth for eternal torture but - but he wasn't prepared to hand billions of people over to that, and neither was yours, and neither was Dad's - they were there, and they're us, so it's exactly what you would have done in their place -"
"The other set of Valar might be able to fix it but the problem is that the Valar will probably disable summoning, might murder Cam, and apparently do 'collective mind-control' as punishment for things and I am guessing this is not a complete list of their drawbacks as a resurrection solution."
" - I mean, before Cam holed the planet, there were Valar, summoning was disabled, and the mind-control was a thing? And if someone had said to Cam 'instead you can push this button that ends the war exactly like you holed the planet but no one dies and none of those other things happen' -"
He doesn't want to ask Cam for the list, so he lets the kid borrow his own computer. The kid can't read. He tries reading it to him and tracing letters as he goes but that doesn't work because they don't share a language. Maitimo is snuggled on his lap frowning at the computer when Cam comes in.
"Amriac told this kid, who is me as an Elf again but tiny, that Cam killed fifty-five million people. He - wanted to get a feel for what a million was, so she made him a million grains of rice, and then he started naming them all so he'd know, and this freaked out Amriac pretty badly so she sent a message to Cam about it and now he's miserable and now Michael's taken Amriac out to go play with dragons and the kid, being a me, wants to know everyone who died and my other Elf alt, also being a me, does know and has a file of them."
"Last time they made summoning impossible, and that was even before a daeva had hurt anyone. They seem likely to do that again and we're waiting on learning whether Dwarf and human summoners from there daevafy because if they do, we can't let them do it. They also apparently mind-controlled all of the Elves as punishment for the ship theft massacre - we don't know what they did exactly, but what they said they'd do was make all things they attempted end in ruin and bring about treason and the fear of treason amongst them.
And then they're probably going to be mad at Cam."
"Yes, I do. Which is why I can't just ask him. The evil idiot gods who caused this entire nightmare in the first place are possibly going to murder him over it and I am not going to have him spend the interim fleeing from small children and looking only marginally better than he did with a Dementor around."
"Tiny Maitimo asked me if he'd done something wrong. The reason he wants to fix things is because the things are making the people in his presence sad and all he knows is that that's really bad, he's four, he doesn't have any concept of what the world should be like more sophisticated than 'these people around me should not be suffering' -"
"The small me is learning to read from an Elf because it turns out it's hard to teach someone to read if you don't speak or read their language, even with Milliways translating. Michael and Amriac went to Ireland to bother the dragons, Miranda's holding the door. The Elf sets are hanging out and presumably catching up the ones who just invented writing; I'm guessing it hasn't been very long for them because they would at some point go check on their tiny child."
"And it probably pretty much works for 'em, psychologically? They're all immortal and their world is pretty great and the only other world they know of is 25 lightyears off but everyone there is immortal too, and they invent their way along and then everything's post-scarcity and he could have pretty much gone until the war started without 'I am personally responsible for everyone I come across or hear about' being unhealthy as a habit. I think it will be good for him, losing it sooner."
"- weird."
"No," says one of the chip Elves, "yours is definitely the weird one."
"Oh, I believe that," he says. "But - why the difference, why would so much else be the same..."
"What's gravity like near the edges, what's gravity like in orbit - can you put things in orbit at all -"
"If it happens that there are no accessible solutions which don't endanger me, endangering me as much as necessary is fine, I'm not planning to insist on criminal justice proceedings appropriate to my native world or anything. But if summoning works as an immortality patch in spherical-planets-Arda that affects more people than are currently on the line."
"I'd be entitled to the services of at least one legal expert, various people would be called upon to remark on my likelihood to recidivize and my character and my extenuating circumstances and the technicalities of my arrest, the most impartial feasible evaluators would be empowered to hand down a verdict and sentence and to commute that sentence if they so chose, and the harshest punishment available would in my case be being summoned under a binding preventing me from doing anything illegal or leaving a specified area, at least if they expected me to comply with a summon."
"Aulë is kind and generous and knowledgeable and has no idea at all how incarnates work. You can teach him, but he doesn't learn like us either. But he made the Dwarves, and they're well-designed people with good lives, and he didn't cause trouble about Fëanáro running away from home - my guess is that he would take some time - less than either of us - to study all the facts and then he would want to go set everything right but he might need the others and they might be less reasonable."
The newcomers look very confused.
"We should put together a book for alts who don't know anything yet," says a chip Elf.
"I know some things," he says. "And you should see Nerdanel's sculptures."
"I bet the future can do that," she says. "Won't be impressive at all - Cam, can you make the sculpture I made of Maitimo last year, it's in the garden..."
