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necessities are free
kyeo and carissa
Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo doesn't remember enough of the fight to know what happened, and his head is killing him, but when he checks he still has his sidearm and also now he's apparently crashlanded on a planet with absolutely awful-looking hostile fauna, wow, and that one's coming his way much too fast and he draws and shoots.

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It rears back, stunned, and a bunch of people with swords jump in to start clobbering it, and one of them grabs him by the arm to drag him to his feet.

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OW his head hurts. Are those swords. These people don't look like they're even from the Ibyatok system, was he concussed through an entire jump? Apparently he was concussed through an entire jump. He flicks the safety on, since he's being dragged around, but maintains a tight grip on his raygun.

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They yell at him incomprehensibly and then are distracted by another massive horned acid-spitting thing crashing through the wall - it's some kind of force field, actually - behind them, and turn from him to deal with that.

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Kyeo is so glad Ibyabek doesn't have wildlife like that! He rubs at his temple a little and then aims at the wildlife to zap that one too. It's big enough he has a really clear shot over their heads.

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Their yelling is still incomprehensible but it sounds appreciative, now. 

 

When both beasts are down there's a lull and someone takes off at a run towards him, and starts demonstratively tugging him towards a - stone fortress, it looks like - that's not too far behind them. There are people on its walls with longbows.

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The weapons here don't make any sense. Even if they don't have reliable electricity here or are having problems paying their bills they should fall back on slugthrowers, not arrows. He goes where he is tugged, safety back on, trying not to moan out loud about the headache.

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Incomprehensible conversation! And then, suddenly, comprehensible conversation. 

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"Hey. Where're you from? Also what is that."

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She speaks startlingly good Ibyabekan, wow. "I'm from the Five Virtues of Ibyabek, we must have crashed, and it's my sidearm."

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"Is that a ...ship? We didn't see anything crash - does it have some number of charges per day or what -"

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"Yes, it's a ship. A big cruiser. I recharge the gun off the ship's reactor."

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"I don't know what that is. And this front is several hundred miles from the ocean."

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Oh dear. Did these people just... colonize this planet a hundred years ago and immediately lose all their technology somehow... and forget what a spaceship is... "A space ship."

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" - like in Numeria? You don't look Numerian but I guess someone can run you down there tomorrow, probably, or sometime this week - are you injured, we're allowed to go to Abadar's clerics for healing if we don't talk to them."

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Oh, okay, this is some kind of - intraplanetary fragmentation situation, where Numeria still has technology and everyone else is resisting Numerian authority and has to fight off the acid-spitting megafauna with bows and swords. He doesn't know what an Abadar's cleric is but this doesn't seem like the time, considering he's concussed probably. "I think I hit my head."

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"Well, I can walk you down there. Do you have money on hand for it."

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"...Ibyabek doesn't use money. The ship might have some for - bribing other ships or something, I don't know, but if you didn't even see it crash I'm not sure how to find it."

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"I can spot you if you let me look at the side-arm. Ibyabek doesn't use money? At all? Do you barter everything?"

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"No, it's all distributed to the people by the state - do you just mean look at it or handle it, you haven't been trained to handle it."

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"Nah, I just want to look at it, I'm a weapons enchanter, I like learning how different places put weapons together. Does it take a lot of training?" Out of this building and along a dirt path to a different building, where she switches languages to say something reassuring to the people at the door.

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"It's not hard to use but it's hard to be careful enough with."

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They walk into a big circular room, thirty feet in diameter, with a man in robes at the center and a dozen other people in various reaches of the room. She walks up to the center and puts some coins in a box and walks away without speaking to the man there. 

"Do you know if it can be recharged with spells?" 

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"I am... pretty sure... that it cannot be recharged with spells." Wow, he's glad their revolution covered the whole planet and no Ibyabekans have fallen into superstitious barbarism.

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"Too bad. Healing's in ten minutes, going off the clock, sometimes they're early or late but I'm not allowed to ask."

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"...what do you mean, healing's in ten minutes?"

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"Uh, I paid for healing for you and in ten minutes it will happen and then we can leave and go back to our barracks and workroom."

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This is probably just confusing because Kyeo has a concussion. Or she doesn't know the vocabulary for "doctor" and stuff like that in Ibyabekan. "Okay."

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Four minutes pass and then an armored man staggers into the room with a horrifying, definitely-shouldn't-be-survivable gouge running from his shoulder down across his torso and taking a chunk out of his leg. The instant he's in the room the man in the center of it chants something and then -

The armored man stands up, totally uninjured. His armor is still shredded. He walks without a limp towards the center of the room and leaves some coin. 

Kyeo's concussion is gone. 

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"Right, let's get out of here."

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Kyeo does not get out of there. He stares at the cleric and the guy with the shredded armor, speechless.

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"It's neat but you gotta be Neutral for it and so does your god. Come on, it's not decent to linger here."

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"I'm confused."

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"Mmm?" She starts walking.

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He follows her. "What just happened?"

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"We're at the Worldwound. It's a big tear to the Abyss and demons pour through it trying to devour everything. There are magic protections holding them back, but some of them get through. All the Lawful churches and countries have people here to fight them. Neutral clerics - and Good ones, I guess - can channel positive energy, for healing, fifteen foot radius, so they build rooms like those, and you go pay to hang out in them until the next time the cleric does a channel, which is usually on the half-hour but he did it early because that guy was not going to live five more minutes."

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Kyeo has been captured by hostile parties and they have given him SO MANY DRUGS, that's what's going on. He is high on painkillers and who knows what else and they are talking nonsense to see if he does something stupid.

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She relaxes when they get back to the other building. "Can I see the sidearm now?"

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He should probably... shoot her? Actually, no, he probably shouldn't shoot anyone while he's high, he has no idea what's going on. He makes sure the safety is on and draws it for her to look at because if they've got him captured it is unlikely they couldn't just take it.

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She examines it quietly for a minute, with Detect Magic up even though it seems not to be magic. Identifies the metals. Admires the really clean precise make. "I've never seen one of these before. I guess if they can only recharge on their ship that makes sense."

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There are reactors on the planet too. Perhaps he shouldn't tell her that in case that is somehow sensitive information in a way he can't determine right now because he hit his head. Probably he shouldn't say anything but name-rank-serial.

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"I've got like twenty minutes of Tongues left," she says when she's done studying it. "I can give you Taldane in the morning but not right now, so if you have other questions you should ask them now. If you go shoot some more demons I'm sure people will feed you."

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Welp he's going to starve after he runs out of charge in another thirty-three shots, then, isn't he, if that's how they've decided to kill him. He should get it over with, the first few days of going without food are the worst ones. Or maybe he should go shoot wildlife a bunch first? So they can't use the gun on his crewmates, wherever they are? He doesn't really have a procedure memorized for being captured by people pretending they can do magic.

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She's now looking at him with some concern. "And you could go to the paladins after that, if you wanted, I think they can't let anyone starve who is in their field of vision or something like that."

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Is he supposed to know what a paladin is. What is the point of this entire operation. He's still a cadet, for crying out loud, what do they think he knows?

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"...do they not have divine casters, in Numeria."

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"Ibyabek," he corrects, which is written on his uniform and not really secret information even if it isn't name-rank-serial.

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"Huh. Okay. And you're not allowed outside worship?"

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Why is he on Pretend Superstitious Barbarians Planet. What a stupid planet. Maybe if he just actually volunteers his name-rank-serial she will get the picture. "My name is Kyeo Sebe Luk, star cadet, 01992350."

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"My name is Carissa Sevar, weapons enchanter with Her Majesty's Seventh. Ibyabek has...a million soldiers?"

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More than that, some of the serial numbers have more digits. He doesn't say that.

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She boggles at that for a second but probably Cheliax could field a million soldiers, even more, if it conscripted everyone between sixteen and thirty-five. It'd be short-sighted but they could do it.

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Probably this is the part where they torture him and that's going to suck. It may actually suck more if they use weird barbarian torture methods instead of something modern like electric shocks. Oh, it's that thing where the world feels like it's ending. At least it is not distracting him from anything he was trying to do.

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" - are you not supposed to talk to people with another god at all, is that what this is -"

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He is not on enough drugs to be hallucinating gods.

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"Fine. Whatever. I'm going to stick you in the men's barracks and give you Taldane in the morning and ask around about a ride back to Ibyabek for you." Though she's not actually sure that the place he's from is one she's heard of. It might be somewhere in Tian Xia.

She reaches for the stun gun.

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He holsters it. He's pretty surrounded but that doesn't mean he's going to LET her.

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Well she feels that she deserves compensation for all of this trouble she's going to but she's not going to wrestle a fighter for it. "Okay. We can talk more in the morning." When she can have Charm Person prepared. "Barracks are this way."

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Fine, he will go to their "barracks". What is the POINT of all this though.

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There's someone there. 

"This guy has a very impressive weapon and is from some place I've never heard of, I assume a teleportation accident though he doesn't remember 'cause he hit his head, he's maybe not allowed to talk to followers of foreign gods, keep him out of trouble, okay?"

       "What're you - doing with him -"

"I want to figure out the weapon. And learn about Tian Xia. That's my assignment, here, learn about faraway places. And if they're not allowed to talk to followers of foreign gods we're not going to have many opportunities."

       "Sure."

She waves cheerfully at Kyeo and leaves as Tongues wears off.

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Kyeo doesn't understand this conversation, of course. He looks for an unoccupied bunk.

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There are some of those.

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He sits on one.

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People look at him curiously as they come in but none of them bother him. Eventually the sun goes down. As they do not have electric lighting, it's dark when that happens, aside from a gas lantern someone has and some glowing orbs someone else has.

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He doesn't like these drugs.

He pulls the holster around so it's under him while he lies down, and sleeps.

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She comes to tap him with Share Language in the morning. She hates being in the men's barracks so she tries to tug him out, after that. "Hey, come get breakfast."

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THESE ARE SUCH WEIRD DRUGS.

He will follow her to breakfast, fully expecting it to be some kind of stupid prank where actually breakfast costs money or something.

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Breakfast does not cost money but it is not the highest quality of breakfasts because all the important people have rings of sustenance and many of the rest can Prestidigitate it tastier. There is oatmeal, and jerky.

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Wow, jerky. He will eat it if they give it to him, though he's prepared for there to be some sort of unpleasantness where they kick him in the stomach later, that's the sort of thing that probably comes up sometimes. They already obviously have some way to deliver substances so this doesn't change much.

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She casts Charm Person while his back is turned. "So," she says. "I know we scared you yesterday. The Worldwound's not the safest place but no one has it out for you in particular."

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"The Worldwound?" ...that's a question, not a statement, it's probably fine.

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"The place where you landed. Where the demons attack from."

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"That's what the dangerous animals are called, demons?"

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"Yeah. They're not all animals, some of 'em are intelligent. They're all chaotic and trying to devour everything, though."

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"This planet has intelligent alien life??"

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"...yes. Does Ibyabek not?"

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"Nowhere does! Unless this place has been keeping it secret for however long the place has been inhabited!"

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"The Worldwound is not a secret, people from all over the world come here to fight."

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"Since when?"

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"Uh, since 4607."

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Kyeo mentally converts that into Ibyabekan years. "It isn't 4607 yet."

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"That's, uh, Absalom Reckoning. It's sixty-eight years since the Thrune Ascendency? It's, uh, eight thousand since the Age of Darkness."

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"I don't know how long an Absalom year is. In Earth Standard Years it's 2152."

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"don't know what those are. Also haven't heard of Ibyabek but you look Tian so I figured it was somewhere there."

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"It's the second planet in the Ibyatok system, which used to be called the Sohaitok system."

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"You're from another planet?"

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"I told you! I'm from Ibyabek! It's a planet."

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"I didn't know it was a planet! Okay, that's your problem, now you are on Golarion, which is a different planet."

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"I've never heard of Golarion. Is it a Kularan planet, or - Xeren, or - where is it, who does it belong to?"

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"...lots of people claim different bits of it. It doesn't belong to other planets."

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"Okay. But where is it?"

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"I don't think I know enough to answer that for someone who knows of lots of multiplanet empires. I know our sun has eleven worlds."

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"That doesn't really help, I don't know how many planets the suns I didn't think were colonized have. Sol, Earth's sun, has eight... how long ago was Golarion settled?"

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"A really long time ago? We think human civilizations are at least ten thousand years old and some other species were around before us, I think."

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"- ten thousand years ago humans hadn't invented agriculture! Did - some spacefaring aliens - kidnap your ancestors and put you here -"

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"Maybe? I think we in fact hadn't invented agriculture, back then."

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"Okay. Well, that's - interesting - what are the kinds of aliens? The, uh, various civilizations descended from Earth as a spacefaring planet in its own right, haven't found any intelligent life on other planets yet."

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"Man. Uh, there's elves and orcs and halflings and gnomes and goblins and dwarves and giants and trolls and hags and...titans? and merfolk and bugbears and, uh, tabaxi, there's hybrids of many of those, there's outsiders who are originally from the Outer Planes and elementals that are originally from the Inner Planes and hybrids of most of the kinds of outsider with humans, there's dragons, there's trolls and titans and giants and mind flayers and beholders and algolthulls. And that conceals a lot of - like, dragons are as different from each other as we are from bugbears, there's hundreds of kinds, we just call 'em all dragons and they call us all humanoids."

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"That's a lot of aliens - are most of them genetically engineered or something -"

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"I don't know what you mean by that."

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"Uh, modified from existing animals somehow?"

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"Oh. I think yes in some cases but I don't know how."

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"I guess that explains it." Sort of.

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"Where you're from, lots of people know how to travel between planets? For us that's very hard."

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"Did the species that originally put you here... die? Forget?"

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"The gods might know. They haven't told us, if so. The great empires died in the Age of Darkness, thousands of years ago, but I don't think they travelled the stars, I feel like we'd have heard about that."

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The gods are probably just powerful aliens or something. Who forgot how to build spaceships. That's still weird. "Okay."

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"If you know, we would be very eager to learn."

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"I've worked on building spaceships but I don't know how to do it from scratch." Also maybe he's not supposed to? But since he doesn't know how he doesn't have to explain that to this nice lady.

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"Well, if you know bits and pieces maybe people can work from those. In Hell, if not here."

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"In Hell?"

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"Uh, our gods have realms they control directly, not in this plane but in other ones, and Hell is a very prosperous and powerful one. Do you know of it on your planets?"

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"No, I don't know where any of these planets are."

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"Hell is technically a plane not a planet. The difference is that no amount of travel would get you there. We go there when we die, but I don't think people from where you are go there when they die or I'd have heard about that."

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"That sounds... imaginary," he tells her, though he's not sure it's really kinder to tell her than to let her go on believing that.

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"I am not sure what you mean by that. Planes sound imaginary? Specifically Hell?"

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"Planes sound fairly imaginary but mostly going somewhere when you die."

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"Do you just not go anywhere when you die? You...all turn into ghosts?"

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"Ghosts are also imaginary."

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"Then...what happens to your soul when you die. Does it just - immediately get eaten or something."

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"...Souls are imaginary."

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"...okay, then how does resurrecting people without a body work, and why, if you've cast Trap the Soul on them, is it impossible to resurrect them until you've smashed the gem that you in the conventional parlace 'trapped their soul' in."

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"I do not think I am on enough drugs to be convinced that you can resurrect people."

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"- right, sorry, I forgot you don't have divine casters - you can actually do it with a Wish too but I don't know that people would've been confident they had a safe wording, if there were no divine magic - you are not on any drugs, I don't think, and I don't see how that'd cause me to be claiming to you that we can resurrect people while you disbelieve me, drugs don't do that."

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"Magic is imaginary."

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She does some dancing lights. 

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"I don't know how you did that but I'm still pretty sure it wasn't magic."

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"Wanna go watch people fight demons?"

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"I had a concussion last time but I remember swords."

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"The fighters use swords and the wizards cast fireballs or blind people or whatever but they mostly save them for when they'll do the most, since you can do swords all day and you can't do fireballs all day."

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This is all extremely imaginary and he has no idea what the point is! Are... Numerians with high tech... infiltrating the superstitious barbarians... with technology they're passing off as magic... to keep the demon population down, or spy on people or...

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She Detects Thoughts when he doesn't say anything but it's not very illustrative. "Is there something that would convince you that there was magic."

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"I never really thought about that before."

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"I guess you can be skeptical about magic if you want to. How do people sail their space ships without magic?"

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Uhhh what's common knowledge that it won't be a huge betrayal to say. "They need a lot of electrical generation capacity, same as what charges the gun, and in-system propulsion is different from what jumps between stars -" And he can explain in the loosest possible terms what the deal is there.

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"Electrical generation? Do you know how that works?"

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"There are a lot of ways to do it. I don't know how to build a modern reactor from scratch."

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"Well. Maybe the crown will fund an expedition to Ibyabek to learn."

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"How would you get there without a ship?"

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Sigh. "With magic."

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Well, he got here somehow. He has no idea how though.

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"Are there things your world has invented that mine has not that you do know from scratch? Even if they're things that are trivial to your people they might be very impressive here."

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"I... know how to make bricks?"

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"That one I think we know."

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"Modern technology is more complicated than bricks."

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"Cheliax is the greatest country in the world and we have the most people in - jobs that require you to be very smart - and if anyone can figure it out I bet we can."

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"I'm not an engineer, though." And even if he were he wouldn't go around telling strange planets beholden to alien genetic engineers how to build spaceships.

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"What do engineers study?"

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"...engineering. Physics and materials science, I suppose."

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And probably he wasn't tracked for those. "Okay. I guess we can put it together ourselves, or go there and see it and learn from your people."

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"I would appreciate the ride home if the... magic... works that way." Assuming being ?drugged? by aliens isn't the sort of thing you have to go to the hospital about but it's never come up and there's no sense borrowing trouble expecting it.

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"If they can do it with a Gate it'll be open for a couple minutes and if it takes an Interplanetary Teleport they'll probably do enough of them you can arrange to be on one of them. I think. Needs of the Crown first, of course."

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"That makes sense."

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"Do you have questions about this place?"

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Lots. "Some. I remember you mentioned 'paladins'?"

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"Yes. They are - soldier orders. Specifically Lawful Good ones, if you're Lawful but not Good you become a Hellknight instead."

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"...if you're lawful but not good?"

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"The gods see things in terms of Law and Chaos and Good and Evil. They're - the fundamental kinds of choice that there are, I think. Law is about order and keeping your promises and doing your duty. Chaos is about doing whatever you feel like and not having responsibilities. Evil is about having goals and being willing to achieve your goals even if there's a cost. Good is about - doing things narrowly and properly and very carefully and never stepping off that path. You get different afterlives, depending."

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He is about to comment that this sounds very weird in Ibyabekan, which is when he notices that he has not been speaking Ibyabekan all day. Which, now that he thinks of it, she totally told him, but he ignored her because magic is imaginary, except he is pretty sure drugs cannot make you speak entire languages suddenly? That's very strange. He thinks he's... lawful... good...? except these seem to be made-up categories. That were in fact by her own admission literally invented by aliens! So categorizing himself is a silly impulse.

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"When you're powerful enough, people can read it off you, and so it's useful for knowing what people are about. Most people don't know for sure until they die, though."

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That part still sounds very fake, magic is one (very big) thing but souls and an afterlife is obvious nonsense, but he isn't going to harp on it. "All right."

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She waits to see if he comes up with more questions.

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"Is going to the paladins the best way to eat while I'm here? My gun will not last through a lot of fights without recharging."

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"No. I think it serves Cheliax to keep this a secret from the paladins, for now, so we'll feed you. Out of my stipend, until I have enough to convince someone important."

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"Why a secret?"

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"We are allied to fight the Worldwound but we don't agree on much else."

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"And the thing that's wrong with them is that they are 'good'. - how does this, uh, language magic work. On Ibyabek we think being good is good."

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"Yeah, they do well on the propaganda front. Being Good is really really hard and people can only do it if they spend practically everything trying to do that and not doing anything else."

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"We don't have any aliens around trying to convince us that we should do alien things."

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Well. 

"The gods are - they care about better stuff than humans do. They're bigger, deeper, there's more to them, they can see farther, it's kind of like how we'd feel about people who could never want anything that wasn't going to happen in the next five seconds. Or like how we feel about, I don't know, cows. That's not to say none of the gods care about things that I don't think people should bother with. Many of them do. But - it's a mistake to decide you'll just do people stuff and ignore the gods, you'll be ignoring almost everything important."

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That is sure a very emphatic recommendation for completely replacing all his values with those of some aliens he has just now heard of who can't even control their planet's megafauna problem. "Cows. I see," he replies blandly.

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"Some people go for ants." Sigh. "I guess if you just dissolve when you die you should be focused on immortality and not on religion. Or are your people immortal already, does the future learn how to do that?"

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"No, we don't have that. We live longer than we did when we used swords, though."

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"Some people are immortal but it's very hard, is my understanding, and some forms of it might require having a soul, though I don't know how you'd check if you've got one."

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"It's very hard?"

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"To become immortal. - it's what I'd be focusing on, if I were going to just die forever at some point."

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"What do you mean by it being very hard?"

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" - you have to be a very powerful ...inventor and very good at research."

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"Why can't... just one person be very good at research?"

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"I don't think the gods would let someone invent a general version of immortality. They want us to die since this world is kind of mostly a sorting mechanism for them to allocate souls across the afterlives and it wouldn't be a very good sorting mechanism if everyone got to stick around."

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Kyeo isn't sure people are in fact supposed to be immortal, philosophically speaking, but if they aren't he is pretty sure it's not because the entire point of being alive is to let an alien put you in a box, because that's stupid.

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Kyeo sure thinks that most features of reality are fake or stupid. She wonders if people from atheist countries are always like this. "Can you tell me more about planet-empires? How are they administered? How hard is it to travel between planets?"

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"It's not very hard within a system. A ship that can jump is more complicated, and it takes days to get between systems depending on how far apart they are."

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"Only days? To go by ship between entire worlds? That's - faster than we can go from one city to another by sea -"

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Well, yes, they have... swords, which probably means no airplanes or helicopters. "Yes. It takes about eighteen hours to go between Ibyabek and the other inhabited planet in our system, about a week to get to the nearest other inhabited system. Though that's after you've already gotten into orbit above the planet, in the first case, and out of the way of the planets, in the second, both of which steps add travel time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you know anything about how your people go so fast?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not much, I'm not an engineer," and Ibyabek does not have an alliance with this planet. "I could do some limited emergency repairs on the Five Virtues if a common engine problem happened but that doesn't tell me how to build it."

Permalink Mark Unread

She is not exactly trained in getting people to desert but it seems probably possible, when they're entirely stranded. "Are the engines made of stone? Metal?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mostly metal and some weird stuff but I don't think any of it is rock."

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Nod. "Ibyabek must be a really wonderful place."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It is! Best in the galaxy."

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh good, an angle. "What makes it better than other places in the galaxy?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The others so far as I know all still make people pay for things, even things they need to live. Their people are weaker and softer and decadent, and they have gender roles that won't produce a strong next generation."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What gender roles produce a strong next generation."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, so far we don't know how to make babies grow outside of women, so they mostly need to be focusing on that and not being careerist or frivolous instead. Can magic do that? I think it might be good if magic could do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Magic cannot do that but it doesn't require, uh, focusing on? It doesn't even benefit from it. The babies will kind of grow no matter what else you are doing with your life."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, if you can think of a way to have a career in nine months that you spend feeling sick I guess that's fine but I'm not a philosopher."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you have the women immediately get pregnant again once they're done? I guess filling a whole planet with people would take a lot of work."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not married but my understanding is it doesn't always happen right away? They have to be ready for it, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So they can't have any careers ever in case at some point they get pregnant and turn out to be one of the people who is too sick to do things while pregnant?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Something like that, I assume the girls' schools have more detail but I obviously didn't go to one."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mmm. Some countries here do things that way but Cheliax doesn't. Obviously."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I noticed."

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And if they have to in order to make things work with Ibyabek that would be awful and maybe she doesn't care to tell people about Ibyabek after all. "You might like Osirion or Qadira, though. Women don't have any rights at all there. They can't own property and they don't get custody of their children and their husbands are allowed to beat them and I can't imagine they have the slightest problem with anyone being careerist."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wasn't trying to be rude." She asked! What was he supposed to tell her? He doesn't know what kinds of lies fly well with magic women who worship aliens!

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not upset that you said so I'm upset that apparently even in places that have starships and can go anywhere in days people still think - that it's wasteful if someone could be available to a man to impregnate and isn't, but not wasteful if people spend their whole lives appeasing whoever they happened to get glued to and throwing up a lot."

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo doesn't see what having starships has to do with gender??

Permalink Mark Unread

She does not explain herself since this would involve admitting she's reading his mind. 

Permalink Mark Unread

Well. If she's content to leave it at that Kyeo doesn't want to, like, hurt her feelings or anything. He's very good at being quiet.

Permalink Mark Unread

"...say more about the not having to buy things? Presumably everyone doesn't just get whatever they want?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...well, not if they want, uh, statues of themselves or something stupid, but food and medical care and water and electricity and things like that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. That's cool. How do you have enough you can do that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, first electricity had to be invented. Now the people whose jobs it is to produce all those things... do their jobs."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What part does electricity have in things?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ibyabek's a warm planet so in the summer we need to keep buildings cool, and it also does lighting and charges things like - communication devices, and stuff."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Does it make making things more efficient?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, factories use it too."

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"Factories?"

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"Buildings where things are made, like - shoes."

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"Why would you make all the shoes in one building instead of at home?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Most people aren't any good at making shoes! I haven't specifically spent any time in a shoe factory but most things are easier to make a lot of if you do them in batches."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. I wonder if that's related to why it's a problem for women to do things, I think a lot more women can sit in their own house making shoes while pregnant than go to a entire other building to do it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Who is in charge of Ibyabek?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Glorious Leader Lut Naar Am."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is Glorious Leader Lut Naar Am - an inherited position? Chosen by, uh, not by gods, by ....fate? Chosen by a council?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's the son of the previous Glorious Leader who led Ibyabek to independence."

Permalink Mark Unread

"independence from who?"

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"Sohaibek."

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"What happened?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, Pheon Naar Am was a philosopher and he saw that the way the people of Sohaibek lived and were governed was bad for them, and he convinced the people of what was then Inner Sohaibek to join together and resist the unjust government, and succeeded, but on Outer Sohaibek right philosophy didn't make it to enough people and they started a war, and Old Sohaibek, in between the two, was melted in their crazed attempt to prevent the Glorious Leader's ideas from taking hold there, but we were able to fight them off in the end and keep Ibyabek as it is now."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The whole planet was ...melted? You can do that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. Well, I think probably some islands would still be habitable."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"Wow."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It was a very bad war, one of the only times a planet has been melted in anger."

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Nod. "I'm - sorry. I can't even imagine. The government that did this, are they still in power?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, Outer Sohaibek's government has continuity with that one. Though they change leaders every few years."

Permalink Mark Unread

Nod. "What other places are there? What's the biggest empire?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"United Kular has the most planets but I think Xeren has a larger population."

Permalink Mark Unread

"How many people is that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Xeren? I've heard twenty billion. It's probably rounded and they have probably grown since then."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...wow. And they all just. When they die, they just don't go anywhere because there aren't local gods to catch them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There is as far as I know no afterlife."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe if we find them or vice versa the gods will be able to set up shop."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe." He has no idea what to think of that but fortunately she did not ask.

Permalink Mark Unread

She feels like she is going to need to give a better pitch for Asmodeus but she's not sure what people who have entire planets care about. "What sort of things have been recently invented in Ibyabek?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, why do you ask? I'm not an inventor, I wouldn't be able to explain any of it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, no, I understand that, I'll stop bothering you about how to make things, probably our government will seek guidance from yours - I was just wondering, uh, what some of the most valuable things you do are, and for us inventing new magic is one of the most valuable things."

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"Well, there isn't any magic. There are cars and helicopters and things. And spaceships. And the machinery in factories, and lights, and plumbing. I assume the engineers improve those sometimes."

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Maybe eventually you have invented everything there is to invent and it's just tinkering. "What's a helicopter?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"In-atmosphere flying machine. It has spinning rotors on top of it and they carry it in the air."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. Cool. Do people fly all around, the whole planet..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure, when they have something to do on the other side of it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's so neat. What places have you been to."

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"The best school was in the same city I grew up in - my father's fairly important, works in the capital - so I was mostly there, planetside, but military training was in another city about a thousand miles away and then I went into space."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's space like."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There's no gravity except in the parts of the ship where the ship makes it. The view of the stars is very good. The ship has to be very sturdy to keep all the air in, and you need a spacesuit to go out of it, so we usually don't."

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"Do you like it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

What a weird question. "Of course."

Permalink Mark Unread

She is feeling as if she's very incompetent at talking to this person which isn't usually how she feels. "Do you have questions -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I - suppose I need to know how money works? And how to get some." Since this planet is too primitive to have given it up.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's - coin, or paper, issued by the state, you're not allowed to make your own. You get it by working, you have to spend it for food or housing, though not at the Worldwound, when you're an active duty soldier you get fed and housed on base usually. But if, say, you come back to Corentyn with us when this shift is up," he doesn't have a reason to do that but she doesn't want to let this float into more important hands just yet, "you'd pay for a house, and for servants or slaves if you want those, and for food and drink, and then you want some savings for magic healing if anything happens to you, and some savings for new clothes. You pay by giving the coins or paper in the right quantity to the person who owns the house or the food, and then it's yours. There's ten copper in a silver and ten silver in a gold, which is called a gold but we mostly have bills, now." She shows them from her purse. "If you want things as fancy as you're accustomed to it'll be a lot of money probably since we haven't invented all those things you mentioned."

Permalink Mark Unread

They have slaves? That's fucked up. Maybe the slaves will have a revolution soon or something? That is probably hard when the slaveowners have magic but it is probably also hard when the ruling class has all the guns and the liberators of Ibyabek managed. "Working on what?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, whatever you expect people will pay you for? I'm an arms and armor enchanter, but people do all kinds of things."

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"...I have been trained to serve on a military spaceship," he points out.

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"Yeah, for you you'll just go to the government and I can give you a stipend in the meantime while we figure out, uh, the right part of the government to go to."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You don't need your money?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am a wizard, I have lots of money, I can do a stipend that will only slow down my headband savings by a month and that should be comfy unless you have very expensive tastes. Which I guess you might, we have very expensive tastes by the standards of hunter-gatherers."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They don't let us get too pampered in the military but I don't know what you might be missing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, if you're willing to live like this you'll be able to save lots of money."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you say so." It's a little like being told that if he never sings - not that he can anymore - he'll be able to save a lot of oxygen. You have to fix the air recycler if you have this problem, not take shallow breaths. But he doesn't know how the revolutionaries pulled it off besides that it required a revolution.

Permalink Mark Unread

Eventually Tongues wears off and she gives him fluency in Taldane and lets him wander off so she can make magic items.

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He doesn't wander very far, but he paces out the area of the Chelish section of the Worldwound defenses, looking at this and that, sidearm ready should wildlife attempt to trouble him.

Permalink Mark Unread

The horrifying creatures seem to burst through the force-field a couple of times an hour; the teams stationed nearby fire on them when they do.

Permalink Mark Unread

...he will wander up to a team and ask if he should be helping. He doesn't really know what to do with himself; he is used to being more scheduled.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah, definitely, he...doesn't look like he does melee, is he a spellcaster?

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"No, but I have this." He pats his sidearm.

Permalink Mark Unread

Huh, fancy. He can be with Luis and Consuela and Aspex on the east side, the adventurers they were hanging with left town.

Permalink Mark Unread

He goes with Luis and Consuela and Aspex and stands at the ready.

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Fourteen-legged acid-breathing horned thing bulldozes through the forcefield!

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh yikes that's big. Zap zap.

Permalink Mark Unread

One of his new companions, who is shooting a longbow, whistles. "Where'd you buy that? How much is it?"

 

Another one fireballs the creature, which rears up angrily on the back four legs.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Didn't buy it -" ZAP. "- issued in the Ibyabekan military."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - and they don't sell them? Damn, that's a brilliant way to get your adventurers to stick out a term." He lifts the creature about a foot off the ground; its many feet scrabble for purchase.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Things on Ibyabek aren't sold." Zap zap. "We've advanced beyond the need for money."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - what, do you not have magic item shops?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No." How many zaps does this thing require?? He's going to run out of charge before bedtime at this rate.

Permalink Mark Unread

It stops moving a couple of zaps later; Luis charges in and decapitates it and then they can move on. "That sucks," says the wizard sympathetically. "I assume you're allowed to keep things you bought elsewhere?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's never come up, this is my first time on another planet."

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" - it's on another planet?" The wizard whistles, and then fireballs a flying worm thing. "Do they do trade with other worlds, could Cheliax buy those?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There's some trade, yes, but I have no idea where this is relative to Ibyatok." Is the worm thing dead or should he help.

Permalink Mark Unread

Worm thing is shot in the eye, falls out of the sky, and splatters. "What gods do they worship in Ibyatok?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We don't." Why are these people so obsessed with gods? Were old-timey people normally this obsessed with gods and old-timey movies just don't mention it because it would be distracting?

Permalink Mark Unread

"What, none of them? No money and no gods...what do you do all day."

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"I am in the military and serve on a spaceship. I'm not actually sure how I got here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure, but off shift."

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"People - sing and chat and play games and watch movies - you probably don't have movies - how does having money and gods occupy your time off shift?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, you can go out drinking, or hire a girl, or read an adventure novel, and you're supposed to attend religious services and festivals and so on."

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"We have novels and occasionally festivals but not religious festivals. I have seen people drink occasionally but it's not a popular vice. Respectable men get married."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One of those places, huh. I guess if it suits you."

 

They talk only occasionally as they fight demons; they complain about the demons, the weather, their coworkers, the paladin orders, the food. They make plans for how they'll spend their money on leave; nice furniture, slaves, merchant ventures, magic items, in one case a line of racehorses.

Permalink Mark Unread

It continues to be repulsive that people have slaves.

Kyeo uses up the charges in his gun and retreats to the barracks.

Permalink Mark Unread

About an hour after that there's a whisper. "Hey. - don't make a big fuss about hearing this, but you can reply by whispering back, if you want. You're - not Chelish, are you."

Permalink Mark Unread

...right. Magic. Kyeo will never get used to magic. "No," he whispers.

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Chelish are - not good people to listen to. Do you want to get out of here and go somewhere else?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, one of them has been paying to feed me," he says dubiously. "I don't have any money."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We can feed you. And we won't want your soul for it either."

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"I don't think I have a soul. - what are you going to want for feeding me -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- we feed people if we can because it is wrong for people to go hungry! And we're curious about your world."

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, that seems better than "you can save money by living like a soldier even when you're at home" as an economic philosophy. "Where would I go?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can come over and take your hand and teleport us out of here."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"I can't shoot the gun any more, it's out of charge. If that matters."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Probably take it with you anyway so the Chelish don't reengineer it. But it's fine. We'll take care of you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Are you paladins? She mentioned paladins."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - yes. I mean, I am personally a wizard. But I'm with the Order of Folded Steel, which is a paladin order of Iomedae. We fight evil. We...noticed you out there fighting the demons, today."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They seem like a problem! Uh, okay, I'll go with you if you can - magic me wherever -"

Permalink Mark Unread

And something takes his hand and then he's somewhere else, in new barracks that look much like the old barracks.

"Got him," someone says triumphantly, and there's a thump and then he's not invisible; he's a man older than Kyeo and of the same ethnicity as the Chelish.

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"Hello," says Kyeo.

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"Hi," says someone else, armored and also of that ethnicity. "Welcome. I'm Eliar. I'm a paladin of Iomedae - I don't know if you've heard of -"

"He asked," says the wizard. "Of course, I'm sure he got the Chelish version."

"Right. Uh, Cheliax is Evil, and they lie to their people about everything."

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"She said something about paladins not letting people starve. If that wasn't meant to be flattering then... it failed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Probably it wasn't."

"Some of them do make it out, eventually."

"But probably it wasn't meant to be flattering."

"In Cheliax caring about people is considered a weakness. And - vaguely disloyal, I think."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What does that have to do with people starving?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, not letting people starve would be a kind of caring about them, and thus fairly suspicious. - I'm really not an expert on Cheliax, mind. We're not allowed to evangelize to them and they're not allowed to talk to us and we'll be killed if we actually go there, so."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I see." He doesn't.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why don't you sit down, I'll get us dinner," the wizard says, and leaves.

"How did you get here?" Eliar says. "Were you, uh, aiming to go here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know. I hit my head and don't remember the circumstances. I didn't know this planet existed and my ship was not exploratory."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm so sorry. Have you done a Sending back to your ship, to let them know you're here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know what that is. Is it magic?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. It's a spell that sends a message, even over a great distance."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I haven't tried it. Maybe if the ship is still intact somewhere they'd be able to pick me up."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Kalidae!" he shouts into one of the adjoining rooms.

"Yeah?"

"Do you have a Sending?"

"Yeah."

"The traveller from another world needs to contact his army."

"Sure. What do you want to say? And to who?"

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"Uh, I need to tell Captain Hwan Neul Ryung that I, Star Cadet Kyeo Sebe Luk, am alive, and where I am. - in terms that would make sense viewing the planet from space, like, the Nth biggest continent so many miles from which coast. Also this needs to be in Ibyabekan unless the message magic also does translation."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. It doesn't. Uh, you can say exactly what to say and I can repeat after you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You may want to practice first, to make sure your pronunciation is all right, and you'll... have to tell me where this is, since I don't know."

Permalink Mark Unread

"This is the Worldwound. It should be very visible from space. There's a planar portal to the Abyss. We're on the northern end."

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Kyeo experiments with attempting to speak Ibyabekan around the magic; it turns out he can do that okay. "Captain, Star Cadet Kyeo Sebe Luk reporting by proxy via ostensible magic, alive and whole, at the north end of a visible planar portal, 'the Worldwound'. I await pickup or orders."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a bit too long, can you trim out four words -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh. Kyeo Sebe Luk reporting by ostensibly magic proxy, alive, whole, north of visible planar portal, 'the Worldwound', awaiting pickup or orders."

Permalink Mark Unread

She repeats it with an air of intense concentration.

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"That's understandable," confirms Kyeo.

The captain replies, but is obviously unfamiliar with Sendings. "Who is this - does this have to do with - who do you report to, what planet - stand by while I go and get, ah, someone -" and then he's cut off.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I didn't understand that, did you?" says the wizard.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. Well - he sounds confused and doesn't want to tell you anything in case you work for Ibyabek's enemies, I suppose, which makes sense. I - guess I should maybe try again later?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You should probably try a scry, so you can sustain a longer conversation. That one takes an hour to do, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know... anything about magic, so you may have to explain a little more what it would do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Right. A scry is a spell that lets you look at a target over a great distance. Sometimes you can do simple magic through the scry, in which case you can talk to them. It lets you talk for significantly longer than Sending, so it's probably the best way to get in touch with your ship. However, it has a long casting time; if I start now I'll be done in an hour. It might make sense to talk for ten minutes first. It's up to you, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The reply didn't sound like he'd be ready in ten minutes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, I mean, it might make sense to talk for ten minutes about magic and what you're doing here and what Ibyabek is like, before I start a spell that takes an hour. In case we think of some other plan that makes more sense. Your world doesn't have magic at all?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Right."

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"Do you know how you got here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. I hit my head at some point."

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Sympathetic nod. "What's Ibyabek like?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's the second planet in the Ibyatok system. It's governed by Glorious Leader Lut Naar Am."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow. Is it mostly humans?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's all humans. Humans evolved on a planet called Earth and colonized the galaxy from there. I have no idea where you came from."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I guess probably Earth if that's where all the other humans in the galaxy come from? How do you know that? How long ago was it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Humans first left Earth hundreds but not thousands of years ago."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...then that doesn't explain anything, we've been here much longer than that. What is Ibyabek like? What are your gods?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Why does everyone expect Ibyabek to have gods?? "We don't have gods."

Permalink Mark Unread

"....what, none of them? Huh. Okay. What's that like - that's not a very helpful question? Who organizes, uh, courts, and aid to the poor, and banks, and orphanages and so on?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The state handles that class of thing except we don't need banks and don't have poor people, having progressed beyond the use of money."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- you ...don't have poor people?"

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"...no, because we don't use money." Kyeo is pretty sure that poor people are people who have less money than everyone else, so.

Permalink Mark Unread

"But do you have, uh, people who are hungry sometimes, people who are sick and can't get a healer to come heal them because they don't have anything to trade in exchange, people whose house is too small for all of them to live in..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Nobody has to pay for food or medicine," Kyeo says. "Although we don't have any magic healing. I think people's houses are generally the right size."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess most people could just grow their own food," she says, but she sounds slightly confused. "Are there not cities or armies? Is everyone a farmer?"

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"There are cities and armies and we don't all grow our own food," he says. "I'm in the military."

Permalink Mark Unread

"How do the people in the cities get food? Do they trade city goods for it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. People on less civilized planets have to make exchanges to get things they need but on Ibyabek they don't. The farmers grow food, and the truckers bring it to the city, and then everyone gets food, because otherwise people might starve. The farmers do also get things that are made in cities when they need them but it's not a purchase."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, okay. Will they give our starving people food, once we can contact them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think maybe you'd have to become part of Ibyabek? Or the starving people could move to Ibyabek."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What would becoming part of Ibyabek work like?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know, we've never had an annexation on another planet before."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Which gods do you permit the worship of? ...I guess if you don't have any maybe you've had no reason to figure that out -"

"Who does your military fight?"

"How would they end hunger, if we joined..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We have to defend our part of the solar system against various bad actors. I don't know the logistics they'd need to do to get another place up to Ibyabekan standards."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Right but just - in general, what kinds of things would they be doing, do they have... crops that grow better?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know how much magic is helping yours but there have been improvements over time relative to the last time any Earth-extracted human used a sword."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do we ...have to join Ibyabek for them to teach us those?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know. Probably not, there are planets we trade with that aren't part of the Ibyabekan state."

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Nod. "The Chelish people who captured you. What were they interested in?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The sidearm and spaceships."

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They exchange grim nods. "What did you tell them about that?"

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"I don't know much, I'm not an engineer. She looked at the sidearm but didn't touch it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Just one person? The one who found you?"

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"I exchanged words with other people but not as many."

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"How long has it been since you arrived -"

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"I landed yesterday."

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More meaningful glances are exchanged. 

"What are the terms," someone mutters. 

     "I'd have to check."

"We should have someone there, though -"

      "Yes. I'll ask Lodie."

"Did you have questions about Golarion?" someone else asks him, loudly, over the other conversation.

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"...I mostly just want to know where it is but I'm not sure anyone knows."

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"I'm sorry. I know some astronomers we can at least ask for star charts."

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"That would help a lot."

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"You should know that there is some chance Cheliax will try to get you back. If you want, we can get you out of here now to prevent that; if you'd rather stay since it's the location we gave your people, we can just have someone on hand ready to teleport you if there's trouble."

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"- whatever you think is best," Kyeo says, not super clear on why he would have strong opinions about this.

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Glances around the room again. "Vigil," someone says decisively. 

The wizard holds out her hand again. "Let's go."

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He accepts her hand.

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And then they're somewhere else: a stone city, still visibly from a time period with less technology but much less impoverished-looking than the barracks at the Worldwound. She smiles at him. "Welcome to Vigil."

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"Thank you. Ah, where is this -"

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"My paladin order is based here. It is the largest city in our country of Lastwall. The main reason I brought you here is because it's safer than most places from Cheliax, which will try to use the contact with your world for evil purposes, if they learn of it. We can get you a comfortable place to stay while you're here."

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"The way she described 'Evil' made me - confused about the translation magic," Kyeo mentions.

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"...Cheliax is ruled by the forces of Evil. It has been for nearly a hundred years. They raise children thinking that Evil is the right way to be and that Good is pathetic, or dangerous. They do it because when they die, Evil people are damned to Hell, and then Asmodeus can use them."

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"But they still call it 'evil'?"

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"I think people'd be less Evil if they were misled into thinking it's Good? I think an important part of the way they're damned is that they know it's Evil and choose it anyway. But I am not an expert on Cheliax." Grimace. "Hopefully they won't even find out that you're here."

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If she says so. Kyeo nods politely.

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"Why don't I get you a room and then, uh, there'll be a lot of meetings, and we'll ...need to pray about some things, I think, and in the morning we can have someone scry your ship for you."

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"Thank you."

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She bundles him off to a room that is a significant step up from the barracks, furnished with a bed and dresser and table and altar and fireplace, and thanks him, and tells him to just stick his head outside and ask if he needs anything, and then hurries off after flagging someone down to stand guard at his door.

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He doesn't really know what the altar is for but he can sit on the bed and... stare at the wall, he supposes.

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The altar has candleholders and fresh candles and a stone figurine of a woman in armor, raising her sword to the sky, and a short handwritten text the translation spell lets him read, that begins 'I am my weapon.'

Bells ring, outside, and someone brings him dinner.

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At least so far they're feeding him, but, well, so was Carissa. He thanks the someone and eats.

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There are more bells. It gets dark. The person standing outside his door gets replaced with three different people.

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He sits there, becoming a connoisseur of slight variations in boredom, until the sun is down and it seems reasonable to go to sleep, which he then does.

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In the morning a whole group of people come to get him. The wizard from before is with them, but in the back.

"Good morning, Kyeo," says a unfamiliar person, earnestly. "I'm Isavel. We're going to start on the scry for you, and we have a couple of other questions in the meantime, if that's all right."

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"Good morning," says Kyeo.

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One of the people fills a basin with water and then starts moving her hands over it.

"That's the scry," says Isavel. "Should I take that as 'no more questions, please'."

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"I'm... not clear on what my obligations to my command are under the circumstances. If I'm taken as a prisoner of war it's name, rank, serial number, but this is a much stranger situation. It will depend on what you ask."

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"You're not a prisoner of war," she says very earnestly. "We're trying to keep you from Cheliax because they are Evil and if Asmodeus knows about your world he might attempt to conquer and damn it, too. But we're going to try to get you back to your people as soon as possible, and it's entirely all right if there are things you can't answer for us. 

Can you explain - how Ibyabek became the kind of place it is today? It sounds like it's unusual among the worlds you know of?"

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"It is, yes. The Ibyatok system was originally colonized under the name Sohaibek and three planets in the system were settled. Pheon Naar Am, the original Glorious Leader, was a philosopher and he saw that the way the people of Sohaibek lived and were governed was bad for them, and he convinced the people of what was then Inner Sohaibek to join together and resist the unjust government, and succeeded, but on Outer Sohaibek right philosophy didn't make it to enough people and they started a war, and Old Sohaibek, in between the two, was melted in their crazed attempt to prevent the Glorious Leader's ideas from taking hold there, but we were able to fight them off in the end and keep Ibyabek as it is now." It is almost exactly what he told Carissa; he has it memorized.

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" - the world was melted? How?"

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"There is an advanced weapon that can do it."

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"Does Ibyabek possess such a weapon. Is it - simple to describe, such that once people know of it they too can build it."

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"Yes, and - not if you're starting with swords and magic."

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They glance at each other. "That might -"

"Asmodeus wasn't with Rovagug."

"I said it might, let me finish, warrant revisiting -"

"I don't think so, the justification there was that this way's less suspicious."

"I just want to pass it along."

"Fine, go do that."

 

 

"Sorry," says Isavel after a minute. "It's a lot to take in. The gods aren't ...limited to swords, in the things they can build, necessarily, so it's scary to imagine they might get their hands on such things."

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"The weapon also does not involve... prayer? in its manufacture. It's a piece of very high technology."

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"...I should hope no god would grant it to us," she says, looking absolutely astounded. "I mean that They could probably build it Themselves. With technology."

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"I apologize, I don't know how magic and gods work."

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"Not your fault, we should have explained. Gods are ...people. They are very powerful people. They can do much much more than us. Some of them have goals that are very hard for us to understand, because we are so small compared to Them, or because They were never human to begin with. But while we do pray to them, answering prayers is only a tiny fraction of what They do, and if these weapons were dangerous it wouldn't be because of anything to do with us. Does that make sense?"

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"Not especially. Uh, Ibyabekan has a word for 'god' but it refers to - ancient superstitions -"

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"...and now I am the one who doesn't really know what you mean. You have the word but not any gods? You...used to think you had gods, but you didn't? Did they leave?"

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"They never existed, people just - attributed natural phenomena to imaginary beings for some reason until humans learned more about science."

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"I....see. And you are - unsure if we're doing that too?"

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"You do have real magic, I think. But it occurred to me to wonder."

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"The gods raise people from the dead. I have seen them do it. In the Inheritor's divine domain in Heaven, the forces of Good are marshalled for war, and there are people I knew who are there now among them. And a god died, a hundred years ago, and it was immediately obvious to everyone because storms tore apart the harvest everywhere and quakes swallowed cities and countries drowned and his followers stopped receiving miracles."

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"People coming back from the dead is very impressive magic - if they didn't die ten minutes ago and gently - but terrible storms can happen on their own."

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"The god, Aroden, had announced his plans to manifest on Golarion. Instead, the whole world, places thousands of miles apart from each other, had two weeks of storms and lightning, even in places where such weather was very rare, and five cities were swallowed by the earth, and a permanent hurricane formed and drowned the country that had previously been there below the sea. Two weeks later the storms cleared, everywhere at once. At the same time the god's clerics stopped getting spells from him."

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"It's less drastic than the entire planet melting," Kyeo points out. "Which isn't magic at all."

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"...I don't really understand the distinction you are making. Things have causes. If the planet had melted with no cause that would be very confusing. Instead, the melting had a cause - a war - so it isn't. Storms all over the world would be very confusing if it happened with no cause, but instead it was caused by a war.

The precise thing we are worried about is that planets melting is the kind of thing the gods might be able to cause."

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"That's understandable. I don't myself know how to build a melter."

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She nods. "Anyway. After the revolution, Ibyabek stopped using money? To marshall its whole world as Heaven, as an army in wartime, as a single pool of resources to be dedicated as needed?"

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"...what I know about Heaven is what you've told me, but the single pool of resources thing sounds right."

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"Towards what do they direct those resources?"

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"Policing the space border with Outer Sohaibek - it's more manpower-intensive than a land border by a long shot. And making sure everyone on the planet is fed and cared for appropriately."

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"What danger does Outer Sohaibek pose? Are they trying to melt another planet? Is there an active state of war?"

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"Not active war. I'm not sure I should describe the state of affairs beyond that."

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"That's fair enough. But - we want to help. We would be interested in adding our resources to your own, and addressing our shared problems as one."

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"I'm not authorized to entertain the offer myself."

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"I understand. I hope you'll convey it for us."

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"I'll give my captain a complete report when I can."

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"Working on it," says the person praying over the pool of water.

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"Ideally he'd be able to take the complete report in private. I will give him as much report as he asks for over the magic thing."

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"Hopefully once we have a scry he'll be able to come here, but we can give you our oath that no one in this room has Tongues up or a way to speak your language - the language-spell we're using only gives you ours," says Isavel.

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"I can tell him that you gave oaths on that, then."

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She looks slightly nonplussed, but shrugs. "I'll have someone bring breakfast. Are there other things you'd want to know for your report?"

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"Are there star charts to be had yet?"

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"We did our best overnight, but can get better ones with more time." She passes them over. They're obviously painstakingly measured and labelled by hand.

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Kyeo frowns at them.

"This is not my galaxy," he concludes in fairly short order. "I don't recognize this one on sight."

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"Huh. In that case it seems likely it's a Plane Shift to get you home."

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"And that is?"

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"A spell we have, but - not an easy challenge, to go a place we've never been. We'll of course do whatever we can."

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"'Planes' is a term for galaxies?"

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"No. But - it seems likelier you got here from another plane than from another galaxy in this plane, since I can't even think how that'd happen, and even if that is what happened the fastest way back will probably be over some other plane."

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"- it may be some sort of magical force has invaded the system. Or the Outer Sohaibekans have it -"

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" - oh. Yes. That - seems possible. Your command will presumably know whether that's what's happening, but not want to tell you; I'd appreciate it if you'd convey that we want to help and can get magic to their side as well."

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"Thank you."

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Breakfast is brought. It is eggs and toast and butter and apples; the locals all start eating, though not hurriedly.

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Kyeo eats pensively. Eggs first.

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"Scry's finished," says the person casting it, when they're finishing breakfast. "...not high enough quality to do magic through, though. Damn it. Can everyone else who's going to want to scry this guy come take a look to help with their familiarity -"

"I'll tell them to do that."

"Thanks." She sighs. "Kyeo, do you want to at least have a look? I'm sorry the scry's low quality, I'll try again as soon as this one's expired."

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Kyeo goes and looks.

"- Outer Sohaibekan prisoner of war," he says. "He won't be able to do anything from there."

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"Oh. I'm sorry. In that case who should we be trying to reach?"

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"I'm - not sure. Anyone else on my ship may also have been taken..."

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"Your Supreme Leader?" someone suggests. "This is - important - if your enemies might have magic and you're on a world your people never knew existed..."

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"Glorious," corrects Kyeo. "I - maybe - it's not done - my father maybe. He works in the government, not directly under the Glorious Leader but not too many steps away."

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"We can try that."

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"Suor Sebe Luk."

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The cleric dismisses the scry, and starts a new one. Frowning. 

 

People are muttering to each other.

"I want to ask the Chelish wizard who saw him arrive -"

"Mmm."

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"Ask her what?"

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" - several things," said the person who said that, a bit stiffly. "Uh. Whether anyone on their side noticed any kind of magical signature associated with your arrival, most directly."

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Kyeo nods.

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"I should....explain Cheliax." She looks sort of unsure of this, though, on the whole.

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"Explain what about it?"

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"Well....most countries vary, but they're more or less the same sort of thing? They've got lots of people who are just trying to get by, and then some good ones and some terrible ones. But Cheliax was conquered in a terrible war by devil-worshippers, and Asmodeus directs it, and His aim is to damn everyone there, so He can have their souls when they die. So they make the children report each other for minor things, they punish them very harshly, they read their minds to make sure they're loyal enough to the state, they execute anyone who isn't, and that way they make everybody Evil. And they convince them that they deserve it. We are allied with them, at the Worldwound, to prevent demons destroying the world, but Hell is a menace to Good everywhere and it'd be very bad for them to learn of Ibyabek. They'd try to make it Evil."

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"I don't think I know enough about devils," Kyeo remarks after a pause.

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"Devils are lawful evil people. If you are lawful evil when you die, or if you're neutral evil and go to Hell, you become a minor devil, and the cruelest and most ruthless among them eventually become more powerful devils."

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"I also don't know enough about - the law and evil and so on."

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"Law is about adherence to a strict code of rules, usually for the sake of making it possible for people to rely on you or negotiate with you. Devils are lawful in the sense that their word is binding and when they make bargains they keep their end of them. Paladins are also lawful. We do not betray our word even when to do so would confer a substantial short-term advantage. Evil is - the ideology opposed to human lives being free and peaceful and happy, and to humans having the chance to trust in and love and honor one another. Most Evil beings are Evil simply out of being self-serving -- they hurt others because they do not care for those others to live - but Asmodeus specifically believes that people should not be free, and Rovagug specifically believes that no worlds with life on them should exist, so some of them are like that..."

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"That's... not the kind of philosophy I'm accustomed to, but I suppose it makes sense for things to be different here."

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"What philosophy are you accustomed to?"

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"Ibyabekan philosophy is about cooperation under the authority of the state to make sure everyone is taken care of, and I've been glossing that as lawful good, but it's not specifically about promises or being lenient with children or about people pursuing individual preferences freely..."

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" - well, Lastwall is Lawful Good, but we're also the only bastion of Good in northern Avistan, we're fighting wars and we need to win them, there are lots of situations where it's necessary to do what is best for the group and not whatever speaks to one's heart individually. A lot of this is about - the ideal state, what we want when the wars are all over; Evil thinks people are nothing in themselves, and Good thinks people are everything, in themselves. Does that - sound closer to right?"

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"I'm not sure."

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"If you'd like someone can read you different churches' accounts of Good and you can figure out which one is closest to the Ibyabek one."

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"Maybe. Is this - a current priority, here -"

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"Well, when we meet up with Ibyabek and ask about allying with them it'd be good to have an understanding of where they're coming from and what they'll care about most as allies."

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"I'm not a diplomat, so you shouldn't put a lot of weight on my guesses."

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"I understand. But you've done a good job of explaining it. And - I don't think it takes diplomats, or great carefulness, for people to learn from each other, and we have a lot we can learn from you."

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Kyeo looks over at where the scry on his father is in progress.

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The person conducting it is still waving their hands in the air, apparently deep in thought.

"We could take a break?" someone says.

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"I'm trying to think what I'll say. It's been some time since we've spoken."

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"Does someone have a spellglass on the scry -"

"Yeah," someone says, and produces a contraption made of two glass bowls with their narrow tips glued together, sand trickling from the top one into the bottom one. "We've still got about half the time."

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Nod nod.

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"Why don't we leave you be so you can think what to say - do you write? We can get you parchment and ink..."

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"...I can write, yes."

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"Good! Hoset -"

    "Mmhmm," says one of the other people, leaving. 

She stands up too. "Should we get you anything else?"

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"I don't believe anything else is urgent."

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They head out. Hoset comes back in a minute or two later with parchment and ink and a feather quill.

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Kyeo is quite baffled by the feather quill. He writes with it badly, going much too fast and changing direction in ways it won't accommodate, and eventually figures it out, only to scratch out all his writing before he's gotten more than a few words into a sentence.

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Eventually the man casting the scry looks up at him. "It worked. I can convey a message for your father, and convey responses, for the next ten minutes."

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Kyeo has a few notes jotted down awkwardly. He switches to Ibyabekan, stammers a little over his notes, and finally manages, fluidly enough to be copied, to speak a few sentences.

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The man whispers them over his pool of still water. A world away they can be heard like someone is whispering in Kyeo's father's ear.

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Suor Sebe Luk startles, checks some nearby devices to see if they made a sound, looks around the room. Kyeo goes on for another sentence, much like the first.

Suor replies. They go back and forth, it's a bit repetitious. Kyeo doesn't seem to want to look at the scry.

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Well, not all father-son relationships are uncomplicatedly happy ones. 

 

The pool goes back to being a normal pool of water when the scry runs out.

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"I think he's - I think he will pass the report up."

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The man smiles at him. "Thank you. I'm sure you did your very best. Should we leave you be, now?"

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"Yes - please." The world is ending and he would prefer it do that in privacy.

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He leaves. The world can end in privacy at least until lunchtime.

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At lunchtime he is mostly all right again and able to eat.

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"Are you going to need a followup scry later?" Isavel asks him. "Do they have any way to get in touch with us? Should we be looking for a ship?"

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"They don't have a way to get in touch with us. This being the wrong galaxy, even if they knew exactly where it was it would take weeks to get here, and they don't know exactly where it is. There aren't radios on this end. I'm not sure if my ship is nearby and the captain's capture was before the magical event, or if I was the only person affected."

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She nods seriously. "Well, we're more than happy to have you here for as long as it takes."

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"Thank you, I appreciate that."

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"Did you want to - tell people about Ibyabek? Hear about different concepts of Good? Take a break until we know more?"

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"What is it you'd like to know about Ibyabek?"

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"I guess I'm mostly curious ...what it's like to live there? At what age do you marry, what are your holidays, what are special occasions like, what do children want to grow up to be..."

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"People marry when they're perhaps twenty to twenty-five, depending, men sometimes a bit older and women sometimes a bit younger. We celebrate the Day of Revolution, the Eve of Revolution - those aren't next to each other, the Eve is when it started and the Day is when it ended, months apart - and the Glorious Leader's birthday and his predecessor's birthday and their wives' birthdays and the anniversary of the first landing on Ibyabek. Those are the major ones. There's a lot of singing and some people get the day off work and there are holiday-specific details for each one. Children often want to be things like pilots or firefighters or architects, though of course a lot of them wind up in less glamorous positions."

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"What's a pilot? There's a job of fire-fighter?"

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"Pilots direct ships - or airplanes or helicopters, it's the same word but different skills. And yes, there is a job of firefighter, to respond quickly to fires. This is important especially in cities where they may spread to other buildings quickly but also in wilderness areas where they may get a lot of fuel and become very big and fast-spreading."

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"Huh."

"Is your world mostly at peace, then?" someone else cuts in. "Here children mostly want to be great warriors."

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"We are not at war right now. We do maintain a large standing military to police the border, which requires more manpower at planetary scale and in three dimensions. I'm in military service myself."

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"But it's not - aspirational?"

"That's probably healthier."

"Yes, I'm not disagreeing, just - hard to imagine."

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"I'm sure some of the children dreaming of being pilots specifically want to be military ones."

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"There are war planes? Like dragons but - mechanical?"

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"I suppose you could think of them that way. Since we control the whole planet, most of the military force is in starships like mine."

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This attracts more people, interested in starships and how wars are fought in space and what traits make someone a good starship soldier and whether there are any places in the worlds he knows of endangered by Evil.

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"I'm still not sure I'd be accurately classifying things by your scheme. There are worlds that are in various levels of conflict," he says of that last.

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Conflict where two countries both have a history of rivalry that escalates whenever they have the resources and an excuse? Conflict where one is trying to conquer others and others are trying to hold it in check? Conflict where one people is trying to wipe out another entirely? Slavers? Independence wars?

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"A mix. I didn't specifically study foreign affairs - a lot of other planets prefer Outer Sohaibek, which has a more similar philosophy to the rest of the galaxy, and that makes it awkward for them to interact with us very much."

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"What's the - similarity in philosophy?"

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"I think it's mostly that they still use money."

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People are confused by this. "That's a philosophy? ...do they also not have gods?"

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"Nobody does except on this planet that I know of."

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"There is a god of commerce but I don't know exactly how there'd be a philosophy of commerce without a god of it. I guess you could - believe all the things but think that there's not yet anyone guiding the world in that direction, that'd be coherent...all the other planets do that?"

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"There aren't any gods there. - I believe on some planets there are superstitions to the effect that there is a omnipotent omnibenevolent deity but I don't know much about that."

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"....is everything a wonderful paradise there?"

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"No. I'm not sure what the rationalization is, Ibyabek doesn't allow them to send missionaries."

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"...huh, why not?"

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"They tend to foment unrest, dissent against the state, that sort of thing. I couldn't tell you what that has to do with the omnipotent god."

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"...is dissent against the state a very big problem in Ibyabek?"

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"Well, no, but apparently the missionaries threatened to make it one."

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"...I guess we don't let Asmodeans in here," someone says, which makes people look slightly less confused. 

"That's because they'd be spies, though, not because we're scared that hearing about Asmodeanism would confuse people - or because Asmodeans have objections we don't want anyone to raise -"

"But," someone else says, "if it did - I know it didn't, I know Asmodeanism is kind of transparently horrible, but if Asmodeus came up with something that was awfully compelling and did confuse lots of people, we'd ban it, right?"

"I guess."

"Seems like a bad habit to get into -"

"You need a counterargument -"

"Sure, some people should study it, but -"

"Nirmathas wouldn't ban it, and - and we could see how that worked out -"

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"Nirmathas?"

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"One of our neighbors. They're chaotic good, so they don't have - the capacity to ban things, really, and they don't want it - it's not very good at winning but it's valuable for many different forces of Good to be trying lots of different things, in case we have blind spots we can't recognize."

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"Hm. And they didn't ban Asmodeanism?"

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"They don't really have any way to ban things. Probably if you start talking about Asmodeanism they'll all look at you very pityingly."

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"I see. It sounded very peculiar from what Carissa told me."

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"It's hard to know which of them even believe it, right, because they'll get in trouble if they say anything wrong."

"The ones at the Worldwound could run, though, if they - knew it was a lie -"

"They'd have to also know there's anything better. And - there might be retaliation against their families, right -"

"I thought Chelish people didn't care about their families."

"Aren't supposed to care about their families. Which is different."

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"They can run if they decide to quickly enough," someone says. "Because they get mindread regularly and it's dangerous to be thinking about it."

"We're upsetting Kyeo."

"- Cheliax is terrible," someone says gently, "but there have been many victories against it. Half its former territory is free, now. And lots of people are working to make it more. With allies from other worlds, perhaps Hell can be defeated for good."

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That isn't really what he was pensive about. "Oh, how wonderful," he murmurs vaguely.

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They totally lack context about what he's pensive about. They go on talking, only half to him, about the Worldwound and Cheliax and Heaven and Hell and Iomedae, the Lawful Good goddess directing the war with Hell, and other worlds without gods and what to make of that.

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Kyeo only half-listens, more to get his bearings on the world and how they talk about it than to really orient himself to the conversation in front of him.

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They seem to believe there to be at least four existential threats to the forces of Good in the world and yet be on the whole pretty cheerful about this; those are the marauding orcs to their north and west, perpetually crossing the border and sacking villages and occasionally amassing far more force than that when a capable ruler comes around, the powerful undead sorcerers of Ustalav, north and east; Cheliax, and Asmodeus who works through it, and the Worldwound in the north. They apparently personally consulted Iomedae about the Kyeo situation and got advice "mostly on timing"; they are debating what they would miss if they had to give up money (the satisfaction of saving up for several years for a nice magic item: "even if you'd get it after the same amount of time, I think it wouldn't feel as earned", the ability to send some of their savings each month to a elderly mother in their home country: "I guess I could send her things but it'd be very logistically difficult and what if I sent something that's not really in demand...""

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Huh. It's actually really interesting to hear people who currently use money consider giving it up while giving voice to why that wouldn't be a completely lossless transition.

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Someone says that unless the whole world stopped using money she'd still need it to send her baby brother to wizard school; someone says that if one wizard school stopped using money then that'd be enough; someone else objects that that wizard school would quickly get overwhelmed, and probably have stringent entry tests, and so you'd be back to the same situation of not being able to send your brother to wizard school unless he was an unprecedented genius or you had money.

Someone says that he paid his friends to spend their days off building a house for him and his fiancee and he's not sure how that'd work if there weren't money, it's too much to ask as a favor and he can't repay it in kind because he's usually deployed on the border.

A wizard offers that if they weren't getting paid they'd go work somewhere where they were getting paid, no offense, or at least do that ten months of the year; you need money to get headbands and advance as a caster. Someone objects that obviously wizards would still get those things, just not in the specific manner they get them now, to which the wizard says that that's just getting paid in magic items, which is fine, but seems more like changing your currency than like not using money. 

 

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Kyeo doesn't know enough about how wizards work to have a specific vision of how they'd fit into the logistics but now he's wondering about it. "Of course people who need something for their jobs can get it, and if for wizards that's headbands then they'd have them, just like a pilot can't do their job without a ship or a helicopter; that's not the same as being paid to be a wizard."

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"It seems kind of like being paid to be a wizard," says the wizard. "Unless you don't get to keep the headband when you retire, in which case it seems worse, because I definitely plan to retire at 30 and wouldn't want to give up the headband and be all stupid for the rest of my life..."

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"Thirty? - how long are your years?"

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"A baby goes from conceived to born in three quarters of a year. I'm twenty-seven now." He looks older than Kyeo but not much older.

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"About an Earth-standard then... That's very young to retire."

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"Adventuring is a young man's game. Retired wizards still often take apprentices and make scrolls and magic items and do scries or teleports when it comes up, just - that doesn't fill the whole day, unless you happen to love doing it."

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"Oh, that wasn't what I envisioned when you said retired, I see."

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"I mean, people vary in how busy they stay once they quit adventuring. But the average is probably - read lots of books, travel the world, make magic items on commission occasionally, take an apprentice if you meet one you like or if your wife has expensive tastes or if your kids show potential..."

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"Well, making things sounds also important - I don't know if the apprenticeship thing would still make sense versus a classroom arrangement."

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"Cheliax does classrooms."

"It's because they hate any individual relationship - people can trust or care about each other, institutions can't -"

"Sure, but it's also just the best way to get a lot of wizards -"

"It's the best way to get a lot of wizards with a Chelish bent!"

"You can't say they don't train competent wizards."

"I can say that. Name a great Chelish researcher. There are none, because research is the enemy of Evil, you have to be allowed to think in order to invent..."

"There are plenty, they're just - narrow. No opinions on anything but magic."

They get into a heated argument about this. 

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On this subject Kyeo is silent.