And that is about as much non-technical non-linguistic discussion as one can get out of a room full of Fëanors. One of them makes a model of a flat planet, tampers with the gravity, demands to know if his alt has measured the acceleration of a falling object...
The Nerdanels exchange looks that are either deeply meaningful or accompanied by deeply meaningful osanwë conversation.
The new Fëanáro and Nerdanel look at each other and then start bouncing up and down excitedly. "We've got magic, we've got magic, we've got magic and a time-stopping bar -"
"Once Maitimo's grown up we can become omnipotent!"
"I love you!"
"I love you!"
The chip Elves are very uncomfortable.
"You use osanwë to write instructions to a piece of metal. Very very detailed instructions, and anything complicated is excruciatingly slow, computers as they were explained to us are fairly analogous only imagine you are directly inscribing all the ones and zeros with your mind. I do not think there are any principled limitations on what it can do - you could certainly become as powerful as a Vala -"
"Betcha we can do it in two thousand, with the computers to help, and inventing some things for memory and intelligence that will help us invent more complicated things. The children can wait two thousand years, that's not really so long and it'd be unfair to have them when we're not omnipotent, now that we know we might need to be..."
"He knows Aulë better than us so if he were to tell him it'd be because he thought it was warranted even given our reservations - which, I take it, come down to 'an alternate universe version of the Valar did a mind control thing and paroled Melkor, and it's unknown where he stood on both these things?"
"Soul Elves are from a flat planet on which Valinor and Endorë are continents. They have magical powers which might get them to Vala-quality power in as little as two thousand years. They are unwilling to have Tiny Maitimo's maternal grandfather miss his childhood and suspect said grandfather would notify Aulë if he found out about all this."
"That's a ridiculous amount of time even so. I am sure we'll come up with something better in two thousand years. Anyway, kiddo doesn't need to see Grandpa in, like, the next five years, right, that's like breakfasttime to an Elf, so we're set for the time being?"
"Limbo didn't come up - it's possible at least some of them didn't know about it in the way you might not be able to name an obscure South American culture which receives occasional missionaries from Europe and maybe exports cocoa beans but not very many of those - and since summoning was so rare, ex-summoner daeva were incredibly obscure and I think I didn't meet anybody who knew any."
Flip flip flip - "a bunch of Elves try to leap back, ask for help, the ships get lost mid-leap.
- eventually someone designs a different type of leap navigation, he's the one who gets through, the Valar debate executing him for coming to Valinor without permission but settle on forbidding him from ever entering any inhabited star system again -
- oh, Ulmo does Melian's forcefield thingy to an entire continent, good job Ulmo, raises the question of why the fuck the other ones weren't doing that -"
It's lengthy! It's also kind of annoying to read:
It is recorded by the Eldar that the Valar debated long the case of Finwe and Miriel, after the Statute was made, but not yet declared. For they perceived that this was a grave matter, and a portent, in that Miriel had died even in Aman, and had brought sorrow to the Blessed Realm, things which they before had believed could not come to pass. Also, though the Statute seemed just, some feared that it would not heal the death of grief, but perpetuate it. And Manwë spoke to the Valar, saying: 'In this matter ye must not forget that you deal with Arda Marred - out of which ye brought the Eldar. Neither must ye forget that in Arda Marred Justice is not Healing. Healing cometh only by suffering and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice. Justice worketh only within the bonds of things as they are, accepting the marring of Arda, and therefore though Justice is itself good and desireth no further evil, it can but perpetuate the evil that was, and doth not prevent it from the bearing of fruit in sorrow. Thus the Statute was just, but it accepted Death and the severance of Finwe and Miriel, a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, and therefore with reference to Arda Unmarred it was unnatural and fraught with Death. The liberty that it gave was a lower road that, if it led not still downwards, could not again ascend. But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru, but cannot be commanded to come when needed: patience must often long await it.
Then Aulë, friend of the Noldor and lover of Fëanáro, spake. 'But did this matter indeed arise out of Arda Marred?' he asked. 'For it seemeth to me that it arose from the bearing of Fëanáro. Now Finwe and all the Noldor that followed him were never in heart or thought swayed by Melkor, the Marrer; how then did this strange thing come to pass, even in Aman the Unshadowed? That the bearing of a child should lay such a weariness upon the mother that she desired life no longer. This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar. But the Eldar are the first Children of Eru, and belong to him directly. Therefore the greatness of the child must proceed from his will directly, and be intended for the good of the Eldar and of all Arda. What then of the cost of the birth? Must it not be thought that the greatness and the cost come not from Arda, Marred or Unmarred, but from beyond Arda? For this we know to be true, and as the ages pass it shall often be manifest (in small matters and in great) that all the Tale of Arda was not in the Great Theme, and that things shall come to pass in that Tale which cannot be foreseen, for they are new and are not begotten by the past that preceded them.' Thus Aulë spake being unwilling to believe that any taint of the Shadow lay upon Feanor, or upon any of the Noldor. He had been the most eager to summon them to Valinor.