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Eventually someone rolls her eyes and tells the wizards to go argue this somewhere else, if they must - they've gotten into some very technical point about symmetric spellforms as part of a dispute about whether Cheliax deserves credit for the great Andoran wizard Morgethai - and they fall silent, and then someone points out they've run well over the end of lunch and everyone scatters to go back to work. "Do you want to go back to your rooms, do you know how to find them from here," Isavel asks.

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"I think I can remember." He meanders back roomward.

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This turns out to be characteristic of Vigil, and remains the same for the next few days. There are people clearly assigned to him, but not very concerned if he cares to be alone; there are enthusiastic lunchtime arguments about religion and about money and about the nature of Good. The people chosen by their god and given magic powers are the most important and the most trusted, though they sit at the same tables and participate in the same arguments; the people not chosen by their god generally seem to aspire to it, but not urgently. Their city is poorer than Ibyabek in many ways - it doesn't have indoor plumbing, or appliances of any kind, and magic lights for nighttime are apparently expensive - but there's lots of food, some of it meat or eggs, at every meal.

Kyeo is invited to religious services on holy-day, the seventh day of the week.

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"I'm not sure that would be appropriate."

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Shrug. "Okay. We'll catch you at dinner, then."

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He sits around being bored a lot. Wonders a bit what the services are actually like but can't think of a way to find out without going to one and maybe being surprised by something he oughtn't do.

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There is singing, that can be heard all the way from here, but otherwise it's hard to guess. At dinner, they don't discuss services much, just usual things like deployment schedules and world events and scary fights they were in and philosophy debates. Tonight there is an extended argument about what mistakes the church (and Iomedae Herself, though they know less about which decisions were definitely Hers) made in the early years of the Chelish Civil War; people are divided over whether it was hopeless because Asmodeus is a much older and more powerful deity than Iomedae or whether it would've been winnable if Aroden's death hadn't been such a hit to morale.

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He misses singing. But he couldn't anyway.

It makes sense that they're leaving lots of leeway around Iomedae's decisions so they're never committed to the position that she made a mistake. Interestingly suggestive that they're identifying Asmodeus as more powerful but he supposes if these things are real that might just be a fact.

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"Are we expecting to hear back from Ibyabek," someone asks him later in the evening. "Should we be scrying them again."

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"I'm not sure. They aren't accustomed to contact of this kind and I can't be sure what reaction my father will have gotten if he chose to tell anyone instead of - checking himself into a hospital. It may be prudent to scry again."

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"Lemme flag someone down." And the same person who scried last time is fetched, and starts another one.

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Kyeo attempts to organize his thoughts about what to say, though really it'll depend on what they see.

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As before it takes an hour; the man works mostly in silence, humming to himself, something upbeat. Marching music.

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Kyeo sways slightly to the rhythm. Doesn't try to hum along even once he has the tune.

Kyeo's father is - asleep, in the dark, beside Kyeo's mother.

"- can you get a closer look at that object," Kyeo says, pointing, "so I'll know what time it is there and we won't have this problem again?"

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"Scries can't move much." He tries tilting it a bit, though.

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Kyeo squints. "Can't tell," he finally concludes, shaking his head. "It looks full dark, though, he won't be up in the next ten minutes. I suppose if Mother's there he hasn't checked into a hospital."

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"We can try again in the morning, if you'd like."

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"It's probably necessary."

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"All right." He looks piercingly at Kyeo. "You don't have to return, if you'd prefer not to."

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"It doesn't speak poorly of a place if it's not for everyone. And sometimes it can help to start over somewhere new."

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"My father and I don't tend to cross paths under most circumstances."

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He nods. "It was brave of you, then, to try to get this important information to official attention through him, even though you're estranged."

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"Thank you."

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"He should be proud of you, even if he won't be." And he turns to leave.

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That's not exactly the thing, but Kyeo doesn't want to explain to himself what it is, let alone these people.

He goes back to not doing much.

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They try the scry again in the morning. It takes two tries but eventually works.

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Suor's awake. He's at his desk, in his office, on the phone. "Can you hear him?" Kyeo asks.

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"Yes." And he tries to repeat what he heard without understanding it.

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"I don't have context on - who he's calling, or - but it seems to me like he may not have passed up the report. - it would sound very crazy."

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He nods. "Should we ...keep trying? Is there someone who might be better?"

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"I don't know who else short of the Glorious Leader himself and if he thinks he's going crazy that could be very bad. There isn't any magic, you understand, it'd just be - hearing voices - does that happen here?"

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"Sometimes minor spirits talk to people," he says, uncertain. "Or they're haunted."

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"Any organ can fail, and that includes the brain, and when the brain fails it can do so in peculiar ways, like hearing voices. I - suspect my father has not gone to a hospital because he is hoping it will go away on its own. The equivalent of a cold rather than a flu."

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"Would the hospital be able to tell he isn't actually sick?"

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"I'm not a doctor. Maybe. Failures of the brain are often more complicated than ordinary injuries and infections, and even those are often very complex."

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"Hmmm.

 

 

Do you think that Ibyabek would help us fight Hell. If we manage to get a hold of them."

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"I'm not sure we have forces that can be usefully committed since this is the wrong galaxy and we don't know how I got here. But it seems possible to work something out."

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"Then it is - really important to us, to keep trying. I don't know what the most practicable way to go about that is. Do you think it is talking to your father? To both your parents simultaneously - that would make it seem less likely to be sickness, right - we could perhaps observe the Supreme Leader and learn the name and identity of an advisor, and speak to them..."

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"Spying on the Supreme Leader is dubious even if you don't speak the language! I suppose we could try my mother - I didn't realize you could do two of these at the same time -

- could go to someone from another planet -"

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"- oh?"

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"I've met the ambassador from United Kular to Ibyabek. I don't know what he'd do about this either, mind, but..."

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"Would their - different philosophy - mean they'd work for Hell if they got paid to?"

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"I'm not sure. I mean, the ambassador in particular already has a job - I don't know how much he's paid, the number wouldn't mean anything to me."

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He nods. "...perhaps we could observe the ambassador, and then pray on it?"

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"...I suppose."

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"Iomedae is a very good judge of character," he explains. "All gods are, it's intrinsic to how they see the world, they see who is the kind of person they can make a cleric and who isn't...but since your world is so far they can't see it except through our magic."

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"Wulaar Peng."

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"Thank you. I'll get someone to try later, that's my scries for the day."

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Kyeo nods.

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They have a lower hit rate on Wulaar Peng, for whatever reason, but manage to get a scry through on the following morning. 

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Wulaar is... in the shower! It's a little awkward.

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Oh, that is awkward! They still have everyone who can scry gather around and squint at him to increase familiarity for targeting the next scry.

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Kyeo does NOT watch Ambassador Peng in the shower.

He finishes his ablutions, shrugs on a robe, goes out into a hallway in the little ambassadorial house, kisses his wife good morning, puts a slice of bread in a pan with butter, and the scry is up.

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Well, they'll try again in two days.

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"I thought you got new magic every day."

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"We do, but there's a priority operation tomorrow and we're going to need everyone with fourth-circle and fifth-circle slots to have them for that."

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"Oh." They're probably intentionally not telling him about that, he won't be rude.

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They are indeed intentionally not telling him about that. They're gone, the next day, almost everyone with fancy robes indicating powerful spellcasting, wizards and clerics alike; there mostly isn't gossip about their absence in the dining hall, because gossip about ongoing operations isn't harmless like gossip about world events or religion or who should hook up or whatever else comes up.

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When she hears that Kyeo vanished from the barracks with no explanation the first thing she feels is a jolt of terror. If he was telling the truth - and now someone else got him - they'll kill her, for not escalating it immediately. Of course, if he's lying or delusional and from Tian Xia and she had escalated it -

- but that won't matter -

- she spends about an hour staring at the wall thinking stupid unhelpful things like that she still isn't sure what she should have done and she has no idea who took him and she has no idea why and if she'd happened to get called for mindreading in that hour, or maybe even the next day, she would have died of it, but they don't have that many mindreaders, and she has time to think.

She met an adventurer from Tian Xia who claimed to be from a place called Ibyabek, which she hadn't heard of before but which is apparently on bad terms with most of its neighbors so that's not surprising. He claimed Ibyabek was its own world, which must've been the translator malfunctioning or him delusional or lying to impress her, because he was a perfectly normal human, oddly dressed, his gun of unfamiliar make but she's a magic item enchanter and couldn't evaluate it. She spent a little time with him anyway, even though he claimed his society of origin had no wizards of note at all, because she wanted to get to the bottom of the delusional-or-lying question, but she hadn't quite sussed it out when he suddenly teleported off, which conclusively pointed at lying, the person he was representing himself to be was meek and had no allies or interests there. 

She did nothing wrong, nothing interesting happened, there was nothing worth escalating, and he got bored or heard of a problem elsewhere and left.

(They'll of course still kill her if Kyeo turns out to be from another world and this has conspicuous effects anywhere she hears about them but - it might not. And he's not from another world, she thought it all through and the only world worth thinking about or planning for is the one where he's not, and over time this turns into 'he's not', in her head, and then sits more comfortably.)

They call her in for mindreading four days later and she goes and answers all the questions and is asked if she's contemplated defecting and says that she hasn't, which is true, even in that hour of panic she managed not to think that she could possibly escape Asmodeus.

She goes back to her normal life. Finishes an artifact, collects the bonus for being early, again. She's got enough for a headband. 

 

And then one morning when she's starting the next artifact someone opens the door, loudly and abruptly enough to throw off her concentration. She looks up, irritated, and then - 

- too afraid to be irritated, too afraid in fact to think at all...

There are three of them, in black full plate with visors drawn, faceless, the insignia of a Hellknight order she'd recognize on sight if she were thinking, which she's not. 

           "Carissa Sevar?" he says. The face mask distorts his voice. 

She nods. Which is stupid, maybe, but - 

           They have handcuffs, glinting with the age-resistance of a magic item. Antimagic, probably. She wants to get a proper look at it, which is the most laughably stupid want in the entire universe. They cuff her hands behind her back and blindfold her and Teleport. She does not try to resist the Teleport, and suspects she couldn't anyway; the handcuffs are doing something in addition to antimagic, something that feels like having been hollowed just slightly.

 

They ask about Kyeo. When she met him, what she saw, what he said, who she told, who else knows, were people curious about his disappearance, did she report it, did anyone else. She answers truthfully and they don't bother to hurt her yet, even when at one point she has a stupidly difficult time forming words because she's so upset with herself. She wants to know how they found out but she is sure that she'll die without knowing that.

Worthless people and impressive people go to the same Hell, she reminds herself, but she keeps crying anyway. 

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Kyeo is less bored mostly because he is now instead constantly wrestling with the desire to suggest scrying Sarham, even though Sarham can't help at all with anything these people want and the idea of Sarham checking into a hospital over hearing voices makes him want to vomit.

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The missing spellcasters are back the next day, and can try again for Wulaar Peng.

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If they try a little later in the morning they can catch him in a meeting with some Ibyabekans that Kyeo doesn't know on sight.

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"...probably still a bad time to interrupt him?" says the caster, looking to Kyeo.

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"It's not ideal. He's probably in a lot of meetings, since he's an ambassador."

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Nod. "Maybe early mornings are best, really, as long as we don't catch him right while he's showering."

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"During breakfast," agrees Kyeo.

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"There you go." Pause. "Yesterday we took into custody the Chelish wizard you landed on when you first arrived. We wanted to know whether Cheliax is - aware of your world, or looking for you, or anything like that. It appears that they are not, which is very good news."

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Does that mean they kidnapped her or found some excuse to arrest her...? He decides not to ask. "I'm glad to hear it."

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"It means we have a little more time to get this right, and should be thinking how to get it right instead of how to do it as quickly as possible. I don't know if that changes very much about our plans, but if you had any ideas that would take a long time but might be useful in the long run..."

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"- well, if we keep telling people things, eventually someone will go to the hospital, and I suppose we could... tell someone who works at the hospital... to expect that?"

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"- huh. Maybe. I assume at some point people will consider another planet more likely than everyone having caught the same brain problem at once."

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"At some point, probably."

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SIgh. "I really appreciate all the work you're doing here. I know you didn't sign up for any of this."

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"Thank you."

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The mood in the dining hall is especially cheerful, that afternoon; most people don't know details of the secret operation but they know it succeeded and now that it's over they are licensed to speculate wildly about it.

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Seems indiscreet anyway but it's a different culture. He doesn't participate, just eats.

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"You all right?" Isavel says to him when the meal's mostly done. 

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"I'm fine."

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She looks slightly skeptical but doesn't press him, and turns her attention back to where someone who did not participate in the operation is giving a lengthy joking speech about how he determined it was definitely a secret dragon assassination.

 

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He will pass the time by asking what dragons are like.

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Dragons are enormous flying lizard-like magical beings who can breathe powerful blasts of energy and who are exceptionally deadly when they want to be. There are a few ancient ones and they're not to be trifled with; there are more young ones than that, but not that many, maybe hundreds in the whole world. 

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Interesting. There are legends about dragons where he's from but no real ones.

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...this gets them distracted from speculation about operations. Legends but no dragons? Were there once dragons? Why would there be legends, otherwise?

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"On Earth tens of millions of years ago there used to be giant reptile-bird creatures called dinosaurs, and I imagine adding wings to them once their bones were discovered wasn't a difficult conceptual leap."

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This satisfies them. Bells ring to signal the end of lunch and they bustle off back to work.

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Kyeo presumes that if he's meant to see Carissa they'll tell him.

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They bring it up the next morning while attempting to scry Peng again. "I don't know if you and the Chelish wizard were particularly acquainted but she can have visitors, now, if you did want to see her."

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They didn't form all that close an attachment but he's very bored. "Where can I find her?"

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"I'll have someone escort you." It turns out that Lastwall's prison cells are underground, down several flights of stairs guarded by people Kyeo knows from lunch, who wave at him; the cells themselves are windowless and have a bed and a bench and some books. 

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Carissa is sitting on the bench with her hands cuffed in front of her, picking at her nails; she stiffens very slightly when Kyeo walks in. 

       "You can, uh, knock when you want to leave, or yell if anything goes wrong," says his escort, pausing at the door. "You can yell too, if you want him to leave" he adds to Carissa, who glares at him.

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Kyeo nods at the guard. "- I don't have anything specific to say," he says to Carissa. "I just don't have very much to do and they told me I could come here if I liked. I'll go if you'd rather."

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"Oh. No, I don't mind. Apparently Good holds that you mustn't let prisoners go a whole day without anyone to talk to so they have random elderly men come in with dinner every day and make conversation for fifteen minutes and then leave. How're you."

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"I'm fine. Elderly men in particular, how specific."

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" - I mean I assume it's got to be people who they're confident are cleared to know and won't go accidentally mention it in earshot of a Chelish spy, but most of those people are important, so, the retired ones. I don't know why men in particular. I asked one if it was supposed to be an arrangement by which I could delay my execution by offering sexual favors and he got very offended and spent thirteen minutes explaining how Good holds that it's better to kill people than to let them convince you not to."

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"They keep trying different explanations of Good on me but not that one for some reason."

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"I don't think that's what he thought he was saying." Shrug. "You look better. More...fed."

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"They feed me, yes, and I'm not getting much exercise."

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She appears to think of a question, think better of it, look at the ground.

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"Are they feeding you too?"

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"Yes."

 

"Didn't say for how long. ...might literally be because they weren't sure if you'd gotten attached. Or it might be a Good thing where they have to right up to the end even though there're presumably starving people who aren't going to die? I'm not sure."

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"...should I be pretending to be attached so they don't starve you, or -"

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She looks genuinely confused. "...why would you do that?"

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"...so they don't starve you."

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"Uh," she says carefully after a moment, "if you are inclined to inconvenience yourself just because otherwise they will starve me, then I think that is getting attached and not pretending, not that I'm not grateful but I am somewhat surprised."

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"If I visit you every day they'll probably assume and I really don't have anything else to do."

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" - thank you. And if - I you think of anything I can do for you, I will, obviously."

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"Thank you."

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She takes a little while to think of anything else to say. "What's Vigil like? I haven't been out of Cheliax, except on deployment."

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"I haven't gone far, it's not clear if I'm actually welcome to go take walks or anything. It's a bit chilly, but Ibyabek's a warm planet, a lot of places probably seem chilly to me."

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"It's pretty far north even for Golarion. Cheliax has nice weather, doesn't snow in the winter except in the mountains and it's not often too hot to be outside even in summertime."

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"It doesn't snow anywhere on Ibyabek besides the poles and the very tallest mountains. I've never seen it. Except from space."

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"You really are from another world, huh."

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"...as opposed to?"

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"Crazy. Or confused. Or lying. I wasn't sure. I didn't really think through - all of the things that it'd mean, if you were - which was pretty stupid, obviously -"

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"What would it mean?"

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" - that it's a really big deal. It'll change the wars here, and the wars in the Outer Planes. A lot depends on - who manages to contact your world first, or whether the gods find out about it and negotiate a treaty - and in those negotiations it'll matter who was closest to contacting your world -" Shrug. 

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"Why will it matter who was closest?"

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"Uh, imagine two people hate each other, and they walk into a room with a powerful weapon. And both of them want to use it against the other, but also if they use it they're pretty likely to get killed themselves, which they strongly disprefer, and it'll destroy lots of the cities, which neither of them really want. And they can - make promises that are magically unbreakable. They might - promise to dismantle it together. Does that make sense."

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"I suppose."

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"Gods do a more complicated version of that, all the time, so all the actions against the interests of other gods cancel out and the only ones that proceed are the ones that don't or that they care about much more than anyone cares about stopping them."

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"Huh. But what does that have to do with how close various people were to contacting my galaxy?"

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" - one of the ways the thing they're doing is more complicated is - okay, so if you burst through the door to the room with the weapon at the exact same time, maybe you just agree to dismantle it together. But if one of you is first through the door, and considers it likelier than not that they'll be the one to deploy it first, they don't have a reason to agree to that anymore. So the other one might - pay them, for the agreement to dismantle it - this quickly gets too complicated for mortals to think about, but even if they end up dismantling the bomb the one that was closer to using it will get more concessions."

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"...all right."

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Shrug. "It's not very important most of the time. I mostly hear it brought up to make a theological point about why the actions of the gods aren't comprehensible, not to make - strategic points about when to tell them things... but I should've thought about it." She sounds like someone who is faintly cheered by the idea that she is in her situation for a reason that is at least kind of her own fault.

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"It sounds very hard to do... anything... with gods around."

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"...I guess. But on the bright side you don't just...stop existing forever."

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"We don't really dwell on that much."

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"I guess people can get used to anything."

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"Probably, yeah."

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"I don't know how they kill people, here, I don't know if they'll let me go to Hell or not."

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"They can stop you?"

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"Yes. I don't know if they'd bother. But it's not very hard to  - turn someone into a statue, or something, instead."

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"Wow. Why would they do that?"

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"Good is an insane ideology that has lots of rules none of which make any sense. ...also they don't want Hell to know about your world, that's why I'd do it, but - I don't really trust them to have reasons for things."

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"Do... you want me to ask?"

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"I don't know. Do you...think that'd work?"

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"Probably not, but I could try it anyway."

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"I am not clear on why you consider any of this your problem but I am curious about the answer. And about the answer they'd give you."

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"I'll ask, then."

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She seems faintly puzzled by him, but tries to shake that off and smile.

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Shrug.

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"You must be very bored."

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"They don't give me anything to do. I haven't wanted to turn up for services and even if I did they're only once a week."

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"Huh. I don't know if that's a Good thing or a diplomacy thing or what. I think paladins do lots of work, generally."

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"I suppose maybe they're thinking of answering their questions as my job."

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"Maybe. I guess they'd have lots of questions."

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"Yes. Though they don't take up a lot of time."

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"Are you not allowed to participate in religious services or something?"

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"Well, I'm not sure what they involve."

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"What things would be not allowed?"

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"I don't have a list. No one on Ibyabek anticipated any of this."

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"At Asmodean religious services they mostly read from His holy books and there's a sermon about how it's applicable to your life, and then you pray."

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"...but I have never read a holy book and I do not have any experience with sermons and I do not know what constitutes prayer, so that isn't very informative."

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"I don't know how Good does any of it and I'm not clear on what things wouldn't be allowed but you could probably ask for Iomedae's holy book." She gestures at the stack of books on her desk. "I didn't even ask."

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"I suppose I could read the books while I have the language," he allows. "I do hear them singing sometimes but I can't sing."

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"Religious services don't usually presume everyone to be very gifted at singing, they let kids do it and everything."

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"I can't at all."

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"What do you mean?"

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"It's a side effect of something, if I try no sound comes out." Shrug.

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" - huh. I'm sorry. If it's an injury they can just - heal it, a place like this has lots of healing."

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"I don't know the details. I suppose I haven't tried since the cleric fixed my concussion?"

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Shrug. "Side effect of what, a poison?"

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He shakes his head. Tries to sing a note, gets a sort of backward gasp.

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"Does it persist when you're polymorphed?"

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"I have never been... polymorphed... I think."

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"Well. I can't do magic anymore but it's not a hard spell, you could get them to try, it'd be a useful diagnostic."

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"Seems a bit frivolous, it isn't as though I have to sing."

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"Right, but you're important, I bet they'll do frivolous things if you ask. And - it's not even spending something, not always, sometimes people feel friendlier with people they're doing favors for."

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"They seem perfectly friendly already."

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"So then why not get a favor out of them?"

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"Because the magic is a limited resource and I don't need to sing."

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"It's not that limited, they'll get more again the next day and most people don't use all their spells every day. And they don't need to...what do they even do. Sit around talking about how much better they are than Evil people?"

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"...gossip," says Kyeo.

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"Good for them." Sigh. "It's your call, I guess, but I don't think you're stealing any resources from anything you'd care about."

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"I'll think about it."

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Nod.

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"Anything else I ought to ask?"

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"I don't think so? I guess I'm curious what else the handcuffs are doing. They're antimagic but they're also -" Shrug.  "That's not important, though, it's just, professional curiosity. ...and how expensive the cuffs are is probably more information than anything they tell you, about how long they'll keep me alive."

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"- right, of course it would be."

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"I'll ask." He gets up. Knocks on the door.

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The guard opens it. "Ready to go?"

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"Yes, thank you."

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And he can get escorted back out and to the main level of the city, from where he can find his way back.

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The next time he's in the dining hall he mentions, as soon as it seems loosely apropos, that the prisoner was wondering if she'd be allowed to go to Hell.

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This causes people to make faces. "Cheliax really gets to their heads."

"I hate Asmodeus."

"I hate Pharasma."

"What, for not grading on a curve?" 

"You know what I mean."

"We don't let people kill themselves especially if there might be strategic intent - having potentially arranged a resurrection, say," Isavel says. "We - don't categorically avoid executing Evil people but we try very hard not to."

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"She mentioned that you can turn people into statues."

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"That is possible to do," Isavel says. " - we don't do it as a matter of course, even with people who are Evil. But in a case like this where she has information we don't want Hell to have, if we had to kill her - we might do that, yes."

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"Are you likely to have to? She has anti-magic handcuffs- - maybe you need those for other things on a routine basis -"

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"Wizards are very hard to securely hold. We mostly don't try it on a routine basis. If an even more pressing emergency need to imprison a wizard came up that  - would be a difficult situation."

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"Not an impossible one. You can do it with a geas, but you have to renew it regularly and be sure of your wording. But - I don't think your friend is wrong to believe that we'd prefer holding her to be a temporary solution not a permanent one. Nor to believe we don't want her to go to Hell - where, I do feel it's important to point out, she will promptly be lit on fire for years and years."

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"Lit on fire."

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"Yes. The first plane of Hell is continually on fire and they leave all the new arrivals to suffer in it. Because they're Evil."

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That sounds fake. "Uh huh."

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"You can ask her! Asmodeans agree that Asmodeus tortures everyone in Hell, they just believe this is fine since - they're Evil."

"I think there are more epicycles," someone says. 

"Sure." Isavel sighs. "Since anything Asmodeus chooses to do to people is definitionally right since He matters and they don't and it's gracious of Him to bother enslaving them. Something like that."

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"She did mention that last part. I was unclear on why it was -" Adjectives fail him.

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"I think the idea is that - people matter less than gods, and ought to obey and serve them -"

"And Asmodeus is the most powerful god, and they think He'll win in the end..."

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Kyeo shakes his head. "It seems like a strange thing to think, that the magic aliens are inherently more important, just because a magic alien self-servingly told you so."

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"I think...people have a natural longing to be part of a bigger whole. A holy order, a nation, a cause, a religion...there's nothing wrong with it by itself, it's natural and good. But - it can be pointed at institutions that are unworthy of it. And Cheliax is a country designed to point it at a being as unworthy as one can possibly be. And lots of things are convincing, if they're the only thing you've ever heard..."

"The thing we want to do," says Isavel, "is convert your friend, but - if she thinks she has to go along with it to not die then it won't actually work - it's better if it's her idea -"

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Kyeo is sure glad that his bigger whole is just literally the People of Ibyabek, there's no way for that to be an unworthy institution. "Why doesn't it work?"

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"I think if you are trying to believe something so people won't kill you you end up....believing something entirely different? I'm not sure. If it gets to the point where we're going to have to kill her if she doesn't convert we will tell her that, but we're not at that point and she'll have better odds if she's trying because she thinks Asmodeanism might be wrong rather than because she thinks it is right but that she'll have to lie to us to live to go to Hell and serve Asmodeus."

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"How do you usually try to convert people?"

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"Wait for them to ask questions. Try to answer those honestly. It's - not really something you can push, not if you want to - help people decide what the truth is, rather than bully them into agreeing with you."

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"She said elderly men were visiting her every day, is that what they're there for?"

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"They are certainly people able to talk about that if she's interested but our guidelines for treatment of prisoners prohibit isolating them, even if they don't want to hear about Good at all. It's not emotionally healthy and it makes it less likely they'd have anyone they felt able to complain to if they were being abused."

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"Do people complain about that a lot?"

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"Iomedae doesn't pick people who'd hurt a helpless prisoner. But - it's not wise to just rely on that, right, that'd be holding ourselves in some ways to lower standards than we hold the rest of the world, the right way to do it is to have a god who wouldn't pick people who'd hurt a helpless prisoner and have vows that they won't and have someone for the prisoner to complain to if they do and have an inquiry if there's any sign something is up."

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That's sort of weird - maybe it's just something to do with how helpless she is exactly. "Do the handcuffs do anything besides anti-magic - she didn't try anything, but it didn't look like it would have been especially hard for her to hit me -"

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"They wouldn't stop her from hitting you. If you feel unsafe you don't have to go, of course, or you could ask the guard to stay with you, or if she wants to see you enough to agree to be further restrained while you're there we could arrange that."

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"That won't be necessary, I was just curious."

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"Of course. It's good of you, to want to know how that is done here. I think you can learn a lot about a society from how they treat prisoners."

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"I don't think I'd heard that proposed as a benchmark before."

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"Well, most societies are nice places to live for their elites, whoever those are, and most societies are - all right for most people as long as they work hard and don't get unlucky with a plague or a famine or a work accident - but a society doesn't gain very much by treating prisoners well. So if they do it, it has to be because they care about people even when it won't immediately help them."

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These people think in such weird terms. "Would it be possible for me to go on walks outside this general area?" he asks.

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"Yes, absolutely. You shouldn't leave the city without an escort but you can walk anywhere within it."

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"Is the edge of the city obvious?"

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"Yes, it's walled."

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"I see, thank you."

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"Of course. Hmm, what should you check out if you're exploring - the spire has great views, you can watch the cavalry practice on the south grounds, there's a market just a couple blocks from here where the spiral-road meets the straight one, there's the memory garden...there's the room Iomedae stayed in, once, when she was human..."

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"What's a memory garden?" he asks, instead of she was a human?

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"It's for people lost in combat. A bit less grim than the cemetery. People leave things that remind them of them, and when we get updates from Heaven about what kind of angel they are we add a sculpture."

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"...updates from Heaven about what kind of angel they are?"

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"When Lawful Good people die, we go to Heaven, and our souls are transformed by the light of Heaven, typically into angels. The process takes a long time, but eventually we join the warriors of Heaven. And people go back and forth to and from Heaven on business, occasionally, and they'll pass along updates."

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"And sometimes people turn into gods, instead, or -"

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"Iomedae ascended while alive. I think it's also possible to ascend after you're dead but ascensions are so rare I don't know much about it."

"Sarenrae started as an angel, though a native one not a former mortal," someone offers. 

"There you go."

"There's a sacred rock in Absalom called the Starstone. It is a remnant of the collision of an asteroid with our world. A god died preventing the asteroid from destroying the world, and now the rock has the essence of gods in it, and anyone who touches it and is worthy of it ascends. No one's been worthy in 800 years, since Iomedae."

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"...worthy?"

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"No one knows much about how the Starstone chooses. Aroden's the one who put it there, so maybe it was Him choosing, when He was alive - He'd definitely have chosen Iomedae, She was His paladin....but some of the other ascended gods are weird choices, honestly." Shrug. "You have to be very powerful to even get past the protections surrounding the Starstone."

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"I see. Weird choices how?"

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"One of them is Cayden Cailean. He was an adventurer when he drunkenly decided to go for the Starstone and ascended. He's now the Chaotic Good god of revelry and drunkenness." She sounds disapproving. "And then there's Norgorber, the Neutral Evil god of crime."

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"Those do sound very odd," Kyeo agrees.

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 "It's often hard to make sense of the gods' long term plans, and that was even more true before prophecy was destroyed."

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"Prophecy? Was destroyed?"

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"It used to be that gods and powerful spellcasters could see possible futures. When Aroden died that - broke, somehow, and now no one can do that, not even the gods. They can still make informed guesses but it's not the same."

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"Huh. Has any other sort of magic ever been broken in that way?"

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"Not that I know. If something broke when Earthfall - the asteroid - happened we might not know, all existing human civilizations were destroyed."

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"- oh."

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"This was almost nine thousand years ago."

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"I'm sort of confused that you haven't achieved higher technology in that time, actually. Most of my galaxy's technological progress was in far less than nine thousand years."

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"Huh. I wonder if the things you did are impossible here somehow, or if some of our gods oppose them."

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"I suppose either of those could explain it."

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"If technology is what lets you melt planets the gods probably would oppose it, of course."

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"Well, most of it doesn't do that. I suppose perhaps hundreds of years ago they prophesied it."

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"They might've done. Iomedae hasn't mentioned but the gods don't usually directly speak to people, only when it's very important."

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"Why's that?"

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"We're - very small compared to gods, and we can't understand most of how they think, and it is dangerous to us to be in close contact with them, unless they are expending lots of resources to make it safe for us and to explain things in terms that we can understand. And Iomedae is a new god but has lots and lots to do, so She has to be very judicious about how She uses resources."

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"...huh."

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"Is that...surprising?"

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"I just wasn't imagining becoming a god as involving becoming worse at things."

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"It's not that it makes you worse at things, exactly, it's that - when you have a plan that is still a human sort of plan you can explain it fine, but if your plans are now far more complicated than that and involve negotiated agreements with twenty other gods then they can't be explained in simple terms, even though you're not worse at explaining. And you have more attention than a human but still not necessarily enough attention for all the things you are trying to do simultaneously. A god that were trying to imitate a person would be very good at it, but if you just want to be a person, why become a god."

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"Mm, I see."

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"I know people who spoke to Iomedae during the Chelish Civil War. I don't know if I know anyone who has more recently than that -"

"- I got a pretty specific dream about the Whispering Tyrant, I don't know if that counts..."

"...I think not strictly speaking? It's not talking."

"I think She meets with the Glorious Reclamation people regularly but they don't talk to anyone outside the order, so..."

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"Whispering Tyrant, Glorious Reclamation..."

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"The Whispering Tyrant is in Ustalav, it's one of the threats Lastwall was founded to look out for. The Glorious Reclamation is the paladin order devoted to operations in Cheliax. They work closely with Iomedae because intelligence operations benefit a lot from comparing notes from the human perspective and the god-perspective, but they're very secretive, for obvious reasons. We worked with them to arrest the Chelish wizard - Iomedae had direct input on that, she said that if we waited ten days then no one would draw the connection between her arrest and your appearance."

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Okay, they're calling it an "arrest", that's good to know. "What actually is the Whispering Tyrant? The ruler of a country? Some sort of magical something?"

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"A lich. It's a kind of powerful undead magic user. They can be nearly impossible to destroy. He brought the orcs of Belkzen under his control and used them as an invasion force to conquer the whole north of the continent, which he ruled for six hundred years, expanding southward. A crusade called the Shining Crusade was launched to destroy him. Iomedae fought in the Shining Crusade, and Aroden's herald Arazni was killed in it. It lasted several decades, and eventually they defeated him and imprisoned him in Gallowspire, in Ustalav. Lastwall was founded to, among other things, be ready - he probably won't be imprisoned forever, and we haven't yet learned how to kill him for good..."

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"Wow."

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"You can see why we want more allies!"

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"It does sound like you have a lot on your plate."

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Bells ring and they clear out, speculating quietly about which of their many enemies will be a problem first.

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Kyeo goes for a long walk.

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The whole city of Lastwall is much like the bits of it he's seen; not rich, but tidy, and well-maintained, with children playing outside. There's a market with dozens of kinds of vegetables and fresh bread and eggs and chickens and oysters. There's a cemetary, and near it the memorial with sculptures of the dead as angels. There are parade grounds where the cavalry practices. There are churches.

He is followed by a single guard at a moderate distance; the guard makes no particular effort to conceal himself but doesn't stay right on Kyeo's heels, either.

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He didn't really expect otherwise. It's still nice to stretch his legs and get some air. He walks briskly to keep warm. Skirts awkwardly around the market.

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The city walls are tall and unmistakeable, at the city's edges; there are soldiers stationed on them, and a grand gate through which wagons piled with goods pass. There are barracks up against the walls. In a flower garden there's a boy and a girl about Kyeo's age, kissing, and past that some young children whacking at each other with toy swords.

Eventually the bells ring for dinner.

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He meanders back for dinner.

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At dinner the topic of conversation is a friend's unit which took terrible losses in a fight with a vampire on the border with Ustalav, and secondarily complaints about a neighbor's rooster, which is very loud in the early mornings apparently.

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Kyeo had neighbors like that. Roosters are sure annoying.

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They're vaguely surprised that in the age of starships no one has invented better roosters or anything but maybe technology can only do so much. 

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"Oh, it's probably possible to get new generations of chickens incubating artificially but that doesn't mean it's as efficient."

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They are intrigued by the concept of artificial incubation and agree that it doesn't sound worth the trouble for chickens. Maybe someone will figure out how to make Silence permanent cheaply, and it'll make having neighbors much pleasanter.

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That sounds like a great idea to him too.

He visits Carissa again the next day.

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She looks exactly the same except that someone has washed her face and hair. She tries to smile at him. "Kyeo."

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"Carissa. They seem to not really want to let you go to Hell, largely for intelligence reasons. Also they seem to think you will be set on fire, if you go."

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She shivers. Not about the fire part. "That makes sense. Thank you."

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"You're welcome. Also they didn't say what else if anything the handcuffs do - I didn't ask outright, though."

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Shrug. "It's not very important."

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"If you say so. I went for a walk around the city, earlier, it turned out they didn't mind as long as I stayed inside the walls."

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"Oh, that's good. Did you like it?"

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"It was nice to move around. People seem to take good care of their homes even if it's all - materials and technology a bit out of date from my perspective."

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Nod.

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"Apparently they want to convert you but think it won't work if they're very clear about that."

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"...that'd be a weird way for it to work. Good usually doesn't make any sense, though."

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"I've noticed that! They're nice people but they're not very good at explaining themselves - I suppose it must be a rare skill."

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"Maybe. I think Good is specifically hard to explain because - really what's going on is that people are inherently Evil, and if they dedicate themselves to anything except the service of a Good god they will be Evil, but Good tries to be very universalist, 'everyone can be Good!' so they end up having to be in denial about lots of things just so the pieces superficially hold together. It's hard to explain something that isn't even true all the way through. Did they say how long I have to convert in?"

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"Not exactly but if they have some other emergency requiring them to hold a wizard captive they were noncommittal about what that would imply regarding what they'd need to do with the handcuffs."

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Nod. "If they'd let me look at the handcuffs I bet I could make another pair. But - they have no reason to do that, and materials would be very expensive, for something this nice, anyway."

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"Would they? What are they made of?"

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"Magic items require spellsilver. It's a metal, occurs naturally in the earth and the elemental plane of earth, but it's rare, you have to do a lot of mining to get very much of it. Antimagic field is sixth-circle so a magic item with it would be - incredibly expensive. I'm not surprised they only have the one."

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"But you can do it?"

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"Never seen an arcane magic item I couldn't do myself, even if I'm not powerful enough to cast the spell. There's a way around that, where you lay it in little bits that don't require the same peak channeling capacity. It's much harder, but." Shrug. "I don't even know the trick for preparing spells without a spellbook and I don't know any combat magic at all, but I guess they might figure I could learn."

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"If there's combat magic why didn't you know any? You were at the Worldwound."

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"As a weapons enchanter. I made friends with adventurers and looked at their weapons so I could learn how to make them myself, and I made upgraded arms and armor for our soldiers, and I mostly used my spell slots for translation and unit discipline. A Fireball can kill one demon; a sword of demon-slaying can kill demons forever."

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"I suppose, but you don't have to be at the place being attacked by demons to make a sword for it."

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"The Worldwound attracts adventurers from all over the world, with all kinds of fancy magic items I'd never get a close look at otherwise. Most of them won't come to Cheliax because we don't permit the primary worship of other gods, so I couldn't get a look at work from elsewhere if I stayed home. And units need two wizards anyway, to get enough mindreading coverage, so there aren't any wizards who just get a cushy home deployment their whole term of service."

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"What's 'primary worship'?"

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"Well, Asmodeus is the first and greatest of the gods, and owns us, and when we die will use us for the great plan, and you aren't supposed to lose sight of that, but if while keeping that in mind you want to pray to Nethys, god of magic, for insight into magic, or if you're a merchant and pray to Abadar for fortunate ventures, or a soldier who prays to Gorum, god of battle, that's fine, but you'd get in trouble if anyone thought you were more devoted to one of those. I bet it's the same here, you're allowed to be fond of Nethys or Irori or Abadar or Pharasma, one of the unobjectionable ones like that, so long as it's the Iomedean holy services you don't miss and you give her church more money. And no one's looking for reasons to get you in trouble."

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"...nobody's seemed to hint at me about the services very much."

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"...huh. Maybe it's another Good thing like how they don't want to tell me they require me to convert?"

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"I guess. Or it's okay because I'm also not worshiping any of those other gods."

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"In Cheliax that wouldn't be enough but here it might be. Worshipping other gods first is a big deal because - gods can see better and act more directly where their loyalists are. So it's strategically important for them to not have people who are loyal to other gods around creating avenues for those other gods to interfere in their plans. People who just don't care about any gods don't invite interference in the same way."

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"They can - see through their worshipers' eyes, or -"

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"Maybe? I think not without expending more resources than they'd usually bother with? But they can more clearly see the plausible ways people will act, if those people are theirs, and be less surprised by anything we do, and I think it's cheaper for them to - arrange good luck or bad luck, arrange chance meetings, stuff like that..."

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"- they seemed to think Asmodeus didn't already know about me, though, and they aren't keeping you in a coma to prevent you from telling him."

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"We're in a building consecrated to Iomedae, She can probably not let the other gods look here even if someone who worships one of them but isn't a cleric or anything is here. Though maybe the handcuffs are doing something too, I wouldn't know. I did try praying. There are more than twenty million people in Cheliax and Asmodeus is not one of the gods most shaped for paying attention to humans, it is not very surprising that He didn't happen to look closely at me in particular. He'd know if I had reported it to one of His clerics, like I was supposed to."

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"Would this process have involved me being set on fire, at some point?"

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"I have no idea what happens to you when you die, since you're from another world, but they wouldn't have killed you, that's stupid, and they don't light living people on fire, because that's stupid. They do hurt them, sometimes, as a punishment or a lesson, but you can avoid punishments by not being stupid and learning lessons is better than not learning them and continuing to be wrong."

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Assuming they're teaching useful things, sure, but they think that they should do whatever a magic alien says, so. "Mm."

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Sigh. "Sorry."

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He shrugs. She didn't actually do it and if she had it'd just be her duty to her country even if her country is stupidly in the thrall of a magic alien who didn't even use to be a person.

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"Much safer to just be glad we're here, but -

 

 

- it's so unfair to want me to learn something they're not even willing to teach me -"

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"You could probably ask them, I don't think they'd say no," he says.

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"Maybe." She looks dubious. 

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"That seems to be one of the things the old men are for. Though also they're apparently for - complaining to if you don't like your conditions - I asked if that came up a lot and they said Iomedae wouldn't choose people who'd do that, but." It seemed like a sort of evasive answer.

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"...that doesn't make any sense to me. Does it make more sense to you?"

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"No, not really."

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"Good," she mutters, irritably. "They are presumably treating me...however they want to be treating me...what would they even get out of baiting me into complaining about it?"

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"I don't know! If they have policy on how to treat you they can just treat you that way, it isn't your job to try to keep them in line with their own rules, and if they don't have policy on it I've no idea what they're driving at."

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"Exactly! Maybe it's some kind of test? Only I am not even sure what it'd be testing for because I cannot think of any combination of traits I would have that would make it seem helpful to complain."

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"Maybe they like to use it as a way to segue into their conversion thing?" he hazards. "You say, ah, it's too hot, and they say, have you heard in Hell you get set on fire."

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"Oh, maybe. Or, there's not enough food? I could get you better food if I told the kitchen that you were reading your holy book all the time...only, there is enough food, so far, but the general shape of that -"

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"The food's pretty good," he agrees. "Though I don't know if you get the same."

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"Bread and stew. I'd eat better at home but Cheliax is richer than Lastwall, I think it's got to be pretty generous for what they're capable of. I bet there's some Good thing about feeding prisoners the same thing you eat yourself, that's exactly the kind of thing there'd be a Good thing about."

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"Mostly bread and stew upstairs too. Cheliax is better for farming? Warmer?"

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"Richer. Hell gives us what they produce. Most countries only rich children can study to be wizards or tradespeople but in Cheliax every child can. Most countries most people can't read and certainly they can't own books but an average family in Cheliax owns books. A collection, even, if they happen to be into books. And compared to most countries we have much better rule of law, no bandits and pickpockets and beggars, but Lastwall's actually probably fine on that front."

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"...how do they farm in Hell if it's on fire, or do they just write a lot of books there?"

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"There are nine layers of Hell. The only part that's on fire is the first level, which is constantly being invaded from Heaven and from the Abyss. Devils can't be injured by fire, but angels and demons can, so it's defensive. But mostly they do books and tools and textiles - people in Cheliax get to own several sets of clothes, people most places don't -- and train warriors, and outfit our army, and advise our leaders."

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"That makes sense."

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"So you wanted to go - make textiles? Write books?"

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"Devils can learn magic. It's not like ours, it's more flexible and more finicky and it takes a long time to master, and they don't export their magic items to Cheliax, they need them in Hell, but they have magic item enchanters. I wanted to have a long impressive career doing that and then when I died I could get an apprenticeship doing that, and study magic and build - magic grain-mills, magic looms, magic castles, they have all kinds of things..."

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"On one of the other layers?" he wonders.

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"Yeah.

 

 

I won't - there's no reason you'd give it to me, who accomplished nothing and failed them at one important thing and then died, there are lots of better people for it. But it's what I wanted."

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"...I'm not going to kill you right here and now if that's what you're asking."

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"What? No, that wouldn't help, I was trying to explain that it is too late for me to get to do that even if I did die now."

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"You said 'I don't know why you'd give it to me' -"

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"Why - the universe. Hell. A person in the position to decide who gets to study magic in Hell. Not you personally. I am pretty sure the guards would stop you if you tried to kill me and then we'd figure out what all the Good contortions around punishing people are and that wouldn't improve anything in the slightest. I wouldn't ask it."

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"Ah, okay."

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"Sorry."

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"It's all right."

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She does not contradict him about this.

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He'll wait a bit, to see if she has anything else to say, before he knocks on the door.

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She should be being good company but she's finding it kind of hard at the moment.

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Knock knock.

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The guard lets him out.

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He goes on another long rambling walk and comes back and this time he is actually bored enough to open the Iomedan book.

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It is divided into sections, a long part on the history of Iomedae's rise as a warrior for Good and eventually ascension, and then a part She dictated as a god explaining the intended role of Her church and how to be her follower and so on.

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It passes the time.

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Iomedae was born in Cheliax, then part of Taldor, to a rural family in a dangerous area where their livestock was routinely threatened by griffons and direwolves and so on; she was chosen as a paladin at 14, which is young but not unheard of, and had cleared the region of predators and become a significantly more powerful paladin by 20 when she finally showed up at the gates of the nearest paladin order, two hundred miles away. (This was unusual; being Lawful Good entirely on your own is hard and most paladins join an order if they're not part of one already.) The paladin order does not suit her perfectly, and she founds her own, which goes on to be one of the largest and most successful of its era (its descendents are now in Lastwall, the book notes).

And many adventures follow. She apparently spent the next sixty years or so doing all kinds of marvelous and extraordinary things, culminating in the decades-long Shining Crusade against Ustalav;  after that, she went for the Starstone, and ascended.

 

Good, in the opinion of Iomedae's holy book, is described in so many different ways because it is a balancing of so many different things, and how they are best balanced is a consequence of how you talk about them and how you prioritize them and which you conceive of as the core of the thing. Good is about defeating everything broken in the universe: disease, death, hunger, fear, helplessness, cruelty. Good is also about approaching the world in such a fashion that, even if you misunderstand a great deal about it, you will still make things better, rather than worse. Assassinations, for example, make things worse unless you're correct about all of your assumptions and motivations for them; feeding orphans makes things better even if you're wrong about most more complicated things. Many of the precepts of Good are rules against mistakes that humans will often make if not warned off them; they are not intrinsic to Good, but following them will produce more of a Good world than defying them. 

Iomedae then analyzes at length many of her own decisions while living, from her new perspective as a god who can see the longer-term consequences of such things; she thinks lots of her decisions were correct in the context of a threat as dangerous as the Whispering Tyrant but would be unwise to emulate in happier times. She thinks she made mistakes, especially while young, by being too ruthless, not noticing the complicated costs of being known to kill prisoners or to having people afraid to admit to disappointing her.  Aroden, her god, mostly did not warn her from these mistakes, being lawful neutral Himself, but She thinks Good is more correct, on the whole, now that She can see both of them properly, and She can try to explain some of why, through the lens of explaining her human errors. 

Another section is a meditation on her popular understanding as the god of fighting Evil. She refers to it, herself, as being the god of defeating Evil, and She thinks it an important difference. When children are learning to swordfight, they commonly try to swing their sword at the enemy's sword, seeing that swordfighting often involves weapons clashing in this fashion and thinking that to swordfight you ought to clash your weapon in this fashion. But when you swing a sword, you should be trying to kill or cripple the other person. They might bring their sword down in your way, they might not, but a swordfight is not your aim; it is the natural consequence of your aims being thwarted. Iomedae expects that her followers will have to fight many battles, but the battle is not the aim, and must never be mistaken for it. 

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A lot of it is going over his head, couched too much in terms he didn't grow up with, but some of it is interesting.

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The paladins seem slightly cheered when they see him reading it but they don't say anything. 

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Honestly them being that cheery about it is offputting enough. He does not ask them questions even when he thinks of some.

He visits Carissa every day, and takes walks once or twice a day, and when he has read through the Iomedan book he asks if there's anything else to do.

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There's a library if he wants more books. He is welcome to enroll in swordfighting lessons. They are confused about how Ibyabek does the things it is doing, and they are considering confidentially bringing in a cleric of Abadar to explain the case for money and hopefully clarify some of the confusions, if he is interested in that.

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Swordfighting lessons sound kind of fun, actually, even if they won't be especially useful once he goes home if ever he does. It'll keep him in shape differently than walks will, at least. He isn't sure what they're confused about but if they want him to talk to more clerics that seems fine?

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They enroll him in swordfighting lessons. They think they can get a cleric in by the end of the week, the confidentiality agreement is the hard part.

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"His god will notice, won't - he? Is my understanding."

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"Yes. So Abadar has to commit to Iomedae that He will work with Her on this which includes not allowing Asmodeus to notice. And the cleric has to agree not to tell anyone but that part's easier."

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"How does Abadar confirm that he's on board?"

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"Iomedae will give us the go-ahead."

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"With - dreams, or -"

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"Probably. Or sometimes you just get a feeling of - presence, and certainty -"

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"And that's always - genuine?"

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"It's pretty distinctive. I imagine if someone got it wrongly then Iomedae'd have to tell someone else that that was a mistake and it'd get sorted out but at a higher resource cost."

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"What exactly is worth all this just to have a cleric of Abadar's help with?"

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"We're - confused about Ibyabek. We've been doing more scrying and - I think we don't understand how the allocating things works, or -

- whether people are happy and living good lives -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"What've you been scrying?"

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"We've been - identifying people from previous scries and then scrying them too. Trying to find someone in a hospital so we can talk to people without them being upset about hearing voices. We have about twenty people we can reliably get, now, and mostly know their schedules."

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"Of course people in hospitals aren't going to be the happiest ones. There is no magic healing and they're sick."

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"We actually haven't gotten anyone who works in a hospital yet except one person who is a janitor and we think wouldn't be believed about the voices being real."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So who are your twenty people?"

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"Just coworkers of the people we started with. Wulaar Peng and your father."

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"...are they not fine? Is there something wrong on Ibyabek?"

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"I don't think there's an emergency. Just - a lot of things that don't make a lot of sense, and we don't know what we're missing, and - this is very important to get right, so we want to be very sure we understand everything."

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"What's the advantage of getting a separate god's cleric in?"

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"We haven't thought a lot about what a wealthier future human society would be like for the people who live in it, and Abadar has."

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"All right."

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"We'll update you once we've set a date."

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"Thank you."

He resumes his new routine.

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They let him know the next day that there'll be someone on Oathday, which is four days from now.

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Then he will anticipate this as a break in the monotony.

He tells Carissa about it.

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"Huh. What do you suppose confused about Ibyabek is a euphemism for. Maybe they've decided it isn't Good?"

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"Maybe? I mean, it's not going to be conveniently any one of the alien concepts that aliens have convinced people here to use, is it, but I'm not sure what in particular they've noticed."

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"What's most different between Ibyabek and here, aside from the technology?"

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"Well, there's the money thing, but I already told them about that. Ibyabek's just about mono-ethnic, I suppose - only humans and mostly the same sort. No magic."

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"They shouldn't be surprised about that."

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"Yes, I don't know what they'd have been surprised by at all. Ibyabek doesn't have any giant holes in it full of hostile wildlife, it doesn't have - people dying and getting set on fire, and I guess they could be upset that the people who die don't then go to Heaven either but again that's not a surprise..."

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"If you could change one thing about Ibyabek what would you change?"

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"Does adding Outer Sohaibek count?"

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"No, I mean, internal things. Things the government could do, maybe that some other place does better. - I was talking about this with my assigned elderly paladin and he said that he thinks Lastwall should have more wizard schools like Cheliax does."

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"Is that something Lastwall could just decide? I thought Cheliax had things like that because of Hell helping."

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"I thought so too but he said they'd have to cut other things, important things, but if they did cut enough other things they could, and he thinks it'd be worth it."

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"Oh. Hm.

I suppose I know what I would have said when I was a kid but I don't know what it would be now."

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"What would you have said when you were a kid?"

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"Would have wanted it to be - less weird to stay in close touch with family members. I missed my sister, when she got married, and thought I'd miss my parents when I was older."

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"Huh. Is it weird because caring about people is - generally a weird thing to do? Or something more specific than that?"

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"Oh, the idea is that you care very much about the People in general and don't set much store by whoever you happen to be related to."

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"Huh. Would it be less odd to care very much about - a mentor or a friend - or is that also probably distracting you from caring about the People."

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"Less weird, but you're not supposed to let affection blind you to someone's faults."

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"Huh. I don't think Cheliax would have any of the same justifications at all but the underlying thing is sort of similar I guess."

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"Oh?"

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"Oh, just, it'd be kind of pathetic, to be the kind of person who cared a lot about your parents or your siblings or your children."

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"And instead you're supposed to - care about Asmodeus, I suppose?"

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"It'd be fine to care about Cheliax, in the abstract, I'd think, though if you said it as 'The People' people'd look at you a little funny."

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"I don't know if there's a more idiomatic translation."

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"If I were trying to have a conversation in Cheliax and not be weird and someone asked what I cared about - well, they'd be being weird, but if I said that I cared about Cheliax returning to and then surpassing its former glory and spreading Asmodeanism to all the world I wouldn't be weird. Unless someone thought I was being too wordy and probably covering for something, but you know, stuff like what to say at parties is very contextual..."

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"I haven't been to very many parties."

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"Oh? Why not?"

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"Usually busy. Of course, if you're a little more generous with the word then I've been to more, with classmates and such."

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Nod. "Well. Old guy thought what I'd change about Cheliax was relevant to Good. Not sure how."

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"Oh?"

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"You can probably get him to repeat it yourself if the exact details matter but he said that Cheliax wasn't interested in raising people who could answer that question, and I said well of course not I'm not a noble or aiming at being a court wizard, why would Cheliax bother raising me to answer that question, and he said that - people noticing answers to that question is the thing that happens by default, and what Cheliax is doing is raising them to lose that."

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"What's that supposed to mean?"

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"I don't know! I wish that if they were going to kill people for not figuring out their ideology their ideology would be more straightforward! Mine is! Yours is! Mine is that you should obey Asmodeus, yours is that you should obey Ibyabek. If we were going to kill people for having the wrong ideology at least they could figure out the right one."

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"Ibyabek is a planet, not a person, so it's a little more complicated."

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"I have been modeling it as your government is like the church and tells people what the will of The People is like the church tells people what the will of Asmodeus is."

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"I guess that's a fine first approximation."

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"If Good were just about obeying Iomedae instead of Asmodeus I could work with that. It'd seem like an inferior religion because Iomedae is weaker but - you can make sense of it, right, backing the losing side of a fight is a gamble but it means a bigger reward if you end up winning."

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"We don't gamble on Ibyabek so I'm not familiar with the convention."

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"Huh. Well, in general, you can bet on a likely thing for a small return or on an unlikely thing for a large return. But that's not what Good is doing so I'm not sure it is a helpful example, really. I am curious what the cleric of Abadar will think. Abadar's neutral, which is much less confusing."

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"Well, I can pass on questions to him if you have some."

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" - if Lastwall will allow it I bet the church of Abadar has common sense and would be willing to let me make magic items for them in a dungeon somewhere, the items are worth enough to pay for the security."

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"I can suggest that. Is making magic items very fun?"

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" - I mean, if I'm doing something useful then they're much less likely to kill me. It can be fun, too, but - that's not really the priority here, if they just want a headband every two days for the rest of my life that won't be fun but I can do it."

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"That's the one that makes people smarter?"

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"Yeah. They sell well."

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"I'll ask."

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"Thank you."

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"You're welcome."

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"Good luck with figuring out whatever it is that they want."

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"I think it's less pressing for me than for you."

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She flinches slightly. "I'm working on it."

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"Good luck."

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The cleric of Abadar comes in the morning. He wears fancy magic armor that doesn't impede his range of motion much, and identifying sleeves with five stripes embroidered up them, and he's of a different ethnicity than the one predominant in Lastwall. He seems - very upset, for some reason, by the paladins' explanation of Ibyabek. 

"They don't have money?"

        "No."

"Do they barter instead?"

         "I don't think so."

"How...do people decide what work to do."

         "The government tells them."

"And it tells them how much of it to do?"

          "I think so."

"And it gives them goods when they have done the amount of work it told them to do? Or regardless of whether they did that?"

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"Regardless! - I suppose on some occasions the lunch break is scheduled for whenever some amount of work has been accomplished rather than for a specific time. But people get fed even if they're sick or something."

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"What if they are not sick but do not like their assignment and choose not to do it, or to slack at it."

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"Then someone will try to find out what's gone wrong."

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"And the thing that is wrong is that they have been told by the government that they should unload ships, but they don't like unloading ships, so they're going as slowly as a person can possibly go and will only haul one box all day."

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"I have not specifically worked in job allocation. If someone thinks they're - too good to unload ships or something - then that would probably be handled with a visit to a remedial philosophy school."

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"Do people who unload more boxes get more ...anything."

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"...praise from their managers? I suppose? A sense of satisfaction at their contribution to the People of whom they are part. I was in the military and there are promotions, there, for exemplary service, I don't know if box-unloaders are structured that way."

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He spends a minute staring at the wall, apparently thinking of and deciding not to say a dozen things. 

"In an average twenty day period how many days does a person in Ibyabek work?"

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"Twenty. Sometimes there are special occasions but not that frequently."

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Nod. "And how many hours."

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"I think that depends on the job - and the time of year for some things, farmers have less to do in the winter. My duty schedule on the ship was ten hours on, but it was more in training; when I did brickmaking it was nine unless we were behind."

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"And - how many shirts does the average Ibyabek man own."

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"That also depends on occupation. I had two sets of fatigues so I could be in uniform while the laundry was running, my father has a variety because he has to go to formal functions..."

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Nod. "How about books, do people own books?"

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"Of course people have books! And movies, which you don't have here."

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"How do people get books? Are those also allocated?"

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"Yes, or sometimes first come first serve if it's a limited run and then people share with the neighbors."

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"What is the book allocation?"

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"An age-appropriate children's book every month till your children are all grown, copies of everything official, some improving literature a few times a year, copies of the scripts of movies for the blind or deaf, reference books for every household and you can turn them in when they're worn out for new ones or just wait for the next edition."

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"Are those the only books people are allowed to write and get published?"

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"There are some others but they don't get sent to every household, they're in libraries."

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"But everyone can go to those?"

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"Of course."

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"What is the most valuable for you personally new thing that has been invented in Ibyabek in the last five years? A new - style of shoe that lasts longer, or a new food preparation, or a book series that came out..."

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"I don't know when the things around me were invented, by and large. If my sidearm were a new model I'm not sure they would have mentioned it."

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"When it became widely available is fine even if it was invented earlier, I just want to get at, is life in Ibyabek getting better over time."

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"I've been bouncing around between various institutional settings, I don't know what things are widely available as opposed to specifically issued by my school or the military."

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"I have a theory about what Ibyabek is like and my theory is that nothing has been invented or improved and things are not getting better and people are not better off than they were when your parents were young and will not be better off when your children are old. Does that sound right."

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"No! I just don't know how long my shoes will last because I got them less than two years ago and don't know exactly when the precise model of television my school had was developed and have no insight into the advances in - in the presses that print our books!"

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He looks at one of the paladins. "What has gotten better here in the last five years."

      " - we're not really looking for a lecture -"

"I am trying very very very hard not to give a lecture."

     "My wife got a new model of spinning wheel that's much faster and smoother. Is that the kind of thing you mean."

"Yes. My brother-in-law is a papermaker and he says there's twice as many papermills as when he started, and they need less repairing, that's the kind of thing I mean. Another brother-in-law dyes things, and tells me every time I see him about how they've imported new dyes, with more staying power. When I was a child the streets of Sothis weren't paved and now they are. There used to be two docks for big ships that need it to be deep, now there are eight of them. You?" he says to another paladin. 

     "I'm a soldier, like Kyeo, I don't know. We've bred better horses, I guess."

"In the system that Kyeo described - it's like you took a living breathing system where people trade for things they want, and you froze the trades they made one day in a block of ice and then you force them to make those precise trades every day for the rest of forever. With tweaks where the people in charge specifically thought of an improvement, but you can't possibly - a god couldn't see all the improvements, because they're bits of paper mill machinery that don't break as often and dyes that stay better and get people to buy your textiles not your neighbors's and the docks wouldn't do anything without the ships and the spinning wheels don't look any better unless you spin for twelve hours a day and the horses don't seem different unless you ride them and the person who knows what's any better is the person using them. Kyeo does not know any things about how anything is improved because the improving is not being done by the people who would benefit from it and there's so little of it that the people who'd benefit from it can't name any of it. It is a parody of a society, and it cannot get better, because no one is allowed to make it better, because they are all slaves."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We don't have slavery. I regret that I do not know any paper-makers and cannot answer your question more to your satisfaction."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You just have people forced to work twenty days out of twenty on a task they did not choose for no compensation with the threat of being dragged off for remedial education if they slack. Which is slavery. Every person in your entire society is enslaved."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I suppose you let your soldiers desert under fire if they decide this isn't worth the money and your firefighters extort the coughing occupants of burning houses for money before they put them out and if nobody cares to deliver mail to remote farms for an amount of money the farmers can scrape together they'll be cut off from the world and if someone doesn't like any of the jobs that happen to be available they will swear to you that they're so glad to starve instead of going back to school!"

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"When people don't like any of the jobs available to them, they do the one they dislike the least. If you randomly picked a job for them and forced them to do that job you would get in trouble because enslaving people is illegal. If they can't find any work there are soup kitchens that will try to feed them anyway. Firefighting is through the church and has a flat fee everywhere in the world that I've heard of. It is...true that if poor farmers can't afford to get the mail delivered very often then they don't get the mail delivered very often? I've never met one who wanted to be a slave about it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ibyabekan farmers aren't slaves, they're just farmers! They farm! And they get what everyone does, because we're all Ibyabek's people!"

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"In Osirion there are two kinds of farmers. There are free farmers, who farm and sell the products of their farm and get money they use to buy things they need, and they can farm more or less acreage as they see fit - more acreage is more work but means more pay - and they can choose which crops they want to farm, considering how well they'll grow and how we'll they'll weather a drought year if there is one.

And there are serfs, who do not own the land they farm, and the products of their labor are confiscated at the end of the year, and they don't gain much from having grown more, and as a result they grow far, far less food, we've studied it, because when you're a slave you just don't pour your whole heart and soul into growing as much food as possible, you just don't -"

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"We have lots of things you don't have. Maybe we have better people."

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"The things you were confused about," he says to the paladins. "The lack of days off?"

       "That was one of them, yes. They don't - have holy days - but -"

"But people highly value time off and given the ability to set their own schedule they will take vacations and take weekends and have their cousin cover their shop sometimes, even in places where they don't worship the gods or in Osirion where Abadar does not prefer us to celebrate his holy days by not working. They're - rich, in the sense that they can produce lots of things. They're desperately poor in the sense that they have very few of the things people value. They have lots of stuff but no wealth..."

        "Not much - decoration," says one of the paladins, slowly. "The homes all looked kind of -"

"No wealth. Nothing they actually want, just whatever something that isn't even a god assigned them."

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"I don't think it's an improvement to do what magic aliens tell you to do! Iomedae at least apparently used to be a normal person but most of them did not."

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"- most people absolutely don't do whatever a god tells them to do, if you've just met paladins you are getting a very unusual sample of people. Most people do what they want to do, what makes their lives and their family's lives and their friend's lives and their city and their country more a place they want to live."

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"Until they can't work and they starve. Ibyabek didn't - spontaneously arise out of hunter-gatherers, we had a visionary leader who saw what it was doing to his people to live like that, and now we live differently."

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"People.... don't usually starve when they can't work anymore. ...also - you don't, actually, look very well fed."

        "None of them did," says one of the paladins, quietly. 

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"Ibyabek's a hot planet. It doesn't behoove anyone to carry a lot of insulation."

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"I'm from Osirion."

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"Is Osirion close enough to the sun for it to look twice as big as this one does from here?"

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"I don't...think that's what determines temperature, though I haven't studied the movements of the planets. Is the food better or worse here in Lastwall?"

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"It's got more variety but people have been domesticating crops to grow on this planet for thousands of years, rather than about a century."

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"You've only been on the planet for a century?"

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"A little more. The system longer than that."

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"They did not give this context. How many planets are there? Can you trade with the other ones for food?"

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"Yes. Ships take a lot of power and time, you don't do it for bread, but strange fruit and things like that."

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"Have the other planets also put someone in charge of forcing everyone to do jobs and confiscating and distributing the output or is that just yours."

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"The others still use money."

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"What are the other ones like."

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"I've never been," Kyeo says. His voice has been getting croaky, off and on, and it's very hoarse now.

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"Do you know of anyone on them, so we could scry them?"

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"The ambassador has a son."

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He looks at the paladins because this should be handled with more delicacy than he has personally managed.

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"Wulaar Peng? Has a son?" Isavel says quietly.

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"His -" Cough. "His name is Sarham. He is presumably on a Kularan planet now."

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She nods. "Thank you."

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"I think - your government is making a very tragic mistake - but if the other planets are different I don't see how they wouldn't have noticed the mistake -"

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Kyeo isn't really paying attention any more.

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"Please tell me we are going to do something about the slave planet," he says to the paladins.

         "We - need to think. Obviously it will be - somewhere on the list of priorities. It's - far away, and confusing -"

"I am not very confused about it at all. And it'd fund other work, they're - they're doing some things we don't know how to do."

        "Yeah," she says.

"A planet - that's so many people."

        "We need to think."

"Of course. I'm sorry. I can stick around for a week."

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"Can I see," he says. "When you look for Sarham."

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"Of course," Isavel says. "A - friend of yours?"

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"We didn't know each other long. But I'd like to know how he's doing."

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"Of course. Tomorrow morning. I think - we can discuss some details elsewhere -" and she escorts Fazil out to do that.

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- oh, he'd meant to ask about Carissa's request. Maybe he will do that the next day.

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They have three people scry for Sarham the next morning; two succeed.

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Sarham is in a lecture hall, folding his glowing rectangle into its shiny case and stuffing it into his bag, elbowing his friends and vice-versa as they file out of the row. They emerge into rain, put up umbrellas, buy steaming drinks from a cart they pass, duck under an awning to drink them.

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The paladins crowd around to observe this. They look at Kyeo uncertainly.

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"Most of those people look Sohaibekan," Kyeo volunteers, when he notices this. "He might be on Outer Sohaibek."

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"They, uh, look less hungry," Isavel says hesitantly after a moment. 

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In the scry, after finishing his drink, Sarham taps a glowing rectangle against a bicycle leaning against a bollard. It lights up and he gets on it and zooms away without pedaling. They can see a couple of minutes of his riverfront route. There are skyscrapers reflected in the river. He has to go around a portrait artist and over a plywood detour to acommodate some construction.

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The paladins watch, wide-eyed.

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The scry is over before they get to see where he's going.

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"Should I get the cleric of Abadar," someone says. 

Isavel nods at them. 

 

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Kyeo doesn't say anything.

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There is a quiet conversation in the hallway. 

 

He comes in. 

 

"I owe you an apology," he says to Kyeo. "It is - good, and admirable, to look at the world and think - that children should not go to bed hungry because their mother is dead and their father is drunk, that if bakers had to give their bread to the poor then no one would starve. I - don't know if the people who tried that on your world were trying it sincerely, but - but if they were, then with the best of intentions they made a very terrible mistake, and one that won't get better until they reverse it. I think the people of Golarion will want to help if we possibly can."

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"Mm," Kyeo manages after a moment.

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"Are you - still confused?"

       "I don't think so," Isavel says. "I think - it seemed like something was off, but we didn't know what - we don't use money very much within the order -"

"Most churches don't within the church. It's important that if someone doesn't like what they're assigned to do they can go outside the organization within which there's no money."

       "Mmmhmm."

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"He showed me some pictures," Kyeo says, almost inaudible, like he's trying to talk while inhaling. "He wasn't supposed to. I figured later they were faked."

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"Sarham showed you pictures of - Outer Sohaibek?"

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"Of Kular, I think, but they were - like that."

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"They're - richer than us, so much richer than us - and maybe they're running their rich country cruelly -"

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Kyeo shakes himself a little. Glances at Fazil. "Carissa - the Chelish wizard who first found me, who the paladins arrested - wanted to know if she could make some sort of arrangement with your church to make magic items instead of sitting around doing nothing with anti-magic handcuffs on."

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He looks, bewildered, to the paladins for context. 

         "It's not easy to hold wizards," Isavel says. "We don't have an immediate timeframe but she inferred we couldn't do it for the rest of her life and we probably can't. We only have the one set of cuffs."

"What circle."

          "Third."

"- then just make her expend her spells, take her spellbook, maybe wake her up in the middle of the night every night, and she's not going to be able to figure out how to do anything interesting."