But Ulmo answered: 'Nonetheless Miriel died. And death is for the Eldar an evil, that is a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, which must proceed there- fore from the marring. For if the death of Miriel was otherwise, and came from beyond Arda (as a new thing having no cause in the past) it would not bring grief or doubt. For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them. But the death of Miriel has brought sorrow to Aman. / The coming of Feanaro must proceed certainly from the will of Eru; but I hold that the marring of his birth comes of the Shadow, and is a portent of evils to come. For the greatest are the most potent also for evil. Have a care, my brethren, thinking not that the Shadow is gone for ever, though it is beaten down. Doth it not dwell even now in Aman, though you deem the bonds to be unbreakable?'
Thus Ulmo spake, who had dissented from the counsels of the Valar, when they brought Melkor the Marrer to Mandos after his defeat.
"There're like eight pages of that, what're you looking for in particular -"
"Oh, it came through fine to me, want me to read out how it's translating - or is 1800s English not that much better - anyway, all the rest of them say their piece and it's all like that, they dwell a lot on whether bad things are intended by Eru or not..." flip flip flip...
Said Manwë: "The Valar have not and must not presume certainty with regard to the wills of the Children. Nor, even were they certain in this one case concerning the fea of Miriel, would that unmake the union of love that once was between her and her spouse, or render void the judgement that constancy to it would in Finwe be a better and fairer course, more in accord with Arda Unmarred, or with the will of Eru in permitting this thing to befall him. The Statute openeth the liberty of a lower road, and accepting death, countenanceth death, and cannot heal it. If that liberty is used, the evil of the death of Miriel will continue to have power, and will bear fruit in sorrow.
'But this matter I now commit to Namo the Judge. Let him speak last! '
Then Namo Mandos spoke, saying: 'All that I have heard I have considered again; though naught pertinent to judgement hath been brought forward that was not already considered in the making of the Statute. Let the Statute stand, for it is just.
'It is our part to rule Arda, and to counsel the Children, or to command them in things committed to our authority. Therefore it is our task to deal with Arda Marred, and to declare what is just within it. We may indeed in counsel point to the higher road, but we cannot compel any free creature to walk upon it. That leadeth to tyranny, which disfigureth good and maketh it seem hateful.
"So - if they stuck to that they might be tolerable?"
Awww he is definitely pleased about that.
"Uh. The whatever-they-did-such-that-there-were-no-survivors-on-ships-trying-to-find-them, and the getting mad at the guy who did, is less promising but I can't find anything more than really brief accounts, there -
- and then there're the Elf war criminals, they probably killed upwards of a million people and the Valar asked them to surrender - unclear what they planned to do - but then let them go when they didn't surrender -"
"There's a range limit, it works on all the sapients in my world and if it doesn't work on Maiar I'd expect it to be either because they are magically resilient to mind-affecting magic in some way - but there's no mention of that, they can make oaths, so that doesn't seem likely - or because they have too much mind or too strangely-structured a mind for me to do anything with it. I don't know if they need to currently have an embodied form. I could cast it on someone invisible if I knew exactly where they were. A bunch of things - how much attention I'm spending on it, how directly I have to be controlling things, how easy it is to throw off - seem to improve with practice."
"I'm not an Elf, if I were an Elf then given how they count time I think I would in fact be seventeen - and look younger - and that seems like a reasonable philosophy if and only if it actually helps anything, so if you are functionally comfortable with the risk that I will turn myself over to a war crimes tribunal presided over by irresponsible alien gods should that prove necessary to return a bunch of entities I've never met to life, I'm not going to shoo you."
Meanwhile outside, he would like to walk on the water and starts singing the song for it.
It works fine, of course. All of the other Elves stare.
He stops singing and plops in and requires rescue and - "sorry, are we not supposed to run on this lake?"
"No, my lord prince can run on any lakes he wants, just... how were you doing that?"
"You haven't invented the song?" he says, surprised.
"Effects tend to be localized and limited in duration - usually to the length of the song, or not much longer - but if you move something it'll stay moved - most of the ones we know now were developed beside Cuivienen - grace and balance, warmth, calming a crying child, waterwalking, silent movement..."
"I've been wondering if any of our stuff has incidental telepathy interactions like how Occlumency is good enough as a private thoughts designation. Like, does that conversation privacy thing apply to telepathy, the same way it'd stop you from hollering into the next room. Or other interactions. Can air pressure from a demon making stuff break an Imperturbable container."
"Intent matters, matters less the more specifically it was phrased and once you start acting on one interpretation you can't then bend back around to a different interpretation - like, if I swore to tell Nerdanel before I started new projects, and then I stepped in here and met another Nerdanel, I could probably decide whether the oath applied to other universe versions of Nerdanel, but once I'd decided one way or the other my interpretation would be binding. If you swear by a Vala they can release you. If you swear by Eru he can release you but honestly I wasn't even sure Eru existed until my alts said that their Eru created a new species during the war and therefore probably does in fact exist. I think you can swear by Maiar, too, but I'm not sure. You can't swear by other people, not in the same way, but you could say something like 'until Nerdanel releases me I swear to tell her before I start new projects' and that'd have the same effect. You can be tortured or coerced into swearing things, but to a point, because intent if you say something under torture is pretty much 'to stop being tortured' and so any ambiguity bends in your favor. You can alter your beliefs and mental states by swearing things. You can't get new information from oaths - like, if I swore not to harm you, and then tried to trip a random stranger in the street but the stranger was you in disguise, the oath wouldn't do anything, it's acting off my current state of information. You can't do something you've sworn not to do; you can delay indefinitely doing something you've sworn to do, but it's unpleasant, and only works if there isn't a window of opportunity..."
"I'm not sure the test Miranda used will work for me, might not be able to disentangle intending to use Occlumency to ignore the potion versus just attempting to nope it - could test separately with other potions and find out if daeva can reject them like we can ordinary drugs -" Note.
"The spell would have to automate a lot of discriminatory capacity to not just deluge whoever was watching in householdy spells. Also it would be creepy. Also this is beside the point, we were trying to go over what things we can all do to see if they might mix usefully."
"It's possible your souls are just direct analogues that don't happen to be material, but chips admit of a lot of fairly mechanistic poking and prodding. Like, it would be possible in principle to fiddle with somebody's chip until an oath was removed, without being a Vala, even though we don't in fact know how to do that."
"Yeah, true. I'm not even sure the histories I read were from worlds with mes in them, Fëanáro is always mentioned and sometimes mentioned to have children but you'd expect me to do something during the war and if so I did not do anything worth mentioning, at least not at a first glance."
And they add a few dozen more potential interactions to the list - can you chip a flat Elf? Can you do most of the things that exist as chip blessings on a necklace? Can you duplicate tedious-to-make flat Arda artifacts with wizarding magic? Does summoning work in flat Arda - they don't want to try that one, lest they get the attention of the Valar - and does flat Arda have any sapients who might need to be taught summoning (Ents? Ents were mentioned in the book he read, do they have an afterlife and is there a way to tell other than asking Yavanna?) Can flat Arda Fëanáro guess what the flat Arda Silmarils were meant to do from notes from a future version of him who made them? How do songs work with muffling magic, with illusory sound magic, with people who don't have Elven levels of singing talent...
They are welcome to do that, although what with the time mismatch the establishment cannot be responsible if they leave their house only to discover that, for the house, 800,000 years have passed and in that time an intelligent termite swarm has entered the yard via alternate route and eaten it, or it has simply rotted away, or one of the people who wandered into the caves a while ago wanders out again and squats in their house, or whatever.
They will try building a house anyway; those sound like interesting things that could potentially go wrong! And if other people take up residence it would presumably be because they needed a place to live, so of course the Elves wouldn't begrudge them one!
They thank the bar and head outside to do that.
"If there were a man who wanted to marry a man, or a child, or a houseplant, or an animal, he could go to Lórien and then Lórien could change it so that he wanted to marry women, which is preferable, ethics aside, since it would mean his desires are actually achievable. Given that Eru asks us to pursue love within marriage, it would be very unreasonable of him not to extend an avenue of assistance to people who aren't able to do that."
"Mind-affectingness, maybe. I don't know, if you're going to have a norm it seems a whole lot crueller not to have any way to conform to it, and I'm not very comfortable saying that if such a way of conforming is denied to people, then they'll be forced to fight the norm, which is good because the norm ought to be gotten rid of, and the reason it ought to be gotten rid of is the suffering of the people with no way to conform to it."
"Your opinion doesn't bother me; it does bother me that a small child is likely to go get magic conversion therapy from a deity who to all appearances considers dispensing that service a more important use of his time than, say, doing anything whatsoever during gruesome wars that affect millions of people, to satisfy a taboo laid down by an overdeity who is even worse, because this dictate is considered important by people who do not require that their moral precepts make any inherent sense, whose observable behavior as far as I've seen is that this is more important to them than figuring out how to long-term contain the Melkors. But I'm not going to tell Elf I Literally Murdered that."