         "Third and she's twenty-three."

" - I guess she might eventually figure out how to do something interesting."

          "And we have a policy against 'wake her up in the middle of the night' type solutions where if someone misses their job for one day a disaster happens. And it might be a disaster, for Asmodeus to learn -" Gesture at the scrying pool. "Might not be. They're very far away. But it might be, especially if we learn how he got here."

"...yeah. I...that's a tough one."

           "What would you do, if you'd grabbed her?"

"She wants to be allowed to work on magic items, and says she won't contact Asmodeus?"

          "Apparently."

"We'd marry her off. Find a wizard who can contain her appropriately, probably one capable of geas, review a wording that's satisfactory to everybody, marry her to him on the condition that we can have a representative drop by every week and watch him re-cast it."

          "...wow." Isavel says. "I - I recognize that to an Osirian perspective that sounds different, but -"

"You'd want to screen for a decent man. But I'd expect if we found a decent man she'd choose it over - sitting here in the dungeon waiting for you to need the cuffs and, what, petrify her?"

         "Probably, yes."

"This would let her live an ordinary life."

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"I can pass that on. What is a geas?"

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"It is a spell that can constrain a person's actions. Make them unable to do something prohibited, or obliged to do something in particular. Simple ones last forever, and she is under one of those, to not speak to agents of Asmodeus, but complex ones last a shorter time. We don't have the resources to have someone reliably on hand to cast it every week."

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"We don't have the resources to do that either. But there are plenty of wizards who'd want a wizard wife, and then it's not your state's resources."

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"How would you find someone?"

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" - ask my best friend, and then if he doesn't think it'd be a good idea ask him which of his friends he thinks would be suited."

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Kyeo nods. "I can tell her."

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He nods. 

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Isavel is making a face. "We'd want to meet the - prospective husband."

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" - of course."

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"...why?"

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" - because it is our responsibility not to transfer our prisoner into a situation where she is going to be abused, and a woman handed to a foreign man who has formal license to geas her and prevent her from having unsupervised contact with the outside world is often going to be abused."

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"Why would he need to prevent her from having unsupervised contact with the outside world, she's already geased not to talk to Asmodeans -"

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"You probably want a wording you're very sure doesn't have loopholes or ways a clever person can cause a message to eventually reach Asmodean ears, but - she should definitely have friends, Osirian marriages don't frown on having friends."

        "My understanding is that Osirian women are supposed to never be alone with a man," Isavel says.

"This permits many friendships, including with men."

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"I'm not sure she'll like that but I will still mention the option, I suppose."

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"We haven't been avoiding having her alone with men."

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"Really? Uh, not to be crude, but, in expectation if you allow that a lot someone will rape her."

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"With a guard within earshot, having informed her she can call them, and with people who we trust and who Iomedae chose."

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"...in the fashion in which you prefer to avoid solutions like 'wake her up in the middle of the night' we prefer to avoid solutions like "she could yell for help."

 

           Isavel frowns, considering that.

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...Kyeo would actually sooner not get into the reasons this never occurred to him as something he might do when left alone with Carissa, so he does not say anything about that.

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He seems to not prefer to argue the point further either. 

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"All right. I think we need to pray and then we might want to discuss Ibyabek more once we've heard from Iomedae. We'll let you know if we are interested enough in the ...marriage ...option to consider the confidentiality reconsiderations it'd require. - thank you for coming out here. I think it was clarifying."

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"I'm glad we could arrange it."

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Kyeo will... go visit Carissa now, shall he.

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She is in the same place as usual.

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"Hello. Ah, I asked the Abadaran cleric and his idea was to matchmake you with someone who'd like a wizard wife and can agree to geas you on a weekly basis to get one."

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" - well. Were the paladins in favor of that?"

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"They wanted to talk to the prospective husband first. The cleric has a friend to ask in mind if you want to try this."

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"Where is the cleric from."

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"He said Osirion."

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"Also he thinks it's a bad idea to let you have male visitors alone, but they did not immediately change any policies when he said that."

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"That follows from the 'Osirian', if you think women aren't worth anything once someone's fucked them you'd better lock them up to make sure no one does until they've paid their appropriate dues. 

I'm probably not eligible. Having, you know, been alone with many men."

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"...I can tell him that if you want but it did sort of come up in conversation that the paladins have not been Osirian about it."

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She looks like she has no idea how to feel about that.

 

 

 

 

 

"It is better than being dead and not even going to Hell," she says, after a while, unsteadily.

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He nods. "Was there somebody in Cheliax you wanted to marry?"

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"No!"

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"Is there something the paladins should - check for -"

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"I am not sure I know what you mean."

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"To make sure he's agreeable? I don't know what you're looking for. On Ibyabek your brothers would be picking through their friends for you, most likely."

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"Yes, because Ibyabek is like Osirion in that women don't get to do anything and belong to whoever's picked out for them and -

 

 

- I guess if it's worse than being dead I can kill myself -"

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"They... might prevent that? Since possibly you would go to Hell."

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Nod. 

 


"I hate them," she says, very quietly.

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"Osirians?"

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"I've barely met any. I guess so. I -"

 

Deep breaths.

 

Even more quietly: "thank you for telling me."

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"You're welcome."

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"Did you figure out what they were confused about?"

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"Yeah."

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"What was it."

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"I'm not sure how to explain."

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Nod.

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"It sounds silly if I try. They were expecting Ibyabekans to decorate their houses more. They think people ought to be fatter. The Abadaran cleric kept saying we were all slaves and I don't think that's true, but..." Shrug.

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"Does it make more sense than that to you and it's just hard to explain or is it that confusing all the way through?"

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"I don't actually know what's wrong, the cleric was sort of attempting to explain but it mostly involved yelling at me. But then - they scried another planet, and -" Shrug.

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"...and?"

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"They kept saying 'richer', and I still don't know what that means when Ibyabek doesn't use money, but it did look different."

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"I mean, you can have - more food, more variety of food, nicer clothes, less work to do, better carriages, nicer houses..."

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"Apparently you can, but - I don't know why - someone still has to make all those things - the cleric was saying that he expected people on Ibyabek would be bad at their jobs but I don't think we are!"

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"You get assigned your jobs, right? Maybe your tracking isn't very good and lots of the assignments aren't actually the thing you'd be best at?"

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"I suppose I can't rule it out but it's really not obvious, and the work gets done, and I can't figure out why making everyone require money to live and then handing it out for work and not otherwise making sure the work was done would work better!"

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" - do you want to mostly talk about how they are stupid and horrible, because they are, or do you want to try to figure it out because it might be important?"

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"It's not really important. I'm all the way over here and wouldn't know what to do if I weren't.

I wish -"

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"We got a new ambassador once, and he brought his son, and I was assigned to show him around. And he stole something from his mother that would let him show me things from - the interplanetary information network, it's called the skylace. He showed me some pictures before we got caught.

I thought they were fake."

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"His planet is - greater?"

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"They scried him. He's on Outer Sohaibek. The pictures were from Kular, probably, which has six planets. It's the same, or looked it - busy and frivolous and -"

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"- and you'd get in trouble, right, if you thought that other planets were better places to live? So you - didn't think of it?"

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"They can't read minds, but." Shrug.

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"I would be pretty upset if it turned out Cheliax was worse than other places."

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"I suppose the retired paladins will have things to say about that if you ask."

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"We talked about it a bit. They said that Cheliax is richer because Hell gives it things, which I knew, that's not an argument against serving Hell. They didn't claim that Lastwall's a nicer place to live or anything."

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"Outer Sohaibek looks like it is though." He shrugs. "Maybe they have a lot of - homeless people somewhere and the scry was only following Sarham so it didn't see them, but..."

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"My father is a merchant. And he's pretty good at it, so he's rich. And some people try their hand at merchanting but they don't have a good sense for when prices will rise and fall and which seacaptains are competent and which will make mistakes and which will try to scam you. And they don't do very well, and lose money, and eventually they learn or they quit and do something else, I suppose. And it seems like maybe if there's nothing to tell them they're not very good at it they'll - go on being not very good at it. I guess."

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"- but that thing can be a person and not the threat of ruin! Also there's nothing to scam about with no money."

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"I don't think it can be a person, what, is there someone whose job it is to calculate how well all of the merchants would have done if they used money, and tell them, because if you've got lots of people doing jobs like that instead of working then no wonder you're poor. Also I think there's plenty to scam about with no money, you can siphon off the goods, or just not work very hard, or not handle stuff carefully so it arrives broken..."

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"They don't calculate how much people would have made with money but it's simple to tell if things arrive where they're going."

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"That's not what makes the difference between a good and a bad merchant, though, it's picking what to ship, and when, so that there's not a surplus in the port you're sending it to, and making sure you don't spend much time delayed in port anywhere because you have arrangements all the places you'll be passing through, and funding speculative ventures sometimes when they look good but not so many of them you won't stay afloat unless one pans out, and then unexpected things happen like terrible storms or a charybdis in the strait or whatever and a good captain will still lose the ship sometimes but not nearly as often, which adds up, if you're funding ten of them..."

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"I think our ships are better. And our communication technology; you could just call someone in the right city and have more than twenty-five words to talk about what's there."

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"I guess maybe eventually all the problems become trivial and you'd have to be an idiot to mess up at shipping."

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"Yeah. So I don't know what's - wrong."

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Shrug.

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"I bet Sarham could explain it. But he's in another galaxy and I could only even maybe talk to him through relays who're trying to repeat all the noises we make. Also this might make him think he was crazy."

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"You, uh, make all your women stay home and be married and raise babies, right. It might just be that. If other countries let everyone do things and you only let half of them."

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"I am pretty sure they don't have another way to get babies on other planets. Also that definitely can't be what the Osirians are complaining about."

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"It cannot be what the Osirians are complaining about but - in Cheliax women do have babies, just, daycares raise the babies so the women can go on doing things with their lives."

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"I think that's been tried on Ibyabek but I don't remember why it wasn't more widely adopted."

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"Usually men don't want to let women work because if they have another way to support themselves they won't be as cooperative about being given a husband and obliged to have sex with him."

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"That wouldn't be the reason, though, since everyone is supported already."

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"Are women in fact allowed to say they don't want to get married and will instead contribute to the People by directing shipping."

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"I think not everyone gets married but I wouldn't expect to see a woman directing shipping."

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"Then even if they're technically not being threatened with starvation I bet the general state obtains where women don't have good alternatives to getting married and the people in power, who are men, do not want them to have good alternatives to getting married. Except prostitution, that is the traditional allowed alternative because it also involves being sexually available to men...I admittedly don't know how that one would work without money, maybe you haven't got it."

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"I'm not actually sure how it works but there's the Morale Corps. They get married eventually though."

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"The ...morale corps?"

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"Girls who - I don't actually know, I've seen them a few times but they left me alone, but it sounded like what you were saying."

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Nod. "Anyway, you're right that that can't be what the Osirians object to."

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"Yeah. Thus wishing Sarham could explain. I think he - wanted to."

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"But you'd be in trouble if you knew?"

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"The access to the skylace was detected pretty quickly. There wasn't time."

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"I'm sorry."

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"He looked happy, in the scry."

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Her expression changes, slightly, and looks vaguely knowing. "Well, that's good."

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"Yeah."

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"I wish Good people could ever explain themselves."

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"They seem bad at it."

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"KInd of want to ask the Osirian cleric to explain himself but I bet he won't talk to me. Maybe if enough other people were also in the room."

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"Do you want me to ask?"

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"Sure. If you don't mind. ...I hope they don't decide to listen to him about my guests. Guess it doesn't matter for very long."

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"He seemed worried you'd get hurt."

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"They're going to kill me!"

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"I can't explain it, I'm just relaying."

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"I don't see how it'd stop them hurting me if they wanted to to have more of them in the room anyway!"

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"It would... be crowded? I don't know!"

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"Good." Miserably.

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Shrug.

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"It is a reasonable strategic priority for them not to let me get pregnant since I think that'd mean they lost Good points for killing me but aside from that absolutely none of it makes any sense."

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"They're only allowed to kill you if you aren't pregnant?"

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"Yes. I'd heard that years ago and I asked my elderly man about it indirectly and he mostly confirmed it.

It's such a stupid ideology."

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Kyeo is pretty sure he should not try to get her pregnant, not least because he is reasonably sure he cannot physically accomplish this, but: "That's very weird!"

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"I hate them." She doesn't actually sound angry though, just very small, and very scared, and very tired.

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"I can go ask - who am I asking what, again -"

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"Uh. The cleric whether he'll come here if other people do too."

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"And I'm telling them that - marrying his friend is probably better than dying and not going to Hell, or do you just want to talk to him about his friend first?"

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"Please don't tell him that, just tell him I'm maybe interested. - if I say 'well it's better than dying' then I get the population of men who specifically want to marry someone who thinks that, if I pretend I just think it's a good idea then I maybe have a shot at the population of men who don't specifically prefer the thing where I am a prisoner. More than all Osirian women are."

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"Okay. I can tell him you're maybe interested and want to talk."

And Kyeo knocks to get out and goes looking, with some trepidation, for Fazil.

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He is talking with the paladins.

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Kyeo will wait. (And eavesdrop, if it counts when he's not hiding.)

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"- in Aktun more than half of people work for pay at least ten hours a week," he is saying. "About ten percent work more than eighty - adjust that, obviously, for them not needing to sleep, so eighty is still only about half of your time..."

            "The people who don't work for pay, what are they doing?"

"Hobbies, I think mostly. Writing, reading, drawing, dancing, drinking, competitive sports - those pay but only at the highest levels - if you had that on the Material plane I think you'd see something more like what you see from retired wizards. Studies of areas of interest, exploration, time spent with children and parents..."

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Kyeo doesn't know what Aktun is. Maybe it's like Hell, only not on fire.

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"Kyeo," Isavel says. "Can we help you?"

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"Carissa might be interested. And would like to talk to Fazil - with company if necessary."

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"It is necessary," he says immediately. 

        "Kyeo, do you want to go with him?" says Isavel.

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"All right."

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"Is that enough or does it specifically need to be another woman."

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"It doesn't specifically need to be another woman but it should probably be someone who'd - feel comfortable reporting to you if something bothered them?"

      

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"I can come too," says Isavel. 

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"Thank you."

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They have so many rules about how to let other random people enforce their rules! It's weird! They're not even saying "Kyeo, it's illegal for you to not report it if he tries to rape her", they just want people in the room and aren't assigning them any tasks! It's bizarre, is what it is. He doesn't say this.

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Carissa looks different when they get back to the room; she has changed her posture slightly and is looking - younger, somehow, and less defiant. "Thank you for coming," she says, quietly.

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"Of course. You wanted to talk about - whether we could arrange to have you married, instead of remaining in Lastwall's custody?"

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"They're very kind here and I'm learning a lot but I am worried that it's too much of an imposition for them to have me indefinitely, and - that this whole thing with Kyeo's world might provoke some strife somewhere and then they'll need their magic handcuffs..."

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"We would try, if that happened, to figure something out other than executing or petrifying you," says Isavel. "But I do think it's probably a good idea to think about what that might look like in advance."

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Nod. "Thank you. I know it's expensive to hold a wizard but I was thinking I can make magic items and someone could arrange something so that I could earn my keep."

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"It's not impossible but it requires - pretty intensive supervision from someone who is themself an experienced wizard, to know whether you're studying magic that'd let you escape, and whether you're burning materials by accident at a suspicious rate, and whether you're siphoning any off for other projects and saying you got into an accident -"

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" - you could just kill me if I ever made a mistake that burned materials. I don't make mistakes."

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"- you are pretty new at being a wizard! You're a very impressive one but I bet there are all kinds of mistakes you haven't made yet and will eventually, and sometimes people just get unlucky! Anyway, even in Osirion, intensive supervision from a wizard who we'd trust with a secret like this and who can also - make sure you get to learn things and not just make the same artifact every day for the rest of your life -"

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"I wouldn't mind that, sir."

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" - you wouldn't mind doing the same item every day for the next fifty years?"

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"I find it very relaxing to make items I already know how to make. It's like how some people find knitting relaxing when they know the pattern."

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" - okay. Anyway, I am not sure that this is a service you can buy, because - we couldn't have lots of handoffs, we'd need the wizard to commit for the long run and be willing to work with the government to ensure it was still working, and there'd be up-front materials costs that existing loan programs aren't a good fit for. And so if you were Osirian I think what a court would do is find you a wizard husband who was willing to do all those things. There wouldn't be a lot of selection but I do think there'd be a way to make it work."

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"What would you do if I were a man?"

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"...probably turn you into a statue. I'd - ask around, first, obviously, maybe someone would think of a solution I'm not thinking of."

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This is in some obscure way comforting even though it's bad news.

 

 

"What's wrong with Ibyabek?"

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"I only have Kyeo's account and the things the paladins noticed seemed odd, but I think they tried to abolish money while not really understanding all the things money does, and then they tried to replace all the things that they understood money to do with other, costlier, systems, and as a result even though they have fabulous manufacturing techniques the likes of which we haven't dreamed of, people actually have a harder time having nice lives than they do even in Golarion which is much poorer."

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"I was thinking Sarham could probably explain it," says Kyeo, "only I don't know how to talk to him - or anyone - without them just thinking they've gone crazy."

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"We would be involving more people but we could get a Gate... what did Sarham do that made you think he could explain it?"

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"I think he wanted to. Maybe he wouldn't be any good at it either, but I think he wanted to, and he's from the right galaxy, he's been to Ibyabek and to - richer - planets."

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He nods. "I think that would probably help a lot with explaining it, because Golarion people are missing so many levels of what is going on ...do people on Ibyabek know that on other planets people have more to eat and don't work nearly as much?"

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"I have - heard things that might have taken that information as an influence."

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Nod. 

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"I thought it might be - that money is how merchants know that they're making mistakes. But Kyeo says that in the future it's not very hard being a merchant, you can just call the other cities, and your ships aren't lost at sea."

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"- many specific problems can be solved while money continues to have a valuable role in focusing attention and resources on the problems that are not yet solved and which you can get rich by solving."

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"I can see that there is something going on but I don't understand where it is!"

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"I think it is several things. One of them is that people do better work when they choose for themselves what work to do. One of them is that people have happier lives if they get to decide where to live and what things to buy, even if those choices are very constrained, because it is good for people to get to choose things, and it can motivate them to be inventive and find solutions no one thought of. One of them is that people take risks and invent new things because they expect to get rich, and if they won't get rich no matter what they do they won't take risks."

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"Risks?"

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"Well, say, I have an adventuring party, we go around the world risking our lives fighting demons and dinosaurs and so on, we are doing this because if we survive we will be very rich, and we want to be very rich, and if we couldn't be rich no matter what we'd have picked safer jobs."

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"- dinosaurs?"

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"...I mean, when we're in the area, we don't specifically trophy hunt or anything."

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"Uh, dinosaurs are a sort of animal that's extinct on Earth, that's all."

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"Huh. There are lots of kinds on Golarion and humans have mostly hunted the big ones to death in inhabited areas but there's still small ones."

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"The Earth ones have been extinct for millions of years. - but this is probably not important."

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"Probably not. Anyway, adventurers who make fifth circle can Teleport and Plane Shift and Break Enchantment and Raise Dead and Permanancy and those are very very economically valuable so people take lots of risks to make fifth circle. If they weren't allowed to get rich they mostly would just stay home."

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"Being a soldier is dangerous and Ibyabek has an excellent military force."

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"Does it? How would you know?"

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"I was in it! Whatever your complaints about the state of my knowledge about paper mills I went through training and served on a ship. We have to police a three dimensional border against smugglers and spies from a planetful of hostile people right in our own system, and we do it."

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"And how do you measure being good at it, in volume of smuggled goods impounded? Number of spies arrested? Do you have a comparison?"

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"If our army weren't good Outer Sohaibek could have conquered us during one of the times we were more openly at daggers drawn!"

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"Is that an objective of theirs? Are offensive and defensive wars about equally difficult to fight? Is that about your army or more about- in Golarion it often matters almost as much which side has a single powerful wizard, I don't know if there's anything analogous..."

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"- we do have melters, but..."

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"Melters?"

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"There used to be three settled planets in the system, but Old Sohaibek was melted in the original war."

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"Gods."

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Kyeo is not sure how to respond to that.

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He's not looking at Kyeo. He's kind of looking at Isavel, who looks very neutral. "Are they working something out?" he asks.

           "I think there's something ready. For if Asmodeus finds out, or for if, say, Lamashtu does and then we have to tell Asmodeus."

He nods.

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"What is it that's ready?"

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"An agreement to make sure none of those can be made or used here," Isavel says. "Among all the gods who want the world to keep existing, which is most of them."

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"It's only most of them?"

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"There are a lot of gods and some of them have very unpredictable or complicated interests. But it's most of them."

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"Well, I'm... glad there is a plan not to let any of the remainder get a melter."

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"Sorry for getting distracted," he says to Kyeo. "I don't know if that line of discussion was productive anyway, though..."

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"I thought we were here to talk about whether Carissa's getting married."

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"Mmm. Is that what you want?" he asks Carissa. 

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"Honestly sir I want to make magic items for a living and not tell Asmodeus anything and not be a prisoner anymore. But I - understand that you aren't going to let me do that.

I'm - not sure I'm eligible to get married, by Osirian standards."

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"Anyone is eligible to get married if they can find someone who wants to marry them and it's a complicated case but you're a very talented woman, and I think there are some people who'd see that as a positive thing worth overlooking other things."

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"Do they say in other places that being quick runs in the blood or do they only say that in Cheliax, sir."

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"That is also how we understand it in Osirion. So, see, you have a lot going for you. How old are you."

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"Twenty-three."

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"I will look into it for you."

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"Thank you, sir."

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"What's your friend like?" Kyeo wonders.

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"We've been travelling together for eight years. He's a conjuration specialist and plans on retiring as soon as he hits fifth circle and selling teleports and spending almost all of his time at home doing whatever's interesting. He's lawful neutral and doesn't particularly hold by any gods and goes to holidays at the temple to Nethys mostly to see Clepati show off. He's not Good, which I thought might be - a plus, considering - but I have never known him to treat anyone unkindly. I think he does want a wife he can take to fancy parties but you can take mysterious foreign wives to fancy parties. He is not married. He would probably eventually want a second wife, unless you two fall in love or something."

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"Is that very common in Osirion? It's not very common in Cheliax."

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"...I think Cheliax is unusually awful that way. But - it's not something to count on, anywhere, you can count on decency and a good income and good insurance and you should not get into any marriages where if that's all you had you'd regret it."

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"Are second wives a normal thing - Ibyabek doesn't do that -"

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"Osirion does. I think they are generally inadvisable but there are some situations where they are the least bad option, and many of the problems are mitigated if you're very very rich."

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Kyeo is growing to really dislike the word 'rich'.

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"Carissa, do you want us to make rules that you can't have one guest at a time?"

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"I think you can trust your people not to hurt me, ma'am, and I like having Kyeo over."

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"I am very sure of our people, I just wanted to check what'd make you feel comfortable."

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"Being able to be useful would make me feel more comfortable."

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"We're - working on it. We'll ask some other people for ideas, too. Ultimately, if you don't want to betray us to Asmodeus, we want to let you live a free life. You could get an Atonement."

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She nods. 

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"And, uh, I'm not going to -" he waves a hand vaguely, glancing at Fazil.

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"He's gay. .... I don't know if Osirion has the concept."

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He looks perplexed, so maybe not.

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"A perpetual bachelor," offers Isavel, half-smiling. "Carissa, I recognize this is a really difficult situation, but - we want you to be safe and we want you to be happy and if you want anything to change you can talk to the guards about it, all right?"

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"Thank you, ma'am. I'm very comfortable aside from the wanting to be of use."

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"- I'm what?"

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"....exclusively attracted to men? They have people like that even in Osirion, I just don't know if they bother having a word for it."

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"I went to the hospital about that and they released me with a clean bill of health!"

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"Did you prefer....not to be attracted to men?"

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"Before all this nonsense happened to me I'd intended on getting married like a normal person, and not - being philosophically troubled at people, yes..."

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"...can the hospital only make you not attracted to men and it can't make you attracted to women because I don't see why that would help with getting married like a normal person."

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"...I'm reliably informed that one is supposed to get to like one's wife better over time."

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" - I don't think that works."

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"- you can make it work but ideally you do a lot of work on matching up ahead, find a girl who isn't any more interested than you in being married, so she won't be disappointed, and then you can each have people on the side."

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"Osirion does have the concept?"

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"I don't know that we have a concept specific to men, both married and unmarried, who don't desire women in some persistent way, but men who aren't attracted to their wives is a - thing that comes up in marital counseling, and if you know in advance you can head off the problem by finding a girl who'd prefer a husband who hardly touches her."

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"People on the side?"

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"I mean, the husband can have - I don't know the Taldane - a man who is a lover, and the wife can have a woman who is a lover."

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" - I thought Osirians cared a lot about fidelity?"

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"...yes?"

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"People have affairs on Ibyabek, it's a vice but they do it, but they do not - gayly - have affairs."

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"I guess if you medicate them about it they sure wouldn't!"

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"I have heard it's contagious."

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"What?"

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"I don't really know what might be helpful to say here."

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Carissa knows what she'd say here but she is pretending to be meek and suitable for Osirian slavery marriage.

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"Some people will never be very interested in men no matter how much their surrounding society encourages it but for some it does depend, I think," Isavel says. "That said if your society strongly discouraged it and you turned up with it anyway then I don't think yours is likely to be very much the kind that goes away when you leave the army and there are girls around."

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"...well."

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"...maybe we can explain to Ibyabek that actually lots of people demonstrate nobility of character and heroism and great integrity while also being gay?" she suggests, but not very hopefully. 

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"People can also demonstrate nobility of character and so on while they have the flu, it's not really going to affect matters."

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"The flu...negatively affects them."

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"I do not feel enormously benefited by my being, apparently, gay."

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"I think I would find it annoying to be exclusively attracted to women because then you couldn't enjoy intimacy until you were married."

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"I would find it annoying to be exclusively attracted to men because then you'd be risking getting pregnant every time you wanted to hook up with someone," Carissa says mostly because she's curious whether this is an acceptably Osirian opinion to have.

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He seems totally undisturbed by it. "I guess it would also be inconvenient to be exclusively attracted to men because it'd complicate finding a wife but the attraction to men isn't the problem there, it's the lack of attraction to women, which sounds like the part your hospital doesn't have a fix for..."

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"If they did they omitted it. It could be risky in some way, perhaps, and they would have tried it if I'd gotten married and then gone back a few years later."

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"I guess." He looks very dubious. "Maybe Osirion would want the medicine as a criminal penalty for rapists? Assuming it to work on both attraction to men and attraction to women?"

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"It's not a medicinal treatment." The world is ending again, he HATES it when the world is ending, he is TRYING to have a CONVERSATION.

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"Oh? What kind of treatment is it?"

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"That's -" he croaks. He tries to cough and can't quite inhale enough.

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Isavel reaches out and touches him and does - something magic, it's not clear quite what, it feels like being abruptly soaked in a soothing sensation.

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"- thank you?"

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"I'm - sorry if it's not something you want to explain -"

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"I prefer not to dwell on it."

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"I am not sure this is on topic anyway. - you were explaining to Carissa the Osirian conception of fidelity -"

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"Was I - you should not have sex with a man not your husband, or give people the impression you have or are trying to arrange to."

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"And women are fine since they're not really people anyway?"

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"...women are fine but not for that reason."

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"What is the reason?"

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" - well, it's fine for two women to be friends, right? And - at what point would you say it stops being fine?"

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"You also said earlier that it was possible for women to be friends with men under your system, which seems true if they're willing to have witnesses - can women only be friends up to the point where they're not prepared to carry on any farther in the street?"

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"The reason for the witnesses is to avoid a situation where it might be rumored they had sex, not to constrain their behavior to whatever they're comfortable with the witnesses seeing."

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"I do not know how two women or for that matter men normally have sex but I assume rumors can spread regardless."

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"I...don't think that a rumor that two women had sex would matter. It certainly would not call into question the paternity of any children."

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"Oh! I suppose it wouldn't. Is that the reason people gayly have affairs in Osirion then?"

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" - yes."

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"- I suppose there isn't birth control. Or, uh, magic birth control."

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"Wizards can make sure they don't get pregnant if they don't want to but other people can't."

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"There are herbs that help a married couple have - three, not eight, if that's what they want, but there's nothing that I would recommend to a woman who really didn't want to have a baby."

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"Cheliax has abortion but they won't because it's Evil."

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"Oh. As far as I know ours works and isn't just a lot of abortions, though mostly it's handed out to people with health conditions incompatible with pregnancy. And the Morale Corps probably."

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Carissa doesn't want to die so she's not going to have any opinions about whether this is a just way to run a society.

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"Do you know how it's done?" says Isavel.

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"I don't, I'm sorry."

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"It's all right. Maybe once we make contact. Though - I think we want to do more research first."

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"Of course."

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"Are there more questions - I feel like we're off topic but I don't know what the topic was -"

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"I just wanted to hear about your friend and also I was curious what was bothering you about Ibyabek."

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"Well, I'm a cleric of Abadar, it was probably going to make me uneasy even if it was ...fine. But it's not."

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"Thank you for answering my questions."

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"Of course. I hope we can work something out for you."

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Maybe it is time to leave now?

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He seems to think so. They head out.

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Kyeo has a lot to think about but mostly is not succeeding at thinking about any of it and is instead thinking about Sarham magically teleporting here somehow and hugging him and having excellent explanations for everything, which is stupid.

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"We can talk more tomorrow," Isavel says, and then they leave him alone in his rooms.

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Kyeo eventually decides to take a nap.

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His nap causes him to miss lunch and a tray is brought. Otherwise no one bothers him.

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He eats lunch. He goes to dinner, when it's time for dinner.

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Today's topic of gossip is Osirion, since there's a cleric here to swap stories with. Osirion really is full of enormous stone pyramids where the ancient pharaohs are buried; the less well-defended ones have been looted but the better-defended ones are still intact; there is still a pharaoh today, the god-king Khemet the Third, an aspect of Abadar; Fazil says it's kind of complicated but Khemet is to Abadar as the human Iomedae is to the god Iomedae, sort of. He was not born like that and got transformed into it when his grandfather died. The pharaoh's palace and most of the important government buildings in Sothis are in the hollowed out carapace of the giant beetle Ulunat, one of the spawn of Rovagug, which some people say the first pharaoh of Osirion fought, seven thousand years ago. It reflects all magic and renders the inside unscryable and impossible to teleport in and out of.

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All of that is interesting in a pleasantly abstract sort of way.

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After dinner they hang around for a while, telling stories of past adventures.

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Kyeo has a routine, of sorts, and keeps to it. Visits Carissa, goes on walks, turns up to swordfighting lessons, mostly avoids Fazil.

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Fazil is busy contributing to speculative plans to help in Ibyabek and scrying for contacts in Outer Sohaibek though they're going to be very cautious about actually contacting people, this time, until they're sure they're not missing an important element of the situation. He is also trying to arrange for confidentiality agreements to be signed such that Mahdi can be told about things. The paladins are very understandably paranoid. They also have reservations about this proposed solution to the wizard; so does he, really, but he also has reservations about the backup plan of leaving her chained up underground until they need the handcuffs and killing her then. 

 

His terse Sending to Mahdi mostly said he should come to Lastwall and maybe meet a girl, long story, very confidential, very important, and even though it's going to be harder to convince the paladins to bring them in too he's somewhat relieved when Mahdi teleports in with Hagan and also Belmarniss.

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"Okay what is going on."

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"I still can't tell you, I need you to agree to the confidentiality agreement from the paladins and I need to convince them that sometimes chaotic people follow those too - it's good to see you guys -"

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"It's nice to see you too. Probably. I will know for sure after I have seen the confidentiality agreement."

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"They are not making an excessively big fuss. The fuss is appropriately sized."


He hauls out the confidentiality agreement, which forbids them from discussing with anyone including the gods anything they learn in Lastwall or anything they learn downstream of that, for example by exploring the site where Lastwall found it or talking to people they learned about here, without the whole leadership of Lastwall agreeing in writing, or (should they be unavailable) Iomedae's personal approval, communicated through a manifestation or her herald. They are also forbidden from implying that they have interesting information they can't share, writing it down in an insecure fashion, doing things that are likely as a consequence to draw peoples' attention to it, etcetera, and from being around anyone likely to be reading their minds. And from going to Hell.

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"So including the gods but not including specifically Iomedae? I suppose I'd been meaning to getting around to trying to talk to my future conspecifics anyway."

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"Iomedae already knows and actually so does Abadar, She arranged something with Him when they wanted to bring me in."

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"Fuss is appropriately sized and you don't expect us to regret this awfully or anything?" And she signs at his nod.

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"A human landed here three weeks ago from another world. With just humans, and no magic, or nothing they call that but they've got - ships that travel between stars, so they've gone to lots of planets. It was an accident on one of those ships that dropped him on the Worldwound, and they don't really know how."

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"Just humans, like...no other sapients? No other creatures at all? Do they have outsiders in their afterlives?"

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"They do not think they have afterlives."

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"How many humans are we talking about?"

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"Billions. Our information source is a bit unreliable because he is from an awful planet where everyone is - enslaved by the government for ideological reasons - but definitely billions."

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"There's an entire planet where everyone is enslaved by the government for ideological reasons and Asmodeus or similar is nowhere to be seen?"

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"There is a lot we don't understand about the question but the slave planet understands there to be no gods and prohibits worshipping any and the ...flavor's all wrong...Ibyabek decided that people wouldn't be poor if there wasn't money, so they banned it, and the government picks a job for everyone and forces them to go do it all day, and then distributes food and supplies to everyone based on what it imagines them to require."

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"Okay, I realize you're extremely allergic to the concept, but did it in fact from a non-Abadaran perspective work at all -"

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"No! I was trying to be open minded about it but it's a nightmare. He's in their military and he looked - very thin, I thought at first he was sick, or had been until recently - and the ones we scried, too. I asked him how many days they work in twenty, and the answer is twenty. And I asked if there was anything that was newly available, or much improved, in the last five years, and he couldn't think of any - you would expect it to discourage innovation if no one gets any rewards for their labor and no one gets to choose their job, you'd expect there to be shortages of things if the demand for them changed over time, since the numbers the government was using wouldn't - and that's what it looks like. It's just awful. Tragic. - I want to fix it."

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"To be perfectly honest with you I don't know that I could name any non-magical innovations from the last five years, I don't keep up with the developments in weaving and glassblowing."

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"If there weren't any magical ones you'd be doing something else and you'd know about the innovations in the thing you were doing, at least. And I bet you could think of some - used to be you couldn't buy spider-silk in Sothis, now you can, that's a development in textiles for you..."

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"Yes, but spider-silk wasn't invented recently. Spiders have been around for much longer than five years. Still. Skinny humans without days off, we have some of those but we don't have billions and ours can hope for better luck next time as long as they don't stab anybody..."

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"And we're going to have less someday. They can make all kinds of things cheaply. You shouldn't have skinny humans with no days off if you have that."

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"So what are we doing, going to their planet to check things out?"

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"Not yet. We'll need a Gate, for one thing, and secondly I think the paladins want more of a plan of attack. No, you are most proximately here because of a secondary problem created by the world-hopping man. He - didn't land on us. He landed on Cheliax. And after they stole him out from them the paladins went back and stole the Chelish agent he'd landed on, and they think Asmodeus doesn't know, they think she hadn't told anyone yet. But now they have her, and she's a wizard and hard to hold, and they can't let her die and go to Hell and warn Asmodeus."

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"And they can't do soul bind because they're paladins?"

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"They haven't mentioned that particular constraint. They are planning to petrify her if they can't hold her anymore but they are shopping around for improvements on that. They ask what Osirion would do if she were our problem and I said, well, we'd get her married to someone who could contain her, so that is now an angle they're exploring."

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" - I am not sure that solution works when the problem is not that she is Osirian and has gotten in over her head but that she is Chelish and we are preventing her from killing herself. Have they tried convincing her to not be Asmodean."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I would be delighted if you figure out how to do it."

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"Sounds, uh, diverting, I've never actually met an Asmodean. Were you in fact planning to set her up with Mahdi -"

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"I mean, it's not an ideal solution, but it seems worth checking whether it's a workable one."

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"- I have to say that Chelish, hates us, currently a prisoner, doesn't check a lot of my boxes -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Third circle, and she's twenty-three."

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" - I didn't say no, just, you know, as a matchmaker I am not giving you high marks. - is she pretty."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes."

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"Does she want to do this."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wouldn't propose this if not! I think she's - obviously undecided right now - but she wanted me to have the impression she'd be suitable, if she ended up wanting to."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Congratulations, Mahdi, you compare favorably to the sweet touch of calcification."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I might. She is reserving judgment."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, Fazil doesn't have the arcane background to praise your intellect and I bet he didn't think to talk up how good you are in bed at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That would be getting several steps ahead of myself!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is there something else we can do with the girl?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not letting a wizard kill themself is a substantial constraint. You're going to need -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A geas, the kind that doesn't stick forever, every week. Or the extremely expensive handcuffs the paladins have her in."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm incredibly clumsy at enchantments."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It is one of your best qualities. But - yes, you'd have to pick up the spell."

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"Bleh," says Belmarniss, shivering a little. "And inconveniently suicide's Evil, you can't just wait till she doesn't ping a Detect and figure she won't be going to Hell..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. Probably they should just petrify her, honestly, but - twenty-three. Doesn't really feel like she got a chance. And she's trying to cooperate with figuring out something else. We should at least think about it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We got any idea how exactly those planets lack an afterlife? Banish her to one of those..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depends on whether it is possible to summon devils to those worlds. And on - whether she could reinvent Sending, but she probably can't, in a world without magic..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It'd be hard. Scry, too. - they're positive she's really only third -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They had a truth spell up. I guess we don't know if she's close to fourth."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hard to tell. She hasn't had any bright ideas of her own?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"She suggested we lock her up somewhere and let her pay her keep in magic items. Which works fine if we can find a wizard who wants to regularly geas and supervise her and front her materials costs, but -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"But you don't think you can find anyone who'd want to do that without an additional bribe?"

Permalink Mark Unread

" - I think that handing her off to someone as a prisoner will turn out worse than handing her off to someone as a wife. And I don't think I can find someone who's going to want to relocate to Lastwall or burn two Teleports a week on it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I admittedly do find this proposal less appealing than the other one."

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"There aren't, like, specialist monasteries, or anything?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not really. There are ones for men with abilities that require high security but - they don't prevent suicide."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You'd think it'd be worth the money to somebody, to park her somewhere making magic items and have a non-wizard guardian who hires out the casting."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am sure it'd be worth the money to somebody. I am very concerned it's worth the most money to someone willing to mistreat her."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not totally persuaded that a marriage is that different, on that front -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hey."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - not what I meant. I mean, it all depends on one specific person while that person is selected for being someone who wants a pretty Chelish prisoner who's supposed to spend all her time under enchantments, that's -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The prisoner part isn't a plus!"

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"I'm sure that as marriageable Osirian men go you are top percentile in all the Osirian-husband-ly virtues," Belmarniss assures Mahdi. "Buuuut she's Chelish. It's hurting us kind of a lot here that we can't openly advertise, I can think of places I'd try asking... church per se wouldn't want her?"

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"For us geas is sixth circle, not fourth, there's a lot fewer people who can cast it. And - they're going to be even more in favor of the marriage plan, on the grounds that it's also better for her. - I don't know that it is. But most people are certainly going to think so. It - sounds a lot better, right, married and studying magic with her husband, compared to in a cage making magic items every day..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"But the cage is the thing she asked for."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I know. I can ask whether the confidentiality agreement allows me to ask."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's possible she'll get along famously with Mahdi but if she doesn't - and I'm not actually sure how well we can tell under these conditions, she has fewer ways to pull levers here than a drow boy whose mom gambles! -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah." Sigh. "Same problem with trying to talk her out of Asmodeanism though that is also probably worth a shot."

Permalink Mark Unread

"With that you can at least verify it since Atonement won't go if she's bullshitting."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Let's meet the girl, we can spin our wheels about this just as well in her company and maybe it'll be helpful for her to see that we're - trying."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, all right."

 

 

And he takes them down into Lastwall's dungeons.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Knock knock, it's your matchmaker's entire adventuring party!"

Permalink Mark Unread

Carissa smiled at the first female guard she saw and asked if they'd mind doing her hair nicely, unsure whether this was the sort of thing you get Good points for or not; the guard agreed, so probably it is, and now she looks nice and hates everyone passionately. 

 

She turns when they walk in and - a smile is a hard sell, and looking right at them probably isn't being meek enough - very shy smile, looking at the floor. 

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 - sigh. "Carissa, this is Mahdi and Hagan and Belmarniss."

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"Nice to meet you."

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"We have been discussing whether there is anybody we can safely ask about you at all who would be able to keep you and would only want magic items out of you as opposed to needing the deal sweetened. Mahdi is known to us as a lovely person, at least if you like stereotypical Osirian wizards, and signed the nondisclosure on Fazil's say-so, which gives him a big leg up in the general field of competitors here, but it has occurred to us that if you can't stand his nose you might not tell us so we're trying to be very clever. - Geas is higher-circle for clerics but would the church of Nethys maybe go for it, they're often wizards too, they have that side hustle with the wine and could probably move some items too if they don't already -"

Permalink Mark Unread

It is sort of promisingly candid, though she's mostly trying to not have feelings, which won't help; the kinds of people who prefer to buy crying slaves are generally precisely the kind you don't want. 

"I'd like that, if it could be made to work," she says evenly. "I think I can definitely make it worth someone's spell slots.

The problem as I understand it is that I have no real means to object if someone, having made that deal, decides to make it any sweeter, so Fazil thought I should get ahead of that and sign myself over to one who will have thereby acquired an interest in keeping others off. And who I can pick."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you think you should do that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"I don't think we'll get anywhere if I lie to you," she lies. "This isn't what I wanted a month ago. I am still a little worried that we have wildly different concepts of how it'd work, somehow. But - I want the chance to be safe, and worth something, and it makes sense that the way to do that in your society is marriage, and I would be really happy, if there were a way to make it work."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You aren't in fact in Osirion at the moment. If some other society would do for the constraints at hand there's no special reason you have to go to Osirion. I'm not going to propose we sell you to my great-grandma, here, but by all means speak up if you... have vampire friends in Geb and want to go be a vampire, I don't immediately know that wouldn't work."

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"I haven't heard there's anything wrong with Osirion except the weather."

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"You can just have Endure Elements up all the time and then you don't even notice."

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"That's what I did at the Worldwound."

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"What were you doing at the Worldwound at third circle, they mostly recommend it to adventurers at fifth, sixth -"

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Mindreading for Her Majesty's Eleventh. "I'm a weapons enchanter. I got down every style I'd seen in Corentyn but that's mostly just the basics, I wanted to see - demonsbane arrows and vicious swords and plate armor with spell resistance and so on. And the Worldwound draws adventurers from all over. So I went and I didn't fight, just hung around and talked people into letting me look at their swords and armor." Does that make her sound like a slut. Probably. She hates Osirion. "I wanted to open my own shop, eventually." She wanted every soldier in Cheliax to have the best weapons and armor in the world, you can get materials free if you're making things for the crown.

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's pretty clever - you don't level that way, though, were you going to kit yourself up with something snazzy and then kill things or are you just super not into killing things?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can lay enchantments for spells I can't cast, if I ended up stuck at third circle it wasn't going to affect my business any." They're adventurers, probably it'd be offensive to say that Fireballing things seems like a waste of time when you can make flaming swords that'll work forever.

Permalink Mark Unread

"You can lay enchantments for spells you can't cast? How?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh good. "I think anyone can do it, just, most of them mess it up and burn their materials enough it's not worth it. I can't do divine spells, obviously. But I've done spell resistance, I've done withstanding, I got a good look at a sword of Ghost Touch once and I'm pretty sure I could do it even though that one's spell base is Etherealness. - I can do most magic item enchanting at double the normal pace but I can't reliably do double the normal pace and a spell I can't cast, unless the item's very simple."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - huh. Do you have anything on you - or did the paladins confiscate it - that you made?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not for myself, no. I was saving up for a headband."

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"There's a jeweler in Sothis who can do that. She's not even a wizard," remarks Belmarniss. "I considered going there when I wanted my anklet but she only works in jewelry, the guy I went with was a touch cheaper since he was only buying spellsilver and not gold and I can cast the spell myself, so I don't know much else."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - now that's weird, if she's not even a wizard what's she doing - I guess you could just memorize literally all of the physical correlates of the spell being in the right place but that sounds incredibly hard..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not a particular expert at magic item crafting myself, I have no idea whether that'd work."

Permalink Mark Unread

That's good because it'd be appealing to him to have someone on hand who can do it and bad because he won't have the context to appreciate when she's particularly clever. Or forgive understandable mistakes but she's already realized she's going to have to never make any. "What do you specialize in?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Teleportation. My retirement plan was to pick up Sothis to Quantium, or Sothis to Katheer, ten minutes of work every morning and it pays a couple hundred gold a day."

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It would be better if he worked more. She nods, smiles. "Nice work if you can get it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He keeps threatening to write a book once he retires."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I will obscure all of the details so no one can identify you. They will have no idea which of the many drow wizardsorcerers I am talking about."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I still bet in six months you'll get antsy and start daydreaming about how to provoke a dragon into attacking Sothis."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It will take six months just to convince my mother that I can leave her sight without returning to my dreadful adventuring ways."

Permalink Mark Unread

Snort. "The other option floating around is if you get an Atonement. Those don't work if you don't mean it, so it'd be pretty credible - probably it'd be advisable to keep an eye on you so it'd be apparent if you began corresponding with Asmodeans and they tried to convince you the other way again but I think maybe you wouldn't have to be pinned down so airtight. Of course there the sticking point is you have to mean it, whereas Mahdi is easily fooled if you smile politely."

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She's not tricking anyone; they're playing a game with her and one of the rules is that she has to smile the whole time. "The paladins mentioned - well, not directly - but I wouldn't really know where to start. I don't want to report anybody to Asmodeus, but I - don't think that's the thing that Good cares about, or more people would count as it."

Permalink Mark Unread

Belmarniss shrugs. "You don't have to come around on literally everything. I ping chaotic good and I would eat a baby if I went to a dinner party and somebody put it in front of me and I strongly suspect Pharasma's full of shit on her assessment of undead though I haven't yet done a research project to check. And I don't think you have to get all the way to Good, though if you're seriously considering trying the Atonement we should clear up with relevant parties how much they're holding out for in that department just to be sure."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I have never - eaten or otherwise disposed of - any babies, and I don't contest Pharasma's right to do as she sees fit with people. I wouldn't be stalling about an Atonement if I were clear on a specific opinion or action I am supposed to atone about, the problem isn't so much that I haven't got enough as that I have no idea what I'm supposed to do at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hm. I mean, you might just ping because of participating in the Chelish armed forces, though you really shouldn't if you're specifically doing it at the Worldwound - I assume someone has in fact checked you read Evil, or did they just kind of forget to do that -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- I didn't see them do it? Don't paladins just kind of detect evil all the time?"

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"At will, yeah."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So maybe you are actually lawful neutral except Cheliax does something to make a startling number of people count as evil even if they're just, like, I don't know, florists, so that probably got you and they probably checked but before anyone breaks out the incense and starts yelling 'Iomedae she's super sorry we promise' we should follow up on that... Drow also have an awful rate of people being evil but I think it's probably just all the murder, did you murder anybody?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No!

 

I don't think - it's Cheliax specifically doing something - I think evil is just kind of where you end up if you try to do things, and aren't specifically serving some good god who can give you lots of random rules to follow."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I do things and I'm not remotely religious unless I somehow count as worshipping my future self via time travel, which would be a very circular way to count as Good."

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She has absolutely no idea what the takeaway from that is.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Cheliax does have wildly more Evil people than other places, so it's clearly something Cheliax is doing, but it might be something like - Cheliax is an Evil country so serving it counts as Evil - you didn't sell your soul to a devil in school or anything, did you -"

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It's probably a very bad idea to say that she obviously would have if she met the right devil. "No."

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"I'm aiming for Axis," says Mahdi. "I've been, and it looks nice, and you can learn magic, start a business, go to the theatre, whatever seems interesting."

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Well of course the part they show tourists looks appealing, that doesn't mean that's what you get if you go there. Though probably they can use intelligent spellcasters same as Hell can. And someday Hell will probably destroy them but - "I expect I'd like Axis," she says carefully.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can you like, summarize your understanding of what the deal with good is in slightly more detail than 'people default evil if they do things'..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Uh, Good is this highly specific - vision of how people are supposed to behave and what things they're supposed to be tracking when they make decisions. If you mostly don't do things of significant import you won't run into this, but if you do things of significant import you're practically guaranteed to not be tracking one of the things you're supposed to be tracking, so you'll be Evil. I know some of the things - you're supposed to let your prisoners talk to someone every day, you're supposed to not tell people you're trying to convert them, necromancy is banned, abortion is banned because it counts as murder, which is banned, except killing me if they needed to wouldn't count, except if I were pregnant then it would... you're supposed to oblige people should they care to abuse your prisoners to do it in large groups - I haven't been able to figure out the reason for that one but my best guess was that it's about orchestrating uncertainty of paternity?

- but the larger contours don't seem intuitive to anyone who wasn't raised with them so you've got to devote a lot of your time to studying them and obeying them, and if you fail occasionally you'll be Neutral and if you're just doing things and not spending most of your time aiming at Good at all then you'll be Evil."

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"- in large groups - oh, no, Osirians do that because they think it's less likely someone will coordinate a rape or an assignation with a third party than that they'll do it on their own. While not raping people is fairly important that specific implementation is not actually a Good thing, Fazil just happens to be both Good and Osirian."

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Carissa doesn't see how not raping people can possibly be part of Good unless they're declaring it to not count if you've acquired property rights first by marrying them but observing this seems like it would not be good for her prospects of getting married. 

"Oh, I see," she says instead. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"Necromancy is Evil because preventing souls from proceeding to judgment and their afterlife is Evil. Spells like Malediction and Soul Bind and so on are also evil for the same reason. You might like Belmarniss think that this is not morally compelling and that's fair enough but I think the strongest argument for it is that no one has actually as-promised implemented contractually enforced terms of service because the undead isn't going to complain and as a result they often get stuck forever and having power over someone's soul, when they can't object, on the basis of an agreement they cannot revoke or alter or change their mind about, is at best a very sketchy situation and maybe a less troubling implementation would get a pass from Pharasma."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Resurrection also prevents souls from proceeding to judgment but that's not Evil, so there's precedent."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We can contest the specific points but I actually feel like trying to help Carissa out by giving her the correct set of rules and justifications for Good is not going to work? Since that is not actually how Good works?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, that's how Law works. Details about Pharasma's questionable sorting protocol in edge cases aside, the basic idea is that to be Good you have to prefer not to harm people. You are still allowed to do it if the people you are harming are themselves people-harmers and your instance of harm will get them to stop that and that's why you're doing it as opposed to just being opportunistic antagonism, and that can get a little crazymaking when you have vast symmetrical-looking wars between Good and Evil that go on for millennia, but the basic idea isn't following a ton of rules or where would us Chaotic Goods be."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is preferring not to harm people a different thing from not preferring to harm people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think if you just go around not preferring to harm people you probably hit neutral. I mean, unless you harm people anyway, intent - contextualizes actions but doesn't count for much on its own, as I understand it. So you also have to act on preferring not to harm people - and preferring that people not be harmed, maybe I should have put it that way to begin with, like this is why charity works for Good points because you can just buy some people-not-being-harmed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay, well, I think that explains what Cheliax does that makes people Evil, it raises children to mostly worry about their own problems and let other people worry about theirs. There are a lot of people, you can't possibly be on top of whether a nontrivial share of them are getting harmed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It doesn't have to be a particularly nontrivial share. Random farmers can make Good afterlives if they, like, look after their neighbors and are kind to their families. Osirion has many flaws but their big advantage is that they very seriously study this thing - the aim is getting people into Axis but they still take data on who misses and winds up in Heaven."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If I tried looking after my neighbors they would find that weird and scary and wonder what I was up to and why I was paying them particular attention and what I wanted in exchange."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. It's hard to be Good in an Evil place, and riskier. I had that going on too, drow're generally Evil. What I'm not sure is why it would be having you count as Evil instead of Neutral."

Permalink Mark Unread

It feels like a dangerous question to even consider but probably picking a bunch of people to defend from harm is giving up less of her than getting married, so it's worth possibly closing off that avenue if she has a real shot at a better one. She is not sure she believes she has a real shot at a better one. 

"Does it work if you are defending people from harm because you want to be Good or are you supposed to have an additional motive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's hard to be sure. All the evidence is from people with enough levels to ping, right, and from random afterlife sampling. If I were making the rules I'd say wanting to defend yourself from harm too shouldn't cost you any points but I am not Pharasma and in fact kind of want to stab her, so."

Permalink Mark Unread

There is something terribly pathetic about wanting to stab Pharasma, it's like believing you were stolen from birth parents who secretly love you and will come rescue you, or that your boyfriend really loves you and isn't seeing anyone on the side and testing the same lines on her, except - on a scale so much bigger than that she doesn't know what to make of it.

"Well. I guess I can - try to think about it and see if that is easier to work with."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I hope it helps."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you. You are better at explaining it than the paladins."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What'd they say?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, lots of stuff. They did a bunch of claiming to prefer not to hurt me which seemed like a real waste of all of our time but which is easier to contextualize if that's required for Good, we talked some about how Cheliax - rewrites its history a lot, and about how it's not a place where it's smart to complain, which would've been more convincing if I were suddenly now in a place where it's smart to complain, which I'm not...we talked about whether torturing people is effective. They believe that it is not."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you want us to shoo Mahdi so his opinion of your eligibility will not be affected by your complaints about his nose we can do that. I actually think you could probably complain about your lot in life all day long and the paladins would - I guess maybe reassess their estimate of how likely you are to reform your evil ways? But not, like, hit you, I'm not sure what you're expecting. Torturing people might be effective in some situations? I kind of doubt that paladins checked, so I wouldn't take their word for it, but I'd expect Cheliax to consider it effective at something even if it's not effective at any of the things a normal person would want to do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They did not check. They were very sure despite not having checked. Also when they kidnapped me they wore the armor of the Hellknight unit that arrests dissidents and troublemakers and they showed up in our camp and blindfolded me and chained me up and took me away without saying anything and then asked all their questions while I thought they were my people, which was a very reasonable thing to do, I'm not objecting, but I don't see any kind of distinction between that and kicking someone."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Did you ask them that? I don't know, like, the text of the vows of this particular order."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I asked. He said that hurting a prisoner is a bright line in a way that everything that causes a prisoner as much distress as hurting them isn't, and the latter's unworkable as a rule, so they're not allowed to hurt prisoners, but you could just as easily say that the latter's unworkable as a rule so you should just give up on the idea that there should be rules about how you treat prisoners."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, you could, but they're paladins, they're Lawful and have rules about things. If you're going to keep prisoners at all - and you have to if you don't want to just execute people without even questioning them whenever it comes up - then you can't keep their chipper moods as a very high priority, since they're going to object to being kept prisoner even if you put them up in a nice hotel with fruity pastries and floral soap. But you can still care about it at all, and one of the things that you can care about quite a lot without making it that much harder to keep prisoners in the first place is not smacking them around."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So it's like - they get the Good points for picking an element of the situation to care about, even if it doesn't matter? Can you be Good by caring very much about ...whether people get an afterlife, and not about other things about them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, maybe? If you... travel to one of the new planets with a wand of Malediction and start damning people because otherwise they don't seem to have an afterlife, then no, I bet you that would not, but if you... found some way to defend the river of souls? Went and did a term of service at the House of Oblivion and did this specifically because divs eat souls and that's fucked up? Got really offended at the grubs in the Abyss being gobbled up and resurrected some random dead drow? Might work."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess I would be interested in doing those things, because people shouldn't stop existing... why does it not count in the Hell case, just because anything you do for Hell can't be Good?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Malediction's an evil spell, for one thing, and you can make a case that it shouldn't be if the person's otherwise going to vanish, but - actually you know what we should do is ask the person, whatshisface, for the name of somebody recently dead, see if we can scry 'em - but even if you construct the case for it, for practical purposes you need Pharasma's buy-in and that wouldn't be the way to bet. There's probably things you can do for Hell that wouldn't be evil. If you anonymously sent Asmodeus a nice cask of tea that would probably be more Chaotic than anything. But contributing to the general Hellish effort to do Hellish things is going to tend to be Evil since the Hellish things are."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure." Sigh. "So once Asmodeus has conquered the whole world everything'll be Evil because it advances Hellish aims?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I guess? I don't know, I'd kind of expect somebody to start threatening to let Rovagug out before it go that far."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Probably that's why He hasn't done it yet but someday everyone that awful will be out of the way."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You seem very confident in his long term prospects of success here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If any of the other gods could stop Him they would've done that when He took Cheliax. They couldn't, and didn't, and every year Hell is in a stronger position and everyone else isn't. ...the Abyss will continue being around on account of being infinite, and I guess the other chaotic planes too."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Have you tried asking a paladin why they didn't stop him then?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They were kind of shifty about it but they agree that He's much stronger than Iomedae because She's a new god and had a lot invested in Aroden's plans which Asmodeus foiled."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I didn't know Asmodeus took credit for killing Aroden."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - who did you think did it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- I have no idea, I just didn't know that Asmodeus said it was him. Which does at least suggest it is not widely understood to be the case."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Asmodeus mostly lets the other gods be - they're not pursuing his goals, but gods are - the kind of entities that matter. He'll destroy them if they get in his way but not otherwise. So He's killed Ihys, for giving mortals free will, and Aroden, for his scheme to rule Golarion or whatever it was."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The Ihys one I'd heard before. Uh, how central to your Asmodeanism is Asmodeus's personal badassery and his history of assassinations?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, if He were going to lose then it would be stupid to follow Him."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...it'd still make local sense for all the same reasons if he were going to lose in five thousand years but still at this time controlled Cheliax. It's not like he'd say 'public service announcement, I'm expecting to go down like a ship made of sharkbait'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't - care about five thousand years, not really, or - I do, but it's a mistake of the kind humans make, and I am not going to decide my life with it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think he's poised to take over the world next week."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. But if He's going to do it eventually, then I want to be something He can use, and if He's not going to do it eventually, then whoever is, I want to be something They can use. Because - that's five million years, five billion years - it's the difference between everything and nothing -"

Permalink Mark Unread

 

Belmarniss glances around at her party members for help. "You guys are letting me do all the talking."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You were doing a good job of it. Uh, the thing that jumps to mind for me is that things we can do might determine whether Asmodeus, in fact, conquers the universe forever, and that's important on whatever scale you'd like."

Permalink Mark Unread

That is pathetic the way wanting to stab Pharasma is except infinitely moreso.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Axis gets stronger every year," he says. "They invent things. Hell copies the things they invent, admittedly, but - not all inventions are straightforwardly copiable, and the culture of inventiveness evidently isn't."

Permalink Mark Unread

That is.... a convincing argument for permitting the continued existence of Axis once Asmodeus has conquered everything.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I heard that the secret to a happy marriage is to not argue religion with your wife, actually," says Mahdi.

Permalink Mark Unread

Hagan swats him.

Permalink Mark Unread

Belmarniss snickers. "I kind of get the sense that - you want to be on the winning side and this consideration so dominates your preferences here that you're not really considering there to be a separate fact of the matter about who's right or who's better besides who wins - but that's not all you have going on, if it turned out that your church had been bullshitting you and actually some people are useful to Asmodeus only as snacks would that change anything? I don't specifically expect that, just trying to tease it apart -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- yes, that matters, it's important that in Hell even if you're - weak and broken and bad at things - they'll use you, if they instead destroyed you for that - it'd be important to make sure no one was weak and broken and bad at things I guess, it would not change the feasibility of fighting a god -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I - think there are stories about devils getting destroyed in internal power struggles in Hell?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Nod. "And some die fighting demons or angels or archons. But - but it matters whether the underlying ideology uses everybody or destroys some of them, even if the conquering the other Outer Planes hasn't finished yet and even if you won't get perfect internal obedience."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Those aren't the only two options."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not sure I follow."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"Nirvana sends somebody to everybody's trial. They don't use them for things, far as I'm aware, or destroy them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, probably you're missing something, but if not, that sounds unsustainable."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Because if something costs you something and gets you nothing then you will eventually get rid of it, or at least not bother expending resources to defend it from someone more motivated to possess it than you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think they're getting nothing, I think they aren't getting use. They're buying some people-not-being-harmed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's....not the relevant kind of something."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you could spend, like, a copper, to cause someone's soul to not get eaten, would you do it even if you didn't get the soul afterwards?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I ...guess? I wouldn't spend all my money on it. I dunno how I'd decide when to stop. When the novelty wore off, maybe."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Good common sense, there," says Mahdi. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"Let's say you'd spend a whole gold on it, that's a hundred souls. Do you suppose it's likely on balance that even if you didn't follow up on that one of 'em would ever make a gold in their ensuing existence and also be like 'that was pretty cool, I'll do that too, till the novelty wears off' -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure, all right, if it's that cheap and it's a one-off maybe people get helped for the novelty. But - it's an ongoing cost, sustaining a divine realm that other people can live in, and it's not cheap, and if you get nothing out of it eventually you'll stop. That's - the whole problem I have now, right, is that it's not very cheap for me to continue to exist so everyone has to try to figure out if there's a way to get enough out of me to make it worth it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There's an idea, we could drop you off in Nirvana, see if they have anti-suicide precautions..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They don't, I did ask the paladins if it'd been considered. Happy to take her, absolutely not equipped to keep her from doing magic research, on the spot, badly."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't want to kill myself. Why would I do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"To report to Hell, presumably. That's why an Atonement would also work."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Asmodeus probably already knows there are other worlds and I don't know that Kyeo's are specifically interesting or valuable to Him and I like being alive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Be that as it may."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it is not that expensive to create and defend spaces where people can figure out good lives. Elysium is infinite and Desna is not to my understanding actively doing maintenance, and it's lovely, and the inhabitants defend themselves and intervene elsewhere on behalf of others as suits them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think Elysium would be a nice place if it had to take everybody."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There is a tradeoff between resource-intensiveness and niceness and universalness, yeah. But almost all of the places at any point on that tradeoff are better than Hell."

Permalink Mark Unread

" -relevantly here I don't think Hell is very bad or anything."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Devils are made, and warped to further alter them, through torture."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - yes, I know that. Childbirth, or war, or, I don't know, eating chili peppers, is also painful but sometimes people do painful things because there are desired results."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If it were voluntary I would have many fewer objections."

Permalink Mark Unread

"People want stupid things and the things Asmodeus wants for them are more important than the stupid things they want themselves."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"Isn't that what's wrong with Ibyabek?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's wrong with Ibyabek is that they all die and don't go anywhere after that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That too, but the reason they're so poor is the thing where somebody's deciding that they should want only specified things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That seems like it would be fine if the person in question wanted them poor for some reason like that it'll make them more motivated or more compliant. It seems pretty stupid if it happened by accident because they didn't understand what money was for."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Are you actually indifferent between Cheliax being poor and Cheliax being rich -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- no, I'd rather Cheliax be rich, because from a position of strength you can get more done. I think I'm indifferent about other places that aren't even geopolitically entangled, or trade partners, being rich or being poor. Especially if they don't even have magic."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Get more of what done?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can't really think of anything it doesn't help with. More conquest, more defense, better daycares, better schools, better academies of magic..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, yes, it's very generically useful, but do you perceive this all as aiming at the preservation of as many souls as possible, or at just not doing anything silly and embarrassing like a prolonged failure to accede to the inevitable, or what."

Permalink Mark Unread

She looks kind of puzzled by the question. "It's ....aimed at whatever Asmodeus is aiming at...He doesn't tell us...Iomedae doesn't usually tell the paladins either, I asked."

Permalink Mark Unread

"She has a holy book though I confess I've yet to make time to read it. My lay understanding was 'defeating evil' - that being, given the aforementioned discussion, a gloss on 'getting some people-harmers to not be doing that any more' -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. They feel that them killing us is fundamentally different than us killing them. I guess it is, in the sense that Asmodeus isn't the god of fighting Good, He has actual goals, we're about things and they're about destroying us...

 

I don't think Cheliax has ever kidnapped a paladin out of their room at the Worldwound under false pretenses to stop Heaven learning something. We don't need to because we're not weak."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He has actual goals which you assume don't refer solely to the suspiciously symmetric-looking warfare, you don't know what they are, you just assume they're important because a god has them? - also I don't actually expect that if for some reason a paladin was known to have learned something very destabilizing Cheliax would hesitate to kidnap them about it, do you actually expect that -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They probably would if it came up. And Good would be very outraged about it and point to it as proof of how Evil we are. But I don't think it has come up, because Hell mostly isn't pretending anything, and we're not so weak we can't achieve our goals unless no one else even gets a shot at convincing people of theirs.

I'm not even sure the warfare is symmetric, people go to Heaven specifically because they want to fight Hell and people go to Hell specifically because they want to sell magic items in Dis or serve Moloch or get that job where you talk people condemned to Abaddon into coming to us instead, I've never heard anyone say 'I want to go to Hell so I can fight Heaven', I don't think we raid them and they raid us all the time

- Asmodeus had goals before there were even good gods around to oppose Him so I don't think it's a strange supposition He still has them. It ...doesn't matter if I think they're important? I can declare the sun unimportant, too, if I want."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What it would mean if they're unimportant to you is that you don't consider them a point in Asmodeus's favor, when deciding whose side you're on."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know very much about Asmodeus's goals - nor do you - except that He started at them by making Cheliax the richest country in the world and the only one where anyone who's any good can be a wizard, and that He killed Aroden, and that Hell is the way it is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Which is to say a place where people get tortured a lot whether or not they want to, to turn into something useful to Asmodeus."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know how Osirians do parenting but in Cheliax we make children eat their fruits and vegetables whether or not they want to, to turn into bigger children who don't have rickets."

Permalink Mark Unread

Mahdi looks like he is not delighted about the idea of Carissa doing parenting.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hell's normal operations are fairly provocative to people who disapprove of torture more than they disapprove of vegetables."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That sounds like a them problem, honestly."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, I'm not sure I have another angle on this right now."