They get a recording recorded of the song. The recording works. It works sped way up, although not arbitrarily. When Cam's heard it enough times to sing it, it works for him too - though not as well, the lake feels wobblier to walk on and his feet get wetter - until he hits a note sharp and plunges into the lake.
They are fascinated!!! Indoor plumbing, it transpires, has not yet been invented, and electricity is so exciting! They get to redrawing. They mentally bounce each other revisions and bounce them to Cam and Timothy and their son too. Every few minutes one of them will suggest a tweak and they will look at each other and giggle and kiss.
"It could easily be that Aulë would in fact set everything right but however exemplary a deity he is in other respects he hasn't managed sufficient clarity to be predictable and I don't want more total people to die just so I won't have personally killed them," murmurs Cam.
"I did not have that much of a - complex - at that age, which means he must have picked up that it's what his society wants from him, which - fuck Elves, really. I know that's not very fair, but - "
Sigh.
He hands Cam a book he got from Bar. It is titled "THE KINSLAYERS: an account of Doriath, Sirion, and the end of the Age" and the cover has fake blood splattered across it.
"Oh, it's infuriating. Assuming that one matches the one I'm reading - hopefully with more detail on why the Valar decided to let them off - it is the account of the kingdom of Doriath committing an ethnic cleansing, this sparking a war with the Dwarven kingdom of Tumunzahar, and several hundred thousand incidental deaths in fighting with orcs. And then another Elf kingdom comes in to fight over the ruins and that, you see, is a Kinslaying, which is a very serious crime.
Not that the second sack of Menegroth didn't also kill horrifying numbers of people, just -"
Every chapter of this book is focused on a different civilian massacre, but the Kinslayings definitely get the most detail! Gory pictures and time-stamped accounts of events and preserved letters between Maedhros, ruler of this one faction, and Dior, ruler of the other one, and so on. Maedhros is very eloquent and convincing for someone gearing up for mass slaughter over a shiny rock. The second sack of Menegroth took eighty-one hours and killed three hundred thousand people. The destruction of the refugee camp at the mouth of the Sirion took only six hours, and killed even more. And then, after the War of Wrath, Maedhros and Maglor wrote the Valar asking for the Silmarils recovered in the destruction of Angband - the Valar refused, of course, on the grounds that by their crimes they'd lost their claim to them -
Nod. "If - for some reason - we need information about the end of the space Arda war which they'd have you can ask Michael or Macalaure but I bet their alt'd prefer to be resurrected - even if he'd want to die under those circumstances he'd want to be alive again under these ones. Probably not the - formerly-me - but his brothers would know for sure."
Couple different considerations. Most important was that my father had a fairly terrifying emotional breakdown at his father's death/capture and demanded it of us as proof that we weren't going to back out and abandon him, and I felt like, given that 'he invents something amazing' was our only real prospect of defeating Melkor and he was going to be surrounded by people who'd taken it, I'd rather be one of those. Secondary consideration was that we thought it might incentivize the Enemy to hand out the Silmarils to start civil wars - it was the sort of thing he'd find amusing to do - and even the worst conceivable outcome there was a lot better than the outcome if he figured out how to use them to redirect all the backups. Why?
Nod. Cling.
The worst conceivable outcome when he hands them out to cause civil wars is still really bad, he writes back, and it happens if you don't get Cam by some fluke. You - well, whatever of you they rescued from Angband - kill around a million innocent people. All your people are dead, by the end. It doesn't look like they ever disobey you.
"If it turns out we don't daevafy we should maybe experiment with chipping someone Polyjuiced into the right kind of Elf, immortality-with-serious-drawbacks seems better than running a constant risk of getting a rock dropped on my head and ceasing permanently to exist at all. But yes, not a good accident. Though if I got his memory and attention thingies I think I'd take it - those're so tempting -"
Oh gosh clothes! "To go with the braiding thing Elves also have no nudity taboo, if the bar conformed to their standards it would require braids but not clothes. I discovered this when I was looking for what things people on Valinor were enjoying from the library of Hell, they liked some of the softcore porn as long as the models had their hair up." Downstairs!
"Early days of space colonization, they had me fuel a ship to Mars - they didn't want to rely solely on a fairy, could've quit in the middle and you can't summon in zero gravity so they'd have been stranded till mission control could send them a new one, I was backup. I really thought they might let me terraform it when we got there. Nope."