Permalink Mark Unread

She shrinks into herself slightly. Nods. "Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Should we, uh, take a break -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I don't have anywhere else to be, we can, like, try again later if Carissa wants, I have no idea how I compare to paladins at making progress."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think I'm less confused. - accordingly a little less optimistic that I will like Good once it's all explained, but I am grateful to be less confused. I do want to keep trying, if you're willing. If you come up with what you'd want I will try to be it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You wouldn't have to get all the way to Good but making the case for Good seems more accessible than guessing what exactly Cheliax's mechanism of Evil-manufacture is so you can specifically repent of being caught up in it." Shrug.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

Out goes Belmarniss.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow, fuck Cheliax," he says once they're well clear of her cell. "What a - stupid, wasteful -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wish I knew what they were doing! She has a stupid philosophical position but that wouldn't send her to Hell by itself, it's just making it hard to Atone her, there's something else, and I vaguely imagined it would become obvious if I talked to a Chelish person long enough and it's not at all!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe we should go through a - day-by-day schedule, I can't see why she'd be eliding 'then we brand children with hot pokers' but if it's subtle - and it must be - or something she's assuming everyone is doing..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe you can actually be evil just for supporting Asmodeus and working loyally for His country. I think you can mostly get Law off supporting Abadar and working for His."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Law is different, Law just is about the same things that being loyal to a sufficiently consistent country is about - I can't rule it out but - the schedule's a good idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What do you think of her."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I really hope they don't kill her. I - it wouldn't really be a proper marriage and I don't think I like the thing it'd be. Feels petty, to kill someone for that, but -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"'s it legal to just buy her, not call it a marriage, just have a high-maintenance slave making magic items in your basement? Guess the paladins might not like it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure. If she'd committed a crime it'd be legal, but - she hasn't actually-

- also keeping a woman enslaved in your basement seems like the kind of thing where you shouldn't be trusting in your own character."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We could drop by and be your character."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, Fazil's got truth magic and everything."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can - look up the rules for importing slaves." He grimaces. "If the paladins will go for it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They probably are not allowed to sell prisoners into slavery."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What, and they didn't dismiss 'marry her off to my Osirian best friend on pain of likely death should she refuse' out of hand?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, they weren't thrilled about it, but just killing her isn't better, and they don't have a policy against arranging marriages for prisoners, the way they are absolutely going to have one about selling them into slavery."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If they pay me to take her then that's not selling her into slavery."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I feel like this is really just an example of why people say Lawful Good is Lawful Stupid."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It makes a lot of sense to have a policy against selling your prisoners into slavery even if there are weird edge cases where it is actually a good idea! It also makes a lot of sense to not have a similar policy for marriages and evaluate them on a case-by-case basis, if you trust you can filter for the ones that will be good for both people, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to suppose that sometimes you can. There are genuinely fewer incentive issues on their end with them paying Mahdi to take her so it is possible they'll consider that, which doesn't mean -"

Permalink Mark Unread

" - hey. I'm sorry. I didn't mean - I know you're trying really hard, here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, I doubt if it'd be good for both people except when compared with death."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it'd be ...fine. Which is why I feel like a bit of a jerk, it'd be easy to say 'no way' if it was going to be a disaster."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You want kids?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. But not by her, necessarily, if she's going to be any of unhappy about it or committed to raising Asmodeans or just, uh, awkward to be definitely tied to forever if she seems to be making progress on the conversion and might at any point want to go off and do her own thing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Guess you'll be able to afford a mysterious foreign breadwinner wife and also a normal one with better parenting philosophy." She shakes her head. "Maybe I'll get somewhere with her - she got more combative toward the end and I don't know if that's actually a good sign or just a bad one but it did make it more frustrating."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it was good. I think when she didn't expect the conversion to even maybe get anywhere she was - looking more at Mahdi, trying to not -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not have a personality. I feel like Cheliax is unjustly maligning our marriage practices. I would like my wife to have a personality. - admittedly not an Asmodean one but - knew that coming in -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anyway I think she was engaging more honestly once it seemed like it might be her best shot. Which doesn't mean it'll work, but."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I should de-etherize some of my old notes and see if I have anything good in there for stuff I wanted to ask an Asmodean if one were holding still for me, since one is now."

Permalink Mark Unread

"She is that." Sigh. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"She's very hot. - this does not make me a terrible person, it is allowed, since I'm considering marrying her."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It does not make you a terrible person but I think it'd be a terrible idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, definitely."

Permalink Mark Unread

Nod nod.

Permalink Mark Unread

And he gets them some rooms and recruits some paladins for speculation about how to fix Ibyabek.

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo goes in to see Carissa after they've gone. Assuming he's still allowed to do that.

Permalink Mark Unread

No one stops him. Carissa's hair is done up nicely and she is drumming her hands on the wall in front of her.

 

"Hey."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hi. I was curious how it went. ...your hair is different?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I asked a guard to do it. To be more tempting to that fraction of the male population that doesn't prefer me disheveled. And isn't gay, but the cleric was not trying to set me up with his gay friend, why would he do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You... sound more stressed out than usual."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sorry. It went - fine, I guess. They had another go at explaining Good and made more sense, I think, though I'm still worried I can't actually be it. Their account was that Good is about preferring people not be hurt and generally acting like that, except when you're stopping them from hurting other people, for a broad definition of hurting other people that includes -" Vague gesture about her present situation.

Permalink Mark Unread

"You... didn't hurt anyone that I know of?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, if I got released I'd try to explain myself to my command, which would interfere with whatever they're planning, and I guess that counts as hurting people enough that they're allowed to kill me to stop me. ...I found it kind of unconvincing on that front in particular. You could ask the drow girl yourself, she was the one who was doing most of the explaining. - Drow means purple."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...she's purple??"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I hadn't met one before and had to clarify that I am not Evil because I eat babies or something after she asserted that she would, if babies were served, but aside from that she made more sense than people mostly have. Maybe because her society is Evil too, so she's a little skeptical of the whole thing?" Shrug. "The one who might want me is Mahdi and I still don't know much about him but he did think I was hot so I guess that's a hopeful sign."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay. I think there was a fourth one?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Adventuring parties usually have some muscle, probably he is their that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Are you going to marry Mahdi?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If he wants me! I'm not sure if he does, though, I can't keep up the being Osirian for any amount of serious conversation and I really didn't want to pass up the chance to maybe understand what Good is and get an Atonement...."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's an Atonement?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They cast a powerful spell and appeal to Iomedae personally and ask Her to - realize, on the level that matters for judgment, my change of heart and rejection of Asmodeanism, and if She thinks I'm sincere then I stop being lawful evil and I'll go somewhere else when I die and they won't have to kill me. I can maybe ask for Abadar to be appealed-to instead, I'm not sure, because it's so expensive they'll be really mad if I ask for it and then I don't count as sincere enough."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why is it expensive? Can't they pray for free?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It requires a lot of rare incense. I don't know why. Maybe the gods imposed the rule so people wouldn't be demanding their attention for Atonements all the time?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh.

Can't you pray for free?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess so. Gods mostly only act through people who are one alignment step away from them, though, I don't know if Iomedae would hear me. I guess it can't hurt to try."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Abadar's closer? Right? - maybe I should try this."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe you should. You could look up and try a bunch of them, since you don't know your alignment."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why don't they, anyway?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. "You can only tell alignment for powerful people. I think the theory is everyone's got it but usually too faint to pick up, and once you're powerful it's not that faint anymore."

Permalink Mark Unread

"But what is 'powerful' supposed to mean?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You've - changed the world a lot, I guess?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess I haven't done that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wizards don't get it until third circle, so, you can be quite accomplished in your field and still not count in the way that gets a reading off alignment. 

I wonder if it goes away. If you're never allowed to do anything ever again."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wouldn't know."

Permalink Mark Unread

Permalink Mark Unread

"How... does one... pray?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You kneel, ideally at a church or altar or something dedicated to the god but I think in principle anywhere will do, and you close your eyes, and you clasp your hands and you think about the god and imagine everything that they are, seeing you, and choosing to notice you, and then you think whatever it is you wanted to think at them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That... sounds weird."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It would be sort of surprising if your world had people do similar things what with how there are no gods."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I suppose that's true enough."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe if we got the paladins to pray with us it'd be louder, since they're the right alignment. And I bet they'd love and feel so smug about it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was actually thinking of trying Abadar but really don't want to ask Fazil."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I can do that one with you if you want? Abadar should be able to hear me, since He's neutral."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...sure, okay." ...kneeling.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

Carissa tries to think what she knows about Abadar. Lawful neutral. The founding god of Axis. God of wealth and commerce, shows his favor with successful voyages. This is not even definitely treason, though - it feels terrifying.

She conceded, in the argument earlier, that it seemed plausible that Axis was better at inventing things than Hell. 

She tries to reach for - what does it mean, to give yourself to the god of wealth and commerce, what does Abadar want from the people in his shining city -


Nothing.

Law. She believes in Law. In - rules, that you are punished for disobeying and not punished for obeying - in it being possible to do things right. She's mad at herself now, for not having a better articulation than that, because she knows that's not it -

- I want to do valuable things. I might want to do valuable things for You, if I understood...

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo doesn't have a lot to work with.

He is trying to reach - the god of the thing Ibyabek doesn't have. The god of - the thing behind the pictures.

Permalink Mark Unread

And then there's a brief sense of brushing against something overwhelming, like sticking your head out of a car while it's going at its top speed -

- and a sudden blur of a hundred things that don't fit into the format sending them or the format receiving them -

 

- stores full of products, their proprietors patrolling them, looking at what people choose so they can adjust the prices, order more, keep things on the shelves and guess what new things people want -

- a thousand conversations, in restaurants, in taverns, people value this and that's important in itself but they're doing more than that, they're trading ideas, trading wants, trading dreams, growing each others' dreams bigger -

- a woman in Osirion learns how to make magic items without being magic, starts selling them at much much cheaper than the usual price, hires apprentices, trains people in what she's doing, and from a gods-eye view there's a ripple cascading out around the world, making things better -

another woman, tinkering with a spinning-wheel, another ripple -

- a man working on magic, a ripple, a man at a paper-mill, a ripple, a group of people with some kind of mechanical loom, a ripple, until the world is awash in them -

- two people, speaking over a shabby wooden table. 'If I work extra hours for six months,' he is saying, 'we'll be able to afford a place across town' - different people - 'if I take in some laundry we could do without his income, send him to my uncle' - 'if we put aside a copper every day' - 'if we plowed an extra field' - and their dreams realized, gloriously, a place across town, a son who is a master craftsman, comfortable new furnishings and new careers, glass bowls and metal tools and dresses and feasts -

Permalink Mark Unread

It's like being told that actually on most planets you can add two and two and get five and having pairs of things swept into heaps and shown to be five, over and over.

Permalink Mark Unread

A hundred refinements making a better way to do a shipping manifest making a better shipping manifest, there's so much detail, a thousand experimental spinning wheels discarded, one that works, dozens and dozens of restaurants, people throwing themselves into the sea of what other people want and finding it the fastest teacher in the universe, the purest teacher in the universe, the teacher that has more to teach you the more you are ready to learn -

 

 

And then Kyeo is alone on the floor with a headache.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, and Carissa, whose praying is not getting her anywhere.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"Is it supposed to hurt?"

Permalink Mark Unread

" - did it work?" She's looking at him with something like awe. "Uh, I don't know. Paladins do healing - I think sometimes people go blind or mad from talking to gods but - mostly gods who're crazy, I think -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can see. I guess I'm not positive I haven't gone mad. My head really hurts."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll ask the guards to get someone for you." She stands up and walks the three feet she can walk and then shouts frustratedly, "can one of your paladins come check on Kyeo -"

Permalink Mark Unread

He rubs the back of his neck, trying to locate and unkink some offending muscle.

Permalink Mark Unread

The guard comes in and puts his hand on Kyeo's arm and does the soothing magic thing but the headache seems fairly impervious to it. "What happened?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...is praying supposed to hurt."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- not to Iomedae."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wasn't Iomedae, I tried Abadar."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. I think the gods who were never human aren't - quite safe - not in a way where there will be any long-term harm, I don't think, but let's get you tea, and maybe you should lie down..." 

He glances at Carissa.

Permalink Mark Unread

Permalink Mark Unread

" - you don't try anything while I'm getting your friend help, understand?" And he tries to help Kyeo to his feet.

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo is perfectly able to stand and walk around while in considerable amounts of pain!

Permalink Mark Unread

Then they will get him out of there and to the hospital wing of the temple where he can rest and drink some tea that helps a little bit and have someone cast a Silence spell that helps more than that.

Permalink Mark Unread

If Fazil had just said "it works by adding two and two to make five" this would not actually have been a good explanation but maybe the process of saying it that way would have made it clear to Fazil how hard explaining it was going to be.

Kyeo drinks his tea and attempts to nap.

Permalink Mark Unread

The headache fades over the next couple of hours and is entirely gone by dinnertime.

Permalink Mark Unread

That's good. He looks around for the purple girl and her friends but does not collect the nerve to go up to them and sit with them at this time.

Permalink Mark Unread

They are talking speculatively about how to explain Good to Asmodeans and what to get from the other worlds and how to set up permanent trade arrangements.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Did you try scrying someone there who is dead and seeing what you got -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No. We should ask Kyeo but - when he's ready, I think."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You two don't get along?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I - don't blame him for anything. But - no, not really."

Permalink Mark Unread

Belmarniss looks over at Kyeo. "He looks fairly inoffensive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He's a lovely person. He took a lot of offense when I was upset about his slave planet and I don't know where to start explaining things to him but he's perfectly nice.

 

 But we've had two interactions, the getting upset about the slave planet and then talking to Carissa, where she told me that he was - some Avistani word for men who don't ever care for women and then he announced that actually he'd been cured of it and then everyone was kind of bewildered at each other about that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Cured of - that does seem a bit bewildering."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Everything about the interaction was very bewildering! There was some treatment he was clearly very distressed by, and he insisted it had worked at making him not attracted to men, but it hadn't done anything about attraction to women, and the point of it was to get married, though also he says no men sleep with men on his planet, which I suppose makes sense if they treat it medically as soon as anyone tries it, but, why would you bother?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Some places think it's indecent once you're married?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"That didn't seem like the thing. Though it did, separately, confuse Carissa."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What confused Carissa?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"That Osirians do not object to married people having same-sex lovers on the side."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Was this decision-relevant for her?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am not sure it'd be decision-relevant for her whether you were a demon with a maw of acid."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...she volunteered the opinion that it would be annoying to be exclusively attracted to men because then you'd be risking pregnancy when you sought out, uh, 'hookups'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you are undecided you should probably just - talk to her one-on-one."

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. "Let's see if we can bring her around on not being Evil first."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah..." Belmarniss pulls out her index notebook and sticks bookmarks in a few pages.

Permalink Mark Unread

Carissa doesn't keep trying to pray to Abadar after Kyeo leaves; clearly that was a sufficient duration of praying to Abadar and He doesn't care to talk to her right now, which is ridiculous to be offended about because she's never even heard of the thing that just happened to Kyeo. Priests get visions and dreams sometimes. Maybe Kyeo is ironically a perfect cleric of a god of wealth once he understands what wealth is.

 

She spends the evening waffling between despair that the Osirian doesn't want her and she'll be put to death and go to Hell in ten thousand years when her statue crumbles, if she's lucky, and despair that he does and in two days she'll be signed over to him with lots of people around smiling thinking this is a happy ending.

She sleeps poorly, which she has been lately, and it doesn't matter because she's not a spellcaster anymore.

Permalink Mark Unread

In the morning Belmarniss shows up to bother her.

Permalink Mark Unread

" - hey." She should not really waste time trying to parse what this means for which bad thing is going to happen. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hi. I have located in my notes index some old questions I had in mind to ask an Asmodean if I ever had one who'd hold still for me and I can de-etherealize the books to see what they were but if you actually do not feel this would be a good use of your morning I can save the spell slots I'd use to put them back again, use 'em to spar with paladins or something."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, are you a sorcerer?... is there a spell for storing things that aren't spellbooks that way? 

I - don't have plans and will try to be helpful to you if I can."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm a sorcerer and a wizard both. And it's the same spell but I stick it to a Secret Page when the book's otherwise nonmagical. I'm here to be helpful to you, I just thought my old notes'd be a good jumping off point."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ah. Okay. I appreciate it."

Permalink Mark Unread

She looks at her index, appears a book in her hand, turns to the correct page. "So some of this is obviated by my having not known much about Asmodeanism at the time and basically treating it as a black box of 'why would anyone be on team Asmodeus, I guess that's just one of the mysteries of life', it might take me a bit to find anything that still applies." Flip flip. "Anything much on your mind?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Asking whether the wizard wants her would be pathetic. "Is Kyeo okay?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I saw him at dinner yesterday and he looked fine. What happened?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We tried praying to Abadar and he caught a headache out of it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ooh, lucky him, that only happens if they bother with you! I'm planning to try to get lots of headaches before I go for the Starstone."

Permalink Mark Unread

"But it doesn't cause - damage, or anything?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Responses to prayer, no, not as far as I know. Going for the Starstone on the other hand is overwhelmingly fatal."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That I knew."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anyway, yeah, he's fine... The church controls the school system in Cheliax, right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. We're the only place I know of that has universal public schooling at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is that where you're getting most of your information on, like, divine power levels and long term conflict projections and the supreme importance of whatever the fuck Asmodeus does in his spare time and all that jazz?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I also talked to people at the Worldwound, but yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And you think the church of Asmodeus is really committed to giving you an accurate view of the world, uh, why?"

Permalink Mark Unread

" - I assume they're lying and you're lying and everybody's lying and checking whether everybody else's lies are persuasive enough only apparently Atonement runs off some level of conviction it is hard to access just from lectures. I am trying to believe the locally correct thing but it is pretty confusing even figuring out what it is and figuring out how to believe it is harder than that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you want me to go and get Fazil and come back with an Abadar symbol for a hat and say some stuff?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I know everyone's lying all the time and I can still pass a truth spell if I'm lying only the ways everyone's lying all the time and not the way where you - directly misrepresent something observable you just observed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...well, if you can be specific enough about in what ways you think everyone's lying all the time, I'll know what to say once I have a hat, won't I."

Permalink Mark Unread

It is so profoundly unfair that she is going to die if she can't win this game and absolutely no one seems willing to acknowledge they're playing it.

"Lots of things happen. People pick which things they are going to talk about and which examples to bring up and what to imply and what to consider on topic, and they do that so they can continue having their ideology and not listen to other ones. Truth spells do not object to this at all, they're for things like, did you murder that man. People also lie about that but it's not - the thing that is going on in schools, and in paladin orders, and in holy books and at the Worldwound and when you are a prisoner and people are trying to convert you to their religions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't have a religion, I just think it'd be a terrible pity if you wound up having to marry Mahdi, neither of you would really like it. I guess I cannot claim to not be... exercising decisionmaking power over what I say... without losing my hat, but I'm not sure how you come by any of your beliefs if you have this outlook actually?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...well, you check which things you have to believe so people won't kill you, and then you backfill with other beliefs that make those ones work. - why do you think he wouldn't like it, I am not trying to give the impression I'll be hard to get along with."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There have been worse marriages, I'm sure, but keeping you a safe distance from all the parenting decisions would be hard even if all the kids were some future second wife's. And also normally the extent to which Osirian wives are serfs in pretty earrings is disguised considerably by the wives agreeing that the earrings are terribly pretty because they grew up in Osirion themselves, and you are not actually doing that. What... do you mean you backfill with - what the heck is your brain even doing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It worked fine until something really weird happened!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"But what actually is the thing that worked fine?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Identifying the beliefs that you have to have or people will kill you. Then figuring out what other things would need to be true so you can have the beliefs you're supposed to. Then - the worlds that aren't like that aren't worth dwelling on, since you'll just get killed if you can't figure things out, so you may as well focus your attention in the worlds where you're basically holding it together right and you believe the things you're supposed to. And then you do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"That's... not normal."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mindread about sixty people a week and it's very normal."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe it's normal in Cheliax."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It does seem like people here are working with different concepts which is why their explanations don't work well for me. What would work well for me is a list of the beliefs I'm supposed to have, and then of some heresies so I know what amount of divergence is too much, and then some time and - usually other people are doing it too and that helps..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I... don't know enough to guess if that would actually work well enough for an Atonement."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Me neither. Which is why I was looking for another plan - his worry is that I'll be bad at parenting? Why would you - I don't need to be allowed to interact with the rest of his life at all - and if he does want me to do that I can learn -" This is pathetic too but she's so tired.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can try the list of beliefs and heresies thing, just - I'm not sure that amounts to believing stuff as opposed to playing very elaborate pretend?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know. I haven't really thought about it much before."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If I go to Shazeun - drow country under Osirion - with Hagan pretending to be my slave because that's what's legible in Shazeun, then in front of people I'll boss him around and make him carry my stuff and whatnot, and he will in reality do what I tell him and carry the stuff, and if he suddenly broke character in the wrong place at the wrong time I might actually backhand him to try to salvage the illusion so we could both keep doing whatever we were doing, and - do you see the sense in which there is a meaningful difference between 'we're pretending so we don't get much attention' and 'actually, he's my slave for as long as we're down there and then I just set him free with very little ceremony when we hit surface'?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, sort of? I think it matters - whether, if you suddenly changed your mind and decided to enslave him, you could."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess I could in the middle of our shopping trip decide to rent an apartment there and move into it and not give him a minute to go 'what the fuck' without making it conspicuous to third parties but our friends would at some point come looking for him. But that's also true of slaves drow acquire through ordinary kidnapping, that someone may come looking for them."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - it matters a lot how likely it is? And how - I don't know. If I'm sparring with a friend, that's pretend. If we go to some country where murdering each other in duels is legal, and we're sparring, that's pretend. But I don't know for sure it's pretend because he might at any moment decide it's real, and then it would be, his deciding would make it so. I think if someone else's deciding would make you a slave it's not entirely pretend anymore."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So I guess it's kind of a spectrum of pretend and the thing you described sounded kinda too pretend. Presumably you have less-pretend beliefs about, like, what the word 'potato' means, even though you also have only everyone's say-so to go on there and a sufficient conspiracy could have fooled you, or... how many siblings you have, so you'd be genuinely surprised if your dad were hiding a second family with a bunch of extra brothers somewhere even if that's probably happened to somebody at least once and you wouldn't have said you were certain-sure your dad would never..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"He has three acknowledged children? It wouldn't actually be surprising at all if there were others he has nothing to do with. A secret family would be surprising because I've lived with him and I know how he accounts for his time. I guess it wouldn't be surprising if it was recent. If I've directly observed things then reality is going to be consistent with what I directly observed, obviously counting that people might've been trying to trick me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Are there things you can think of that are consistent with reality but that would surprise you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If ...Kyeo weren't gay that would surprise me. If Mahdi were that would surprise me. ...making predictions there is extra important, right, I think I try harder at it.

Permalink Mark Unread

"How did you identify Kyeo as gay, it didn't sound like he confided this to you -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mostly that he wasn't into me at all, not even halfway in the 'but for X she'd be my type' way. ...I know in principle some people just have different tastes but in practice people who are attracted to women are - evaluating me in a way that he wasn't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And you've honed your ability to tell whether people are into you because historically that's been relevant to you, and you get - feedback on it - yes?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. And I read sixty peoples' minds every week."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Bleah. - I don't think Good people are in general anti-divination, that's just a me personally thing. Uh, anyway, the kind of belief that I think is not pretend is the kind where you would be surprised if you found it was false. Doing this with moral beliefs is hard mode because so little of them is - empirical -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I cannot imagine possibly believing anything about politics or gods so determinedly I would be surprised if it were false."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Gods don't actually exist? Ihys is alive and well? Norgorber is secretly an azata filling the niche so someone worse won't. All politicians are sincerely motivated by a desire to do right by their people and every election is legitimate in places that have those. Taxation has no effect on consumption. Political assassinations are rare and monarchs are just really bad at labeling their decorative arsenic."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess I would be surprised if gods didn't actually exist, not by the next two, I'd be surprised by...all politicians having a desire to do right by their people...because any time all people turn out a way is surprising and that's not a psychologically plausible way for humans to be. I don't know anything about how taxes work. I don't have expectations about how often people get assassinated. Probably poisoning them would be rare since they can just get raised and now they're mad at you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Drow princesses get poisoned all the time, usually when their enemies control the church or the diamond mines or when being assassinated is such a bad sign for her competence that it'll ruin her anyway." Sigh. "Mahdi had the idea that you give a day-by-day rundown of what you normally do so we can see if any of it is sneakily evil, does that sound workable?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. Uh, at the Worldwound I wake up, I attend morning prayers, I - pray to be shown Asmodeus's will and to be worthy of it, I eat breakfast, I work on my existing enchanting project for the bulk of the day, with a lunch break, I finish my enchanting project for the day, I go to dinner, I randomly select and interview eight of our soldiers, I go socialize with adventurers and try to convince them to tell me about all of their magic items and where they got them and what behavior they exhibit."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...okay, praying to Asmodeus could be evil but probably doesn't do it, doing your mindreading interviews thing is probably more Law than Evil but might be any evil... do you take days off, what do you do then..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One a week, we spend more time at services and then usually we hang around and get drunk and listen to the adventurers trade stories. Some nights I do a Rope Trick and go see my girlfriend?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Also not evil unless the services are doing it all on their own and I spent a long time attending Demon Church and not that long adventuring..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If the interviews turn up someone planning treason or desertion I have to report them, and I have done that sometimes. It's my job and if I didn't do it they'd catch it anyway the next time it was a different wizard on duty, and kill me too for joining in on it, but - maybe that's irrelevant?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Could be, she doesn't grade on a curve."

Permalink Mark Unread

"But it makes it hard to repent of since I don't really wish I'd done something stupid instead. I guess probably I can come up with something for it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Paladins might know more about what counts."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can ask. 

 

Most Chelish people aren't wizards and don't have responsibility for unit discipline and they still all go to Hell."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Imagine - a random Chelish florist, what do they do all day."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Get up, pray, go to work, sell flowers, go out for dinner or drinks, go home, maybe with somebody, go to bed. On days off... go to services, go out and do their shopping, go to the theatre or the races or pick up extra work for more spending money..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If money were actually the root of all evil I think Osirion would've noticed and I still can't imagine it's just the praying! What the hell! Literally!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"My conclusion is that doing things is mostly Evil unless you're specifically trying to follow some other god about the things but it's weird that in other countries this is not consistently the case!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's not! Osirion has most people hitting Axis and religiosity makes a difference, mostly in Law, but not a huge one and not markedly toward Evil - drow are mostly evil but I could not think of any besides me who were adults and had definitely never been so much as complicit in a murder when I tried!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"People...watch executions? It's frowned upon to not show up to them. Lots of people have had abortions which I know is Evil but I haven't and that shouldn't get the men. Lots of people own slaves but I know lots of Osirians own slaves too and Cheliax doesn't actually permit enslaving humans, just halflings. And lots of wizards sell their souls but that's just - common sense, right, you're powerful enough to know you're already Evil, you would rather your soul be the property of a specific devil who can use it than join the general rabble flooding Avernus, it's a consequence not the original thing..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Osirion has found that slaveowning is a risk factor for Evil, actually, but it won't do it all by itself in an otherwise unremarkable life. And men being married isn't even though the pretty earrings shouldn't change it as much as all that, so it's probably just that people with slaves are likely to abuse them and spousal abuse is less typical. What's - what's the youngest someone's made a high enough circle to determine they're already Evil, that you know of, in Cheliax -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was 22. That's not literally a record for wizards but it's rare, and I don't know anyone who was younger ...the Queen took the throne at 17 and was already Lawful Evil - she's a sorcerer - though that's not a remotely typical case...I had a classmate who committed suicide when we were 15 and I scried him once, he's in Hell, but the suicide explains that all by itself..."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"Right now my best idea is 'see if Kyeo can raise Abadar again and this time ask him if he knows what the fuck, since he ought to have eyes there at all'."

Permalink Mark Unread

That sounds like a really long shot and she doesn't even expect there to be a real answer. She nods.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Does there seem to you to be - like - a fact of the matter about how much of a dick someone is depending on what they do in various situations? Like, somebody who makes his slaves work all day versus someone who does that and then also - what wouldn't affect their productivity - shaves their heads because they would prefer to have hair and this makes them cry, is the second one more of a dick or does it cash out in some other terms for you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We have the concept that some people are jerks, or sadists or whatever, I don't think it's got much to do with Evil but I could sort people I know by how much of a jerk they are."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The formal system is stupid in lots of ways but I manage to ping Good while thinking that, so it might still get somewhere. What makes people jerks?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Playing games with people." Like everyone here keeps doing. "Expecting not just that people will do what they're told but that they'll - entertain you with how they'll do it. Putting people in a position where they'll obviously do something pathetic, because you think it's funny. Betraying people when you don't even get anything out of it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Games like -"

Permalink Mark Unread

Like saying that to keep you in a box making magic items they have to marry you and you have to try to filter for people for whom the powerlessness isn't actively the entire point by acting like you might want this. Like requiring you to convert but not telling you so. Like having lots of rules about who you can complain to, because it's so important to treat you well, while planning to deny you an afterlife. 

"I dunno. Sometimes punishing people for being too standoffish and sometimes for being too chipper. Setting them tasks they can't succeed at so you can punish them for failing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay. But not, like, torturing people, that's not being a jerk?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Torturing someone because you want information they might have is just common sense, it's not being a jerk to try to accomplish your goals. Torturing someone as a punishment for breaking a rule they knew about or should've known about is not being a jerk. Torturing someone to teach them a skill or lesson that for some reason they can only learn by being tortured is not being a jerk. Torturing someone because you need to practice your torture skills for one of the above uses is not being a jerk. Torturing someone for no reason at all is being a jerk, I guess, but in real life it's almost always one of the above cases."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. What the goals are isn't an input? Setting a policy that torture is a consequence for rulebreaking isn't?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"N..no? Most peoples' goals are not my goals and my goals are not their goals but I wouldn't say that this makes them a jerk, having their own priorities. Why would I expect them to have my priorities. You need some consequence for rulebreaking and torture's nicer than - imprisonment, or maiming, or execution..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"People have different priorities all the time but in different ways. If somebody wants to build a very tall tower of their own drinking glasses I can think that's stupid but not be remotely invested in stopping them. If I am playing sports with some people they will have the goal of winning and I will have the goal of them losing so I can win instead, but that isn't the same category of opposition as if someone wants to torture me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why is it not the same category, it seems like the same category to me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, the point of wanting to win at sports is so the sport can take place at all and the point of not wanting to be tortured is that should that occur it will be bad for me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess I don't think of not liking being tortured and not liking losing games as different in kind. I guess you like games enough to choose to play them even knowing you might lose them? But mostly people get tortured because they, I dunno, decided to be a spy, or decided to worship another god, so you can say they liked those enough to chance losing. Maybe that's why it feels like more of a jerk move to torture someone for no reason."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What about people who go to Axis, if Asmodeus scoops 'em all up and starts torturing them when they were not particularly inviting this with risk-taking?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It feels a little silly to apply judgments like 'a jerk' to gods in the same spirit as it feels silly to apply them to hurricanes but if I think of a human-scale equivalent of that I'd think it was - sort of tragic. I'd hope we'll go after Heaven and the Abyss, which keep attacking us, and then Abaddon where they eat people, and just work out some kind of terms with Axis."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hurricanes don't make moral choices." She looks at her notes, shakes her head. "How do they get people like you, what in the world do you learn in school - I went to a heck of a lot of school myself and they did some creepy shit but -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think Chaotic Evil is a lot harder to make the case for because it's, uh, terrible. No offense."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not offended. We're generally told that no matter what we do, Pharasma is racist because Rovagug got some kind of spiritual ick on us so we're going to the Abyss no matter what and ought to be in good with the management, and then it's hard to be lawful around chaos because there's nobody to cooperate with and if they get as far as neutral they get their choice of doors and probably pick the one where maybe their buddies are waiting, but that's not really a case for the philosophy per se."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess I can see why, given that, you'd just try to be valuable enough to have some cover. 

 

If it were untrue that - Hell mostly makes use of people, or that Good is in significant part about fighting Hell, or that Asmodeus was a powerful god - or that Cheliax was a good country to live in - those feel like things that'd make me feel like I was wrong..."

Permalink Mark Unread

Niss writes all those down. "Well, what counts as making use of you. If the paladins turn you into a statue and you decorate the garden and they hang a clothesline off you are you useful?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't - really exist. Someone eating your corpse after you have died on Ibyabek and not gotten an afterlife doesn't make you useful because there isn't a you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What needs to be true about something, for it to be you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I feel like that is very obvious so maybe I'm missing the point of the question. I need to be...having some kind of experiences."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What needs to be true about the 'I' that is having some kind of experiences? If you get turned into a statue experiences will continue to happen, just not to you; if you get turned into a devil..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It started as me and then got to the person it is by having experiences."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You pretty sure that's all that's going on?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am not usually pretty sure of things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, if something else were going on would the devil be you or not?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It depends on what the other thing is but I think at least sometimes yes?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's it depend on?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am not thinking of a lot of things you could do to a person that don't cash out as 'experiences' but, uh, if you cast Feeblemind on me I don't particularly think that would be me, until it was fixed."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Delete all your memories? All at once or piecemeal, take your pick. Directly affect what you care about, like a heavy duty Suggestion? In case they don't want to do you the courtesy of presenting a list of beliefs and heresies and giving you a while. Enchantment-type effects in general, really. I guess being enchanted is sort of like having an experience but it isn't just an experience."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think you can make a case that while they are actively putting new thoughts in my head it's not me but once they stop it's me, just with the experience of having had the thoughts put in. If the paladins want to cause me to suddenly believe they're right and then take the spell off but now I know how believing they're right works they can absolutely do that. I think if I didn't have any memories at all including memories that are like - knowing how to do magic - that probably wouldn't be me but I know petitioners lose some when they die because you don't have the body that was part of your system for recalling them, and I have never been too upset about that. I guess I would trade a lot of money or time to avoid it if that were an option."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I suppose that's a perspective.

Why do you think existing's better than not existing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"That one also seems really obvious. I spent most of eternity not existing, and now I do, and I want to keep doing that." Her voice gets a little bit choked up and she is furious with herself about it.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is all possible existing better than not existing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"For everybody?"

Permalink Mark Unread

She looks slightly confused. "I don't expect them to share my priorities?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"So if somebody dies and gets the door option, and they're like 'wow, both those alternatives sound really unpleasant' and puts mustard on their head and walks into Abbaddon, you're not like oh, no, what a tragedy?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think it would be emotionally healthy to get invested in what other people are doing with themselves. I guess I would - expend resources to cause the person on duty at the door to be someone who is better at the pitch for Hell?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"For Hell, or for the souls?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- I was motivated by thinking about the souls. It is a bonus that it's also good for Hell."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you think an effective salesman would convince them that going to Hell instead was better than ceasing to exist by successfully appealing to the soul's values or by some other process?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I have no idea what effective sales tactics are, I'm an arms and armor enchanter."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, I think effective sales in this situation probably looks like lying about the accommodations, what I'm trying to get at is do you think it's in the soul's best interest by its own lights to keep existing even in Hell and the ones who choose Option Mustard are just confused somehow?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes? I don't think it could possibly be in anyone's interests to stop having any interests at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh! I have resurrection insurance and rich friends and stuff but if I actually thought I'd have to stay there and get tortured a lot and turn into a devil I personally would get a jar of real fancy mustard. Let's find out who's wrong."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - I am not sure how we'd settle who is wrong but - why would you want that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No things about me that I care about would survive turning into a devil. I mean, also it sounds really unpleasant but I would tolerate a lot of unpleasant to come out intact on the other end. 'As a devil' isn't 'intact'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. I think almost everything I care about would survive turning into a devil and I think - probably you care about your, uh, interests, and your style of thinking, and about learning magic, and - you're ambitious, you want to be a god - you'd still be those things -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I want to be a god because I want to promote the flourishing of all sapient beings - I mean, insofar as that's internally consistent anyway - not for kicks. ...okay, not just for kicks. And my style of thinking is very hardcore anti-mind-alteration. And if the devil resulting from all the unpleasantness likes magic and wants to subjugate the population of someplace from an unholy throne and also enjoys pears and classic literature, uh, so what? I'm sure if you look around enough you could find someone who likes pears and classic literature and magic and unholy thrones already out there somewhere and that is not me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. I guess if you are drawing the boundaries of who you are pretty narrowly and most mind alteration is outside of it then it makes sense to think of Hell more like Feeblemind than like boot camp."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Cool, I have successfully accomplished at least some transfer of intuition here. Is it still tragic if I cease to exist? Given that there are lots of things I'd prefer to that, just not going to Hell forever."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think - yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think the obvious implication from that is that -

- anything somebody'd rather stop existing than tolerate is also tragic."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"This is why free will was a mistake, right, making people in the first place for whom - the process of getting something tolerable out of them is unbearable."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Interestingly enough, I'm not sure 'free will was a mistake' is a particularly Evil belief. It's here now, what do you wanna do about it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I...don't think there is any meaningful sense in which I get to decide what to do about it. If I were making my own people I'd try to make people who don't find Hell unbearable over people who do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Currently, however, you would be best served by cultivating an interest in lessening the incidence of fates worse than annihilation. That's a very specific sort of Good but it's Good and some people get there off soup kitchens."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I still don't think a fate can be meaningfully worse than annihilation, even if it makes a person who isn't you that's not worse than you just getting eaten. And we don't actually know if we are right about approximately what it's like to become a devil, maybe no mind control or other transformations that make you think you're not you are involved. Also I don't think you can change how many people go to a nice afterlife, in the long run, because Asmodeus is just going to conquer the nice afterlives."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If I'm going to cease to exist one way or another I'd rather it be clean, do you have the concept of a mercy kill?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess but if mercy killing someone didn't just get their soul to its next destination faster but made them not exist faster in exchange for another person not getting to exist at all that doesn't seem like a very good deal and - there's always the chance that you're wrong that the devil isn't you, there's no way you're wrong about Abaddon eating you -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, I'm planning to ask my dad what turning into a demon's like when I get him back. He's already got little horns. But I suppose devils could be inherently different for some reason. You've met some devils, right, what are they like?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They are like mortals except - closer to the way things were before free will, I think? They don't tend to be fundamentally dissatisfied with life, they have goals and are pursuing them and enjoy successes and regret setbacks and don't - wander off....they seem very sure of themselves..." Shrug. "I don't have a hard time imagining a devil who is me. I - before I fucked everything up I wanted to have a very impressive career enchanting magic items and then make arrangements to do the same thing in Dis. This wouldn't not involve being tortured but just to make me less - wiggly at the core, you know, not in a way that would change who I was or what I wanted..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is that supposed to only work in Hell for some reason or is somebody doing sinister experiments trying to replicate it? Figure out how long somebody has to spend chilling with a Symbol of Pain before they're a model citizen?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think that while formation in Hell involves pain it is not actually just inflicting pain until whatever the problem is self-corrects and is way more elaborate than that. I think it also tends to involve both kinds and degrees of harm that mortal human bodies don't withstand well so if you tried you'd just kill someone instead of improving them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mm-hm."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That said Chelish people seem more okay with hurting living people than the paladins and I think it's not unrelated? If you think that sometimes hurting people is good for them and in the average case it's entirely fine for them then you're not going to tie yourself into knots as much about avoiding it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Seem plausible to me."

Permalink Mark Unread

Sigh. "I hope you're wrong about Hell not being you-preserving."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It could be you-preserving and not me-preserving."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it's almost definitely me-preserving but I still hope you're wrong about it not being you-preserving."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think I'll take that as a compliment."

Permalink Mark Unread

She doesn't really have anything to say to that. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm gonna take a break here, end on a high note. Do you have stuff to write with if you think of things you want to circle back to later?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I do. Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You're welcome." And she knocks to go out. Looks for Fazil.

Permalink Mark Unread

Still talking with the paladins; he stands up and goes to join her. "How'd it go?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think I made some progress. Also apparently Kyeo got his very own headache from Abadar, did you hear about that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I did!" He shakes his head in amazement. "I'm - glad, of course. It seems to have been productive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wanna ask him to do it again, see if Abadar knows why Cheliax has such a good return on investment in making people Evil, I want to know what they're investing. Wanted to run the idea by you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- I don't think we should expect that to work, gods talking to people is very rare - I assume if this were widely known Iomedae would know it, Hell being more her focus than it is His? And She presumably doesn't. Why do you think there is something in particular?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I expect Abadar has more eyes there than She does; they do commerce and do not do any evil-defeating by and large. I did Mahdi's schedule idea, and it's possible that prayer, alone, can make you evil, but that's not actually my understanding, and there's not a lot else there!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, you can ask Kyeo to try and I can also try to talk the paladins into letting me put in a request in Sothis."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Good idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I want to ask him what Abadar explained but I'm sure he doesn't want to repeat it a dozen times, let's fetch everyone -"

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo can be found in his room, looking out the window. He is not sure what all these people are doing here. "Yes?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was curious what Abadar - wanted to explain. If you're comfortable sharing it."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"How to add two and two and get five."

Permalink Mark Unread

He does not look like this makes any sense at all to him.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I assume that is not how it was put to you when you were taught the subject. It's just what it felt like."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see. I don't - quite know how to map that to the way I was taught the subject, but - perhaps I am not meant to."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe he's talking about gains from trade? If he originally thought that if you make a coat you have a coat and it is worth One Coat -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- oh. Oh, yes - that things in the right hands are worth more, that things don't have a value but a value-to-people that depends on whether people want them -" He definitely said that but admittedly he was saying several things at the time and some of them weren't very diplomatic.

Permalink Mark Unread

"That, yes, and - spare time, to make more things in -"

Permalink Mark Unread

- nod. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is that all you wanted to know?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wanted to see if you'd try again. It probably won't work, almost never does in the first place, but if Abadar happened to be able to tell us what is going on in Cheliax to make ordinary people evil enough for Hell it might be useful with Carissa."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can try. He wouldn't have just - already told someone if he knew?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Probably He would have but - maybe not if it wasn't very important because no one could do anything about Cheliax? And - that might be different now."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All right." Kyeo kneels again and attempts to contact the god of two and two making five with this question.

Permalink Mark Unread

Nothing happens.

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"How long does it make sense to keep trying?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know. Probably if He knew and wanted to answer He could have done that immediately."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay, I'm sorry."

Permalink Mark Unread

"'s not your fault at all. Who knows what gods want."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, it was a long shot. I do really want to find out, though, I think if we don't know what specifically Carissa needs to repent of I have to convey an entire working implementation of Good to somebody who thinks that torture is fine as long as it's for a reason like nonconsensually turning people into devils. Today we got as far as 'maybe not if they'd rather not exist instead'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, maybe thinking that ...counts as Evil."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Pharasma doesn't usually hit people for thoughts or you couldn't get criminals into Axis by sending them to monasteries!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think the idea is that over time being in the monastery you not only stop doing bad things but also stop having most of the thought-patterns that go with being a criminal, like noticing opportunities to do crimes or to conceal crimes or to hurt people and get away with it. I don't know if that's the actual mechanism but the assumption isn't that only action matters, but that - shaping actions tends to also shape thoughts."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I feel like it is probably harder to change your mind about Good when they just kidnapped you and are threatening to kill you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It does not seem the optimal circumstance for a sincere change of heart even if she suddenly figured out what a sincere change of heart is."

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo is not sure why this conversation is happening in his room but he's curious about how Carissa's doing so he's not going to object.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I did ask the paladins about the slavery solution and as predicted they were not all right with it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If everyone's going to decide that whether Mahdi's sleeping with her is the determinant of whether she's all right you'd expect it to be in the other direction."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, it's dressed up better that way but it being dressed up better that way is dependent on buy-in from the wives that we are not going to get, here. In theory I could get a place in Shazeun and keep her there but I don't have sixth circle spells and even if I did I'm shit at enchantments, mostly because they skeeve me out... also in Shazeun someone might, like, steal her, or her materials."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Osirion will let us import her if the paladins will let us take her, I looked it up. There's an extra tax and a reporting requirement, but." Shrug.

Permalink Mark Unread

"If we just steal her, do they actively have to stop us."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We are not stealing prisoners from Lastwall."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, even if they don't have to stop us they might do it anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We could - plan a marriage and have some sort of framework in place until the marriage takes place and then she can keep refusing the marriage? This requires her cooperation, I don't know how much we should expect to have it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, probably a lot if the alternative is turning her into a statue and probably not much if the alternative is escaping, what kind of framework do you mean?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, we agree with the paladins that I will marry her, if I have her consent, and that in the meantime I'll keep her supervised and geased and making magic items, with you all checking up that I haven't touched her, and that I am bound to keep doing that even if she refuses the marriage, and see if they'll release her to us under those conditions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I feel like we are just putting the same item in the shop window over and over under different labels and seeing which gets some passersby to buy it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think there is a non-cosmetic difference here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It seems pretty cosmetic but it might - free her up to not be trying to optimize on several axes at once? If she doesn't have to appeal to Mahdi she can do other things with that energy and that - presentation surface area; if she doesn't have the statue thing hanging over her head she can have a little more space to breathe?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can run it by the order."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can go tell Carissa. Unless you want to."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - I think it's a good idea for it to be you. Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You're welcome." He leaves this bunch of weird people in his room and goes to Carissa's cell.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hey."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hey. They have a new i- they have combined their ideas into a slight variant idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- oh?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The slight variant idea is they set everything up like he's going to marry you but then he doesn't actually do it until you say so, which could be never, and he still does the geas thing but his friends check up on him to make sure he isn't touching you. The purple one thought this might give you more space to think or something?"

Permalink Mark Unread

 

" - huh. I ...don't see what would appeal to them about this idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I assume he would probably still take the money you make off magic items and also they don't seem to like slavery and this way they don't have to call it slavery."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I guess? But it gets him strictly less than doing the same thing and calling it marriage, and his friends have to bother checking in. Unless they're just intending to assure the paladins they'll do that and then do it very halfheartedly?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure. You could ask them next time they come by or I could go ask now?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess it'd be interesting to know what they say." She does not sound like the reason for this is that she'll believe it.

Permalink Mark Unread

"They also had me try to talk to Abadar again about why Cheliax can make everybody Evil but he didn't say anything."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's really really rare, for the gods to talk to people at all. I don't - didn't - know anyone it'd happened to."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't even know why it happened to me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe he felt bad, that his clerics couldn't explain it to you and so you didn't know, even though you wanted to... maybe it was strategically important...I don't know what moves the gods." Weak smile. "Pretty convinced that they exist, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm pretty convinced of that at this point."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you for telling me. I do - like that plan, if I could figure out why they're putting it forward and whether they mean it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll go let them know, then?"

Permalink Mark Unread

A flicker of anxiety. "Yeah. Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- do you want me to come with them when they show up to explain?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you'd want to do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure," he says, and he goes looking for the adventurers.

Permalink Mark Unread

They have left his room and are in a courtyard talking about the Worldwound.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Carissa likes the plan but can't figure out why it's on offer and would like to be told."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can't figure out why it's on offer? I mean, we've been - trying to find an alternative to killing her, right, and this seems like it is one."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- yes, but so is just insisting on jumping straight to getting married."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I would prefer to marry someone who is excited about this and feels like they got incredibly lucky to have me interested in them and cries with joy and calls on all their friends who are all jealous and is, you know, shy on our wedding night but not mostly thinking about how favorably it compares to death."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Outside Cheliax I think this is a pretty standard preference."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I hadn't especially thought about it before."

Permalink Mark Unread

This gets some raised eyebrows but no one says anything. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can try to explain to her if you think it'd be helpful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think so, yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay. Who wants to chaperone."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can be there, if that's what you mean."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That is what I mean."

Permalink Mark Unread

So Kyeo accompanies him to the dungeon.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hey."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hey." She should maybe say his name but she's not quite sure she'll get the vowel right and maybe it'd be insulting to mispronounce it. 

Permalink Mark Unread

"Kyeo thought I should maybe explain - why we're trying to work something out so I can take you with me without marrying you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I was confused about why you wanted that, yeah."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I, uh, I want to marry someone who likes me, and who wants to be married to me. It seems really petty to let you die because you don't like me, but, my preference, for a wife, is definitely someone who likes me. So if I can keep track of you and marry some other person who likes me, then you don't die and I get what I want here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Kyeo said you were going to arrange to have your friends come by and say you hadn't touched me. Is that - the paladins insisting, or -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I would hope they would insist but we haven't run this by them yet at all. But, uh, you don't have to be going for Good to think you shouldn't rape people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"But to - go out of your way to arrange inconveniencing other people to check and, what, report you if you did -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"....yes, that'd be the idea, that they'd take you away and report it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess it seems like if you don't want to rape people no one's going to make you, and you don't gain anything additionally by arranging for people to report you if you do? And I don't see why you'd do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...sometimes people are doing their best, but they're not perfect, and sometimes their judgment might slip, and if they know there'll be consequences then that's much less likely, so they set up the consequences sober in order to protect against mistakes they might make when they're drunk except I am not exclusively talking about literal intoxication. And from the inside it feels really unlikely that my judgment would slip on this, actually, but in my reference class it often does, and people often end up justifying it to themselves, so I shouldn't assume that feeling from the inside like I wouldn't is very much information."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think mostly people rape people because they want to not by mistake."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I, uh, no offense but I think your opinions about how people work are probably wrong most of the time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think that the way Osirians think about sex is kind of insane. But I'm - not complaining. If this is what you want. I - appreciate it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. And this way you can keep working on whether you want to be Asmodean, right, and if you decide on something and we can let you go you're not stuck."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- yeah. Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We don't have it all worked out yet. But I'll see what I can do."

Permalink Mark Unread

(Kyeo is mostly daydreaming about Sarham again and not paying very much attention, but probably if anything he's supposed to chaperone about occurs it will be conspicuous.)

Permalink Mark Unread

Mahdi seems satisfied with this and is ready to head out.

Permalink Mark Unread

Kyeo follows him when the door opens, waving at Carissa.

Permalink Mark Unread

She is very confused but it - feels a little easier to breathe.

Permalink Mark Unread

At this happy news they can go run it by paladins, where are some authoritative-looking paladins?

Permalink Mark Unread

Isavel is in a meeting but can see them that evening.

Permalink Mark Unread

Where the concept can be laid out. "I think it's a little legally awkward - like, does she need to be a slave on paper to be in the household without being married, or is there some intermediate category for, uh, captive fiancées -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Osirion has guardianship but an unrelated man can't be an unmarried woman's guardian."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can't really - release her into slavery."

Permalink Mark Unread

"But you can kill her?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am also not actively intending to kill her! It'd be different if we did need the handcuffs for something - we don't, yet -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"But if you do it might be suddenly, right? - can he adopt her."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There's not a mechanism other than guardianship -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If he was elsewise married then could he be her guardian, is it specifically an unmarried man who can't?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know offhand."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's the law in Absalom, we can shop around for jurisdictions a bit and she can make me some pearls of power to make up for it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's unmarried women, right, if we're letting her do magic she could Alter Self and I could marry her if we can get in and out of a temple of Nocticula without my great-aunt noticing and then you can still marry her later if desired because Nocticula's cool with divorce but I don't see how that helps anything."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think a man unrelated to the husband can be the guardian of a married woman either."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Spellcaster exceptionalism doesn't help?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure! She could get declared independent easily enough - this is not really a situation we're set up for -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Us either." Tiredly. "It has been constructive for the conversations about how hard it will be to fix Cheliax after we free it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't even know what you have to fix! I mean, there's lots of things you have to fix, but unless showing up to Asmodean church and executions and watching them is not just non-Good but also actively Evil I have no idea what's going on!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It might be the reporting people to be tortured to death for heresy? I'm hoping it's that. That and the active discouragement from doing things altruistically. But - I don't know. It doesn't quite add up. She might be lying to us about there not being anything worse though it admittedly doesn't seem like she has much reason to do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think there can be enough heretics for everybody to take even partial credit for one."

Permalink Mark Unread

Isavel scowls at the wall. "They also - make the children beat each other, and hurt each other in sports..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is making children beat each other worse than hitting them? I don't think hitting kids is understood to be damnably Evil."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know. One theory is that lots of things are a little Evil but most people also do some Good, just incidentally, so it's mostly a wash, and if you just blot out all the Good that doesn't get you Neutral it gets you Evil."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I... guess I wouldn't be floored if that were the explanation."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anyway. If we find some legal framework that's not technically slavery you'll sign off?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'd need to also be very very sure it's adequate for the security considerations involved, and I'd need to pray on it. But - yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I nominate one of the Lawfuls to look through reams of Osirian law about it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll look. And at Absalom, in case it's workable there. It is definitely going to be workable in Katapesh, so maybe that can be a backup plan?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It'd be really annoying to have to stash her in Katapesh but I guess I'd make it work."

Permalink Mark Unread

Sigh. "Thank you. Good luck."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks."

Permalink Mark Unread

He gets to work on researching that, and also sends the church in Sothis an inquiry about whether Abadar has any information about the internal operations of Cheliax.

Permalink Mark Unread

Belmarniss keeps visiting Carissa. "They're having some awkwardness about trying to find a legal framework under which Mahdi can keep you as an affianced captive," she says. "There's probably something but something might be stowing you in Katapesh. But, like, I assume you'd still rather just walk out of here safely neutral or better and do whatever you want, so I can keep trying to explain, if you think that might help."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it might help. ...why are you doing it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"What's your guess?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You will feel very accomplished and good about yourself and have bragging rights with your friends."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, only if I succeed. D'you think that's all of it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You - get Good points? But - that seems objectively less useful than your friend getting a very valuable slave, you could donate some of the money and get the Good points anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mahdi is a good Osirian and will not randomly give me money to drop in Shelyn's collection bucket unless I do something to earn it off him."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is that why? If Mahdi were himself Good and he was like "I will give all the money she makes to orphanages" would you go, well, that's more Good than convincing her to be Good, I guess that's that settled then..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sure some people game it that way and I hope that works out for them but nah, indiscriminately feeding people into a system designed to produce homogenized alignment glop is largely Hell's bag."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - okay."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I make jokes about Good points too and Pharasma's not exactly systematically discouraging the outlook with clearly written pamphlets. But the point - buried a few miles to the left of where Pharasma thinks it is, like how magnetic north isn't the geographic pole - the point's about trying to buy some people-not-being-harmed, with whatever you've got, and you don't in that sense 'got' random other people's well-being. Sacrificing third parties to save other third parties is sort of like committing burglary to enable a greater act of Law, like, you could imagine winding up in that situation but you should not go around thinking 'what about that place, is that one positively Lawful in expectation if I go down the chimney and make off with the silver and fund streetlights to deter future thieves'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think I have an account of why you shouldn't do that except it probably wouldn't work."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Are you just Lawful 'cause you want to go to Hell, then?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I - think the rule of law is important and I think demons are terrible and I don't think everyone just doing whatever they feel like will make anything valuable happen."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why's rule of law important?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It is a stupid waste of resources if random people have to be worrying about self-defense all the time instead of expecting they can sell things and the things won't get stolen and they can take money to the bank and not get mugged and they can go out drinking and not get raped and if something does happen the stuff will be gotten back and the responsible party will be prevented from ever doing it again."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Drow tell each other that the spirit of competition engendered by people murdering each other all the time makes us stronger and more self-reliant and saves effort on policing and jailing the population. How would you evaluate who's wasting resources?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, I don't think you should jail people, that does sound like a waste of resources, you should execute them. Some places sell them as slaves and that's also valid. I...wouldn't expect that people murdering each other all the time does make them stronger and self-reliant, I'd expect that it just interferes with them doing anything with their lives that isn't about avoiding murder. I guess if there were more impressive drow businesspeople and wizards than you'd expect from their numbers that'd make me reconsider whether they're just wasting their time. Also the Abyss is bad though, and the Maelstrom and Elysium don't sound great either, so I'd still want to be Lawful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure what you'd expect from the numbers. We do throw lots of wizards, though. Lots of families don't let their daughters live if they can't pick up a caster level in something. You're kind of bouncing between arguments. Is rule of law important or does it just get you the best afterlives?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it's important in this life but even if it weren't it vastly improves the next one. Threatening people with death isn't a very good way to get them to learn magic but I guess killing them is a good way to get high wizards per living person. It seems kind of wasteful, though, they might be perfectly fine at some other thing. I guess if you have no need for any work that isn't high-intelligence."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Those families'll usually put up with a cleric too. Or a sorcerer, we have more of those too. And then you'll have more talented grandchildren, goes the theory." Shrug.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It seems like it would be grandchild-maximizing to not kill any of your children. Are...reproductive opportunities very limited?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Food is. We mostly eat mushrooms. I think drow are so violent mostly so that if a farm that feeds twenty fails, forty people can be stew over it the next morning."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess that makes sense. Well, I would rather live in a lawful society even if I level slower because I can have more goals that aren't about avoiding getting murdered, or murdering people, and that's worth more to me than levelling faster, but I can see why you'd take the other side of that trade."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not particularly pro-chaos, that's just what I grew up with. Why do you like... having goals?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know how to answer that. I can't see the whole world, or the large effects of anything, but I can - contextualize my tiny bits of things and think about how they could go better and then do that and it's motivating."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm just trying to imagine formulating goals when I believed the ultimate point of everything was to drop them whenever this was convenient to another entity who declined to list his high-level priorities besides the part where he's keen on subjugating folks."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's not very hard. I think 'I'd like a headband' and then I save up for one."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Slaves have goals."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Slaves usually don't have a goal 'turn into a member of a slave species and stay that way forever'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The goal is more like 'given that that is going to happen, land on your feet'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know why you think Asmodeus was disposed to hand out accurate propaganda on that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I would expect it to be to his advantage for people who are trying to make themselves useful in Hell to know how to do that, and also I've talked to devils, I've talked to people who've been to the great market in Dis, I know how Hell works and I know there is a place in it for the skills I wanted to have and the things I wanted to do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, I mean on it being inevitable."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. He might lie about that. But we seem to all agree that I am Evil and that almost everyone in Cheliax is even if it's very mysterious why."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah but you're reasoning a little circularly, I think? You're evil for mysterious reasons, you can probably still Atone in the right headspace, only you seem impaired in getting in the right headspace in part because of your psychological architecture all built around it being inevitable, only why bother, because you're already evil for mysterious reasons."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - that's fair. I think I can probably work out how to go to Axis if I want to. I might want to. It does sound comfy. I expect Asmodeus to conquer everything eventually. Using only facts about the world that the paladins and I both agree on, He is one of the strongest gods and probably the strongest goal-oriented one, the other gods wanted to stop Him from taking Cheliax but couldn't, and He's considerably stronger now that He has it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Fazil's been to Axis and talks it up real good for a guy aimed at Heaven, if that would help, I don't know if it does. You said a while ago there was a case to be made for not fucking with Axis, or something, didn't you, that seemed specific to Axis but that's where you'd aim, sounds like. It might be that the other gods could have stopped him but only at costs or risks they considered too much? Especially risks, this was shortly after Foresight got wrecked and they may have had lots of ideas that would or would not have worked but they couldn't tell and were regrouping, acting conservatively to consolidate what they had instead of gambling, again, right after Aroden lost on his sure thing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe. But you don't see them taking those risks today, either. 

- I guess you do see Iomedae personally authorizing my kidnapping and - whatever plan there is, there's some plan -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I haven't been looped in on one but that could be, like, anti-chaos precautions, or racism, or whatever."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think paladins only work with paladins. It was a big to-do to bring Fazil, who is also lawful good, in."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, I'm surprised Hagan and I were allowed in, even if Mahdi got a pass due to being theoretically willing to marry you. We're very reliable people for agents of chaos though."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

 

 

"Why - did people propose the marriage - if not because that is the cover Good people need when they want to rape people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh, the decisionmakers are all Lawful and do not want to illegally hold you under geases, and the nice way they have of legally holding you captive is marrying you and the mean way is declaring you a slave but the second thing is a no go for paladins but they don't have a policy about culturally questionable marriages. And now they're figuring out some hacky thing that satisfies their consciences. If I had somehow as a solo operation or with just Hagan acquired custody of you under the same strategic conditions otherwise, I'd - well, I can't cast a geas, Mahdi doesn't outlevel me but he does outcircle me, but supposing I had a Staff of Geas that recharged off cantrips and bits of string. I'd skip the hacky legal rigmarole and the consultation of policy and just be like 'well we have here somebody who cannot walk free lest she supply intelligence to her dread master but she wants to churn out items, let's get a storefront in Absalom and not get bogged down in labels'."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

 

"Well. I appreciate them trying to figure something out.

 

I figured -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think if Good people want to rape people they either, like, don't, or they play pretend about it with somebody, or they dump a lot of gold on a church and find themselves at the geographic north pole."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mahdi seemed to be working under a model where it sometimes just happened, like the flu."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, he's not Good, and if he wanted to be... he could dump a lot of gold on a church. But I think the reason Osirians are like that is they have, like, a thing that can't be allowed to happen - infanticide and abortion are both Evil enough to damn you if you never compensate for them, so you have to make sure all the babies appear where babies belong, and you can make a rule against fucking in baby-unfriendly situations but that... doesn't work well, even in a largely lawful neutral population, because of, like, people who get off on rape, and stupid teenagers and drunk people. And so they make a rule that not only can't you fuck, you can't go off unsupervised. Because even if you are a rapist or a stupid teenager or drunk, and have friends who are like you, it's an inconvenience, you have to plan not just a rape but a gang rape, you have to drink with voyeurs or make friends with teenagers who won't suddenly have pangs of better judgment. And on top of being an inconvenience it gets to be mortifying to break the rule, because why would you do that? As long as you plan nothing untoward you can bring a chaperone. They don't have to listen, they just have to be able to see you, whisper if you must. Anybody whining about how they can't hang out alone in private with their buddy of the opposite sex is suspicious. Anybody asserting that they definitely have the strength of character not to need this silly rule is suspicious. Anyone who requires reminders instead of just automatically going yikes about forbidden privacy is suspicious. So they - go yikes, and what you see is the yikes."

Permalink Mark Unread

 

"That is a lot of work to put into just not going to Hell. I'm tempted to assert we're not all that bad but - we argued that already, didn't we."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's less work when everyone's doing it. All the alignments are less work when everyone's doing them. - maybe except, uh, chaotic neutral, that one in particular might benefit from a contrastive background."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't remotely wish I'd been born in Osirion. If Abadar were really great His country would be - a place people wanted to live."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I respect that they're doing empiricism about how to accomplish their goal of making it easy for everyone to get to Axis. And I kind of like that most people you meet have taken an economics class. But yeah no it's not how I'd design a country and I wouldn't even want to go there if I weren't a caster and exempt from some annoying sexism."

Permalink Mark Unread

Deep breath. "Would someone be willing to scry someone in Axis for me? Ideally not someone where you had ten thousand choices you could comb through - Mahdi's grandfather, say -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ooh, ask Mahdi, he gets a great look on his face when people ask him to scry things, he hates it. - or ask one of the local wizards who don't hate it if that doesn't sound as amusing to you as it does to me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't have a lot of latitude to inconvenience people. Or - if I do, that's confusing -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think if I were somehow in this situation I would find Mahdi's reaction to being asked to do something exasperating but reasonable when he has the opportunity to suggest getting someone else to do it instead very informative but if the information isn't worth the downside risk to you that's your call."

Permalink Mark Unread

- nod. "I'll ask."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What are you hoping to learn from watching Mahdi's grandfather in Axis?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Whether it's really - using more of people. Whether Asmodeus would want to have it keep existing, if He does win."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can you say more about what you mean by using - amounts of people?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. So let's say you hire someone to, I don't know, carry firewood. You value about them that they can carry firewood. You don't care whether they are composing poetry in their head while they carry firewood, you don't care whether they are gossiping with each other, you don't care whether they're studying magic on the side.

And if you're a god, and the only use you have for people is carrying firewood, they probably won't get to do any of those other things, because it's kind of wasteful, to let them spend energy on things you don't value. So belonging to a god who only wanted people for their firewood-carrying would be very bad.

A god who wants people to run a shop is better than that, because running a shop requires lots of skills, even if you get narrowed down to only your shoprunning that's still lots of you left. A god who wants people to befriend mortals in Cheliax and teach them magic and persuade them to achieve the god's goals wants most of you, it's not narrowing much at all to become about that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. I don't know that all outer-planes-mediated species transitions are actually god-mediated, like, can you see Desna orchestrating that somebody become an lillend because she's starved for a good dance tune - how does that factor in?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are definitely things that can happen that don't involve anyone else valuing your existence but I guess I figure you tend to get killed, if you go down that route, because no one else valuing your existence is a very vulnerable situation to be in."

Permalink Mark Unread

"On what timescale? Do you think azatas are dropping like flies or just that they'll get wrecked when Asmodeus gets around to it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think they don't live forever. Five thousand years sounds like a long time to me now but that's because I'm human and not good at thinking about large scale things. Also they'll get destroyed when Asmodeus gets around to it, or when the Abyss gets around to it, or when people from other worlds get around to it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Devils do sometimes die."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Being valuable to someone isn't a guarantee of safety. There aren't guarantees of safety. Just improved odds."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure that being useful to someone - and therefore also a target for their enemies, a viable candidate for dangerous missions, etcetera - is actually safer over long time scales than being irrelevant and out of the way."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hmmm. I guess there's no way to know, really. Ideally you are not valuable in a way where people want to risk you on dangerous missions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is that why you do enchanting?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Valuable to almost everybody, not generally dangerous if you're not stupid."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess in this case it'll let you fund your prison sentence. Though if you were a conventional fireball maybe scrolls'd cover it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe, but it'd pay you less well, right, so people'd be less inclined to exert themselves to make it happen."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I think we'd still try but it'd be less of a no-brainer that there's a lot of money waiting for someone clever to grab it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. You have to be very valuable if you want people to put in effort to keep you alive. I." Sigh. "I was trying to do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, there are lots of irrelevant out of the way people who weren't kidnapped by paladins, although I guess the specific event of having Kyeo land on you could have happened to anybody."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I try not to be so relevant I am kidnappable on the merits but - this wasn't very fair."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sorry."

Permalink Mark Unread

Carissa looks like this is a confusing claim but not in a way where she has much to say about it.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not like it's my fault or anything, just it sucks."

Permalink Mark Unread

She is still confused but tries to show it less. "Thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm out of prepared remarks for now, you have any questions?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't."

Permalink Mark Unread

So Belmarniss leaves.

Permalink Mark Unread

"How'd it go?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's sort of hard to tell! Sometimes it seems like there's progress, but it tends not to keep feeling that way and she definitely hasn't gasped in amazement as all her corrupted epistemics fell from her mind like a broken enchantment in one fell swoop, y'know. I think it'll help if we can get her more space." Shrug.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess that makes sense. It - feels very obvious, from the outside. But I guess most people are very attached to their politics whatever those happen to be."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess. Kyeo doesn't seem to have this problem! But Kyeo got a divine revelation about it - of course, he requested one, I don't know if she's tried that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Iomedae probably can't reach her, right, I don't know if Abadar would have anything useful to say, He's kind of friendly with Asmodeus anyway, right -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Abadar is allied with all of the Lawful gods for the same reasons countries have pacts with all their neighbors, if you're clear where each other stand you're much less likely to accidentally have a fight."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. But also - there's nothing inherently awful to him about Asmodeus, is there, Cheliax is a rich country."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't really know."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess if you make people value awful things they can be rich in awful things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I think - there's probably a way to put in in Abadaran terms but I don't know what it is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And obviously it wouldn't be good for Osirion to be a target for Cheliax."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's one advantage of neutrality, yes. Low-priority target all around."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think if Abadar is right then someday Osirion will be richer and more powerful than Cheliax. But it doesn't make sense to pick a fight before then."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well. Let's get the girl her legal arrangement."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm working on it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is it looking doable?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I haven't heard back from anyone yet but I can't see why it wouldn't be doable in Absalom and maybe it could also be made to work in Sothis."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Absalom's neat. I'm planning to stash my parents there when I get 'em back."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It would be frustrating to have to burn a Teleport every time I wanted to check on her but I'll probably want to visit Absalom regularly anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And you'll have to give us a ride there regularly. Sounds like a win all around."

Permalink Mark Unread

"She was very offended, that you'd check if she was all right. - I still think you should, obviously."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wonder why - I could see exasperated, but offended?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think she thought if I was a decent person I wouldn't need you to check, and if I were a strategic person I wouldn't want you to? It was a bit hard to tell."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You could ask."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Probably should." Sigh.

Permalink Mark Unread

"You don't like her?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"She's hot, which isn't very helpful to think about, and she's smart, which would suit her better if she wasn't evil."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wish we knew why she was evil! She's disposed to evil but that by itself - I'm just going in circles there, I should drop it till I have a stunning insight -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think probably we should assume that prayer to Asmodeus counts for more than prayer to demon lords, on the alignment axis."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Guess so." Sigh.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think tomorrow I'm going to go to Absalom, fire paperwork, maybe pick up Kyeo a present."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Awwww, that's a good idea. I think he's really bored. You should get him - a castles set. or a magic hamster if those are still dirt cheap..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's magic about the hamsters?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Zana Armadi, a transmuter in Absalom who I am vaguely acquainted with, came up with the idea of little pets that, at a command word, turn to stone, so you can take care of them on your schedule not theirs. Big upfront effort but the idea was that it'd breed true. It didn't breed quite true, though - the next generation did have the ability to turn to stone at a command word, but it was a different command word for each one, and no way to tell what it was. So the guy had a thousand hamsters that were totally normal unless you happened to somehow guess, and he was giving them away to anyone who'd take one."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh! Were the command words in fact words, or just - series of sounds -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Seem to be the first thing the creature heard, which isn't at birth but a couple of days later. For subsequent batches he has apprentices take shifts chanting the correct word, and they all come out all right. I know some people nailed theirs down by reading the dictionary but some didn't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I have no idea if Kyeo would like one but what a charming concept."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Isn't it? Lots of people want a pet, but, you know, in the evenings, not all the time."

Permalink Mark Unread

Fy hisses.

"I want you all the time," he assures her.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, but you only have to feed her every couple of weeks!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"And if that's how often one wants to feed their pet they should get a snake not a hamster."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess that's fair."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Who wants to come to Absalom with me tomorrow."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You going to be there all day? I'll come if not."